ABS - I'm afraid!

[Sailorlite]

It's sprinkling this morning and the roads are wet, which has got me wondering what would actually happen if I slammed on the brakes on my '08 RT (as in an emergency stop)?

 

I know the ABS system is supposed to keep the front wheel (both wheels, actually) from locking up, but I foresee trouble if the front wheel should stop turning and start sliding. Is the ABS actually able to adapt to slippery roads, and can I forego testing this (I hope)?

[David]

You absolutely should test it in a non-emergency situation so that you'll be more confident in braking heavily should you need it.

 

Pick a slick spot, be straight up and down, keep your hands loose on the bars, and lock up the rear first. Don't "grab" it but just firmly activate it over a 2-second period until you feel it engage. Then slowly slowly disengage the rear brake. Do that several times.

 

Then do it with the front brake. Keep in mind that you'll need to activate the front more aggressively to activate the ABS.

 

When you pick a spot, make sure there's plenty of real estate ahead of you as using ABS like this will make for longer stopping distances than you might imagine.

[Tony_K]

Emergency stops in the rain? Slamming on the brakes in the rain??? You may need to re evaluate how you ride in the rain.

 

You should take your bike to a parking lot and learn how ABS works before you ever need it.

 

Don't be afraid of ABS. Be afraid that you don't know how to use it.

Educate yourself before you need it.

 

>Follow David's advice<

[Quinn]

You can also try for sand instead of rain to see what happens with ABS. Any any case, do it while pointed straight ahead. The few times I've engaged mine, it didn't seem any different than in my car.

 

---

 

 

[lvnvbiker]

It is a leap of faith, but it works flawlessly. I grabbed a handfull on a dirt road at work on mt RT a few times and was always amazed at the resulting smooth quick and stable stops.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

When I was a kid, my dad sometimes took us to an empty parking lot in wintertime and did donuts/slides with the station wagon, just for the helluvit.

 

Years later, as a college kit with a rear-wheel drive car, I found myself doing the same thing. I had friends who were scared to death of how their car behaved on slippery roads, but as a result of screwing around in a parking lot like that, I got used to it; the behavior of my car under limited-traction conditions was no longer a mystery.

 

Within a few days after buying my 1100RT ten years ago, I found a parking lot and started testing the ABS. In fairly short order I knew roughly what to expect from it, and that if I was out on the road the ABS would do its job and (probably) keep me from falling over.

 

Which brings us to the OP's query:

I know the ABS system is supposed to keep the front wheel (both wheels, actually) from locking up, but I foresee trouble if the front wheel should stop turning and start sliding. Is the ABS actually able to adapt to slippery roads, and can I forego testing this (I hope)?

 

Yes, there would be trouble if the wheel(s) stopped turning and started sliding.

 

This is exactly what the ABS is designed to prevent.

 

The ABS is able to adapt to slippery roads. Actually, it has no idea how slippery or grippy the roads are. The ABS computer simply applies the same rule no matter what the road conditions are: if the wheel is starting to lock up, it eases up on the brakes to get it spinning again, and then it reapplies them, continuing to watch for "impending lockup."

 

You should not forego testing this. If something is mysterious or intimidating - especially something as important as the braking behavior of your motorcycle - you absolutely should investigate it under controlled conditions. Get thee to an empty parking lot - on a wet day - and practice straight-line braking to see what it does.

[russell_bynum]

DO NOT FOREGO TESTING!!!

 

You need to understand how it works, what it feels like when it works, and how frickin LONG your stopping distance is if you just "grab a handful" and let ABS sort everything out.

[krussell]

Once you've gotten used to it in the parking lot in the 20 mph range, make sure you then practice stopping quickly at all speeds that you actually ride. If you regularly find your self riding at 80 mph, practice stopping quickly from that speed. Build gradually of course, and make sure you practice at 20, 40, 60, 80, etc.

 

Practice wet and dry too.

 

 

[flars]

Get cylinder head protectors for the bike. Wait for a good rainy day - not heavy rain, just enough to get the roads wet without flooding. Remove all the plastic from the bike including the mirrors. Wear knee pads and good armored riding gear. Wear boots with good ankle protection. Make sure your health, life, and bike insurance is current, and you have all your shots. Sit inside and have a beer until the rain stops and the streets dry out. Then go ride.

Actually, practicing in a parking lot will definitely give you lots mo' faith in the ABS. Try it in the dry first, then the wet. I have had the ABS engage several times when I had to stop faster than normal and I hit all that crap in the middle of the lane.

[BailyD]

Try it, it's fun! I just tried mine on the heavliy leaf covered road....that was wet (in moderation). It worked fine on my BMW and my HD.

[tallman]

Practice good.

Agrred.

 

AArrgghh,

IMO, in most circumstance, for most riders, in wet conditions, ABS, even grabbing a handfull, will produce shorter stopping distance and prevent lockup.

Beyond my opinion, test data on BMW and Honda systems indicate that in wet conditions (the OP) that is true.

Most recent Honda tests had professional riders and the ABS stopped better by huge margins in wet conditions.

(I'll limit it to that, but I recall that it took 4 tries for pros to get a one foot advantge over the ABS in dry/ideal conditions).

 

Don't have it in front of me but I think the chart was on page 46 of the May Cycle World.

For wet, smooth conditions.

Using rear brake only, 60 to zero, 191' w/ABS, 335' w/standard brakes.

30 to zero 50' ABS vs 82' standard brakes.

Using front and rear brakes, 60-0 ABS 147', standard 155'.

 

Not looking to restart an ABS/proficiency thread.

However, if some one has real world data in wet conditions showing that ABS will result in longer stopping distance compared to non-ABS in same conditions, please link it.

I'm always trying to find out more about this subject.

 

 

[VinnyR11]

DO NOT FOREGO TESTING!!!

 

You need to understand how it works, what it feels like when it works, and how frickin LONG your stopping distance is if you just "grab a handful" and let ABS sort everything out.

 

That's kind of exactly what I do, and what I've been taught on the bike, in a car, and on the track. For emergency stopping distances with a proper ABS system it's foot through the floorboard on a car, or "grab a handful" on a bike to get the best stopping distances.

 

I understand how ABS works (used to sell semiconductors to all the major mfg's), so what am I missing?

[T__]

It's sprinkling this morning and the roads are wet, which has got me wondering what would actually happen if I slammed on the brakes on my '08 RT (as in an emergency stop)?

 

I know the ABS system is supposed to keep the front wheel (both wheels, actually) from locking up, but I foresee trouble if the front wheel should stop turning and start sliding. Is the ABS actually able to adapt to slippery roads, and can I forego testing this (I hope)?

 

Sailorlite, as mentioned in the posts above a (proper working) ABS will not allow either your front or rear wheel to lock up on a slippery surface.. The algorithms in the ABS controller watch the wheel decel rate & release braking to either or both wheels if it senses impending lock up is possible (it doesn’t wait until lockup then release the wheel as the re-spool up time would be a very hazardous thing)..

 

I think you will find the ABS system on about any modern motorcycle is a great thing to behold.. As long as the bike IS STANDING STRAIGHT UP during the ABS stop!. What you have to keep in mind though is: the ABS is programmed to work in the same way normal braking operates (without the bike leaned over).. If you have the bike leaned over on a slippery surface you have already used up most of your tire traction so the chance of ABS preventing wheel lock or loss of traction goes w-a-y down..

 

Keep in mind the ABS system has no angle or bank angle sensor so it has no idea you have used up most of your tire traction due to leaning the bike,, will it (ABS) help if you brake hard while leaned over? Sure,, will it always prevent wheel lock up & tire slide out? probably not..

 

The most important computer on ANY braking system including an ABS system is sitting right there between your ears..

 

 

Twisty

 

[Firefight911]

 

The most important computer on ANY braking system including an ABS system is sitting right there between your ears..

 

 

Twisty

 

Best statement concerning this yet!

[russell_bynum]

I understand how ABS works (used to sell semiconductors to all the major mfg's), so what am I missing?

 

Physics.

 

Remember, there's more to braking potential that just the calipers and rotors. The suspension plays a huge role in it as well.

 

"Grab a handful" and you'll overwhelm the compression damping on the front shock, bottom out the front suspension, lose traction, and engage ABS prematurely.

 

Don't take my word for it....go try it where you just "grab a handful" and one where you brake as if you didn't have ABS.

 

Then there's the issue of becoming reliant on technology that may fail, or may not be on the bike that you're riding at the moment.

 

ABS will bail you out if you just "grab a handful" (assuming you're upright, of course...if the bike is leaned over, all bets are off), but IMO it's better to always practice and act as if you don't have it.

[Hollow Road Rider]

Thanks. I am really glad to see someone else start off with "I'm afraid!" I don't feel so afraid now. All the above replies are right on.

[VinnyR11]

I understand how ABS works (used to sell semiconductors to all the major mfg's), so what am I missing?

 

Physics.

 

Remember, there's more to braking potential that just the calipers and rotors. The suspension plays a huge role in it as well.

 

"Grab a handful" and you'll overwhelm the compression damping on the front shock, bottom out the front suspension, lose traction, and engage ABS prematurely.

 

Don't take my word for it....go try it where you just "grab a handful" and one where you brake as if you didn't have ABS.

 

Then there's the issue of becoming reliant on technology that may fail, or may not be on the bike that you're riding at the moment.

 

ABS will bail you out if you just "grab a handful" (assuming you're upright, of course...if the bike is leaned over, all bets are off), but IMO it's better to always practice and act as if you don't have it.

 

OK, I think we may agree here. I was talking specifically of emergency stopping. I agree with the above for normal braking.

 

For minimum emergency stopping distances you should "grab a handful". That's the quickest way for 95% of riders to stop if your ABS is going to engage.

 

At other times, you don't want to get into the ABS unless necessary.

[tallman]

I also agree, yet, I know of no one who has posted that their suspension was overwhelmed when riding on the street and activating the ABS.

I'm not saying it couldn't happen, just didn't ever have anyone come to the dealership with a wreck, or a story about losing control due to suspension reactions when braking in an upright position.

If that has happened, I hope the person will relate the circumstances.

Bike, model year, mileage, road conditions, weather conditions, experience, tire condition, and what happened.

 

[Firefight911]

I also agree, yet, I know of no one who has posted that their suspension was overwhelmed when riding on the street and activating the ABS.

I'm not saying it couldn't happen, just didn't ever have anyone come to the dealership with a wreck, or a story about losing control due to suspension reactions when braking in an upright position.

If that has happened, I hope the person will relate the circumstances.

Bike, model year, mileage, road conditions, weather conditions, experience, tire condition, and what happened.

 

If you've activated your ABS, regardless of circumstance, you've overwhelmed something, be it as a result of suspension action or otherwise. The result of ABS having to step in is a result of more brake pressure for a given situation. Most often, this is a combination result of a poor traction situation with too much/too quick a brake lever application which causes an increase of brake pressure. In reality, you can have an exceptional traction situation and still activate your ABS from too quick a lever action (grabbing a handful).

 

I doubt most people will tell you or, for that matter, be able to tell you that they had excellent traction and grabbed a handful of brake and, as a result, they went down. That's like asking someone if they got a good deal on a vehicle purchase. "Well, actually, no, I paid $10,000 too much for it and I feel great!" The response will almost always be that there was oil, sand, water, etc. in the road that caused the poor traction situation and, in turn, caused the ABS to activate.

[lvnvbiker]

I will admit to trail braking a bit to ham fisted on one occasion causing the front to go away and resulting in a trip to the Urgent Care for some stiches. And I will also admit that I have ham fisted the front on an emergency stop while being perfectly upright and losing the front on a big cruiser when an idiot cager suddenly filled the braking zone right in front of me and rear ended the car that was stopped in front of me. I did a short stoppie on a HD bagger for a second then whacked into that moron ( she did me a favor by being the catalist that got me riding BMWs and meeting all of you guys )and can say honestly that the ABS could have saved my bacon in one of those situations most likely. But as Phil says, if you have got the ABS to kick in you have overwhelmed something. It is a great safety feature and when I get another full street bike, or the new bike for the wife it will have it for sure.

[tallman]

Phil,

What I'm leading to is that despite this "overwhelming", in wet conditions, w/ABS, you'll have shorter stopping distances.

In most other circumstances too, unless the bike is leaned over.

I'm wondering why I should avoid using ABS as quickly as possible, even if it overwhelms my suspension, because I'll still get shorter stopping distance, when upright, in wet conditions.

I'm not saying that is what I do, just asking for evidence, test results, verifiable tales.

I've "grabbed a handfull", in wet conditions, when upright, and the bike stopped safely.

Not sure that it would have been the same w/standard brakes, no matter how much practice I had done.

 

[Firefight911]

A previous thread that is relevant to the topic -

 

LINKY

[dhanson]

My test area growing up was at the local dump, lots of dirt road and big areas of nothing. Course those are all fenced and gated now days, but in the 60s we could go there just about anytime. Learned to power slide my 56 chevy.

 

Later learned to slide the superglide 74in, lots of fun but learned a bunch also.

 

MX in the 70s was my most fun.

 

Bottom line, practice with your bike, both in sliding and stopping. I don't do radical stuff on pavement tho, just straight line stopping, but parking lot manuvering is good to learn.

 

My Tiger is NON-ABS, while on the track, the instructor asked those that had ABS to switch it off if possible.

[motoguy128]

When I was a kid, my dad sometimes took us to an empty parking lot in wintertime and did donuts/slides with the station wagon, just for the helluvit.

 

Years later, as a college kit with a rear-wheel drive car, I found myself doing the same thing. I had friends who were scared to death of how their car behaved on slippery roads, but as a result of screwing around in a parking lot like that, I got used to it; the behavior of my car under limited-traction conditions was no longer a mystery.

 

Within a few days after buying my 1100RT ten years ago, I found a parking lot and started testing the ABS. In fairly short order I knew roughly what to expect from it, and that if I was out on the road the ABS would do its job and (probably) keep me from falling over.

 

Which brings us to the OP's query:

I know the ABS system is supposed to keep the front wheel (both wheels, actually) from locking up, but I foresee trouble if the front wheel should stop turning and start sliding. Is the ABS actually able to adapt to slippery roads, and can I forego testing this (I hope)?

 

Yes, there would be trouble if the wheel(s) stopped turning and started sliding.

 

This is exactly what the ABS is designed to prevent.

 

The ABS is able to adapt to slippery roads. Actually, it has no idea how slippery or grippy the roads are. The ABS computer simply applies the same rule no matter what the road conditions are: if the wheel is starting to lock up, it eases up on the brakes to get it spinning again, and then it reapplies them, continuing to watch for "impending lockup."

 

You should not forego testing this. If something is mysterious or intimidating - especially something as important as the braking behavior of your motorcycle - you absolutely should investigate it under controlled conditions. Get thee to an empty parking lot - on a wet day - and practice straight-line braking to see what it does.

 

It must be and "engineer" thing. I've doen the same thing wanted to see what hte car or bike could do.

 

As for ABS. The first thing you need to do is remove your fear of locking the front wheel. its' not and dnagerous as it sounds. Locking up the front is perfectly fine as long as you're going i na stright line. that's the key. Training yourself to understand the limits of traction in different situations.

 

I've always recommended getting on a mountian bike, and locking up the front and rear wheels in gravel and get a feel for what will happen. When I was a kid, I rode my bicycle on frozen lakes nad creeks in MI. If you really want to learn about traction, ride a bicycle on ice, without studded tires and and see how fast you can accelerate, stop and how sharp you can corner. Its' even more fun in snow. FYI - ride with flat pedals... don't sue toe clips or clipless pedals on ice or snow. its' too easy ot fall before you can clip-out wihh those types of surfaces.

 

As theres have said, testing your ABS on gravel or sand is the easy way to get a feel for it.

 

As for traction in the rain, you'll be suprised at how hard you can stop. I've done a trackday in the rain when I had a sportbike. It's interesting how a bike behaves when it's hydroplaning at 110mph through puddles. Fortunately, the rear wheel hydroplanes first despite riding through the track of the front.

[nrp]

Even high mileage riders will only have milliseconds of experience with locked wheels. You'd have to be a fast learner to compete with ABS.

[Boffin]

Even high mileage riders will only have milliseconds of experience with locked wheels. You'd have to be a fast learner to compete with ABS.

 

Not so. If you are upright in a straight line you can lock the front for several feet. The back is even easier to slide for long distances.

 

Andy

[nrp]

Even high mileage riders will only have milliseconds of experience with locked wheels. You'd have to be a fast learner to compete with ABS.

 

Not so. If you are upright in a straight line you can lock the front for several feet. The back is even easier to slide for long distances.

Figure it out - that's milliseconds.

[GordonB]

One thing that has not been addressed for the OP is proper riding techniques on SoCal roadways in the rain in regards to accelerating and turning at intersections, freeway on ramps, etc.. Watch out for the manhole covers, Botts Dots, and oil buildup. Oil buildup at this time of year is at a maximum and roadways will be slick for the first couple of rains. I think these are a bigger threat than stopping. IMHO.

[russell_bynum]

Even high mileage riders will only have milliseconds of experience with locked wheels. You'd have to be a fast learner to compete with ABS.

 

Huh??

[tallman]

Practice

 

 

 

 

 

 

makes perfect

[ka5ysy]

When I first received my R1200R, I went out on the River Road south of the LSU campus where the bicycle team has a measured timing area with 100 foot marks to see how the ABS worked. I accelerated to 60mph and did just what we teach not to do... grabbed a handful of front brake and stomped on the rear brake when passing one of the start marks. Result of all this was that it was like making a carrier landing... instantly it felt like an anchor dropped and the eyeballs kind of popped out like in the comics. The bike stopped in 105 feet without any skid or excitement at all. I did this about 6 more times with the same result.

 

Wet and sand areas do well too when stopping straight. If you are in a turn and hit sand/wet patches things can get out of hand even with ABS. I got dumped on my head trail braking because the abs turned loose at the wrong time.

 

Only real problem you should be aware of is this: The non-switched ABS system does not allow brakes to function if you are going downhill on a loose dirt/gravel roadway. Engine braking only and proper throttle control can save this situation, along with dirt-bike steering by standing on the pegs and shifting your weight.

 

ABS is a tool that will save the bacon when you need it !

[cpallen]

One other point about ABS (which also applies to cars) is that because your tires are not locked up in a skid, you are better able to steer around a hazard - so beware of common problem #2 - target fixation.

 

Courtney in Seattle

09 RT

[philbytx]

quote

One other point about ABS (which also applies to cars) is that because your tires are not locked up in a skid, you are better able to steer around a hazard - so beware of common problem #2 - target fixation.

unquote

 

The "steer around a hazard" ONLY applies to cages. If you don't believe me, try it on your bike - but you have been warned !

[russell_bynum]

 

The "steer around a hazard" ONLY applies to cages. If you don't believe me, try it on your bike - but you have been warned !

 

[SageRider]

When I first received my R1200R, I went out on the River Road south of the LSU campus where the bicycle team has a measured timing area with 100 foot marks to see how the ABS worked. I accelerated to 60mph and did just what we teach not to do... grabbed a handful of front brake and stomped on the rear brake when passing one of the start marks. Result of all this was that it was like making a carrier landing... instantly it felt like an anchor dropped and the eyeballs kind of popped out like in the comics. The bike stopped in 105 feet without any skid or excitement at all. I did this about 6 more times with the same result.

So did you try to accomplish the same thing getting as close to threshold braking (without activating ABS) as possible?

[cpallen]

 

The "steer around a hazard" ONLY applies to cages. If you don't believe me, try it on your bike - but you have been warned !

 

 

I have twice, and it works. Not saying you can turn a corner or even execute an effective swerve, but you can change your trajectory.

 

I had a woman pull out in front of me from a side street, and then stop. I hit the brakes and could feel the ABS (1999 Honda ST1100 also with linked brakes) actuating from sand or gravel on the road. I focused my attention to staying on the brakes and behind the car and ended up stopping behind her, about even with the center of the car - not center punching her passenger door where I would have hit had I not looked away.

 

 

[Little_Brit]

The most important moment of any emergency braking situation is the first few milli-seconds. You are travelling more distance per second before you hit the brakes than at any other time during the stop. The more speed you can scrub off at high speed the further away from the reason to stop you will be!

 

In other words brake hard imediately, let the ABS sort everything else out, and as long as you stay reasonably upright you'll stop as quickly as it is realistically possible to do.

 

I hope that all makes sense...

 

Derek

 

 

[Hollow Road Rider]

Oops, I am embarrassed to admit this here, but after this subject came up a few weeks ago I went out and tried the ABS on my 1150RT.

Things were OK on the asphalt, but when I got to the gravel road I had some little mini lock-ups. I kept trying over and over until I thought I understood it. Then I tried a "handful" on the gravel from about 45 mph. This time I came to a stop so suddenly on the right crown of the township road that the bike just started leaning before I was ready, and down she went -- from a full stop.

When someone finally drove by and helped me get her upright I had to lie, and told him I was avoiding a deer.

[T__]

Hollow Rd. Rider, that’s not the normal on a GRAVEL road.. As a rule ABS brakes add stopping distance on gravel or loose sand as there is no piling or packing of road material in front of the tires..

 

Your experience seems more in line with a hard packed clay road or a gravel road that has had most or all of the gravel worked off the road surface leaving a fairly high traction clay or dirt surface..

 

 

Twisty

 

[Quinn]

Well, at least you missed the deer.

In practice, you can let up a little when coming to a full stop just like normal. In panic situation, you may just be glad you missed the deer. Isn't it amazing how quickly it does stop?

 

 

[Little_Brit]

Many moons ago I had the use of a K75s with ABS. I thought I'd see what happened doing an emergency stop from 60 mph in the dry.

 

Nothing!

 

The bike just stopped; I was then enveloped in the cloud of smoke from the tyres. I learned that I could stop a lot harder than I could ever have imagined before.

 

Ironically I have only now just bought my first bike with ABS, a 2009 R1200GS. The brakes are superb but I hope not to have to challenge the ABS to often...

 

Derek

[russell_bynum]

The most important moment of any emergency braking situation is the first few milli-seconds. You are travelling more distance per second before you hit the brakes than at any other time during the stop. The more speed you can scrub off at high speed the further away from the reason to stop you will be!

 

In other words brake hard imediately, let the ABS sort everything else out, and as long as you stay reasonably upright you'll stop as quickly as it is realistically possible to do.

 

I hope that all makes sense...

 

Derek

 

 

That is not good advice. For two reasons:

 

1. One thing that ABS, even the latest and best ABS can't do, is violate the laws of physics. There is much more to a bike's stopping potential than just the brakes. The tires play a role of course, and so does the suspension. Jam on the brakes as hard and as fast as you can, and you'll overwhelm the compression damping circuit on the front shock/forks. That causes the shock/fork to bottom out...which means the front suspension is no longer working and you have less available traction. Sure...ABS will kick in and do its thing, and that's certainly better than not braking at all, but you're better off if you bring the brakes up to full pressure smoothly over the course of about one second.

 

2. Given that you do what you practice, practicing something that only works on certain bikes is not a good idea because one day you'll be on a different bike that doesn't have that system and you'll be up the creek.

 

You should always practice braking properly using good technique. When, in an emergency situation with lots of different inputs flying at you all at once, your technique waivers and you use too much pressure, then your passive safety systems (ABS) can help bail you out.

[T__]

Russell, the BWM with telelever front suspension has very little dive under extreme braking.. Actually the little dive that it does have is designed into the front control arm geometry.. BMW has a pretty aggressive anti-dive angularity built in,, the harder you stop the more the front anti-dive lifts the front (just like an automobile front suspension)..

 

That is one reason that BMW saw a benefit in the original design I-ABS system & it’s very quick initial pressure build & short lever travel.. As Derek mentioned the faster you can bleed speed off at high speed the better for stopping distance.. The down side of this is rear wheel lift & I-ABS adaptive braking watched rear wheel decel rates to prevent rear wheel lift..

 

Personally I’m not that fond of the BMW telelever anti-dive geometry as the bike brakes too flat with little dive so doesn’t feel like my conventional front fork equipped bikes but it does work good..

 

Twisty

 

[Bernie]

Both of my RT dive when braking hard with the front brake.

I know they do not dive as much as normal forks, but they do dive.

I have a performance award to prove it.

[russell_bynum]

Russell, the BWM with telelever front suspension has very little dive under extreme braking.. Actually the little dive that it does have is designed into the front control arm geometry.. BMW has a pretty aggressive anti-dive angularity built in,, the harder you stop the more the front anti-dive lifts the front (just like an automobile front suspension)..

 

That is one reason that BMW saw a benefit in the original design I-ABS system & it’s very quick initial pressure build & short lever travel.. As Derek mentioned the faster you can bleed speed off at high speed the better for stopping distance.. The down side of this is rear wheel lift & I-ABS adaptive braking watched rear wheel decel rates to prevent rear wheel lift..

 

Personally I’m not that fond of the BMW telelever anti-dive geometry as the bike brakes too flat with little dive so doesn’t feel like my conventional front fork equipped bikes but it does work good..

 

Twisty

 

On my R1100RT, with telelever front-end, the bike stopped in less distance if I braked properly than if I just grabbed a handful and jammed the brakes on as hard and as fast as I could. I could demonstrate that all day long.

 

The difference was not nearly as pronounced as it is on a bike with conventional forks, but it did make a difference.

 

Personally, I don't think there's any advantage of getting the system up to pressure any faster than a person could without servo assist, and shorter lever travel just made it even harder to modulate the system with any finesse. BMW agrees since they eventually dumped that system.

 

But even if BMW's were immune to the laws of physics, there's still the issue of learning bad habits which may bite you in the ass someday if you ride a bike that doesn't have the same setup.

[Little_Brit]

Re "not good advice" Russell.

 

I beg to differ. We are talking about a bike with a decent ABS system here.

 

The point I was trying to make regarding the K75s brakes was that they taught me how phenominal the available traction is on a good sound road surface i.e. the grakes were way more powerfull than I thought possible.

 

Further, with a good ABS system, and any ABS system on current Euro-spec bike is damned good, you can't "overwhelm" the suspension - the instant loss of traction approaches the brake pressure is automatically dropped for the minimum time required for re-gaining traction when maximum force will be re-applied until you either stop or chose to let off the brakes. The suspension charecteristics obviously determine how much traction is available but I have yet to read a verifyable account of anybody out braking an ABS equiped bike with a similar non-ABS bike on a one attempt stop! In an emergency you don't get a practice run!!!

 

And I repeat the most important time to loose speed is while your are at high speed.

 

Of course like everyone else here I hope never to have to put any of this into use but you just never know when you might need to so as others have said practice.

 

Safe riding in 2010.

 

Derek

[BanjoBoy]

Russell, the BWM with telelever front suspension has very little dive under extreme braking.. Actually the little dive that it does have is designed into the front control arm geometry.. BMW has a pretty aggressive anti-dive angularity built in,, the harder you stop the more the front anti-dive lifts the front (just like an automobile front suspension)..

 

That is one reason that BMW saw a benefit in the original design I-ABS system & it’s very quick initial pressure build & short lever travel.. As Derek mentioned the faster you can bleed speed off at high speed the better for stopping distance.. The down side of this is rear wheel lift & I-ABS adaptive braking watched rear wheel decel rates to prevent rear wheel lift..

 

Personally I’m not that fond of the BMW telelever anti-dive geometry as the bike brakes too flat with little dive so doesn’t feel like my conventional front fork equipped bikes but it does work good..

 

Twisty

 

On my R1100RT, with telelever front-end, the bike stopped in less distance if I braked properly than if I just grabbed a handful and jammed the brakes on as hard and as fast as I could. I could demonstrate that all day long.

 

The difference was not nearly as pronounced as it is on a bike with conventional forks, but it did make a difference.

 

Personally, I don't think there's any advantage of getting the system up to pressure any faster than a person could without servo assist, and shorter lever travel just made it even harder to modulate the system with any finesse. BMW agrees since they eventually dumped that system.

 

But even if BMW's were immune to the laws of physics, there's still the issue of learning bad habits which may bite you in the ass someday if you ride a bike that doesn't have the same setup.

Hummm, very interesting; my ST doesn't hardly dive at all while hard on the brakes. (Probably due to much less weight than an RT?)

I think the main thing here is that a lot of people really don't want to learn proper braking technique. They're lazy, and I think ABS is good for the majority of riders.

It takes a lot of practice to get your braking right with conventional forks because of the dive, but conventional forks also give you much better feed back of what the font tire's doing.

This is why doing "stoppies" is good practice because in this situation you want to bottom the forks ASAP. But in threshold braking, you want to do as much braking as possible without bottoming the forks, and that takes practice (and proper suspension set up, front and rear) most people really don't want to deal with.

BMW does have a great touring bike system (Even though it's not for everybody) with their low CG, Tele/Duo lever front suspension, and anti-lock brakes. It's real easy for most people to stop quickly.

Lets face it, not everybody's Russell Bynum!

[tallman]

Thank goodness.

 

[Dan M]

In a panic situation especially on wet pavement it an save you. The trade off at least on my 04 is when approaching a bumpy corner or intersection it releases too much, greatly increasing stopping distance. Same thing happens on gravel. I feel in those situations you are better off without it if you can keep your head and not panic.

[Skywagon]

I don't practice hard braking very much, but every year when I go through state inspection, they make me get up to 30 mph and stop as fast as I can in a straight line. It is smooth pavement. I grab full brakes and it is all I can do to keep from going over the front. The rear wheel stays on the ground just fine. I usually have to let go of the front to stay attached to the bike. Great, unbelievable stopping power. I can't imagine staying on the bike doing that at 70+ mph...and I top 215lbs...

 

What speed do you guys practice maximum braking?