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Oh no...


hexairheadbeemerguy

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hexairheadbeemerguy

Posted this question on the MOA site but as many are at the National may not get an answer soon. Hit a parking curb several hours ago while pulling away, have Wunderlich cylinder bars on, it bent the left bar back on the valve cover. Shut the bike off immediately and then saw oil pouring out the bottom. Just got it home, unbolted the base bar that bolts up into the 'pan' and a chunk of metal dropped on the floor. Unlike my '83RT, there does not appear to be a like oil pan and cannot locate one on the A&S fiche. Can someone give me the bad news, I promise to try and take it like a man. '07RT P.S. I do feel like an airhead now...

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hexairheadbeemerguy, man get a shorter handle as that is typing nightmare..

 

Your engine has no removable oil pan,, it is continuous part of the crankcase.. If you broke a part out of the lower crankcase you have problems..

 

Can you post s picture of the damage as then we can make a more informed reply..

 

The good news is your insurance should cover it as it was either an accident or road hazard.. I presume that parking stone MUST have been laying in the middle of the road when you hit it correct!

 

1200eng.jpg

 

Twisty

 

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Lineareagle

One broken case half!

 

Maybe just maybe if it is not structural you can salvage it but the odds are, weeping and nashing of teeth, bad.

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hexairheadbeemerguy

Thanks for the replies, I will consider changing my handle but that is for another day. Have two photos of the damaged area but am unsure how to post them for viewing. I am hopeful the piece that was 'punched' out can be TIG'd. I would like to post the pictures tho if someone can point me in the right direction. Thx.

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Hhbg, (there), sure it could probably be tig welded back but probably not easily & probably not without completely getting the oil out & maybe not without removing the engine & possibly some engine parts near the weld.. Tig welding aluminum creates a LOT of welding heat & that heat travels a long ways along the aluminum case to possibly damage other things..

 

As far a pictures are concerned you have to host them on another site (like PhotoBucket) or your ISP account area,, then link to them in your post here..

 

Twisty

 

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n response to:

Poster: hexairheadbeemerguy

Subject: Re: Oh no...

 

Thanks for the replies, I will consider changing my handle but that is for another day. Have two photos of the damaged area but am unsure how to post them for viewing. I am hopeful the piece that was 'punched' out can be TIG'd. I would like to post the pictures tho if someone can point me in the right direction. Thx.[/quote

 

This post helped me. I use Flickr to post my pictures.

 

http://bmwsporttouring.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=141424&nt=12&page=1

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Here is a step by step for Flickr:

 

Look at your picture on Flickr

Click on the All Sizes link above the picture

Pick the size you want link to

Below the picture there will be 2 boxes numbered 1 and 2 (!)

Copy the link from box 2

That's it.

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You got it linked but I'm going to display it here for you.

 

photo.jpg

 

DEFINITELY follow up on the road hazard like Twisty said... the details of what exactly happened may need to be tweeked a bit though.

 

Hopefully the Wunderlich bars were dealer installed... but I fear since this is a aftermarket part it will not help your situation when it comes to trying to get someone else to pay for the damages.

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Hhbg, that looks nasty.. I really can’t tell by the picture but it looks like maybe enough access to weld.. Problem is we don’t know what is right behind the fracture & if the heat will migrate to the engine case seam & melt the case sealer.. There can’t be ANY oil left in the engine on in any of the seams or crannies near the weld or it will wick right into the weld as it will travel right to the heat..

 

Do you have insurance on that bike to cover road hazards? If that was my bike I would want a new case..

 

If you absolutely need to get that welded you will have to have the person doing the welding look at it in person & make the determination on what is needed to be removed to get a proper weld.. It is very difficult to weld on an aluminum engine case with the engine still assembled & in the vehicle..

 

Twisty

 

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Now I'm starting to worry about how the Wunderlich bars can rip a hole in the case half. Hexair, how fast were you moving? Exactly what hit the curb and how did it happen--the bolt head underneath the bike (holding the crash bars on) or the bars themselves? I'd like to know so I don't repeat the scenario.

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stubblejumper

I have to wonder what would have happened without the bars.Could the bars have resulted in more expensive damage?

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hexairheadbeemerguy

Will have to check with the insurance company re coverage. This was a result of trying to be a considerate motorcyclist; parked on the concrete skirting between the front of a popular brekky cafe and the curb. You know, to avoid it being knocked over and not have cagers bitching about my bike taking a parking space. It is entirely my fault and the lesson is the hell with cagers; I operate a legally licenced vehicle. At this moment it seems no crash bars and a ruined valve cover is a better trade than bars and a holed case. Maybe tomorrow I will think differently.

Will spray mild engine degreaser inside the hole to try and get all the oil out before taking it to a welder. At least the punched out piece is whole and not in several pieces. Thanks to all and will post the outcome

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I think you may have a chance with the welding option; I'm not a welder but the most important procedures in this case will be cleanliness and position. By completely removing and dissassembling the engine; these procedures would be easy. But then you would have the option of replacing that half of the engine case ($$$).

With the engine in place the welder would surely prefer to have the bike upside down for preparation and welding.

If you do attempt to weld in place; forget about reinstalling your crash bars.

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hexairheadbeemerguy, there is way more to cleaning that case of oil than spraying some degreaser into the hole.. It will need to be flushed with a solvent (nothing that burns or makes a toxic gas while heating) many times,, then an evaporating solvent used.. The welder will probably do that if needed as he is the one that needs it as clean as possible & free of any wicking oil..

 

Show home where the oil fill cap is as he will also have to vent the crankcase during welding to prevent pressure build up in the crankcase, also make sure he knows that case is sealed between the case halves with a semi soft sealer that will probably leak if it gets real hot.. The bike will have to laid on it’s side to do the weld so be sure he has a fire proof blanket to lay it over on..

 

That is not an easy weld but with the proper prep & a good welder that knows his salt it can probably be done correctly.. I am a certified welder & I wouldn’t even dream of repairing that case without some internal case research & plenty of preparation.. Probably take me 20 times longer to prep the darn thing than to actually weld it..

 

Twisty

 

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Got to agree.

This is one of those replace, not repair, times, IMO.

By the time you do everything properly to weld it you could replace it quicker.

Good luck.

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Lineareagle

Twisty is right, prep will be 10x the welding.

 

I have to tell you that I work in the industry and of the 20 or so welders I know of in the Toronto area there is only one that I think could do the job properly, with a fair to good outcome.

 

I would take lots more pics of the area and from a little further away, take the pics and the broken piece to the welders and ask them what they think.

 

I am guessing you will get a lot of 'not possible'.

Or, well I can try - code for I've never done anything like it before!

 

Talk to a Snap-on dealer in your area, they may have a custom builder in the area who can either do it or point you in the right direction, some of those guys are brilliant.

 

Buena suerte.

 

 

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BeemerLover

Lineareagle, Great "thinking outside the box" idea to talk to the Snap-On guy..... I recently couldn't find someone to replace a zipper in my well worn and loved leather motorcycle jacket. No one I called had the requisite heavy duty machine. One lady suggested I call the company that repairs sewing machines and the problem was solved!

 

 

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Hopefully the Wunderlich bars were dealer installed... but I fear since this is a aftermarket part it will not help your situation when it comes to trying to get someone else to pay for the damages.

 

Assuming the bars are designed to be installed bolted directly to the the crankcase, how could this even remotely be the dealer's fault?

 

This is why I never install stuff like this on my bikes. For want of protecting a scuff on the cylinder head, you end up with a hole in the crankcase, The law of unintended consequences at work.

 

I hope his insurance helps him out.

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Assuming the bars are designed to be installed bolted directly to the the crankcase, how could this even remotely be the dealer's fault?

 

Not saying it was dealers fault more along the lines of someone to go to bat for him. But in retrospect why would or should they? They just get paid to install whatever a customer wants. So I retract the dealer involvement statement.

 

 

This is why I never install stuff like this on my bikes. For want of protecting a scuff on the cylinder head, you end up with a hole in the crankcase, The law of unintended consequences at work.

 

Perfectly apropos. Farkels are one thing but installing a item like this that has the potential to create massive uninteneded damage is something that should be rethought by those that have it on there bike.

 

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stubblejumper
This is why I never install stuff like this on my bikes. For want of protecting a scuff on the cylinder head, you end up with a hole in the crankcase, The law of unintended consequences at work.

 

Which is why I installed the metal valve cover protectors that come stock on the gs1200 adventure.They help protect the valve covers,but they don't put the crankcase at risk,and they aren't in the way like crash bars.

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stubblejumper, even those can cause added issues.. I saw an RT a few weeks ago that went over in a low speed corner (maybe walking speed) & the metal GS cover protector peeled back & not only allowed bad cover damage it slid back & into the side Tupperware & did a fair amount of damage to that..

 

Twisty

 

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stubblejumper
I saw an RT a few weeks ago that went over in a low speed corner (maybe walking speed) & the metal GS cover protector peeled back & not only allowed bad cover damage it slid back & into the side Tupperware & did a fair amount of damage to that..

 

If my bike goes down hard enough to peel back the metal valve cover protector,the valve cover will be shredded,and the plastic fairing will be damaged anyways.I added the covers to give me a better chance of not being stranded far from a dealer in case the bike is dropped at slow speed,or just gets knocked over.

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Inquiring minds (those of us with crash bars installed) would like to know;

Did the offending road hazard impact with the bolt at the mounting point? Or did it hit the crash bars up by the valve cover and stress the bar to the point it sheared the mounting point from the lower case?

I've always been concerned about the bars being mounted to those lower corners of the engine case.

Please, do tell.

 

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hexairheadbeemerguy

I was in first gear and just pulling away, bearing in mind crossing a public sidewalk to reach a driveway and then onto a road. The bar bent back to the valve cover, it took out two small fin areas the size of the bar but it did not break nor leak. Am presuming the force was transferred down to the rectangular bar which bolts to the 'oil pan'. The bolt was still in the broken piece which was a clean break. I don't blame the bar company, I bought them to prevent tip over damage to a valve cover and saddlebag. As someone else posted, at the time unintended consequences like this did not occur to me. I have no plans to reinstall bars on my bike and will take my chances. Hindsight is always perfect tho...

I've been riding forty (what?)years now so am not an inexperienced rider; this just reminds me shit happens. Just not much fun when it is you it happens to.

I have received several PMs regarding both welding and marine epoxy repairs, all of which will be carefully considered. I'm sure others have specific repair opinions which could helpful. Thanks for posting, it confirms riders help out 'cause we have all been there at one time or another. Btw Twisty, I will try and change my user name to HHBG...

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Got to agree.

This is one of those replace, not repair, times, IMO.

By the time you do everything properly to weld it you could replace it quicker.

I think in this case 'replace' means pulling the engine (no small feat on a modern R-bike), splitting the cases, and reinstalling parts into the new case (along with all the measurement checking that would require.) I can't imagine any method of repair taking anywhere near as long as a replacement would take.

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I was in first gear and just pulling away, bearing in mind crossing a public sidewalk to reach a driveway and then onto a road. The bar bent back to the valve cover, it took out two small fin areas the size of the bar but it did not break nor leak. Am presuming the force was transferred down to the rectangular bar which bolts to the 'oil pan'. The bolt was still in the broken piece which was a clean break. I don't blame the bar company, I bought them to prevent tip over damage to a valve cover and saddlebag. As someone else posted, at the time unintended consequences like this did not occur to me. I have no plans to reinstall bars on my bike and will take my chances. Hindsight is always perfect tho...

I've been riding forty (what?)years now so am not an inexperienced rider; this just reminds me shit happens. Just not much fun when it is you it happens to.

I have received several PMs regarding both welding and marine epoxy repairs, all of which will be carefully considered. I'm sure others have specific repair opinions which could helpful. Thanks for posting, it confirms riders help out 'cause we have all been there at one time or another. Btw Twisty, I will try and change my user name to HHBG...

 

HHBG, don’t change your handle I was just jabbing at you a bit on that long difficult to type series of letters..

 

On the Epoxy repair method.. While it is true there are wonderful epoxies on the market now-- the type of breakout you have there is not the best place to use that type of product.. It is a thin edged break on a thin walled aluminum casting that operates very hot with oil behind it.. If you ever watched high speed pictures of engine crankcases breathing & squirming around at high RPM’s you would see that the crankcase casting doesn’t just sit there benignly taking up space & holding the oil in.. Most thin walled crankcases squirm & twist about a fair amount as well as pumping in & out.. Remember epoxy doesn’t actually fuse with the base metal it just sort of sticks to it..

 

My worry would be almost any epoxy repair you make would hold for a while but sooner or later would fail & allow the oil out in a hurry possibly fouling your rear tire or at the very least quickly running your engine out of lubricating oil.. Now if you are idling in your driveway no big deal but if on the road 400 miles from home it starts to become an issue.. My personal confidence in a repair using epoxy would be pretty low for a long term repair..

 

Twisty

 

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Got to agree.

This is one of those replace, not repair, times, IMO.

By the time you do everything properly to weld it you could replace it quicker.

I think in this case 'replace' means pulling the engine (no small feat on a modern R-bike), splitting the cases, and reinstalling parts into the new case (along with all the measurement checking that would require.) I can't imagine any method of repair taking anywhere near as long as a replacement would take.

 

Making a leap of faith that the "repair" will fix the problem, permanently, and not have an impact on resale or trade-in, and won't be bad money/time/effort after good if it turns out to not solve the problem.

I know our dealership would probably pass on a trade-in w/this damage "repaired".

YMMV.

Best wishes.

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I don't know, there are a lot of factors to consider here and in light of that I'm not so sure that a properly chosen and applied epoxy wouldn't be a reasonable way to go as there are always 'ifs.' Clearly a new case is the best option if you want to deal with the extreme amount of labor involved. A good weld job would probably be second if you can find someone who is qualified and if it works out (it has already been described why it might not.) I have used epoxies for a number of repairs exposed to engine heat and oil and haven't experienced a failure yet. This is obviously no kind of guarantee but I don't think it's correct to say that a proper epoxy repair is inevitably doomed to failure. As with a weld though proper materials and application skill is critical.

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Seth, of course you are correct,, it could work.. Working in the automotive field that I do we have many alloy casting failures either due to design problems or other failures & while we do use epoxies to make temporary repairs to finish testing or complete validation none seem to hold up long term.. Especially those thin edge repairs or large piece insertions.. The epoxy seems to be at it’s best on overlapping joint repairs & crack/small hole repairs but missing piece retention like that BMW engine block would be low on my list of long term repair integrity..

 

Twisty

 

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FWIW, my strategy would be to fab a plug that fit as tightly as possible and the epoxy would do the rest. I'm sure that you no doubt have many reasons why this would be inadvisable, but given my own past experiences I'd be inclined to do it anyway (call me crazy... :grin:.) I think it would be a reasonable solution in this case, given the several not-so-great options.

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Seth, be an interesting repair plug for that gaping hole..

 

I guess if he tries it he will let us know if it strands him on the road somewhere,, then we’ll know one way or the other if epoxy works..

 

 

bkncase.jpg

 

Twisty

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My big concern would be catastrophic failure whilst at highway speeds.

Sudden loss of oil and the resultant damage would be something to "weigh" vs. the cost of replacement.

I know, sort of a worst case scenario, but that's how my mind works.

It is possible a fix would last the life of his ownership and then he could weigh the cost benefit of having a question mark when it comes to resale/trade.

I hope he can find an inexpensive and worthwhile solution.

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stubblejumper
My big concern would be catastrophic failure whilst at highway speeds.

 

My big concern would be having hot oil getting onto the rear tire at speed.An engine can be replaced,but a high speed accident could kill or cripple the rider.

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It is possible a fix would last the life of his ownership and then he could weigh the cost benefit of having a question mark when it comes to resale/trade.

Well when it comes to resale the value is going to be compromised regardless of whether it was welded, epoxied, or if the engine had been totally dis/reassembled. None of these are going to be particularly appealing to a potential buyer. An unfortunate but unavoidable consequence.

 

Regarding the potential for a sudden catastrophic failure, there are any number of methods that can be employed to reduce this likelihood to nil. A rear tire can blow out and any number of other things can also hurt a rider, it is always a matter of probability. But if the merest potential of a failure, regardless of relative likelihood, is worth a multi-thousand dollar repair over a $20 repair then that certainly is what the owner should do.

 

Anyway, many ideas were submitted and all have their merits. The OP will chose the one he is thinks is best.

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hexairheadbeemerguy

Appreciate all the posts so far. In case I did not make it obvious earlier, I do have the punched out piece of case still. My brother in law just arrived and he is the area manager for a welding supply company. I will be going with the TIG repair; does anyone the alloy composition of the engine? Apparently this is very important for a TIG repair.

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hexairheadbeemerguy, no but it is a casting so who knows what is added to allow proper casting & proper machining..

 

About all I can tell you from welding similar alloy engine cases & lots of Volkswagen engine cyl heads is I would probably personally use a 4043 tig filler rod & also flood the inside of the engine case with Argon during the welding process.. Now that could change in a hurry if the weld gave me a problem as I added filler rod.. That is really not a structural area so no more than a 40 series rod would be needed & no machining afterward so again a 40 series rod would suffice..

 

That looks like a fairly easy weld area & a clean break so once cleaned & prepped shouldn’t be too bad to weld.. My two biggest concerns would be oil wicking into the weld process & heating the casting that close to the case half parting joint (man aluminum alloy casting sucks up the welding heat so then quickly transfers that heat far & wide)..

 

I should probably add: About any good welder you pick will have no problem picking his own filler rod for the situation..

 

Twisty

 

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Following this thread for a while, I personally think any kind of epoxy repair should be an "emergency" repair to get home; not intended to be a permenant repair.

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Wow.

 

After following this thread since posting I can not even remotely imagine not replacing that case unless I was planning on selling the bike soon. While the $$$ might be slightly higher, the peace of mind and durability of repair far exceed as considerations IMHO.

 

Good luck and hope it works out.

 

JT

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The good news is your insurance should cover it as it was either an accident or road hazard.. I presume that parking stone MUST have been laying in the middle of the road when you hit it correct!

 

I'm sure that the the "parking stone" was a moving fragment and had been kicked up by another vehicle right into your path. With some insurance companies, if it was a stationary object, you should have avoided it and the fault is yours. However, if it is a moving object, then it was thrust into your path and is therefore an unavoidable hazard and is covered.

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hexairheadbeemerguy

Thanks for all the replies & the specific info on welding rods Twisty. In all these posts there has usually been something to mull over for a bit. I drive semi super-B double tankers for 'fun'; many of them are constructed of aluminum. These trailers haul some nasty stuff at times, sometimes hundreds of degrees hot & often under pressure. Here in Edmonton, there is a fabrication shop the trailers are taken to for repair when they are damaged. I personally have never seen a repair fail and DoT certifies them as a repair facility(not that I'm trying to pass myself off as a guru). So whoever posted a concern about crankcase pressures, thanks; that led to the idea of having the weld done at this shop. Once it is repaired, no cause for public worry as I will never sell this bike. Bought my '83RT new, maybe it too will be sold after I'm gone to the great tour in the sky.

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hexairheadbeemerguy

Thanks for all the replies & the specific info on welding rods Twisty. In all these posts there has usually been something to mull over for a bit. I drive semi super-B double tankers for 'fun'; many of them are constructed of aluminum. These trailers haul some nasty stuff at times, sometimes hundreds of degrees hot & often under pressure. Here in Edmonton, there is a fabrication shop the trailers are taken to for repair when they are damaged. I personally have never seen a repair fail and DoT certifies them as a repair facility(not that I'm trying to pass myself off as a guru). So whoever posted a concern about crankcase pressures, thanks; that led to the idea of having the weld done at this shop. Once it is repaired, no cause for public worry as I will never sell this bike. Bought my '83RT new, maybe it too will be sold after I'm gone to the great tour in the sky.

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Well when it comes to resale the value is going to be compromised regardless of whether it was welded, epoxied, or if the engine had been totally dis/reassembled. None of these are going to be particularly appealing to a potential buyer. An unfortunate but unavoidable consequence.

 

I had similar discussions with people when the insurance company decided to repair my RT instead of totaling it out. At least with mine, with the exception of the valve covers, it was pretty much all new cosmetic stuff (still nearly 14K worth of stuff, but cosmetic all the same). Since I don't plan on selling my RT any time soon (and she rides like a new bike still), I wasn't worried about it.

 

I think his strategy will be based on what he wants to do with the bike and how long he intends on owning it.

 

Wayne

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Well, heck of a way to ‘meet’ a fellow Edmontonian, but welcome. Member of the Black Gold Beemers?

 

Seeing as everyone is weighing in on their own opinion/advice, I might as well too. :P I have two words – new case.

 

More words – There's no way I'd trust a repair of a hole like that. I’m a fair hexhead mechanic, so if you decide to tackle case replacement yourself and want some help, PM me.

 

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markgoodrich
The good news is your insurance should cover it as it was either an accident or road hazard.. I presume that parking stone MUST have been laying in the middle of the road when you hit it correct!

 

I'm sure that the the "parking stone" was a moving fragment and had been kicked up by another vehicle right into your path. With some insurance companies, if it was a stationary object, you should have avoided it and the fault is yours. However, if it is a moving object, then it was thrust into your path and is therefore an unavoidable hazard and is covered.

 

I don't know if Canadian insurance works like U. S. (Texas, at least), but this incident is a collision, albeit an at-fault collision. Collision coverage should pay the cost above the deductible. For example, I forgot to lock the top case to the rack once, and it fell off. In the driveway. Scratched it up. Insurance covered everything above the deductible, called it a collision, my fault. It didn't affect my premium. My policy does not contain a "you're stupid, no coverage" clause (although perhaps it should).

 

Wbrissette's recent wreck, chronicled elsewhere, is another example of a collision; it also did not involve anyone or anything but him and his bike.

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