Mounting & balancing tires on a R1150RT

[gthorpe]

Is there anything different about mounting & balancing tires on a R1150RT vs. other street bikes?

 

I'm wondering if this is something only a BMW dealer can do.

[smiller]

Is there anything different about mounting & balancing tires on a R1150RT vs. other street bikes?

No, just the same. You might need an adapter to fit the rear wheel to the balancing stand, otherwise no problem for the home mechanic with the proper tire changing tools.

[270]

You can actually buy a wheel balancing adapter at Harbor Freight...

[smiller]

You can actually buy a wheel balancing adapter at Harbor Freight...

Yeah, saw that the other day. BMW-specific balancing adapters at Harbor Freight... what is the world coming to...

[g_frey]

An old mechanic told me about 9 years ago that balancing motorcycle tires was a waste of time so I tried not balancing the next set on my bike. No vibration, same mileage. Since then I have never balanced my bike tires. Dunlop, Michelin, Avon, Metzler, didn't seem to matter. My tires are wearing even (unless I run low air pressure) with no vibration at all. I know at least 5 other riders who mount their own tires and do not balance them. Not recommending it but it works for me. I use tire spoons and soapy water to mount mine. Some cosmestic damage to the rims over the years but not significant. Saves me a 300 mile drive and $$$.

[smiller]

My view as to whether balancing is required is kinda yes, kinda no. I personally always check it and it's true that perhaps 8 or 9 out of ten times balance is close enough to not worry about. But one of those other times is an installation that could either benefit from a balance, or definitely needs it. So to my mind it's always a good idea to check... not necessary most of the time but worth the effort (only a matter of minutes really) for the instances where it is necessary.

[Jeron]

I spent a lot of time perfectly balancing my tires a year ago.

 

A few months ago I noticed the wheel weights on my rear rim were gone. I never noticed, and still cant tell, a difference.

 

I could easily replace them because I marked their location with duct tape when i installed them but why bother.

[Dan M]

I have the rig from "beemer balancer", works well.

 

Is it necessary? I agree with smiller. You don't know until you do it. Less than .5oz on a MC tire will be of little consequence. All tires are out some, all wheels are out some as well. How they match up when mounted has an effect.

[fatbob]

You guys would sure be disgusted watching me obsess over my wheel balancing on my no-mar stand, I will spend 30 minutes getting it perfect. It takes all kinds!

 

 

[ahirsch]

I did not balance the last set of tires either and I did not notice a difference.

[Dan M]

You guys would sure be disgusted watching me obsess over my wheel balancing on my no-mar stand, I will spend 30 minutes getting it perfect. It takes all kinds!

 

 

Hey, it's a job well done. If it makes a difference or not, you know it is right.

 

I noticed your bike line up - Not to hijack this thread, but how does your Norge compare to your RT?

[OoPEZoO]

I haven't balanced a tire in at least 2+ years.......which equates to 5-6 sets of tires. My tires have been wearing great and I can't tell the difference. My balancing days are over

[La Chuparosa]

I don't think you guys ride fast enough. That or you have no sensitivity to vibration. And that could be the case since the RT (a twin) has inherent vibration that inline fours do not.

 

Certainly if I ride the speed limit (65 to 75) the tires need little balancing. But at the speeds I ride on long road trips (85 to 100+) I have never seen a tire that couldn't use balancing at those speeds. The vibration from usch is simply annoying and I will not put up with it. Maybe I'm more sensitive to vibes that others.

 

 

[DD 430]

I replaced my worn out Metzelers with new ones a few months back. This time I did it myself rather than bring it to the shop. Rather than balance them statically I decided to try Dyna Beads. So far so good. Obviously I can't attest to tire wear at this point but I can attest to the fact that the bike rides vibration-free. It'll be interesting to see if I get any more 'life' out of the tires.

 

A tip: if you try the 'beads' pour them into the tire valve using clear PVC tubing. If you use latex surgical tubing they'll 'hang up' and it'll frustrate the dickens out of you.

[OoPEZoO]

I don't think you guys ride fast enough. That or you have no sensitivity to vibration.

 

Thats me.......slow and numb

[russell_bynum]

I don't think you guys ride fast enough. That or you have no sensitivity to vibration. And that could be the case since the RT (a twin) has inherent vibration that inline fours do not.

 

How's 160mph on a smooth racetrack on my CBR600RR work for ya?

 

I started changing my own moto tires...shesh...it has to be 8 years ago now. Multiple brands. Multiple styles (sport touring, sport, race, dualsport.) Multiple bikes. Never balanced. Never had any issues.

[Peter Parts]

Quite astonishing to me how well balanced are contemporary wheels and tires (not to mention the absence of tubes). I firmly believe in dynamic balancing but often double check on my home-brew balance stand too.

 

When I do the balance at home, I look as much for the rate of motion as the final static weighting.

 

Considering the geometry and potential for mis-centering, I am skeptical about the accuracy of horizontal bubble balancing. With all kinds of balancing methods, I think the wheel should be unmounted from the machine and remounted kind of in a different position. That's how you'd work in a lab.

 

I think a good way to look at some bike issues is according to the potential downside of a decision. Anybody who has ever had a speed wobble or half a tank-slapper would never risk having one again if they thought balancing helps (no unanimity there).

 

Question: has anybody checked for balance after their tires wore some?

[David R]

I have found the newer (car) tires need almost no balancing. I think its the same for motorcycle tires. For racing balance is a big part, at high speeds an out of balance tire will cost you in the traction department.

 

I think I am going to get my wheels balanced and continue to mount my own tires. Check them my self and call it good. I almost never hit 100 mph. To each his own.

 

If you don't at least check them then how do you know if its "close enough" ? If you check them, might as well follow through and add the weights.

 

The front of my RT is easy I can use the axle. The rear is another story. (bubble balancer) both are static. I have n not seen a machine that will spin balance a front tire.

 

I always took my /6 wheels to the repair shop because I hate tubes and he has those nice weights that go on the spokes. With the tubeless RT tires, I can do them frustration free. (my self)

 

David

[smiller]

If you don't at least check them then how do you know if its "close enough"?

Yeah, that's kind of the point. An imbalance may be rarely severe enough to cause an obvious running problem but that doesn't mean there won't be any benefit from being set up properly. Maybe you wouldn't even be able to tell a difference unless you A-B tested against a balanced tire but why not have the bike as smooth as possible? I mean, it takes all of five minutes to throw a wheel on a balancing stand and check it and maybe another five minutes if it needs to be balanced. Not much given the total time it takes to change a tire and the amount of time that tire will be on the bike. You can try to save those few minutes if you must but my personal view is that it represents a false economy.

[russell_bynum]

If you don't at least check them then how do you know if its "close enough"?

Yeah, that's kind of the point. An imbalance may be rarely severe enough to cause an obvious running problem but that doesn't mean there won't be any benefit from being set up properly. Maybe you wouldn't even be able to tell a difference unless you A-B tested against a balanced tire but why not have the bike as smooth as possible? I mean, it takes all of five minutes to throw a wheel on a balancing stand and check it and maybe another five minutes if it needs to be balanced. Not much given the total time it takes to change a tire and the amount of time that tire will be on the bike. You can try to save those few minutes if you must but my personal view is that it represents a false economy.

 

False economy? FWIW, my tire wear has always been on par with what other folks in my area with similar riding styles report getting. If it is reducing my tire life, it isn't by enough to measure in the real world.

 

I don't like wasting my time. If I felt like I was getting some benefit out of balancing, I'd do it. As you said, the time, equipment, and cost is minimal. But if there's no benefit, then what's the point?

[smiller]

I didn't mean economy in terms of tire life (although that is a potential aspect), I was referring to maximum performance. But as was said, most of the time there won't be any obvious issues and if you're certain that every tire you install is close enough that there is absolutely no benefit to be gained by checking them then... OK... your bike, your call.

[ltljohn]

FWIW I replaced my rear tire during a tech day this summer, there was some discussion as to balancing or not. So just to see we pulled the old weights and balanced the tire amazingly it took the exact same 10 grams in the same spot as the old tire. Replaced a Z6 with a Z6

[russell_bynum]

I didn't mean economy in terms of tire life (although that is a potential aspect), I was referring to maximum performance. But as was said, most of the time there won't be any obvious issues and if you're certain that every tire you install is close enough that there is absolutely no benefit to be gained by checking them then... OK... your bike, your call.

 

Who knows...maybe one day I'll mount one and head out for a ride and find that I've got some vibration or something like that. If that happens, I'll pull it and balance it. (Actually, I'll probably pull it and drop it at Cycle Gear to have them do it since I never bothered to buy the balancing stand or weights.) But so far...after dozens of tire changes, including different models, brands, and types, I've never had a single problem.

 

I will say as a caveat that I could have balance issues on the dualsport and probably wouldn't know it because the knobbies ride so rough anyway.

 

You're certainly not going to hurt anything by balancing the tires, so if it makes you feel better, then by all means go for it. I just like to separate the superstitions from the data and facts and then make my decision accordingly.

[smiller]

I'm not sure the idea of balancing tires is based on superstition but it's true that hard facts are difficult to come by. I do know that I've had occasional experiences of losing a tire weight in a car and having no trouble detecting it. I also know that some motorcycle tires require 1/4 oz. weight and some 2-plus ounces, no way to tell until I spin 'em. Is a couple of ounce imbalance enough to notice? I can't say for sure, maybe Mitch could compute the magnitude and period of the forces involved but that's out of my league.

 

One can't really dispute that in terms of conventional wisdom at least balancing of tire/wheel assemblies is considered advantageous. Is there really absolutely no need for this and only a mass fraud is preventing the obsolescence of an entire industry, with virtually every vehicle manufacturer on the planet in on the scam as well? I don't know, maybe it just makes them feel better too, but I suspect it is indeed worth just a few minutes of my time to check (as long as I throw some salt over my shoulder afterwards.)

[Jim VonBaden]

http://www.jimvonbaden.com/Tire_Change.html

 

Just for info!

 

Jim

[russell_bynum]

I'm not sure the idea of balancing tires is based on superstition but it's true that hard facts are difficult to come by. I do know that I've had occasional experiences of losing a tire weight in a car and having no trouble detecting it. I also know that some motorcycle tires require 1/4 oz. weight and some 2-plus ounces, no way to tell until I spin 'em. Is a couple of ounce imbalance enough to notice? I can't say for sure, maybe Mitch could compute the magnitude and period of the forces involved but that's out of my league.

 

One can't really dispute that in terms of conventional wisdom at least balancing of tire/wheel assemblies is considered advantageous. Is there really absolutely no need for this and only a mass fraud is preventing the obsolescence of an entire industry, with virtually every vehicle manufacturer on the planet in on the scam as well? I don't know, maybe it just makes them feel better too, but I suspect it is indeed worth just a few minutes of my time to check (as long as I throw some salt over my shoulder afterwards.)

 

FWIW, I lost a wheel weight on my Jeep once, and I did notice a fairly substantial vibration. I'm not saying that the wheel/tire don't need weights to be balanced. I suspect that if one of my weights ever came off, I'd feel it (Though some folks have reported losing weights and not noticing.) But...my hunch is that the tires are all "close enough" that once you get the wheel balanced, you're pretty much good to go unless you lose a weight or get some oddball tire that's way out of spec.

[g_frey]

Acutally I stopped balancing a long time ago and my 1150RT gets smoother the faster I go. If I were to go to 120 mph (would never do that except maybe...5th pleaded) I would probably be fascinated by the V-4 smoothness of the bike. The quality of tires has improved so much that the days of 4 oz wheel weights are over I imagine. Anybody here work in a tire shop lately? Even back when I let others do my tires I noticed the weights were very small comparitively. Once with a 50mph tailwind I thought that I was on rails. What a ride, it was very hard to do less than 90mph!

[smiller]

But...my hunch is that the tires are all "close enough" that once you get the wheel balanced, you're pretty much good to go unless you lose a weight or get some oddball tire that's way out of spec.

But that's just it, how do you know without checking? Hope that it's bad enough to clearly feel it (and then have to remove the wheel again)? As someone who does check every tire I'll be the first to admit that most of the time balance is probably close enough that it could be skipped with no negative effects. But every once in a while (maybe 10-20% of the time) I'll get one that does need a fair amount of weight. I can't say why as it doesn't seem to be related to any specific brand or any other factor that I can put my finger on, but nevertheless it does happen, and unless you're getting different tires than me it happens to you too. Anyway, for that reason and the fact that the time investment is so minimal I tend to fall on the 'why not check it?' side of things, but it's admittedly a judgment call.

 

I suppose you could say 'if I don't feel an imbalance, it isn't there' and that could be true, or it could be true that an imbalance is there but below an obvious level, and one that you could discern if you had a properly-balanced tire with which to compare. You obviously believe it's the former and of course I can't say it's the latter, in fact it's different for every case but... just takes a few minutes to be sure...

[russell_bynum]

But...my hunch is that the tires are all "close enough" that once you get the wheel balanced, you're pretty much good to go unless you lose a weight or get some oddball tire that's way out of spec.

But that's just it, how do you know without checking?

 

If I feel vibration, I'll know it wasn't "close enough".

 

Hope that it's bad enough to clearly feel it (and then have to remove the wheel again)?

 

If I can't feel it, then why would I care?

 

If I do feel it...yup...pull the wheel, take it to Cycle Gear, and have them sort it out.

 

As someone who does check every tire I'll be the first to admit that most of the time balance is probably close enough that it could be skipped with no negative effects. But every once in a while (maybe 10-20% of the time) I'll get one that does need a fair amount of weight. I can't say why as it doesn't seem to be related to any specific brand or any other factor that I can put my finger on, but nevertheless it does happen, and unless you're getting different tires than me it happens to you too.

 

I would be shocked if I wasn't seeing the same sort of variation that you are.

 

 

I suppose you could say 'if I don't feel an imbalance, it isn't there' and that could be true, or it could be true that an imbalance is there but below an obvious level, and one that you could discern if you had a properly-balanced tire with which to compare. You obviously believe it's the former and of course I can't say it's the latter, in fact it's different for every case but... just takes a few minutes to be sure...

 

No...I'm saying there probably is an imbalance, but if I can't feel it, why would I care? If I can't feel the difference, and I'm not seeing any adverse affects like poor tire life or something, then it is "close enough"...and the amount of weight required to make it "perfect" is irrelevant.

[Boffin]

 

No...I'm saying there probably is an imbalance, but if I can't feel it, why would I care? If I can't feel the difference, and I'm not seeing any adverse affects like poor tire life or something, then it is "close enough"...and the amount of weight required to make it "perfect" is irrelevant.

 

I would lean toward your position if it were not so easy to balance and the fact that race teams balance as well.

I have spoken to an old school friend by the name of Nigel Stepney - Schumacher's disgraced race engineer - and he said that vibration was not the issue, rather the effect on mechanical grip due to variation in tyre loading, heating of the tyre from extra flexing and the heating of the schock absorbers due to extra energy being pushed into them. That holds true for F1 cars but he said that for a road bike that most of these would be of minimal concern. He dis say however, that he could see minor imbalances leading to premature shock wear and some reduction of grip in marginal conditions.

 

I wish I went to school with Jeremy Burgess...

 

Andy

[Dan M]

Motorcycle tires have considerably less mass than car tires so "feeling" an imbalance is not usually as obvious. Motorcycle suspension absorbs quite a bit too. If you are not feeling anything or getting any cupping on your tires it is not really an issue.

The fact is though if you do have a vibration, then you have to take it back off or live with it. If you do get balance related cupping it is too late. Once a wear pattern starts it will continue throughout the life of the tire.

Why not just check it the first time?

 

[russell_bynum]

 

No...I'm saying there probably is an imbalance, but if I can't feel it, why would I care? If I can't feel the difference, and I'm not seeing any adverse affects like poor tire life or something, then it is "close enough"...and the amount of weight required to make it "perfect" is irrelevant.

 

I would lean toward your position if it were not so easy to balance and the fact that race teams balance as well.

I have spoken to an old school friend by the name of Nigel Stepney - Schumacher's disgraced race engineer - and he said that vibration was not the issue, rather the effect on mechanical grip due to variation in tyre loading, heating of the tyre from extra flexing and the heating of the schock absorbers due to extra energy being pushed into them. That holds true for F1 cars but he said that for a road bike that most of these would be of minimal concern. He dis say however, that he could see minor imbalances leading to premature shock wear and some reduction of grip in marginal conditions.

 

I wish I went to school with Jeremy Burgess...

 

Andy

 

Now that's real information that we can use.

[Peter Parts]

Motorcycle tires have considerably less mass than car tires so "feeling" an imbalance is not usually as obvious. Motorcycle suspension absorbs quite a bit too. If you are not feeling anything or getting any cupping on your tires it is not really an issue. snip

One more informative thread. Golly, I thought all gen-u-ine bikers were balance fanatics. Apparently not!

 

The essential bike wheel balance issue is that the wheels are thin and so balancing takes place in one plane. Likewise, makes effective static balancing more feasible.

 

In light of previous post, I think car balance is instantly detectable because the steering wheel starts to shimmy around. That's because the bike imbalance acts on the suspension and sprung weight of the bike while car front wheel imbalance can act sideways and hence up through the steering wheel.

 

Which brings me to my sentimental favorite: Earles forks. Love 'em. Your hands feel less. Which brings me to the cousin of Earles forks but invented by idiots so as to look like telescopic forks from a distance: Telelever.

[smiller]

The effects that Andy mentioned were what I meant when I referred to performance effects and I probably should have been more descriptive. But I'd only read about such things though and hearing about Andy's first-hand conversation with a racing engineer is interesting. Hard to say how much these effects might show up at road speeds (depends on the amount of imbalance I guess) and I'm not sure whether a rider would necessarily feel a problem as obvious vibration before it might affect shock wear or grip. A lot of unknowns here, but luckily there's a very simple solution...

[Clive Liddell]

Hi Jim,

 

Just a small comment - you didn't mention to eliminate any sideways force on the RH fork leg before tightning the pinch bolt.

 

A very nice write up!!

 

[realshelby]

I mount my own tires and would buy a balancer if I thought I needed one. If I mount a tire and it has a vibration I want it off the bike and checked out....likely it has a defect in the casing that balancing may cover up (or not).

 

If you are someone that thinks balancing is a MUST, then explain to me how you can justify not rebalancing the front tire every 1K or so. With the kind of tire wear RT's exhibit on the front there is no way they can stay "balanced".