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pmdave

Braking Practice

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tallman

Dave,

I don't want to be naegative, but short of offering free beer at the parking lot practice, I don't know.

 

You know the data better than I do.

Huge percentage of mc accidents don't involve another vehicle.

Huge percentage involve alcohol.

The majority of those riders ar single (from link above).

Changing behavior of someone who has a different risk/benefit analysis paradigm than we do is not very likely.

 

I would think that there is an area that could be changed WRT all of this.

 

A large percentage of mc accidents ar at intersections.

Perhaps aggressive public awareness campaign, coupled w/mandatory speed reductions w/in certain distance of all intersections coupled with specific signage might bring the matter to the attention of joe cagedriver.

 

I also think that lane sharing/splitting at traffic light regualted intersections would help WRT this.

Why?

Because eventually drivers would expect to see mc's at intersections andthis would raise level of awareness and perception so we would be "seen" and reduce the "I ddin't see" stories.

 

Back to your question.

Maybe if there were stopping contests they would draw crowds the way dyno testing does.

Sorry to get tangential in my replies, no disrespect, just a wandering thought association mindset.

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pmdave

Tallman,

 

You might have something there. The macho connection can stimulate people to do things.

 

Quick stop competition: maybe it's an idea whose time has come.

 

Maybe the stunt teams could end their performances with a challenge to a quick stop competition instead of the usual cloudy burnouts. Perhaps if we had some spokesperson like Nick Ienatsh making the challenge, more riders would be willing to participate.

 

One recent trend at the big bike shows is to have seminars. I've done a few. Lee Parks has done quite a few--I think he approaches the show organizers well in advance and pushes them hard to include the seminars. Yes, the vast majority of show-goers ignore them, but more and more riders are taking advantage.

 

There is also much more information being transmitted on the various Internet sites. How about a video of a rider doing a very quick stop? Or two riders stopping to avoid a left-turning car. One rider stops short, the other hits the car. (I'm not volunteering to be the DA rider.)

 

2wheeltips.com is considering some 3-minute videos. They believe that 3 minutes is the limit of the attention span.

 

pmdave

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tallman

BMW's demo rider Jean-Pierre Goy has made some impressive displays at shows wetting down the area and flying in, stopping while dismounting as the bike comes to rest.

 

he shows some impressive control of an RT.

 

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ChrisC

In maximum braking, the bottom line is having the ability to not panic which 99% of people don't have...don't know how that would be taught.

 

Remaining calm enables you to apply brakes in a linear fashion to the point of near or full lock-up and then release them just enough to unlock them and all in a split second. People who panic, lock their brakes and go down.

 

When you can do that in a real world situation and not in a parking lot, then you have mastered not just braking, but control. :wave:

 

Of course having the judgement to prevent situations from happening in the first place is number one.

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ChrisC
BMW's demo rider Jean-Pierre Goy has made some impressive displays at shows wetting down the area and flying in, stopping while dismounting as the bike comes to rest.

 

he shows some impressive control of an RT.

 

Not really.

 

The squealing tire you hear (in an attempt to impress us) is actually his rear tire as evidenced by his sliding rear wheel. He is slowing down by using his front brake which isn't even close to the limit.

 

When he gets the front tire to sing and leave a faint black line, then he'll be in my territory. :grin:

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pmdave

All the stunt stuff is entertaining, but doesn't teach the required skills for street riding, nor does it motivate anyone to practice street skills.

 

I would like to see someone like Goy do his stunt stuff, then move on to some demonstrations of quick stops (without drama) and then maybe a few tips about avoiding collisions or managing corners.

 

IOW, attract attention with the gee-whiz stunts, then turn the attention to skills that apply to street riding.

 

I discovered years ago that anyone wishing to do seminars at a large event must first attract a crowd, much like a street busker attracts a crowd with music, juggling, magic tricks, etc. Then once you have their attention, the sales pitch can begin--in my case selling riding skills.

 

I wonder how we might get BMW AG to understand how they could have a positive affect on riding skills?

 

Item other: since we've pretty well covered braking practice, would it be of interest to start a separate string about why car drivers don't seem to see us?

 

pmdave

 

pmdave

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tallman

Dave,

That was my thought.

Draw the crowd, then demonstrate on dry and wet pavement.

 

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russell_bynum
Dave,

That was my thought.

Draw the crowd, then demonstrate on dry and wet pavement.

 

If I'm the sort of person who has to be drawn in with stunts, why would I stick around for boring demonstrations of controlled stops?

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ShovelStrokeEd

I'm confused. I was out at the local drag strip watching the top fuel HD's and the turbo 'Busas perform and they had a little stunt show going on between rounds. The stunta types, IMHO, already demonstrate some pretty high levels of front brake application, control and modulation. Not to mention doing a 180 with the back wheel in the air, the while putting the side stand down and stepping off the bike just as the rear wheel comes in contact.

 

I was more impressed by a 60" wheelbase turbo 'Busa that ran 7.32 seconds at 192 mph with no wheelie bars. A 6.34/202 blast by a nitro HD kinda tickled a bit as well. Had to be seen and felt to believe.

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Ken H.
The stunta types, IMHO, already demonstrate some pretty high levels of front brake application, control and modulation.

But does the general audience realize this? You can see the quality of their ‘braking work’ because you have an experienced eye for picking it out. But if it is to be an educational tool to the masses I would thing the specifies have to be pointed out. A contrast made/illustrated between the right way and the wrong way to do it. Make the message blatantly obvious.

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russell_bynum
The stunta types, IMHO, already demonstrate some pretty high levels of front brake application, control and modulation.

But does the general audience realize this? You can see the quality of their ‘braking work’ because you have an experienced eye for picking it out. But if it is to be an educational tool to the masses I would thing the specifies have to be pointed out. A contrast made/illustrated between the right way and the wrong way to do it. Make the message blatantly obvious.

 

If you make it too obvious, nobody will be interested. That's like putting Cheese on Broccoli. It doesn't make the Broccoli taste good, it just makes the cheese taste bad.

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ShovelStrokeEd

If one were to run a movie of a stunt type doing a high level stoppie, it wouldn't be hard to narrate what the guy is doing and draw parallels between him keeping the bike from mouse trapping him by easing of the brake as the bike slows. Him getting just the right amount of wheel lift by applying the brakes with just enough force and modulating same to get the lift he needs paralleled by using body position to aid in balance of the bike.

 

Shouldn't be too hard to draw comparison with bring the front wheel to the point of lockup and getting the bike to do a stoppie. Pretty much the same technique applies, only the body position is really different.

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russell_bynum
If one were to run a movie of a stunt type doing a high level stoppie, it wouldn't be hard to narrate what the guy is doing and draw parallels between him keeping the bike from mouse trapping him by easing of the brake as the bike slows. Him getting just the right amount of wheel lift by applying the brakes with just enough force and modulating same to get the lift he needs paralleled by using body position to aid in balance of the bike.

 

Shouldn't be too hard to draw comparison with bring the front wheel to the point of lockup and getting the bike to do a stoppie. Pretty much the same technique applies, only the body position is really different.

 

OK...so I'm the typical person who buys/watches stunter vids. Do I watch the one that narrates a lesson on proper brake application or the one with loud music, topless girls hanging off the front of the bike as it does a stoppie, and lots of bikes crashing with corresponding pics of the riders showing off their road rash?

 

I don't think the problem is that we can't get the message out there. The problem is how do we get people to want to hear it?

 

I've seen a few stunt shows (they were often done as side shows/filler during AMA Superbike race weekends). Of all the stuff that those guys did, two things got the biggest crowd reaction: 1. Burnouts. Not a rolling burnout...just standing there with the bike stopped, front brake on and the rear tire spinning and smoking. 2. Pull in the clutch and pin the throttle, letting the bike bounce off the limiter. These guys did some unbelievable stuff, but what got the biggest reaction were the things that required the least skill. Oh yeah...and everyone went nuts when one of the guys dropped his bike doing a 12-oclock wheelie.

 

That's the mentality of the folks you're dealing with.

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ShovelStrokeEd

I didn't ever imply that it would be easy to reach them. In fact, I think it would be more or less impossible given that anything that has no potential for an engine explosion or road rash draws little to no interest.

 

However, a video with a voice-over, given as part of some form of rider improvement class would probably serve some purpose. Showing a video of a bike coming to a stop, even a hard one, is not very dramatic as, if the stop is done properly, nothing happens except some fork compression and a change in velocity. With the bike hanging its rear up in the air and the rider moving his body a bit, you get some action going. It is now up to the narrator to point out the dynamics, etc.

 

I actually think much of this thread is preaching to the choir. Here, more than any of the sites in which I participate, there is a healthy interest in improvement of skills. Elsewhere, they seem to feel, for the most part, that having survived a couple of years, there is really no more to learn. Pity, that.

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russell_bynum
I didn't ever imply that it would be easy to reach them. In fact, I think it would be more or less impossible given that anything that has no potential for an engine explosion or road rash draws little to no interest.

 

However, a video with a voice-over, given as part of some form of rider improvement class would probably serve some purpose. Showing a video of a bike coming to a stop, even a hard one, is not very dramatic as, if the stop is done properly, nothing happens except some fork compression and a change in velocity. With the bike hanging its rear up in the air and the rider moving his body a bit, you get some action going. It is now up to the narrator to point out the dynamics, etc.

 

Ah, I see.

 

Yes, I think that could be helpful.

 

 

I actually think much of this thread is preaching to the choir. Here, more than any of the sites in which I participate, there is a healthy interest in improvement of skills. Elsewhere, they seem to feel, for the most part, that having survived a couple of years, there is really no more to learn. Pity, that.

 

I agree...though we do trend towards the "I have ABS/ASC/telelever/etc" so I don't need to learn how to ride." attitude.

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Bill_Walker
I'm confused. I was out at the local drag strip watching the top fuel HD's and the turbo 'Busas perform and they had a little stunt show going on between rounds. The stunta types, IMHO, already demonstrate some pretty high levels of front brake application, control and modulation. Not to mention doing a 180 with the back wheel in the air, the while putting the side stand down and stepping off the bike just as the rear wheel comes in contact.

 

All of which probably just convinces the sort of people we're talking about that they should stay away from the front brake because it'll make the rear wheel come off the ground.

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Jim Moore
tallman made an excellent point back there, about slowing down. My take on this is to slow whenever you are approaching a potentially hazardous situation. Scrubbing off just 10 mph from your normal arterial speed cuts actual braking distance almost in half.

 

Let's say you are approaching an alley with the nose of a car poking out, at a speed of 40 mph. If you transition to the front brake and slow just 10 mph to 30, you will be able to stop much quicker. Let's put some numbers to that theory:

 

Let's say you have a decent reaction time of 0.75 sec, and you are skilled enough (or your ABS is good enough) to pull a 30 sec per sec deceleration rate. Your reaction time would eat up 44 feet and your braking distance would be 57.5 or so. total: 101.5 ft.

 

Now, if you are already on the brake, your reaction time might be half--say 22 ft. And from 30 mph your braking distance would be say 32.5 feet. total: 54.5 ft.

 

You don't have to creep down the street all the time, just get on the brake when something looks fishy. If the car doesn't pull out, you can quickly get back up to speed.

 

pmdave

 

This has been a great thread. I really appreciate the civil tone and everyone's inputs. Here's mine. I really don't like the idea in the above post. I know it sounds good. Slow down to decrease your stopping distance if the situation looks a little sketchy, right? The problem with that plan is that you are unintentionally signaling to the car that you are either turning right, or you are slowing down to let him pull out. Some day a driver is going to interpret (maybe even subconciously) your slowing down as an invitation to go. I prefer to maintain my speed, cover the front brake, and use my lane position to set up an escape path.

 

Of course there's more to it than that. I try position myself in traffic so no one gets a free shot at me. I'll speed up or slow down (OK, that's a lie. I always speed up) so that I enter intersections in close proximity to other cars in my lanes. I'm hoping no one will turn across my path if it means hitting me AND a pickup truck.

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jfremder

Item other: since we've pretty well covered braking practice, would it be of interest to start a separate string about why car drivers don't seem to see us?

 

pmdave

 

pmdave

 

Yes, and add what we might do to be better seen, especially by oncoming/cross traffic:

 

Gear Color

Safety Vest

Weave in Lane

Briefly Point bike/light at oncoming vehicle

Lane Position

Flash Hi-Beam (could be misinterpreted)

Run Hi-Beam (I choose not to)

Conspicuity Lighting

 

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Paul Mihalka

Being seen is good - but riding like we are invisible is a must.

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Bernie
tallman made an excellent point back there, about slowing down. My take on this is to slow whenever you are approaching a potentially hazardous situation. Scrubbing off just 10 mph from your normal arterial speed cuts actual braking distance almost in half.

 

Let's say you are approaching an alley with the nose of a car poking out, at a speed of 40 mph. If you transition to the front brake and slow just 10 mph to 30, you will be able to stop much quicker. Let's put some numbers to that theory:

 

Let's say you have a decent reaction time of 0.75 sec, and you are skilled enough (or your ABS is good enough) to pull a 30 sec per sec deceleration rate. Your reaction time would eat up 44 feet and your braking distance would be 57.5 or so. total: 101.5 ft.

 

Now, if you are already on the brake, your reaction time might be half--say 22 ft. And from 30 mph your braking distance would be say 32.5 feet. total: 54.5 ft.

 

You don't have to creep down the street all the time, just get on the brake when something looks fishy. If the car doesn't pull out, you can quickly get back up to speed.

 

pmdave

 

This has been a great thread. I really appreciate the civil tone and everyone's inputs. Here's mine. I really don't like the idea in the above post. I know it sounds good. Slow down to decrease your stopping distance if the situation looks a little sketchy, right? The problem with that plan is that you are unintentionally signaling to the car that you are either turning right, or you are slowing down to let him pull out. Some day a driver is going to interpret (maybe even subconciously) your slowing down as an invitation to go. I prefer to maintain my speed, cover the front brake, and use my lane position to set up an escape path.

 

Of course there's more to it than that. I try position myself in traffic so no one gets a free shot at me. I'll speed up or slow down (OK, that's a lie. I always speed up) so that I enter intersections in close proximity to other cars in my lanes. I'm hoping no one will turn across my path if it means hitting me AND a pickup truck.

 

I partly agree with Jim, if you give them the little finger, they will take the whole arm. But if you use the braking/throttle technique taught by Lee Parks in Total Control, you can slow down and warm up your brakes, with out the other person noticing. If they are even seeing you.

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Bernie
:thumbsup:

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Ken H.
[i'm hoping no one will turn across my path if it means hitting me AND a pickup truck.

Ah, but therein lies the flaw. People turn in front of things far bigger and brighter than a pickup truck (or whatever) all the time. And the person on the bike (hoping for protection in your approach) pays the price. Relying (hoping) on other to do something of any type when on a bike is potentially a fatal mistake.

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Jim Moore

It ain't foolproof, that's for sure.

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tallman

Jim,

I understand.

I try to move my helmet and look at as many potential threats as I can at intersections.

Right or wrong, I feel that by "looking" at them, there is more of a chance they'll not pull out or turn.

No rationale, I understand, but I think people pick up on movement and subtle head turns might register w/a cager.

Mere hypothesis.

Slowing down, to me connotes an absecne of excessive speed and slight decrease with my hand already in the ready to roll off/on as needed and brake covered and ready to act.

You make a good point that rapid decel might send the wrong message.

Best wishes.

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jaytee

Interesting thread. When on city streets here in SoCal and if I notice I have the sun behind me, I always turn on my high beams. I do not flash them as that might be taken as a signal to go.

 

I also do not slow precipitously as that also seems to signal the oncoming car. I also turn my head conspicuously if they are on the right or left and I like to cross intersections with another car or truck.

 

So far so good (knock on wood).

 

JT

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UberXY

Recommended braking drills, literally.

 

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MotorinLA

Very nice discussion about braking, however, I'd like to add my $0.02.

 

I think the gist of this thread, at least as I understand it, is not just about braking, but collision avoidance. What so many seem to overlook when it comes to collision avoidance is steering. We seem to get so preoccupied with the braking portion and how this can be improved and optimized, that we often forget about the steering part. As stated by many already in this thread, the reason we practice is to be better prepared and to be able to respond in a more constructive manner than what our 'natural reaction' would provide. Our brain is capable of extremely quick reasoning, if we can avoid the ‘panic mode’.

 

So, back to steering. Most police motorcycle riding schools, at least that I’m aware of on the West Coast, don’t practice braking just by itself, but always in conjunction with steering. You have to be able to stop quickly, but also to be able to steer to avoid a hazard. The standardized tests for California motor schools include a 40 mph deceleration test. This test requires the rider to accelerate to a speed of no less than 40 mph in third gear, with both hands closed on the handle bars. Then the rider reaches a marked point where braking begins. At this point the rider transitions his fingers to the brake and clutch levers and applies optimal braking power, while downshifting to first gear. The rider must come to a complete stop within a given distance, must not lock the brakes, must remain upright, and must be able to immediately start forward again without putting a foot on the ground. As the rider is braking, he is also given a signal to continue straight, swerve right or swerve left after the braking is completed. All this obviously trains the rider to not only brake and downshift properly in the shortest possible distance/time, but also to multi-task and focus on an avenue of escape while the braking is taking place.

 

Being an aggressive enforcement rider, I’ve had the opportunity to continually practice and use these skills. I have had situations that were caused by other drivers and situations caused by my own actions that required me to take evasive actions to avoid a collision. During all these situations the most important factor, in my opinion, was being able to keep a level head. This has allowed me to evaluate and re-evaluate the situations as they develop and take the appropriate actions to avoid a crash.

 

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Indy Dave

START Tune Up BUMP!

 

Always a good thing to review and self evaluate the basics we often take for granted.

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