Hit and Run Kills Motorcyclist

[L Rider]

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/kills+motorcyclist/2277684/story.html

 

The motorcyclist laid down his bike to avoid a collision, then the car driver ran over him when he was on the ground.

 

This is very sad indeed. And more than troubling that the car driver left the scene of the accident..............

[10ovr]

www.ottawacitizen.com/news Very Sad

[T__]

I guess I just don’t understand this quote from the police--------

 

“Police said it appears the motorcyclist dropped his machine onto the ground to avoid hitting the car that had turned into his path, but his momentum carried him into the intersection.

He was then run over by the car.

Police collisions investigator Wally McIlquham said the victim’s decision to drop his bike was textbook accident prevention.

“It’s a manoeuvre you’re taught when your biking,” McIlquham said. “You dump your bike. You don’t go side-on with full speed into another vehicle. So he rolled out and the car drove over him.”

 

Twisty

 

[tallman]

Regardless of the choices the motorcyclist made (passing bus, laying bike down instead of raking/swerving), the outcome won't change, he's dead, most likely a result of the collision with a car that then fled the scene.

Condolences to his family.

Having been a multiple time hit and run victim I know there are people so evil that they can do this and some even get away with it.

Leaving the scene of an accident with injuries, particularly if there are fatalities, should result in swift and immediate maximum penalties.

[Lmar]

A sad story indeed. Condolences to his family. Hopefully they will find the driver of the vehicle that fled. Maximum penalties around here are not as severe as they should be.

[AZKomet]

Sadly the US is rubbing off on our neighbors to the north.....

[JayW]

“It’s a manoeuvre you’re taught when your biking,” McIlquham said. “You dump your bike. You don’t go side-on with full speed into another vehicle. So he rolled out and the car drove over him.”

 

I don't understand this either. I have never been taught this, and in fact have been told told just the opposite - that rubber and brakes will scrub off speed much faster than the axle nuts will. I think he is misinformed.

 

Jay

[Quinn]

“It’s a manoeuvre you’re taught when your biking,” McIlquham said. “You dump your bike. You don’t go side-on with full speed into another vehicle. So he rolled out and the car drove over him.”

 

I don't understand this either. I have never been taught this, and in fact have been told told just the opposite - that rubber and brakes will scrub off speed much faster than the axle nuts will. I think he is misinformed.

 

Jay

 

The officer probably said that as his way of saying that the motorcyclist was not at fault. I'm sure it makes the family feel better to know that he was doing all he could to avoid the accident; whether or not others agree with his methods. Either that or the officer is over seventy years old and that's the way he was taught.

 

---

[marcopolo]

I'd say that just because he's a cop doesn't necessarily mean that he knows much about riding a motorcycle. That said, the Ottawa police service does have motorcycle officers (who ride Harleys).

[yabadabapal]

Im sorry for the poor fella. Prayers to your family. RIP

 

As far as the comment below goes, I have no idea. There is an exception for every rule, and a rule for every exception.

 

"Police collisions investigator Wally McIlquham said the victim’s decision to drop his bike was textbook accident prevention".

[bikebits]

It's small comfort after a fatality, but hopefully the driver is apprehended and gets the maximum allowable under the law.

 

As far as the police officer's comment, you wouldn't have to be over 70 to have been taught to lay a bike down.

 

I took one of the first Canada Safety Council (Canadian MSF) courses in the mid 70's. The first curriculum they used came from the Canadian Armed Forces motorcycle rider's course. By the end of the course they had us riding up and down concrete stairs between levels of a terraced outdoor parking lot, riding over a special teeter totter, riding with a pillion (brave instructors!) and riding over a car tire as simulated road debris. And they taught us to 'lay a bike down".

 

Within a couple of years the course was reduced to the current parking lot road cone maneuvers.

[lvnvbiker]

The dump it and pray method used to be taught, back in the 50's and 60's, but it was taught. Bummer for the guy and his family, and add me to the list of those that think the driver should beshot on sight. You can't tell me "I did not notice that I ran someone over", hell I ran over a medium sized raccoon in a full size pick up and believe me I felf it. Punishment to fit the crime would involve strapping them in one of the obstacle cars at a monster truck show, I wonder if the driver of that truck would feel them in the car?

[BailyD]

Uhhhh, I was taught that in motor school in 2005?? Laying down my bike in training was the THE HARDEST thing I had to do in the course. I was high sided six times. On a good note, I did get the award for highest air! (7 feet up!.....then down!)

 

 

It is a terrible thing that driver did. I hope they catch up with them.

[Morrie]

David Hough writes that rubber stops faster than metal and plastic when sliding.

 

 

[T__]

Gawd, I sure hope they weren’t teaching laying a bike down as a collision avoidance.. I went through a civilian version of a police training course years ago & while laying a bike down was talked about it wasn’t taught in the course..

 

I was lead to believe the lay down was to use the bike as protection from bullets or other reasons not for avoiding a collision..

 

Twisty

 

 

 

[smiller]

You can't lay down a bike to avoid an accident because laying down a bike is an accident...

[upflying]

Uhhhh, I was taught that in motor school in 2005?? Laying down my bike in training was the THE HARDEST thing I had to do in the course. I was high sided six times. On a good note, I did get the award for highest air! (7 feet up!.....then down!)

 

 

It is a terrible thing that driver did. I hope they catch up with them.

I am really surprised to hear that. With the possibility of an OJI and a potential disability retirement, I would assume most LEO agencies would prohibit training activities that results in an injury by it's action.

I think CHP motor school used to teach laying down bikes but that was decades ago..50's and 60's.

[elkroeger]

You can't lay down a bike to avoid an accident because laying down a bike is an accident...

 

+1

 

I can see dumping the bike back in the old days... cast iron bikes, drum brakes, good likelihood of a dirt road even. But it's the last thing you'd catch me doing. I'll put my faith in those two big disks, the 8 (I think it's 8) hydraulic pistons, the ABS and that high dollar Metzler every time. Valve covers, foot pegs and motolights seem like crappy stopping devices to me. Is the theory that it works like a boat anchor or something?

 

My condolences to the family.

[AZKomet]

Sadly the US is rubbing off on our neighbors to the north.....

 

Like I said....

 

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20091129/us_time/08599194298600

[BailyD]

Uhhhh, I was taught that in motor school in 2005?? Laying down my bike in training was the THE HARDEST thing I had to do in the course. I was high sided six times. On a good note, I did get the award for highest air! (7 feet up!.....then down!)

 

 

It is a terrible thing that driver did. I hope they catch up with them.

I am really surprised to hear that. With the possibility of an OJI and a potential disability retirement, I would assume most LEO agencies would prohibit training activities that results in an injury by it's action.

I think CHP motor school used to teach laying down bikes but that was decades ago..50's and 60's.

 

I did not like the idea (and still do not) but I didn't want to be one of those guys who has to question the instructors. I did what I needed to do and moved on. Besides, there is no laying it down with the BWM because you NEED to lock up the rear brake.

[philbytx]

quote

To crack down on that way of thinking, Risete, Ashley's mother, has pushed for a number of measures in Florida - including the Ashley Nicole Valdes Alert System in Miami-Dade, which notifies the public (by cell phone for those who sign up for it) of the description of an alleged hit-and-run driver's car.

unquote

 

Which, in itself, is likely to cause more distraction issues...notifying cell phones??

[smiller]

Besides, there is no laying it down with the BWM because you NEED to lock up the rear brake.

I kid you not, I actually had a salesman at the local Honda dealer (the owner of the business no less) tell me that he refused to order the ABS option on bikes because ABS on a motorcycle is 'dangerous.' Why..? Because you can't lay the bike down to avoid an accident. I'm not kidding, he was dead serious.

 

[BailyD]

Besides, there is no laying it down with the BWM because you NEED to lock up the rear brake.

I kid you not, I actually had a salesman at the local Honda dealer (the owner of the business no less) tell me that he refused to order the ABS option on bikes because ABS on a motorcycle is 'dangerous.' Why..? Because you can't lay the bike down to avoid an accident. I'm not kidding, he was dead serious.

 

I cannot remember the exact reason the instructors gave for using this tactic. I think the wording was "crash imminent" situations. Those guys were unbelievable on their bikes, but I just couldn't get my head around the idea of laying it down. I certainly was not going to argue.

[MotorinLA]

Unfortunately, people do terrible things and get away with it every day. Karma does not seem to be doing its job... :frown:

 

As I recall the topic of laying it down has been addressed before. The statement, "I had to lay it down," never made much sense to me. You crashed your bike into the ground on purpose and now you want me to find the other driver (non-contact vehicle) at fault for your crash? Sorry, I don't think you'll find a lot of traffic officers in California taking your side on that one.

 

So, if you want to be found as the party at fault in a solo-vehicle traffic collision, by all means lay that baby down...

[AZRTRDR]

I always get a kick out of those that tell what they would have done in someone else's shoes, especially in panic situation.

Did the victim's bike have ABS or not. Was he at max breaking and did the rear tires hit a spot of oil/anti-freeze causing a total loss of traction while attempting to swerve. Happens a lot in the Phoenix area. Who knows what he was thinking?

Was he taught to lay the bike down to lessen the severity of the impact between his body and the car? This was taught for years.

A good many "experts" like to say what they would have done but don't when the decision is theirs to make in a fraction of a second.

I am not criticizing anyone here because we must use the incidents as a learn

ing tool but..

As to the hit & run laws, we just need to have the courts use the existing sentencing rules instead of using their own "standards". The laws are there, just apply them.

Phoenix P.D. still uses the old KZ-1000s with engine protection bars and no ABS, to teach the riders that they can survive a low-side. They are taught to lay it down for this reason and must do so to pass the course. This can be done on an ABS equipped m/c like a GL-1800. Just lean until you leverage the rear tire off of the ground.DAMHIK..

 

 

[tallman]

Besides, there is no laying it down with the BWM because you NEED to lock up the rear brake.

I kid you not, I actually had a salesman at the local Honda dealer (the owner of the business no less) tell me that he refused to order the ABS option on bikes because ABS on a motorcycle is 'dangerous.' Why..? Because you can't lay the bike down to avoid an accident. I'm not kidding, he was dead serious.

 

Would hope not, but probably.

[Indy Dave]

You crashed your bike into the ground on purpose and now you want me to find the other driver (non-contact vehicle) at fault for your crash? Sorry, I don't think you'll find a lot of traffic officers in California taking your side on that one.

 

So, if you want to be found as the party at fault in a solo-vehicle traffic collision, by all means lay that baby down...

 

If a crash is imminent, me thinks I'd rather lay it down then t-bone the vehicle/stationary object. Deciding who is or would be at fault would be the very least of my concerns at that point.

[SageRider]

If you have time to lay it down then you have time to accomplish a heck of a lot of braking!

[AviP]

My condolences to the family of the deceased.

 

If you have time to lay it down then you have time to accomplish a heck of a lot of braking!

 

+1. IMHO, the term "laid-it-down" is commonly heard among the inexperienced sport bike crowd as a way of showing they "controlled" their accident. I think it's a bunch of bull.

 

I personally think it's best to stay in the saddle and let the bike take the brunt of the damage. I had one bad accident back in 1995 when I didn't make a curve riding my ZX11. This was at 80 mph and I got on the binders but ran out of road and shoulder pretty fast. The bike flew off the road and dropped 8-10 ft down and quite a ways into the woods. I controlled my direction all the way until I was airborne. I tucked myself fully, locked my knees into the tank and aimed between the trees and made it. My helmet impacted the dash, my chest slammed into the fuel tank and my left knee had a minor puncture wound from a large tree I barely scraped.

 

When the fire chief and paramedics arrived they couldn't find "the body" and came back up the road to ask me. They were amazed when they found out I was the rider. I still remember the fire chief saying, "I have seen better looking motorcycle crashes in which the rider was dead". Of course, the bike was totalled and the fire dept had to cut 5 small trees just to remove the bike.

 

In this accident, I was lucky to have so little damage because I stayed with the bike. This happened in daylight but if it was night and I couldn't see where I was going to crash, I might have bailed too. But overall I prefer hanging in and letting the hard parts cushion the inevitable.

[Indy Dave]

I guess it depends on how fast you're going at impact and what you're going to hit.

 

In my one major crash 23 years ago when a car pulled out and then stopped upon seeing me, I was going to hit the car fast enough that somehow i got off the bike and skidded down the highway on my a$$, missing the car while the bike slid and got wedged under the car. I don't (and didn't at the time) know how all of that happened. Somewhere my mind felt that was a better alternative then slamming into the stopped car.

 

 

[SageRider]

Did you ever consider that maybe the only reason the bike hit the car was that there was no one controlling it? And that your missing the car was fluke luck as all directional control was lost while sliding about on the ground???

[Indy Dave]

NO. I would not have bailed if I was going to be able to stop in time. Ya know, it all happens so fast. I practice full-on emergency braking. If you could have stopped my GPZ without hitting the car, more power to you, Sir. If you couldn't have, I'd have been interested to know how your injuries would have stacked up against my scraped elbow.

[Polo]

I guess it depends on how fast you're going at impact and what you're going to hit.

 

In my one major crash 23 years ago when a car pulled out and then stopped upon seeing me, I was going to hit the car fast enough that somehow i got off the bike and skidded down the highway on my a$$, missing the car while the bike slid and got wedged under the car. I don't (and didn't at the time) know how all of that happened. Somewhere my mind felt that was a better alternative then slamming into the stopped car.

 

 

Shudda, coulda, woulda...

 

You're talking about it, you made the right decision.

 

We all have opinions, but only when you feel the blades scrapping your buttocks is when the real decision takes place.

[MrMCar]

" I had to lay the bike down" I read & hear this over and over again. What an asinine approach to avoiding an accident. Tantamount to being in a car, seeing an impending accident and just before you hit the other vehicle; you open the door & step out.

 

Now I'm cognizant that a car offers a whole lot more protection than a bike, but lets look at some basic laws of physics and common sense. Most bikes nowadays have ABS, which unfortunately does increase stopping distance some....but you can steer and choose a better point of impact and or possibly avoid the whole thing together? New pampers would be in order.

 

There is just NO way a human being sliding on jeans, leathers or gear that is more modern will stop in LESS distance than staying on the bike and hitting both brakes as hard as possible without skidding. You may still hit the object, but at less of a speed than if, you had "laid it down". Every MPH that you dial out of the impact has dramatic (positive) consequences of lessening the injury to you.

 

Not to mention what injuries can and will happen to you if after you lay it down, and you start to tumble?? Will you roll sideways, end over end and/or both? What are the chances of a very severe neck injury and or paralysis due to your neck being snapped around from the larger than normal moment arm (helmet weight added to your head) that it gives. Giving you the pumpkin effect.

 

I’m a returning rider with 10 years on the first stint and now having 8 years since my hiatus. I hope I never have to make that decision, and would I choose correctly when actually confronted with the same set of circumstances? Having been an instructor & racer (with the BMW CCA) and a shop owner there is just NO way anyone is going to convince me that the stopping distance will be shorter if I bail off the bike.

 

When teaching at the track we would drill in threshold braking, emergency braking etc…over and over again. I have to tell you it works. I have been in situations at maximum speed and come around a corner, only to find something right in my path, and having to do something about it. Very quick, I might add. The training so far has always brought about a more positive outcome. To that end every spring I return to the lot where I took my MSF BRC course. I practice some of the maneuvers and absolute braking exercises for an hour or two. This keeps some of that “oh my god” skill set locked up somewhere in the recesses of my brain. Hopefully if ever called upon at just that unfortunate moment, my brain will make the right move, and grab ALL of the braking I can muster to…..SLOW DOWN.

 

I agree with many others here, and it’s the old school guys that lay it down. My tires & brakes have a much higher coefficient of friction than ANY riding suit I can think of.

 

Don Fields

MrMCar

02 R1150 RT

95 K1100 LT

 

[Indy Dave]

" I had to lay the bike down" I read & hear this over and over again. What an asinine approach to avoiding an accident. Tantamount to being in a car, seeing an impending accident and just before you hit the other vehicle; you open the door & step out.

 

Now I'm cognizant that a car offers a whole lot more protection than a bike, but lets look at some basic laws of physics and common sense. Most bikes nowadays have ABS, which unfortunately does increase stopping distance some....but you can steer and choose a better point of impact and or possibly avoid the whole thing together? New pampers would be in order.

 

There is just NO way a human being sliding on jeans, leathers or gear that is more modern will stop in LESS distance than staying on the bike and hitting both brakes as hard as possible without skidding. You may still hit the object, but at less of a speed than if, you had "laid it down". Every MPH that you dial out of the impact has dramatic (positive) consequences of lessening the injury to you.

 

Not to mention what injuries can and will happen to you if after you lay it down, and you start to tumble?? Will you roll sideways, end over end and/or both? What are the chances of a very severe neck injury and or paralysis due to your neck being snapped around from the larger than normal moment arm (helmet weight added to your head) that it gives. Giving you the pumpkin effect.

 

I’m a returning rider with 10 years on the first stint and now having 8 years since my hiatus. I hope I never have to make that decision, and would I choose correctly when actually confronted with the same set of circumstances? Having been an instructor & racer (with the BMW CCA) and a shop owner there is just NO way anyone is going to convince me that the stopping distance will be shorter if I bail off the bike.

 

When teaching at the track we would drill in threshold braking, emergency braking etc…over and over again. I have to tell you it works. I have been in situations at maximum speed and come around a corner, only to find something right in my path, and having to do something about it. Very quick, I might add. The training so far has always brought about a more positive outcome. To that end every spring I return to the lot where I took my MSF BRC course. I practice some of the maneuvers and absolute braking exercises for an hour or two. This keeps some of that “oh my god” skill set locked up somewhere in the recesses of my brain. Hopefully if ever called upon at just that unfortunate moment, my brain will make the right move, and grab ALL of the braking I can muster to…..SLOW DOWN.

 

I agree with many others here, and it’s the old school guys that lay it down. My tires & brakes have a much higher coefficient of friction than ANY riding suit I can think of.

 

Don Fields

MrMCar

02 R1150 RT

95 K1100 LT

 

I'm not sure if you're just piling on Don or what. I don't think anyone has posted here that dumping or laying it down is the fastest way (or best way) to slow down your bike.

[MrMCar]

No NOT AT ALL. Just trying to get it very clear that it's a bad idea.

 

Don Fields

MrMCar

02 R 1150 RT

95 K1100LT

[ka5ysy]

"Police collisions investigator Wally McIlquham said the victim’s decision to drop his bike was textbook accident prevention".

 

 

Wally is obviously oblivious about the simple physics of rubber tires and braking in motorcycles, and swerving to avoid collisions.

 

Oddly, some police agencies still teach officers to "lay down the bike" rather than proper techniques.

 

The motorcyclist did a textbook uncontrolled slide into an accident with unfortunate results. He also probably was holding onto the bike when the crash happened, instead of turning loose.