Coal-fired power plants in SE Michigan??

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

OK, my turn to ask a question.

 

I'm searching the web, having a helluva time finding these things. Anyone know where I can track down a list of locations of coal-fired power plants in the Detroit area? Some of them might not be owned by DTE, which might complicate the search a bit.

 

Thanks...

[John Ranalletta]

Does this help?

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Thanks; that looks pretty comprehensive and recently updated, but unfortunately doesn't show what I expected. I'm looking at air pollution data that suggests the existence of a coal combustion source in a northeasterly direction from downtown Detroit, toward Grosse Pointe. Which is weird, cuz that's a densely populated suburb, where a coal-burning power plant would seem out of place.

 

:confused:

[Nice n Easy Rider]

Thanks; that looks pretty comprehensive and recently updated, but unfortunately doesn't show what I expected. I'm looking at air pollution data that suggests the existence of a coal combustion source in a northeasterly direction from downtown Detroit, toward Grosse Pointe. Which is weird, cuz that's a densely populated suburb, where a coal-burning power plant would seem out of place.

 

:confused:

 

Mitch,

 

Any university or colleges in that area? They often have their own power plants and those are often coal-burning.

[David]

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Category:Existing_coal_plants_in_Michigan

[David]

Oops--same link as John's.

[pokorskij]

Don't know if this helps, but the Greater Detroit Resource Recovery Plant is a I-75 and I-94 with the prevailing winds would take whatever comes out of the plant towards the direction you are asking about.

 

It is not coal fired, uses gas and burns solid waste.

[John Ranalletta]

Could it be your source point might be a foundry or steel mill rather than coal-fired boiler?

 

Ever been to Gary, IN?

[motoguy128]

Any chance the source could be comming from across the river in Canada?

 

I noticed that privately owned power plants under 50MW are not listed. My place of work has a coal fire boiler for steam and power production isn't listed in Iowa.

 

Could a coal trans-loading facility (ship to rail ot truck) operation show similar test results?

 

You might try contacting the state DNR/environmental office in that area and ask what air emmission sources are in that area.

[JohnnyJ]

Any facility that has an industrial size boiler could mimic the fallout similar to a coal burner. I'm an operator at a power plant that burns natural gas or oil. We routinely run steam lances into an operating boiler to remove soot deposits from the heat transfer surfaces. We are in the heart of a small city on the coast. We have had to clean lots of boats and cars at times when the process was delayed too long or was done improperly.

 

We responded to a complaint onetime outside our usual fallout zone. The debris on the car in question was not typical of what we usually see. It was later determined the fallout was from a nearby cremation facility.

 

 

JohnnyJ

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Any chance the source could be comming from across the river in Canada?

 

Not likely, as that's pretty far away and has a lot of time/space to dilute on the way over. It would have to be a massive source; more likely it's modest or small, and very close.

 

I noticed that privately owned power plants under 50MW are not listed. My place of work has a coal fire boiler for steam and power production isn't listed in Iowa.

 

On Sourcewatch, no. But I did find this list, which is just about guaranteed to list the culprit sources. It even calls out the electrical capacity, and even the type of coal they burn there. It only lists by county, so it'll take a bit more sleuthing to figure out their exact locations.

 

Could a coal trans-loading facility (ship to rail ot truck) operation show similar test results?

 

Nope, the pollution measurements are caused by coal combustion, not simple coal fragmentation/dust.

 

Any facility that has an industrial size boiler could mimic the fallout similar to a coal burner. I'm an operator at a power plant that burns natural gas or oil. We routinely run steam lances into an operating boiler to remove soot deposits from the heat transfer surfaces. We are in the heart of a small city on the coast. We have had to clean lots of boats and cars at times when the process was delayed too long or was done improperly.

 

The pollution data has a very particular chemical composition that uniquely identifies it as coming from coal combustion. Oil refineries, steel mills, cement plants, waste incinerators and other industrial facilities all have their own unique pollution signatures, too. The atmosphere mixes the output of all these sources, but with the right analytical tools, it's possible to identify which sources are contributing how much to the mix. So when you stand in downtown Detroit with the wind blowing from the NE and the air pollution measurement analysis says "I smell coal combustion," there's almost certainly some kinda coal-burning power plant off in that direction.

[motoguy128]

Any facility that has an industrial size boiler could mimic the fallout similar to a coal burner. I'm an operator at a power plant that burns natural gas or oil. We routinely run steam lances into an operating boiler to remove soot deposits from the heat transfer surfaces. We are in the heart of a small city on the coast. We have had to clean lots of boats and cars at times when the process was delayed too long or was done improperly.

 

We responded to a complaint onetime outside our usual fallout zone. The debris on the car in question was not typical of what we usually see. It was later determined the fallout was from a nearby cremation facility.

 

 

JohnnyJ

 

I have a question. Do your gas boilers have a honeycomb catalyst on the "exhaust". If you didn't clean the soot out of the boiler, could it build-up in the catalyst or even the economizers and start an internal fire if you didn't clean it out???

 

 

Gee Mitch, looks like there are all sort of sources of carbon particulate. I suppsoe 1 difference with a CFB, would be the level of sulfur compounds in the flue gasses even with a low sulfur coal thats required to be run in older boilers without scrubbers.

[pokorskij]

At times certain public schools on the East side of Detroit emit very dark smoke when they fire up their heating system. I can't tell you if they are using coal or what, but at times it appears to be fire, but as you get closer it is just a school smoke stack.

 

These are ideas I had, but don't seem to fit after your additional information.

 

Detroit Public Lighting has a power plant near the Ambassador Bridge but I don't think they have used coal in a while. Oil and gas capable boilers.

 

There is a distillery/brewery on the Canada side across the river from the East side of Detroit. Many times the smell is quite strong, but again this doesn't fit your pollution print.

 

Please post your findings once identified.

[motoguy128]

How can you tell the difference between a CFB and a oil fire boiler in terms of particulate emmissions? Just wondering.

[pokorskij]

A couple of other ideas,

 

There is a Jeep assembly plant and some other smaller plants in the area, most are closed down.

 

There are a number of apartment buildings along the river front that are older. Could they have heating plants that would cause this?

 

Is this current pollution? As there was an Edison Plant, Seven Sisters, and Two Brothers, but that has been closed and torn down, 1996.

 

Finally, have you taken a look using Google maps satellite view zoomed in to maybe identify the source.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

How can you tell the difference between a CFB and a oil fire boiler in terms of particulate emmissions? Just wondering.

 

There are signature metallic elements that differ between the two sources. For oil-fired combustion exhaust, vanadium and nickel are present in a certain ratio, whereas for coal-fired combustion exhaust, selenium and some other stuff show up instead.

 

Is this current pollution? As there was an Edison Plant, Seven Sisters, and Two Brothers, but that has been closed and torn down, 1996.

 

Yep, this stuff is from within the past five years.

[tallman]

Probably a coal powered UFO.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Probably a coal powered UFO.

 

UFO = Unidentified Fiery Object. Yup, pretty much.

[pokorskij]

Everyone (5 different people) who lives in the area guess school buildings as the source under the time frame.

 

On did guess Zug Island, you can take a look at the on a map, but that is downriver from where you indicate, but it could be a possibility I guess.

[pokorskij]

Freighters on the Detroit River and Lake St. Clair?

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Freighters on the Detroit River and Lake St. Clair?

 

Are there any burning coal these days? I thought they were almost entirely diesel, except for the occasional novelty boat.

[pokorskij]

Right you are!

 

The ST Crapo, inactive since 1996, was built to haul cement for Huron Cement Co. back in 1927 and was the second ship of that design, the first being the John G Boardman of the same company. The Crapo was the last coal burning freighter on the Great Lakes.

[JohnnyJ]

Any facility that has an industrial size boiler could mimic the fallout similar to a coal burner. I'm an operator at a power plant that burns natural gas or oil. We routinely run steam lances into an operating boiler to remove soot deposits from the heat transfer surfaces. We are in the heart of a small city on the coast. We have had to clean lots of boats and cars at times when the process was delayed too long or was done improperly.

 

We responded to a complaint onetime outside our usual fallout zone. The debris on the car in question was not typical of what we usually see. It was later determined the fallout was from a nearby cremation facility.

 

 

JohnnyJ

 

I have a question. Do your gas boilers have a honeycomb catalyst on the "exhaust". If you didn't clean the soot out of the boiler, could it build-up in the catalyst or even the economizers and start an internal fire if you didn't clean it out???

 

We don’t have exhaust catalysts. When we burned oil (which we no longer do) we injected a special chemical that helped mitigate high temperature fouling and corrosion that was caused by the sulfur in the fuel. We blew soot (steam lances) twice daily and did the occasional acid wash. We would sometimes have to manually knock-off clinkers that would accumulate at the burner front (24 individual burners on four separate units). We have strict NOX, CO and Particulate limits that are controlled primarily by flue-gas recirculation, over-fired air ports (stretches the combustion zone), and closely monitored air/fuel ratio controllers. There are serious ramifications if we exceed limits.

 

JohnnyJ

[motoguy128]

Any facility that has an industrial size boiler could mimic the fallout similar to a coal burner. I'm an operator at a power plant that burns natural gas or oil. We routinely run steam lances into an operating boiler to remove soot deposits from the heat transfer surfaces. We are in the heart of a small city on the coast. We have had to clean lots of boats and cars at times when the process was delayed too long or was done improperly.

 

We responded to a complaint onetime outside our usual fallout zone. The debris on the car in question was not typical of what we usually see. It was later determined the fallout was from a nearby cremation facility.

 

 

JohnnyJ

 

I have a question. Do your gas boilers have a honeycomb catalyst on the "exhaust". If you didn't clean the soot out of the boiler, could it build-up in the catalyst or even the economizers and start an internal fire if you didn't clean it out???

 

We don’t have exhaust catalysts. When we burned oil (which we no longer do) we injected a special chemical that helped mitigate high temperature fouling and corrosion that was caused by the sulfur in the fuel. We blew soot (steam lances) twice daily and did the occasional acid wash. We would sometimes have to manually knock-off clinkers that would accumulate at the burner front (24 individual burners on four separate units). We have strict NOX, CO and Particulate limits that are controlled primarily by flue-gas recirculation, over-fired air ports (stretches the combustion zone), and closely monitored air/fuel ratio controllers. There are serious ramifications if we exceed limits.

 

JohnnyJ

 

Our gas turbine is strictly controlled using an very common brand of turbine and control system, but we have auxillary duct burners that are controlled with our own DCS system. The stack is monitored closely, but I wouldn't be suprised if the duct burner a/f control response is a little slow and we "lean" on the catalist too much to stay in limits and are generating a lot of soot. Before it caught fire, we were swinging the boiler to match plant steam demand.

 

Yes, the DNR doesn't like when you exceed limits. On a matter unrelated to the boilers, we were recently fined $1MM by the DNR. It was a record fine in Iowa. Not the type of record you want. They don't mess around. The funny thing, is that the penalty was for violating the production rates set in our permits, not for "actual" pollution. It's not like were were dumping or emitting toxic waste. But that type of trivial detail isn't really important.

 

 

I hope you find your source Mitch. Do you win a prize if you find it???

[philbytx]

The name probably didn't help its longevity much either

[John Ranalletta]

Were the fluidized bed units ever successfully implemented? My last experience goes back to the 80's. We had a coal-fired steam boiler at our soybean extraction plant. As I recall, they were to replace it with one of these units.

[motoguy128]

Were the fluidized bed units ever successfully implemented? My last experience goes back to the 80's. We had a coal-fired steam boiler at our soybean extraction plant. As I recall, they were to replace it with one of these units.

 

Yes, we have one. I believe on advantage is that you can burn a mix of "spent" coal and new coal (not sure that's the right terms). With a scrubber, you can burn the less expensive coal with higher sulfur content and well as other lower quality coals.

 

It's funny, but the thing reminds me of a giant bagless vacuumm cleaner... but with a 150' tall cyclone.