Somalian Pirates Beware.

[UberXY]

The new USS Independence was launched. 43 knots at half power, no bow wave, massive aft helicopter deck. Ass will be kicked.

 

 

[Firefight911]

Nice! And only 100% over budget, with over 2000 discrepancies noted, and a leak or two.

 

LINKY

 

Would love to see some video of her sea trials. Especially when they bring her about at flank speed!!!

[beemerman2k]

We don't need a ship like that for a bunch of Somalian punks who barely know how to use the weapons they have managed to "acquire" from somewhere. All we need is a policy of mess with our ships and we'll mess with yours. Virtually any floating device we have is more than sufficient to take care of this problem.

[KDeline]

We don't need a ship like that for a bunch of Somalian punks who barely know how to use the weapons they have managed to "acquire" from somewhere. All we need is a policy of mess with our ships and we'll mess with yours. Virtually any floating device we have is more than sufficient to take care of this problem.

 

 

Sorry, we need to be PC so the world will love us, that boat is no better then an achor now.

[Aluminum_Butt]

Virtually any floating device we have is more than sufficient to take care of this problem.

 

True. But the one pictured above will make them crap their pants before they are "taken care of".

 

Shock and awe!

[beemerman2k]

Virtually any floating device we have is more than sufficient to take care of this problem.

 

True. But the one pictured above will make them crap their pants before they are "taken care of".

 

Shock and awe!

 

 

That used to be the effect the simple sight of the American Flag had on our adversaries.

[Aluminum_Butt]

That used to be the effect the simple sight of the American Flag had on our adversaries.

 

True. And there was an equal, but opposite, reaction from those who we were trying to help. We certainly no longer wield the same influence.

[upflying]

Reminds me of technology used in Navy warship building 150 years ago. That should have been named USS Merrimac II.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CSS_Virginia

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Virtually any floating device we have is more than sufficient to take care of this problem.

 

Ya think?

 

 

(is this boat gonna go forwards, or backwards? :confused:)

[upflying]

At least the Somalian pirates will have difficulty climbing up the side of the USS Independence as the sailors use fire hoses to defend the vessel.

[Aluminum_Butt]

Just curious - what's the significance of "no bow wave"? Does it make it harder to detect electronically?

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Just curious - what's the significance of "no bow wave"? Does it make it harder to detect electronically?

 

Efficiency. Or, if you stick with the same power level, a higher top speed.

[russell_bynum]

We don't need a ship like that for a bunch of Somalian punks who barely know how to use the weapons they have managed to "acquire" from somewhere. All we need is a policy of mess with our ships and we'll mess with yours. Virtually any floating device we have is more than sufficient to take care of this problem.

 

Yup. Arm the crews. Problem goes away.

 

That plan even works when the crews are French.

[Antimatter]

Depends on what you refer to as the somali pirates. There are multiple groups, some who are just fishermen and others who actually have a command structure and military weapons. Arming ship crews would help against the former but not against the latter. The whole situation is very complex and involves breakdowns in government, violations of environmental law by multinational corporations, and a host of other factors that defy the simple black and white depiction our news media makes it out to be. A real solution would be to find something productive for the guys who are are recruited to do the pirating. I guarantee that 90% of them would rather be making money doing something safe as opposed to risking their lives on the high seas.

[russell_bynum]

A real solution would be to find something productive for the guys who are are recruited to do the pirating.

 

Shark bait.

[upflying]

Didn't we did try to find something productive for the guys doing the recruiting back in 1993?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Mogadishu_%281993%29

[SeanC]

A real solution would be to find something productive for the guys who are are recruited to do the pirating.

 

Shark bait.

 

 

"Where are you going today, Muhammad?"

 

"Just chumming with my friends."

 

[steve.foote]

Nice! And only 100% over budget, with over 2000 discrepancies noted, and a leak or two.

 

This should be studied. It would be interesting to see how they stayed so close to the original price. It could have broad implications for other programs being considered.

[Firefight911]

Nice! And only 100% over budget, with over 2000 discrepancies noted, and a leak or two.

 

This should be studied. It would be interesting to see how they stayed so close to the original price. It could have broad implications for other programs being considered.

 

Uhh, close? Uh, "The total projected cost for the ship is $704 million. The Navy had originally projected the cost at $220 million."

 

And, could someone explain this to me. Especially, in light of the above quote.

 

"Navy leaders also said that the fixed price competition offered the Austal design an equal shot, in spite of its excess size and cost and limited service."

 

Oh, they fixed the price alright. Erased it and re-wrote a much higher one!!!

[upflying]

Nice! And only 100% over budget, with over 2000 discrepancies noted, and a leak or two.

 

This should be studied. It would be interesting to see how they stayed so close to the original price. It could have broad implications for other programs being considered.

 

Uhh, close? Uh, "The total projected cost for the ship is $704 million. The Navy had originally projected the cost at $220 million."

 

And, could someone explain this to me. Especially, in light of the above quote.

 

"Navy leaders also said that the fixed price competition offered the Austal design an equal shot, in spite of its excess size and cost and limited service."

 

Oh, they fixed the price alright. Erased it and re-wrote a much higher one!!!

I'm taking Rightspin's comment as sarcasm and "other programs being considered" as the current health care issue.

[Hermes]

The new USS Independence was launched. 43 knots at half power, no bow wave, massive aft helicopter deck. Ass will be kicked.

 

 

Ass will be kicked, m...maybe. This ship is specifically designed for litterol work, it will not be seaworthy out in the deep ocean, where the Pirates are, 900 miles out. Out there the PC Canadians are looking out for the pirates, taken away their guns, given them fresh water and send them back home.

 

I do like the design though and the performance data (up to 60 kn it's rumored). I am just wondering in what type of shore vicinity war scenario will it be employed and how likely is that scenario? E.g. is it good money spent.

[11101110]

We don't need a ship like that for a bunch of Somalian punks who barely know how to use the weapons they have managed to "acquire" from somewhere. All we need is a policy of mess with our ships and we'll mess with yours. Virtually any floating device we have is more than sufficient to take care of this problem.

 

I say we send Old Iron Sides out to battle the pirates just for old times sake.

[pbharvey]

My dad was on the USS Independence...the big one.

 

Seems like it would easier to shoot a pirate boat from a plane.

 

[Lawman]

A real solution would be to find something productive for the guys who are are recruited to do the pirating. I guarantee that 90% of them would rather be making money doing something safe as opposed to risking their lives on the high seas.

 

Or perhaps some art therapy..

 

http://abcnews.go.com/Blotter/men-believed-northwest-airlines-plot-set-free/story?id=9434065

[Lets_Play_Two]

"A real solution would be to find something productive for the guys who are are recruited to do the pirating. I guarantee that 90% of them would rather be making money doing something safe as opposed to risking their lives on the high seas."

 

Just like all drug dealers would rather have honest work for $15 an hour rather than make $1500 a day. And who is responsible for finding them something productive to do, The Somali "government" or multinational corporations?

[lawnchairboy]

just guesssing here Phil, but I believe Steve was being a tad droll there...

 

love ya' Steve

[enfoman]

"I say we send Old Iron Sides out to battle the pirates just for old times sake."

 

She is still commissioned and classified as a warship- Nice thought.

 

Tradition is alive and well in the navy and runs deep. I am sure that the plank owners would be proud.

[steve.foote]

"Sarcasm?" "Droll?" Nooohohoho, say it isn't so.

[Ken H.]

"A real solution would be to find something productive for the guys who are are recruited to do the pirating.

Now you’ve gone and done it; introducing into the conversation the concept of trying to solve something without using a gun somehow.

[lvnvbiker]

"A real solution would be to find something productive for the guys who are are recruited to do the pirating.

Now you’ve gone and done it; introducing into the conversation the concept of trying to solve something without using a gun somehow.

 

No GUNS? What are you a commie? That thought is simply un-American.

[Antimatter]

"A real solution would be to find something productive for the guys who are are recruited to do the pirating.

Now you’ve gone and done it; introducing into the conversation the concept of trying to solve something without using a gun somehow.

 

No GUNS? What are you a commie? That thought is simply un-American.

 

Ammo has gotten so expensive lately the whole gun thing slipped my mind. Silly of me, I know.

[russell_bynum]

"A real solution would be to find something productive for the guys who are are recruited to do the pirating.

Now you’ve gone and done it; introducing into the conversation the concept of trying to solve something without using a gun somehow.

 

LOL.

 

You meet force with much stronger force.

 

It isn't our responsibility to make sure that everyone in the world is happy and leading a fulfilling life. We do what we can, but at the end of the day, if you try make your living by attacking civilian ships using AK-47's and RPG's, you get what's coming to you.

[smiller]

You meet force with much stronger force.

To win you use whatever strategy best supports your goal. That may entail more force, or it may not.

 

[russell_bynum]

You meet force with much stronger force.

To win you use whatever strategy best supports your goal. That may entail more force, or it may not.

 

When someone is charging your boat with AK's and RPG's, assuming you can't just throttle up and outrun them, the next step is to eliminate the threat.

[beemerman2k]

You meet force with much stronger force.

 

It isn't our responsibility to make sure that everyone in the world is happy and leading a fulfilling life. We do what we can, but at the end of the day, if you try make your living by attacking civilian ships using AK-47's and RPG's, you get what's coming to you.

 

 

No kidding! Thank you. +1 big time

 

There are certain laws of human interaction that govern behavior on this planet. Break them and you get what's coming. End of story. Stay within those parameters and we can be friends and talk about how to make the world a better place. But you break those laws and all bets are off.

[smiller]

When someone is charging your boat with AK's and RPG's, assuming you can't just throttle up and outrun them, the next step is to eliminate the threat.

If you mean in the extreme short term, yes. But that's a response, not a strategy. As impressed as we seem to be with ourselves Somali pirates won't give a rat's a.s about the USS Independence (unless there were enough of them and that's not economically practical, and even they know that.) I doubt you will find any qualified military leader who thinks that sheer force is the answer to piracy, or that sheer force will win against terrorism. Depending on the threat force can sometimes be the answer, or sometimes nothing more than a poor stopgap measure.

 

Piracy and terrorist threats from Somalia will not end until there is a stable society. Their social problems are not our concern, but the threat they cause is. Until we figure this out about terrorism in general then we will continue to pour trillions of dollars into military solutions that don't solve anything.

[SeanC]

Piracy and terrorist threats from Somalia will not end until there is a stable society. Their social problems are not our concern, but the threat they cause is. Until we figure this out about terrorism in general then we will continue to pour trillions of dollars into military solutions that don't solve anything.

 

So lets send in a couple crack Peace Corps battalions? Whatever the time frame is "until we figure this out," in the mean time, we need to get really mean, arm merchant ships and authorize them to fire on any approaching vessel. Those seas are a war zone, and we need to treat it as such (until we figure this out).

[smiller]

"The U.S. commander in charge of the waters off Somalia, Vice Adm. Bill Gortney, told CNN on Monday that he thought it would take a force of 61 warships to safeguard the sea lanes just in the Gulf of Aden, compared with the 14 international ships now patrolling off the Horn of Africa. If the U.S. Navy alone had to provide a force that size, it would take every destroyer and cruiser in the fleet, plus three frigates."

 

(http://www.navytimes.com/news/2008/12/navy_pirate_speech_120908w)

And the concept of turning merchant ships into warships has been similarly discredited by just about every agency that has analyzed the idea.

[SeanC]

And the concept of turning merchant ships into warships has been similarly discredited by just about every agency that has analyzed the idea.

 

I forgot about the last time our merchant ships were under attack.... We created jobs for the Germans -- building automobiles, sport-touring motorcycles, etc. -- and they eventually stopped attacking our ships. It was a very good long term plan, I think you'll agree.

 

What did we do in the short term? Oh yeah, we turned them into chum and oil slicks. Where were the agency analysts then?

[smiller]

Well sometimes I'm not sure we should have ever let them continue building the motorcycles...

[Dave McReynolds]

Piracy and terrorist threats from Somalia will not end until there is a stable society.

 

Is it within the power of the outside world to make an unstable society stable? What can the world afford to offer an Afgan farmer that would be more attractive than raising opium? What can the world afford to offer a Mexican teenager that would be more attractive than working for a drug cartel? What can the world afford to offer a Somali pirate that would be more attractive than being a pirate? What about the rest of the people who are starving all over the world; what can we offer them that will keep them peaceful in the future?

 

If we consider all the currently and potentially unstable societies in the world today, I frankly doubt that the world has enough extra resources to offer even subsistance level employment to those in need, even assuming that those who have the resources would be willing to part with them. But let's assume we could offer every potential drug worker, pirate, or thug a job in a farm, factory, or service industry that would guarantee that they and their families would not starve. Would workers in the drug industry and the pirates really find subsistance level employment to be an attractive alternative to potentially raking in the big bucks?

 

You can find examples of stable societies where millions of its citizens suffer and perish, such as Russia under Stalin, China under Mao, and Germany under Hitler. You can find examples of affluent societies that become unstable and crumble, such as the Roman Empire (and perhaps us?).

 

There is no simple, or perhaps even complex, answer as to how to attain a stable society, anymore than there is to the question of how to enable a human being to be healthy and live forever. In the absence of knowing how to do that, responding to threats with intelligent use of force has a certain appeal.

[russell_bynum]

+1

 

[smiller]

There is no simple, or perhaps even complex, answer as to how to attain a stable society, anymore than there is to the question of how to enable a human being to be healthy and live forever. In the absence of knowing how to do that, responding to threats with intelligent use of force has a certain appeal.

Well I'm sure not trying to say that the answer is anything less than extremely complex, if indeed any single answer exists at all, and an intelligent use of force may well be part of the equation. I was only suggesting that saluting the USS Independence with a lump in your throat as it floats by and then walking away thinking 'wow, sure glad we solved that problem' is a little short-sighted.

[russell_bynum]

There is no simple, or perhaps even complex, answer as to how to attain a stable society, anymore than there is to the question of how to enable a human being to be healthy and live forever. In the absence of knowing how to do that, responding to threats with intelligent use of force has a certain appeal.

Well I'm sure not trying to say that the answer is anything less than extremely complex, if indeed any single answer exists at all, and an intelligent use of force may well be part of the equation. I was only suggesting that saluting the USS Independence with a lump in your throat as it floats by and then walking away thinking 'wow, sure glad we solved that problem' is a little short-sighted.

 

For sure...I wasn't suggesting that the Independence was the answer. I think arming the crews is the first step. The next is probably something like setting up convoys with armed escort. Can we answer this threat effectively with air cover? I'm not a military strategist so I don't know the answers there. But arming the crews seems like an obvious first step.

[smiller]

For sure...I wasn't suggesting that the Independence was the answer. I think arming the crews is the first step. The next is probably something like setting up convoys with armed escort. Can we answer this threat effectively with air cover? I'm not a military strategist so I don't know the answers there. But arming the crews seems like an obvious first step.

The problem with convoys is that they have to have a reasonable number of ships and form up, and this delay costs a shipping company more than they ever stand to lose from piracy. And the issues with arming merchant ships are pretty obvious... the sailors aren't trained (and often not very suitable for being trained) to use weapons in a tactical situation, nor would they be equipped for the inevitable escalation of force that would result, nor does the shipping companies want to deal with casualties. The only solution I've seen that seems to be practical at all is the inclusion of an armed military squad on random ships, but this has its own set of problems as well. Bottom line is that the cost of many of the solutions is greater than the dollar loss due to piracy so the shipping companies aren't all that incented to do much. The cheapest thing for them is to try to make sure no one gets hurt and pay up when they have to. A pretty crummy solution but it's where the dollars point.

[Ken H.]

I agree you/we can’t stabilize every society on the planet. Nor can we provide for everyone either. So they won’t have incentives to do things that are counterproductive to a peaceful world.

 

But what you/we CAN do, at the very least, is quit doing the things that de-stabilize them. Quite intervening in ways that increase their poverty, decrease their ability to meet basic human needs, increase their hatred of our efforts/interference. The West has had a penchant for at least the last 60 years for intervening in this society or that society in the name of ‘making it better’, when in reality all they’ve really done is make day-to-day life for the populous worse. And then we are indignant in our amazement of their ingratitude for ‘all we’ve done for them.’

 

[SeanC]

Well I'm sure not trying to say that the answer is anything less than extremely complex, if indeed any single answer exists at all, and an intelligent use of force may well be part of the equation. I was only suggesting that saluting the USS Independence with a lump in your throat as it floats by and then walking away thinking 'wow, sure glad we solved that problem' is a little short-sighted.

 

It can be complex; it doesn't have to be complex. I mean, we can view it with any level of complexity we want. The solution, any solution, doesn't have to be perfect. Let's focus on what's effective.

 

As for the USS Independence, was it designed and built solely to address piracy, or does the USN envision other roles for it as well? Seriously, I haven't taken the time to read anything about this class of ship so I don't know the answer. If its role is simply to cruise around the Horn of Africa scaring pirates, I'd say it's a colossal waste of taxpayer money. A whole lot of .50 cals and air-burst anti-personnel grenades could have been bought and put to use for $700+ million bucks.

[Antimatter]

I forgot about the last time our merchant ships were under attack.... We created jobs for the Germans -- building automobiles, sport-touring motorcycles, etc. -- and they eventually stopped attacking our ships. It was a very good long term plan, I think you'll agree.

 

What did we do in the short term? Oh yeah, we turned them into chum and oil slicks. Where were the agency analysts then?

 

They designed a little thing called the Marshall Plan to help the German people rebuild their country after the war. It's funny that when reminiscing about WWII people tend to forget the extensive efforts to rebuild both Europe and Japan. It wasn't nearly as sexy as sending 500 B-17's against targets, but it worked quite well in the long run.

[russell_bynum]

I forgot about the last time our merchant ships were under attack.... We created jobs for the Germans -- building automobiles, sport-touring motorcycles, etc. -- and they eventually stopped attacking our ships. It was a very good long term plan, I think you'll agree.

 

What did we do in the short term? Oh yeah, we turned them into chum and oil slicks. Where were the agency analysts then?

 

They designed a little thing called the Marshall Plan to help the German people rebuild their country after the war. It's funny that when reminiscing about WWII people tend to forget the extensive efforts to rebuild both Europe and Japan. It wasn't nearly as sexy as sending 500 B-17's against targets, but it worked quite well in the long run.

 

For sure. First you beat them into submission. Then you help mold them into something useful. It has to be in that order.

[SeanC]

I forgot about the last time our merchant ships were under attack.... We created jobs for the Germans -- building automobiles, sport-touring motorcycles, etc. -- and they eventually stopped attacking our ships. It was a very good long term plan, I think you'll agree.

 

What did we do in the short term? Oh yeah, we turned them into chum and oil slicks. Where were the agency analysts then?

 

They designed a little thing called the Marshall Plan to help the German people rebuild their country after the war. It's funny that when reminiscing about WWII people tend to forget the extensive efforts to rebuild both Europe and Japan. It wasn't nearly as sexy as sending 500 B-17's against targets, but it worked quite well in the long run.

 

I can't reminisce about WWII. My mom was a toddler at the time and my dad hadn't reached puberty yet, so my existence -- and by extension an ability to form memories and experiences of the event -- was out of the question.

 

I can crack wise about it, however, to make a point. I.e., that when addressing the German attacks on our merchant shipping, we didn't dwell on the complexity of societal change and the relationship of the world's Haves and Have-Nots; we instead focused on littering the sea floor with as many Kraut U-boats we could send there. Then we created the Marshall Plan.

 

But today's Agency Think seems to want a global Marshall Plan in place before we so much as utter a word in anger to pirates, terrorists, etc. Yeah, let's bring stability to the world and all the world's threats will disappear. Let's just focus on how complex everything is, talk a lot about stability and hope it all works out without hurting anyone.