Steve Larsen RT-P Article

[moshe_levy]

Anyone catch Steve's article on RT-P use by Arizona Highway Patrol in the February MCN? Very, very interesting breakdown of the pros and cons (and costs) of the R1150RT-P and the 1200 version as well. The cops seem much, much happier with the 1200, which has lower costs per mile so far in addition to functional superiority.

 

This series of articles from Steve has really illuminated what police think is important in their motorcycles, and it's been one of the most interesting topics I've read on in a long time. From the tone of Steve's article, it seems as though BMW's got a few strengths and more than a few strikes against it as the departments upcoming comparisons with the new Honda ST1300 police variants approaches.

 

Anybody else read this?

 

-MKL

[T__]

MKL, yes that was a very informative article.. I like their positive thought on the BMW ABS brakes & their dislike of the older BMW Servo brakes.. From the article it also seems the BMW warranty isn’t any friendlier to the police than the regular customer..

 

The article also seems to paint the 1200RT as a much better police bike than the 1150RT was..

 

Interesting reading for anyone that cares to.. Unfortunately it doesn’t paint BMW as a very caring or understanding motor company..

 

Twisty

 

[bmwsit]

When my department went to BMW's (I am not a motor office, have just talked to buddies on the detail) they had a heck of a time with the 1150RTP's and dependability and BMW standing behind the bikes. It supposedly got to the point that it was threatened to park the bikes along side the road and very publicly put them up for sale due to poor dependability and support from BMW. This apparently caught someone's attention and people started playing nice again. It was determined alot of the issues that were being experienced were due to poor maintenance from the local shop and not the product itself or they way the bikes were ridden. A change of fuel supposedly also helped.

 

 

[Uncle Beemer]

Anyone catch Steve's article on RT-P use by Arizona Highway Patrol in the February MCN? Very, very interesting breakdown of the pros and cons (and costs) of the R1150RT-P and the 1200 version as well. The cops seem much, much happier with the 1200, which has lower costs per mile so far in addition to functional superiority.

 

This series of articles from Steve has really illuminated what police think is important in their motorcycles, and it's been one of the most interesting topics I've read on in a long time. From the tone of Steve's article, it seems as though BMW's got a few strengths and more than a few strikes against it as the departments upcoming comparisons with the new Honda ST1300 police variants approaches.

 

Anybody else read this?

 

-MKL

Moshe,Is that the January or February issue that you speak of?

[T__]

Uncle Beemer, until MKL gets here--that article is in the February issue..

 

Twisty

 

[moshe_levy]

I think a big issue was their being allowed to have a full time tech department in-house with the old Kawis, whereas BMW demanded their dealers do the work. I can see it from both sides. After all, it seems all the cops where enamored with the Kawasakis, yet that brand abandoned the market entirely. Could be because by the time you are done satisfying their endless needs and bending over backwards, there's simply no profit left.

 

That said, the new Honda is going to kick serious butt in the reliability and service cost issues compared to BMW, and Honda may be a little less rigid to deal with. We'll see...

 

-MKL

[Uncle Beemer]

Uncle Beemer, until MKL gets here--that article is in the February issue..

 

Twisty

I was curious because I have not received my February issue. Moshe probably gets an early issue. Perks, I guess.

[Roadwolf]

That said, the new Honda is going to kick serious butt in the reliability and service cost issues compared to BMW

 

I wouldn't be so sure about that statement... I had an ST1300 (04 ABS) and of all my bikes to date, it was the most problematic (Coolant leak(s) that could not be fixed and thermostat issues). Plus, while the valve checks/adjustments are every 16K, they are not cheap ($500.00 plus for that service interval... yeah, I know... by the time you get there on the Honda, you have done it twice on the RT... but still is pricey). Honda has a good bike generally speaking, but the ST does indeed have issues as I can attest to that personally. And since Feb 07, not any problem with the RT (of course now, since I have said that, I will have a final drive failure tomorrow

[moshe_levy]

Road-

 

My RT is the most reliable bike I've ever owned. The cops don't care what you or I think. They tally up the repair costs (which had a good deal to do with who is allowed to fix the bikes, at what rates, and what constitutes a "repair.") Right now, the Honda is blowing BMW out of the water in that department, like it or not.

 

-MKL

[bmwsit]

Our bikes are serviced by an city employed mechanic. For any warranty type items, yes, it goes to the dealer, but general service items, city mechanic takes care of it all. So not much cost there.

 

Oh, and have they taken care of the high speed wobble on the ST police bikes? Would rather not have to worry about that if trying to run down a speeder.

[CruisinCruzan]

With some of the issues raised in the article it will be interesting to see if that results in increased interest in the new Kawasaki police bike.

[BailyD]

Kawasaki as a company is not behind their Police bike as of yet (that I've heard). A few companies are making Police versions out of the civilian model.

 

It will need to perform in the training courses as good as the HD, Honda and BMW if it's even thinking of competing with them.

[ka5ysy]

One of the interesting things I note about the article is that from a statistical point, it ignores the fact that motor officers tend really abuse "their" bikes since they don't have to pay for whatever breaks. None of the police bikes that I am familiar with are immune to this. The Harleys around my area tend to get really beat up between training, and normal road patrol usage. Any analysis of the bikes would necessitate some kind of statistical allowance for the "abuse" factor to normalize the results.

 

The comments in part two of the article show that for on-road usage, the BMW is more comfortable whereas the Kawasaki's would not be kind to the rider on a longer day ride in Arizona, especially the Phoenix to Payson trip used as the example. For those who are unfamiliar, it is a LONG trip up and back.

 

The comment that after having been on the BMW for 3 years and getting back on the Kawasaki was "scary" is informative about the stability of the bikes, as well as the comment that the Harleys are "the perfect bike for a relaxing ride in the mountains for lunch on a weekend, but is really not a good fit for what we need".

 

I guess the bottom line is that the motor officers tend to prefer whatever they were trained on and have lots of mileage with. None of the bikes are totally up to the task of severe usage that police work provides and all have strengths and weaknesses that need to be corrected.

[BailyD]

Doug,

 

I think it's the nature of the beast for these bikes to get abused. I agree some do abuse them, regardless of how well you try to treat "your" assigned bike they end up being ridden much harder than their civilian counterparts.

 

To me, the concept of how well they hold up during this extreme riding shows the different benchmarks each bike may or may not set.

 

It's very hard to get a fair evaluation of this concept, especially when the riders include their particular bias' toward the bikes they like.

 

Remember: when it comes to police work the fastest, best handling characteristics doesn't always trump a comfortable, reliable or MOST IMPORTANT cost effective vehicle. If it did, all police would give up their Crown Vics for BMW 5 series! (Wait a minute, how do I get one of those! : )

[krussell]

I think it's interesting how difficult they portray BMW to work with. I'm sure they are, but you can't buy a police bike from Kawi, you can only get a demo for 2-3 weeks from Harley, and Honda couldn't deliver in the quantities they wanted. Seems like from the purchase perspective that BMW nailed it, they were the only vendor that could deliver.

 

It is very interesting what they find worth mentioning, like the lack of a heel toe shifter on the BMW. I think a lot of the first part of the article are folks reacting to something that is "different." If you let them ride the boxer for 20 yrs, then go to a wet clutch operated by a cable that will be a big issue, they'll clamor for the dry clutch and hydraulic feel because that is what they know.

 

The maintenance section is full of holes. For example, the comparison of the dealer replaced clutch on the BMW, vs. the department replaced clutch on the Kawi. $1000 vs. $100. What is the $100 Kawasaki number? The cost of the parts? You've got salary, benefits, training, workspace, tools, parts inventory, etc. that all have to be figured in to that.

 

The comparison is BMW Dealer Maintained vs. Kawi Department maintained. Most of what is discussed isn't about the reliability of the bikes, it's about the different costs associated with doing maintenance at the dealer vs. in house.

 

But I get it, the article is about how expensive it is to do business with BMW, not an evaluation of the service requirements. I'm really curious about what is actually in the big tables of repair costs. Is that just repairs like the title suggests, or is it maintenance? And where are the Kawasaki tables that show the complete cost of Kawi maintenance? The author explains a comparison can't be done due to lack of standardization across departments. Couldn't the Kawi comparison be shown for the one department that he happily quotes for all the other information, including the BMW detail?

 

And if a credible comparison can't be done due to issues with how the numbers are tracked etc, then how can the author credibly print nearly 3/4 of a page of content free numbers on the BMW bikes? What good are they, especially when it's not clear what is actually included. They author seems to use "maintenance data" and "repair data" to mean the same thing.

 

Even comparing these two tables directly is difficult, at least misleading. In theory, all of the 1200s should be under warranty given the mileage shown, assuming the warranty for police bikes is as good as civilian bikes. If that's the case, the 1200 table shows what must be the maintenance cost, and potentially any non warranty repairs. Does the 1150 table show out of warranty repairs?

 

But wait, it's even more misleading. The 1150 table shows costs for bikes with an average life of 48,441 miles. The 1200 table shows costs for bikes with an average life of 20,102 miles. The number for the 1200 should be better, the bikes have less than half the life of the 1150. If you want to make the comparison, look at the 1150 costs for the first 20k of service life, or hang on until the 1200s have 48k. It's not unreasonable to speculate that the 1200s will actually be MORE expensive in the long run.

 

Hopefully none of this information is used to actually make decisions.

 

I'll be interested in the ST1300 comparison if there is a follow up. But I sure hope the author doesn't use the first six months of life of the ST1300 against numbers of aging 1200s like has been done with the 1150/1200 comparison shown.

 

I didn't see why the department couldn't do the tire changes on the BMW, again an apples to orange comparison?

 

In spite of my issues with the information presented, it was interesting reading. :-)

 

Finally, JVB, you should send them a copy of your DVD.

[BailyD]

Can you get the article on line? Why does it sound like they are comparing the KZ to the RT? The KZ is DEAD... and can be considered ancient history now (like comparing a 2009 Dodge Charger to a 1978 Plymouth 440 Fury). A lot of departments wouldn't buy it w/o ABS anyway, even Harley changed over to ABS because it is such a large safety issue w/police.

 

I've found that comparing BMW to Harley maintenance costs are in the same ballpark. Our BMW dealer has always been very good to our department, work wise. No special breaks on service, but all warranty work is done w/o question and quickly. Warranty is 39 month (I forgot the mileage, but we won't go over it before the time is out)

[Bill_Walker]

Moshe,Is that the January or February issue that you speak of?

 

It was both. Part I was in the January issue, and Part II is in the February issue. Most of the BMW info is in Part II.

 

Because they don't take any advertising, they don't put a lot of their content on the web, but their web site is www.mcnews.com

[bendbill]

Can you get the article on line? Why does it sound like they are comparing the KZ to the RT? The KZ is DEAD... and can be considered ancient history now (like comparing a 2009 Dodge Charger to a 1978 Plymouth 440 Fury). A lot of departments wouldn't buy it w/o ABS anyway, even Harley changed over to ABS because it is such a large safety issue w/police.

 

I've found that comparing BMW to Harley maintenance costs are in the same ballpark. Our BMW dealer has always been very good to our department, work wise. No special breaks on service, but all warranty work is done w/o question and quickly. Warranty is 39 month (I forgot the mileage, but we won't go over it before the time is out)

 

MCN can be purchased online here: http://www.mcnews.com/mcn/ Click on to the digital issues ad on the right side of the opening page, pay your $7, and download immediately.

 

 

[ratfink]

Moshe:

 

I read the the article with great interest. Do different tires really cure the proclivities of the Honda SchlappenTanken(Jan. issue)? I read somewhere before that Honda have issued a warning against exceeding 85 mph with laden panniers, don't know if was accurate.

 

In any case why spend so much time comparing the current bikes to the Kawasaki which no longer exists? Seems like beating a dead horse to me.

[moshe_levy]

People can be creatures of habit, and the Kawasaki was one looooooong habit. Over decades of use, everybody got used to riding it, and to fixing it. Introduce some variables and change, and the inevitable results.

 

I think the Honda is going to gain popularity, and we'll see how the new Kawi police bike does as well.

 

-MKL

[peterbulgar]

That was an interesting article - my February issue of MCN arrived Saturday, so be patient.

 

The criticism of the article is fair enough, however, I'm sure the author did the best with the data he had. The article doesn't answer every question about BMW costs, reliability, and advantages, but it's still worthwhile. What I find interesting is that the overall conclusions in the article pretty much match what many people have said on this forum: BMW dealer maintenance costs are high, the servo brakes are overly sensitive, the 1150's suffered an inordinate number of driveline failures (I wish Larsen had been more specific about what parts of the driveline failed), and BMW is sometimes difficult to deal with.

 

I recently had my 84k (12k schedule) service done on my R1150RA and it came to $600. There was nothing done that I haven't done myself on my R75/5. I chose to have the shop do the work because it's a great shop, the experieced mechanics do an excellent job, and because I'm lazy. I'm not complaining about the cost, just pointing it out.

 

In the same issue there's a letter to the editor by an 1150 BMW owner who had his oil sightglass blow out. His dealer said he'd never seen that happen before. The owner did a little checking and discovered that on the 1200 the sightglass now has a retaining clip. BMW disclaims responsibility for a faulty part. The owner wants to know why it was changed if it wasn't faulty to begin with. Does this have a familiar ring? (Thanks to this forum an oil sight glass is part of my travel kit.)

 

Peter '73 R75/5, '04 R1150RA

[BailyD]

Moshe, Kawi actually has to MAKE the police bike first. They won't take off until the company makes the bike themselves, not a civi bike w/parts bin. Governments are concerned about the liablity of making a non police bike, a police bike. In addition it HAS to be able to turn w/ the BMW/HD and Honda. I heard it's having a hard time of it in its current form, ie: being dropped a lot in the cone course. Of course, it's still interesting to see what happens!

 

Recently I filled out a survey for Victory concerning their attempt to break into the police market. Seems interesting that another American manufacturer is getting in with what seems to be a "more modern V-twin" design.

 

http://www.victorypolicemotorcycles.com/Home_Page.html

 

 

ps: the sightglass on my RTP 1200 was leaking and had to be replaced under warranty and w/o incident.

 

 

 

[motorman587]

I have the read the article too, and our 1100, 1150 and 1200 have been the best cop motorcycle I had every been one. I rode the KZ1000 and the Harley. I would not to ride anything else then the RTP. We never had the problems that the article address and we had the best dealer. I guess we were lucky.

[ratfink]

Correct me if I'm wrong. BMW offered a lease program on their bikes that included service and repair up to 60k miles. If an investigation is warranted, who decided to buy the the bikes outright and a pay as you go plan for service?

 

An Arizona officer compared the Honda ST to a refrigerator (favorably?) I guess If he he wants to ride a Kelvinator it is his prerogative.

[Steve Larsen]

This weekend a friend pointed me to your excellent site and thoughtful forums. He showed me the thread on two articles I did for MCN on police motorcycle reliability. Although most of the comments are from a year ago, I sure enjoyed reading them and knowing they were digested with such interest.

The most gratifying comment may have been from Peter Bulgar in San Francisco when he wrote that all of the research seemed to support a lot of things all of you had found yourselves and written about on this forum.

When you put in the amount of work that goes into a series like this, it is really nice to know that it is read with such interest. So thanks!

Steve Larsen

 

[Frank Cloud]

That said, the new Honda is going to kick serious butt in the reliability and service cost issues compared to BMW

 

I wouldn't be so sure about that statement... I had an ST1300 (04 ABS) and of all my bikes to date, it was the most problematic (Coolant leak(s) that could not be fixed and thermostat issues). Plus, while the valve checks/adjustments are every 16K, they are not cheap ($500.00 plus for that service interval... yeah, I know... by the time you get there on the Honda, you have done it twice on the RT... but still is pricey). Honda has a good bike generally speaking, but the ST does indeed have issues as I can attest to that personally. And since Feb 07, not any problem with the RT (of course now, since I have said that, I will have a final drive failure tomorrow

 

Chris, you've done a 180.

[Roadwolf]

Yeah, I know... I left the BMW fold in 04 for my ST1300 and it was a good relationship for the first 24,000 miles or so, then not so good the next 24K. I reserve judgement on the RT as well, but with 52,000 miles on the clock, it is still the most reliable bike I have owned. And a keeper.

[ka5ysy]

This weekend a friend pointed me to your excellent site and thoughtful forums. He showed me the thread on two articles I did for MCN on police motorcycle reliability. Although most of the comments are from a year ago, I sure enjoyed reading them and knowing they were digested with such interest.

The most gratifying comment may have been from Peter Bulgar in San Francisco when he wrote that all of the research seemed to support a lot of things all of you had found yourselves and written about on this forum.

When you put in the amount of work that goes into a series like this, it is really nice to know that it is read with such interest. So thanks!

Steve Larsen

 

 

Hi Steve, and welcome to the site. Thanks for a great article, and keep up the good work.