Cash for Grades

[Ken H.]

This is wrong on so many levels I don't hardly know where to start! (BTW the school board nixed the plan and she resigned today, thank gawd. What was she thinking!?!)

 

"By The Associated Press

 

GOLDSBORO, N.C. - A middle school in North Carolina is selling test scores to students in a bid to raise money.

 

The News&Observer of Raleigh reported Wednesday a parent advisory council at Rosewood Middle School came up with the fundraising plan after last year's chocolate sale flopped.

 

The school will sell 20 test points to students for $20.

 

Students can add 10 extra points to each of two tests of their choice. The extra points could take a student from a "B" to an "A" on those tests or from a failing grade to a passing grade.

 

Principal Susie Shepherd says it's not enough of an impact to change a student's overall grades.

 

Officials at the state Department of Public Instruction say exchanging grades for money teaches children the wrong lessons."

[ltljohn]

I saw this the other day and wondered when it would show up here. One of the most ridiculous things I have ever seen.

[Nice n Easy Rider]

A Recent Update:

 

Goldsboro, N.C. — The principal who initiated a fundraiser in which middle school students could exchange donations for test points has decided to retire, the Wayne County Public School system announced Friday.

 

District leaders denounced the fundraiser at Rosewood Middle School and forced the school to return all the money raised.

 

Rosewood Principal Susie Shepherd is on leave for the remainder of the month and will retire effective December 1.

 

Superintendent Dr. Steven Taylor said Shepherd informed him of her decision when the two met Thursday as part of the investigation into the fundraiser.

 

Shepherd told her staff of her plans Thursday; a letter will go out to parents Friday, the district said.

[David]

Is that all that different from selling carbon credits? Money for the opportunity to sin?

[Albert]

Anybody check Bernie Madoff's diploma?

[russell_bynum]

Is that all that different from selling carbon credits? Money for the opportunity to sin?

 

[Vicious_Cycler]

I'm not so sure I see the problem. A student who is self-motivated to do well will do the necessary work regardless of a program like this (see Zen and the Art... ). Others likely won't give a darn anyway.

 

My suspicion is that there are those who will find this patently unfair b/c some students have the opportunity to buy points and others do not. Those who can pay can do so b/c they have oppressed others. Real fairness can only be achieved by least common denominator.

 

Aspire to mediocrity! If you excel, you're doing it at expense of others.

 

How about this plan? A means-based program where students whose families can afford to pay must also pay for a less affluent student's points or they will suffer a points penalty. Funds are raised for the school and no one has to feel motivated to improve their lot in life.

[Tank]

Officer, If I donate 50 bucks to Rosewood Middle School, do I get 20 miles an hour off this speeding ticket

[Vicious_Cycler]

Officer, If I donate 50 bucks to Rosewood Middle School, do I get 20 miles an hour off this speeding ticket

 

St. Peter's Basilica was financed by the sale of indulgences...now we're buying them from the state. Hmm...

[scaudy]

I'm not so sure I see the problem. A student who is self-motivated to do well will do the necessary work regardless of a program like this (see Zen and the Art... ). Others likely won't give a darn anyway.

 

My suspicion is that there are those who will find this patently unfair b/c some students have the opportunity to buy points and others do not. Those who can pay can do so b/c they have oppressed others. Real fairness can only be achieved by least common denominator.

 

Aspire to mediocrity! If you excel, you're doing it at expense of others.

 

How about this plan? A means-based program where students whose families can afford to pay must also pay for a less affluent student's points or they will suffer a points penalty. Funds are raised for the school and no one has to feel motivated to improve their lot in life.

 

I half heard about this earlier in the week and thought it must have been some joke or something. The problem with it is that a diploma represents an achievment of knowledge gained and paying for it would not require you to gain the knowledge. Just think about this when you get the doctor who bought his medical degree doing your heart surgery....

[Ken H.]

I'm not so sure I see the problem.

Problem? The problem is that it reinforces the idea that money can buy everything. It reinforces the idea in impressionable minds that it’s more important to be rich than smart. It contributes to the decline of the education of our youth which contributes to the decline of the country and its standing in the world. And as result the standard of living of the generations to come. It contributes to the stereotype of educators. The problem is that it totally undermines the idea that the educational system is suppose to educate and reward for successfully being educated. The ‘grade’ is meaningless, what you learn is everything. The education of the populous is fundamental to the success of the society and dumb_ss tricks like this go against all of that. That's the problem!

[Vicious_Cycler]

I half heard about this earlier in the week and thought it must have been some joke or something. The problem with it is that a diploma represents an achievment of knowledge gained and paying for it would not require you to gain the knowledge. Just think about this when you get the doctor who bought his medical degree doing your heart surgery....

 

As regards postgraduate and professional training I agree, middle school not so much.

[Ken H.]

Is that all that different from selling carbon credits? Money for the opportunity to sin?

I’m not sure it’s really an apples to apples comparison, but I do think the whole being able to buy carbon credits thing is total BS too.

[EffBee]

I'm not so sure I see the problem.

Problem? The problem is that it reinforces the idea that money can buy everything. It reinforces the idea in impressionable minds that it’s more important to be rich than smart. It contributes to the decline of the education of our youth which contributes to the decline of the country and its standing in the world. And as result the standard of living of the generations to come. It contributes to the stereotype of educators. The problem is that it totally undermines the idea that the educational system is suppose to educate and reward for successfully being educated. The ‘grade’ is meaningless, what you learn is everything. The education of the populous is fundamental to the success of the society and dumb_ss tricks like this go against all of that. That's the problem!

 

OK. You're talking about truth, honor, integrity, nose-to-the-grindstone hard work, accountability, and disdain for the easy way out. No redistribution of anything, no victicratic blame game, no pass/fail, no social promotion, no everyone-gets-a-trophy Little League, no "it's better to feel good than to do well." Welcome to my side of the center line.

[Vicious_Cycler]

I'm not so sure I see the problem.

Problem? The problem is that it reinforces the idea that money can buy everything. It reinforces the idea in impressionable minds that it’s more important to be rich than smart. It contributes to the decline of the education of our youth which contributes to the decline of the country and its standing in the world. And as result the standard of living of the generations to come. It contributes to the stereotype of educators. The problem is that it totally undermines the idea that the educational system is suppose to educate and reward for successfully being educated. The ‘grade’ is meaningless, what you learn is everything. The education of the populous is fundamental to the success of the society and dumb_ss tricks like this go against all of that. That's the problem!

 

I wonder if you're not just oppossed to money-based systems. Being smart is great, being rich ain't bad, and getting rich b/c you're smart is the best! Now I'm not rich but I work for some rich people, those who got rich from their daddies are very different from those who came from more pedestrian backgrounds. I want kids to have the opportunity to go from rags to riches. This could be just another motivator.

 

The decline of public education happened long before this. The devaluation of borders, language, and culture has done more harm than any shenanigans such as this. Being taught that individuals and the U.S. as a nation should feel guilty for acting in one's own self-interest decreases our standard of living. Education administrators have done more than anything else to contribute to stereotypes. Teachers have little choice but to toe the politically correct line drawn by the thought police. The U.S.(anyway) public education system is not about education and reward as much as it is about bringing the citizens into compliance and conformity to the prevailing Utopian ideal.

 

I agree, the grade is meaningless, the motivated will learn regardless, the apathetic will remain as they are, and the truly disadvantaged will be motivated to work harder so their kids don't have to do without.

[RonStewart]

Marks are supposed to reflect the acheivement of the student in the course in question. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

The now-effectively-retired principal forgot this basic principle.

[John Ranalletta]

Officer, If I donate 50 bucks to Rosewood Middle School, do I get 20 miles an hour off this speeding ticket

My wife got a speeding ticket in Indy a couple of months ago. For an extra $70, the ticket was wiped out, no report was made to the insurance company and no points came off. It's blackmail, pure and simple.

 

Instead of just paying for grades, let parents buy their kids out of school entirely - just like early wars where one could pay someone else to fight.

 

That would free up space in schools for students and parents who value education.

[John Ranalletta]

Marks are supposed to reflect the acheivement of the student in the course in question. Nothing more. Nothing less.

So how does one explain grading on the curve?

[John Ranalletta]

From a friend:

 

On Nov 10th, in 1647 Massachusetts

passed the first compulsory school

attendance law in the colonies.

 

It would be hard to point to any

single measure more harmful to public

morality, intelligence, & rationality

than public education.

[Vicious_Cycler]

Marks are supposed to reflect the acheivement of the student in the course in question. Nothing more. Nothing less.

 

The now-effectively-retired principal forgot this basic principle.

 

I'm not necessarily in favor of this particular fund-raiser. However, I'm skeptical of the reasons for the condemnations of it. Grades should reflect achievement but they don't. Bell curves, cultural weighting, passing on the troublemaker, etc. have all completely shifted the education paradigm to which we were accustomed. That principal forgot the new utopian ideal.

 

My suspected reasons for such condemantion: it teaches that being rich is an advantage, it teaches that while equal we may not be the same, it may cause someone to feel bad about their situation. Bad enough that they may to want to improve on their own without the state's direction.

[RonStewart]

Marks are supposed to reflect the acheivement of the student in the course in question. Nothing more. Nothing less.

So how does one explain grading on the curve?

No problem. When grading on a curve, the standard against which the individual's acheivement is evaluated is the acheivement of the peer group.

[John Ranalletta]

So, relative performance is more important than absolute performance? That doesn't have much application in the real world. We don't care about performance of our consultants relative to each other, while we do care (as they should) about their performance relative to absolute standards of achievement.

[EffBee]

Marks are supposed to reflect the acheivement of the student in the course in question. Nothing more. Nothing less.

So how does one explain grading on the curve?

No problem. When grading on a curve, the standard against which the individual's acheivement is evaluated is the acheivement of the peer group.

I would disagree. Grading on the curve evaluates a student's learning against the highest achiever within his/her peer group, not the peer group itself.

[Vicious_Cycler]

So, relative performance is more important than absolute performance? That doesn't have much application in the real world. We don't care about performance of our consultants relative to each other, while we do care (as they should) about their performance relative to absolute standards of achievement.

 

Something from college I've not forgotten:

 

"In the land of the blind, one eye is king."

- Dr. Peter Robb, statistics/information systems professor, Middle Tennessee State University, 1982

[RevRay]

Is that all that different from selling carbon credits? Money for the opportunity to sin?

 

Same mindset..............

[RonStewart]

Marks are supposed to reflect the acheivement of the student in the course in question. Nothing more. Nothing less.

So how does one explain grading on the curve?

No problem. When grading on a curve, the standard against which the individual's acheivement is evaluated is the acheivement of the peer group.

I would disagree. Grading on the curve evaluates a student's learning against the highest achiever within his/her peer group, not the peer group itself.

In a well-designed curve system, that simply is not the case. A certain percentage of students will get As, a larger group will get Bs, most of the students will get Cs and a few will fail. The median score - the score that half of the students are better than and half are worse than will be a C+. Thus, the individual is measured against the group, not against any individual. For this to be "fair" the sample set should be large: thirty, at least, but preferably more than sixty. And sometimes there will be great injustice, but nothing is perfect.

[whalerautumn]

Marks are supposed to reflect the acheivement of the student in the course in question. Nothing more. Nothing less.

So how does one explain grading on the curve?

No problem. When grading on a curve, the standard against which the individual's acheivement is evaluated is the acheivement of the peer group.

I would disagree. Grading on the curve evaluates a student's learning against the highest achiever within his/her peer group, not the peer group itself.

 

Fernando, is that true? Or, does it evaluate that learning against the mean achiever in the group? I have never really understood it.

[yabadabapal]

I wish they could have done this when I was in school. I could have been somebody. I could have been a contender.

Oh what the hell. You cant win em all.

Maybe I'll just run for public office?

[John Ranalletta]

Ok, but what purpose does it serve other to obscure actual performance against a set standard. Further, it would seem to make it almost impossible to compare the performance of members of two groups in the same course in different years.

 

I guess I don't understand why it was ever needed. What purpose does it serve?

[EffBee]

Marks are supposed to reflect the acheivement of the student in the course in question. Nothing more. Nothing less.

So how does one explain grading on the curve?

No problem. When grading on a curve, the standard against which the individual's acheivement is evaluated is the acheivement of the peer group.

I would disagree. Grading on the curve evaluates a student's learning against the highest achiever within his/her peer group, not the peer group itself.

 

Fernando, is that true? Or, does it evaluate that learning against the mean achiever in the group? I have never really understood it.

Grading on a curve can mean a variety of things. However, in my experience (and I admit that school was a while ago) the most common method is to base it on the highest grade.

 

Assume that normal grading would be separated by 10 pts., i.e.

91-100 = A

81-90 = B

 

etc.

 

Basing it on the highest grade in the class means that if the top performer got a 95, then the grading would be

86-95 = A

76-85 = B

 

etc.

 

It assumes that the top grade achieved is not a function of the student, but of the teacher's ability to pass on the information. Same teacher, same subject, two different classes and you might find two distinctly different curves.

 

And then what happens when you get a class full of underperformers, where top grades are in the 65-70 range. Are those worth an A? Is a 45 worth a C?

 

Grading on the curve brings relativism into the equation and is a favorite of social engineers who think background and environment should be factored into everything, from grades to courtroom guilt/innocence, to pay scales. There's an overall catchphrase for it. They call it "social justice." Sound familiar?

[tallman]

"performance against a set standard. "

 

Is this standard, unchanging, set in stone?

If so it would seem likely that more students would achieve at a higher percentage of mastery over time.

If it is changing, dynamic, variable, than comparison from year to year would be an ineffective way to measure achievement.

 

Grade creep, and grade inflation both permeate our system today.

Check out UCLA's report on college GPA's over the past four decades.

 

The reality is that low grades in some settings have gone the way of regular oil.

The reality is that people are ready, willing, and able to sue over low grades, in some instances.

The reality is that schools (public at least) need more money.

 

This is merely the logical extension, and an honest one at that, of grade inflation.

 

I think it didn't go far enough.

I think students should pay for their textbooks, and keep them, so that when your child gets a 2 year old book it isn't full of rascist slurs, drawings of genitalia, and other forms of vandalism.

If you want to save money and buy used, go ahead.

It won't be long until a school is sued over this type of issue.

"You issued a book to my sweet daughter that had XXX in it (contributed by some other previous book user?). She was traumatized, requires therapy, and has suffered greatly. This was foreseeable and preventable yet you did nothing to prevent it so give me money."

 

I say, let 'em pay. I think the rate was too low. $500 for a test grade, $1,000 fper 10 points on a marking period grade.

 

Eventually those who can afford this will have the laziest, dumbest kids and those who can't will have self-motivated disciplined achievers graduating and getting the good jobs.

 

Sounds like a win for someone.

 

[EffBee]

In a well-designed curve system, that simply is not the case. A certain percentage of students will get As, a larger group will get Bs, most of the students will get Cs and a few will fail. The median score - the score that half of the students are better than and half are worse than will be a C+. Thus, the individual is measured against the group, not against any individual. For this to be "fair" the sample set should be large: thirty, at least, but preferably more than sixty. And sometimes there will be great injustice, but nothing is perfect.

 

Of course you would want a minimum of 30 or you don't have a statistically valid sample. But that's not the issue. The issue is you are measured on what you have learned against what you were supposed to learn. You either do, or you don't, and if you don't you fail. If you fail, you need to learn from your failure and either move in a different direction if you have given it your absolute 100% best effort, or reapply yourself and give it that effort.

 

Grading on the curve does not make for stronger students. It weakens effort. It weakens resolve. It provides a false impression of how life works. It is counterproductive to the individual and ultimately, to society.

 

As for your last statement, "And sometimes there will be great injustice, but nothing is perfect." Good heavens! We take a linear system with a clear relation between skill, effort and reward, and convert it into a relative system where "great injustice" might be part of the outcome and then dismiss it with "nothing is perfect." I just can't believe that grading on a curve is anything but grade gifting based on factors other than study/learn/test/reward.

[tallman]

FB,

Sometimes.

I went to a school that had a mandatory curve for some classes.

It limited higher grades and mandated a high percentage of low grades all based on performance.

I got a 94 on a test, it was a "C" because that was the mean.

This was in law school and believe me it was a motivator.

Their goal was not just subject mastery, but to also prepare you for the bar exam.

I worked harder, got a 96.

But so did everyone else.

Still a "C".

Not the system for every subject or class size, but I have seen curves become motivators.

In a bell distribution curve I don't think you get valid results unless you use a huge sample over a period of time.

To me 30 isn't "huge".

 

In some subjects, such as Math, Chemistry, PE, there are standards that are measurable for student performance and you can compare year to year.

In other subjects, English Lit., Art, Sociology, there are some standards to measure, and others that are subjective, open to multiple "answers" that make grading and achievement comparisons more difficult, IMO.

Is Beethoven better than Lennon?

Is Rembrandt better than Rockwell?

Is Willie better than Barry?

(oops , that one is obvious )

Tax rates are based on curves, speed limits are based on curves, good rides are based on curves, so what's the problem.

[EffBee]

"performance against a set standard. "

 

Is this standard, unchanging, set in stone?

If so it would seem likely that more students would achieve at a higher percentage of mastery over time.

If it is changing, dynamic, variable, than comparison from year to year would be an ineffective way to measure achievement.

 

Grade creep, and grade inflation both permeate our system today.

Check out UCLA's report on college GPA's over the past four decades.

 

The reality is that low grades in some settings have gone the way of regular oil.

The reality is that people are ready, willing, and able to sue over low grades, in some instances.

The reality is that schools (public at least) need more money.

 

This is merely the logical extension, and an honest one at that, of grade inflation.

 

I think it didn't go far enough.

I think students should pay for their textbooks, and keep them, so that when your child gets a 2 year old book it isn't full of rascist slurs, drawings of genitalia, and other forms of vandalism.

If you want to save money and buy used, go ahead.

It won't be long until a school is sued over this type of issue.

"You issued a book to my sweet daughter that had XXX in it (contributed by some other previous book user?). She was traumatized, requires therapy, and has suffered greatly. This was foreseeable and preventable yet you did nothing to prevent it so give me money."

 

I say, let 'em pay. I think the rate was too low. $500 for a test grade, $1,000 fper 10 points on a marking period grade.

 

Eventually those who can afford this will have the laziest, dumbest kids and those who can't will have self-motivated disciplined achievers graduating and getting the good jobs.

 

Sounds like a win for someone.

I'd go further. You get to sign up as a supporter of either straight grading or curve grading. When you need a medical procedure, legal defense, dental work or financial guidance, you only get to go to those people who studied and got their educations under the system you support. Seems fair enough. If you're not willing to live under the umbrella of the rules you support, you have no right to foist them on the rest of society.

[tallman]

Old expression,

"A" student become defense attorney

"B" student prosecutor

"C" student judge

 

Financial planners?

If he/she was really good they would havemade 2 fortunes with the vascillations in the economy over the past 15 years.

I don't think too many have.

Doctors?

Is it the doctor or where they went to school that is the determinant factor?

Lawyers?

There are no good lawyers.

Only those who make a good living and those that don't.

I prefer to check out the track record of the individual, what are they doing and how have they performed, as opposed to "did they graduate from Harvard..."

Foisting will happen no matter what you and I espouse.

We have met the enemy and he is us...

Best wishes.

[AZKomet]

Well, having been a college instructor for 6 years I can tell you that many of my students needed all the help they can get. I have no idea how most of them even passed HS....I may have finally got my answer. Sheeeesh!!!!!!!!!!!! AMAZING!!!!!!!!

[AZKomet]

Old expression,

"A" student become defense attorney

"B" student prosecutor

"C" student judge

 

Financial planners?

If he/she was really good they would havemade 2 fortunes with the vascillations in the economy over the past 15 years.

I don't think too many have.

Doctors?

Is it the doctor or where they went to school that is the determinant factor?

Lawyers?

There are no good lawyers.

Only those who make a good living and those that don't.

I prefer to check out the track record of the individual, what are they doing and how have they performed, as opposed to "did they graduate from Harvard..."

Foisting will happen no matter what you and I espouse.

We have met the enemy and he is us...

Best wishes.

 

 

I have a friend who could not get into med school in the USA. He got in a mexican school and is now a doctor. He challenged the USA test and VIOLA! A US doctor....he always comments: HAHA...couldn't get into a US med school now I am treating patients...isn't that ironic?

 

Sometimes not even a "C" will get you a degree............

[John Ranalletta]

A few years ago, I remember Purdue issuing a study comparing SAT scores of its education majors to those of their engineering/math/science majors. The education majors had much lower SAT scores than the others on average; however, the education majors tended to earn higher grades in their classes.

 

So, it seems grade inflation might be baked into the education curricula.

[Shaman97]

He challenged the USA test and VIOLA! A US doctor....

 

Awesome!!! Music AND medicine.

 

Sorry...couldn't resist.

[EffBee]

So, it seems grade inflation might be baked into the education curricula.

Please, John, say it isn't so!

[RonStewart]

I can create a test for my current set of forty Math 12 students in which one will get 95%, half will get near fifty percent, and half will get below 10%. I can create a test in which all get 100%. I cannot create one within curriculum guidelines in which that top student won't get at least 95%, though. So how can you compare my results to a teacher in a different school? You can't. You end up relying on the professionalism of the individual teacher.

 

The problem there is that teachers' loyalties are divided between their profession and the kids with whom they have a relationship. A teacher realises that his kid really deserves a B, but that similar kids in other schools are getting As, so the teacher gives the kid an A to give the kid a shot at university. And the kid definitely deserves to go to university, just as surely as the other kids deserve Bs. Hence, grade inflation.

 

As it stands, this is my Math 12 distribution with 2/3 of the time and 60% of the marks in:

 

A (>86%) 12

B (73-85%) 6

C+ (67-72%) 5

C (60-67%) 5

C- (50-60%) 3

F (<50%) 9

 

Clearly, we are not seeing a "normal distribution" (commonly called a bell curve) here, so clearly I do not employ "marking to the curve." To curve these students, using a scheme like tallman described, I would have to drop 9 from A to B, and all the Bs to C+. I'd also have to move all of my C- to C, and pass all of the students who are 40% or better.

 

(The system Fernando is decribing is not marking to the curve either; it is grade scaling.)

 

Now, you may say, "Stewart, more than 1/4 of your class cannot possibly be earning an A." Before I started teaching, I would have agreed with you. But after students pass my course, they go on to write province-wide standardised tests, and their marks on the provincial exams are consistently higher than I award. So I am marking harder than the external standard that Fernando and JohnRan seem to prefer, and yet 1/4 of my class is getting an A. What is going on here is self-selection. Math 12 is really only for students with hopes of university science, engineering or business. Those for whom those hopes are groundless are failing or barely passing. Those for whom university is a reasonable goal are getting As or Bs.

 

Finally, and back to the original topic, I work in a private, for-profit school. There is a saying in the industry, "You pay your fees and you get your Bs." In our market, there are two schools that do not subscribe to that approach, and my school, fortunately, is one of them. I have a friend who left a competing school because he could not stand the pressure from school administration to award higher marks. I, too, would quit before I changed a grade. I hate it when a parent comes in with their little darling who has a B, but thinks that they have bought the child an A. The grades I award are based entirely on the acheivement of the student.

[tallman]

A few years ago, I remember Purdue issuing a study comparing SAT scores of its education majors to those of their engineering/math/science majors. The education majors had much lower SAT scores than the others on average; however, the education majors tended to earn higher grades in their classes.

 

So, it seems grade inflation might be baked into the education curricula.

 

Not exactly.

I'd like to see a test which emphasized child development, curriculum development, how to teach reading, and classroom management skills given to the folks studying math/science.

The SAT is not in any way a valid indicator to compare the two disciplines.

After all, girls get higher high school GPA's yet score lower (on average) than boys from the same schools on the SAT.

Despite attempts to "improve" the SAT, it still seems to contain gender and socio-economic bias when you disaggragate the data.

 

You would expect that students who are interested in math and science application and choose math and science disciplines to score higher on the SAT.

I would also expect PE majors to do better than math/science majors on tests involving child development, kinesthesiology, and perhaps even physical fitness levels.

Not being argumentative, just don't think that SAT scores is the way to compare them.

And, if you study the grades those engineering students are "earning" today you will find that overall, they have higher GPA's than students from earlier decades who studied the same material.

That comparison would be a valid one, IMO.

Best wishes.

 

 

[Quinn]

So Tallman, what percent of the grade is given for good behavior in high school? I'm thinking back on my own school days and it seemed that the girls always got better grades because they did all the assignments and caused no trouble in class. The boys did better on the tests, but had no interest in cooperating with the process.

I would imagine that things haven't changed that much and that the girls get better daily grades for homework and pop quizes and the boys do better on SAT and bigger tests.

 

----

 

 

[tallman]

An Educator's Primer to the Gender War

 

www.smartboysbadgrades.com/smartboys_badgrades.pdf

If you want to wade through the above, it may, or may not raise other questions.

[pbbeck]

Everyone knows that times are tough here in California. Supplies are becoming very tight in my school - something we're not accustomed to. Several weeks ago one of my seventh graders asked if she and some other students could donate reams of copy paper for extra credit. My response was an unequivocal no. She asked why. I explained that as a math teacher, the marks students receive from me are solely based on whether or not they have demonstrated that they can do the math. In addition, I pointed out the ethical (and potential legal) problem with what she was proposing. Taking donations for grades is not that far off from accepting money for grades. She accepted my response, and I hadn't given it another thought until I saw this story in the this week's news.

 

I just thought I'd share so that people know there are still ethical teachers out there.

[EffBee]

In a well-designed curve system, that simply is not the case. A certain percentage of students will get As, a larger group will get Bs, most of the students will get Cs and a few will fail. The median score - the score that half of the students are better than and half are worse than will be a C+. Thus, the individual is measured against the group, not against any individual. For this to be "fair" the sample set should be large: thirty, at least, but preferably more than sixty. And sometimes there will be great injustice, but nothing is perfect.

Rom, I'm curious. How a teacher who grades on a "well-designed curve" as you put it, would deal with a class in which the highest grade was, say, a 62, the lowest a 40, and all the rest evenly spread out in between.

 

Conversely, what happens when the highest grade is a 98 and the lowest a 79?

 

In the former, do you pass half the class and in the latter, do you fail kids with scores in the low 80's? These are some of the issues I see. But, as I said, school was a long time ago for me, yet it's your livelihood. At present, I think grading on a curve is counterproductive. However, I'm willing to learn how it can be otherwise.

[beemerman2k]

We are way too insular in this society.

 

I recently showed my daughters cover story titles from news magazines at the local bookstore. "China Goes Shopping", "The Forbes 400", and a couple of cover stories on foreign education and the decline of our own. I tell my girls that they are not, ultimately, competing against other American kids. They are competing with the WORLD.

 

The WORLD doesn't care about our petty social norms and histories. It doesn't care about curves, grade inflation, race/gender based points, or any of that nonsense. Who can use their intellectual capabilities to create wealth, innovation, and move their society/country forward? WHO? That's who gets to eat, all others get to be servants. Those are the stakes! Just because you win with respect to your classmates, does NOT mean you win in the grand scheme of things.

 

It is not for them alone that they need to achieve, although they certainly need to do so for their own futures. But for their country, too. They're blessed in that they don't have to put on a uniform and pick up a rifle to fight for their country, but they must fight nonetheless. Those foreign kids are bringing honor to their country while ours largely bring shame to ours. No more. This has to change. Our kids have to learn to fight! My girls consistently, year in and year out, get excellent grades, but it's not enough and it doesn't necessarily mean anything. The real test is global in nature and it's yet to come for them. How they do then will determine their ultimate grade in life.

 

This is what I teach my girls.

[John Ranalletta]

I'd never argue for SAT scores. I had to take mine 3x and add the scores together to get into college.

[Vicious_Cycler]

We are way too insular in this society.

 

I recently showed my daughters cover story titles from news magazines at the local bookstore. "China Goes Shopping", "The Forbes 400", and a couple of cover stories on foreign education and the decline of our own. I tell my girls that they are not, ultimately, competing against other American kids. They are competing with the WORLD.

 

The WORLD doesn't care about our petty social norms and histories. It doesn't care about curves, grade inflation, race/gender based points, or any of that nonsense. Who can use their intellectual capabilities to create wealth, innovation, and move their society/country forward? WHO? That's who gets to eat, all others get to be servants. Those are the stakes! Just because you win with respect to your classmates, does NOT mean you win in the grand scheme of things.

 

It is not for them alone that they need to achieve, although they certainly need to do so for their own futures. But for their country, too. They're blessed in that they don't have to put on a uniform and pick up a rifle to fight for their country, but they must fight nonetheless. Those foreign kids are bringing honor to their country while ours largely bring shame to ours. No more. This has to change. Our kids have to learn to fight! My girls consistently, year in and year out, get excellent grades, but it's not enough and it doesn't necessarily mean anything. The real test is global in nature and it's yet to come for them. How they do then will determine their ultimate grade in life.

 

This is what I teach my girls.

 

Wow! Well said.

[ltljohn]

We are way too insular in this society.

 

I recently showed my daughters cover story titles from news magazines at the local bookstore. "China Goes Shopping", "The Forbes 400", and a couple of cover stories on foreign education and the decline of our own. I tell my girls that they are not, ultimately, competing against other American kids. They are competing with the WORLD.

 

The WORLD doesn't care about our petty social norms and histories. It doesn't care about curves, grade inflation, race/gender based points, or any of that nonsense. Who can use their intellectual capabilities to create wealth, innovation, and move their society/country forward? WHO? That's who gets to eat, all others get to be servants. Those are the stakes! Just because you win with respect to your classmates, does NOT mean you win in the grand scheme of things.

 

It is not for them alone that they need to achieve, although they certainly need to do so for their own futures. But for their country, too. They're blessed in that they don't have to put on a uniform and pick up a rifle to fight for their country, but they must fight nonetheless. Those foreign kids are bringing honor to their country while ours largely bring shame to ours. No more. This has to change. Our kids have to learn to fight! My girls consistently, year in and year out, get excellent grades, but it's not enough and it doesn't necessarily mean anything. The real test is global in nature and it's yet to come for them. How they do then will determine their ultimate grade in life.

 

This is what I teach my girls.

 

Wow! Well said.

 

+1