Braking - Are you using skill or technology or blind luck?

[russell_bynum]

Ask yourself this Russell, would you rather have the Tuono front end & brakes on your RT, or keep it how it is?

 

I don't have an RT anymore, but yeah...if I had a choice I'd rather have the Tuono's great front end on all my bikes. I do prefer to have ABS, but lack of ABS isn't a deal-breaker for me.

 

It is interesting, though...the lack of feedback from the telelever front never used to bother me..mostly because I didn't know any better. I've pushed my RT and Lisa's RS pretty damn hard, too and never had an issue with front end traction. Then I started riding the track with my CBR and suddenly I'd get on the BMW and the lack of feedback was really disconcerting.

 

As an aside...it's probably not reasonable to expect one bike to do everything. I don't think you'd have much luck finding a car that does all of those things well.

[smiller]

Well I'm sure BMW is going for overall stability under widely varying loads and road conditions vs. being able to feel that quarter under the wheel, and in that role the telever/duolever front ends work a lot better than most telescopic designs. I imagine that is a preferable trade-off for most BMW buyers, and as you note every vehicle is a trade-off unless purpose-built for a very specific single application such as racing.

[tallman]

I have been involved in a, shall we say, "spirited" conversation on the F800 board concerning the use of ABS as a braking strategy.

 

I ask for your input on this topic as there have been some good pieces of information presented and I think we can all learn from it. I also believe that there has been some bad information posted. Again, I feel we can all learn from it.

 

Here is the post.

 

We had a member post earlier concerning his use of ABS - HERE - and feel that this topic warrants study in the 'Ride Well' forum.

 

I look forward to this think tank's input.

I have whizzy ABS brakes and think they are the worst thing about this R1200ST. Who ever came up with this $hit should be shot!!!

I wish BMW made an bike "R" bike with good conventional forks, and no ABS. (That seems to be the best thing about the F bikes, you can get 'em without ABS)

This crap is like a technology dog chasing his tail. first they have this Tele-lever front end which gives you little feedback, (and has to much un-sprung weight.) now since you have little feedback, you can't modulate your brakes, so your front tire is at the limit of adhesion, so they have to give us this ABS crap. It should be an option for those of limited riding skills.

I can't do stoppies 'cuz when the rear comes up, the brakes shut off! If I'm on a dirt road (Or sometimes on the street ) I can't back the rear end in. I'm more like a passenger than the rider on this thing.

Not to mention the reliability and TCO issues created by a system way more complicated than it needs to be.

Hate the ABS!!! (Aren't you glad you asked?)

 

I have a love-hate with the telelever. It does a great job keeping the suspension working under hard braking without requiring overly stiff springs and compression damping. But the complete lack of feedback is disconcerting, especially after riding bikes like the Tuono where I could run over a quarter in the street and tell you what year it was just from the feedback in the bars.

 

As for backing the rear end in...I don't know about the current generation of ABS, but you could definitely do that with ABS-II on my R1100RT. The key was braking hard enough with the front that the rear was unweighted. Then just stand on the rear brake pedal. Rear ABS engages, but the combination of not much weight on the rear, and the drag from the rear brake would get the rear end slithering around. Bar input could direct it to one side or the other.

 

I dunno about stoppies...I never tried that.

 

Realistically, though, it's hard to argue that the inability to back it in and do stoppies is a bad thing since we're talking about touring and sport touring bikes.

I guess this is why I'm such a little whiner, I want a bike that does it all!

I tour, sport tour, sport ride, do fire roads, and with a proper front end w/ proper brakes this would be the perfect bike for me. (Like your Tuono or most any other modern liter bike)

When I say "stoppies" I'm not talking about 12 o'clockers like the stunters do. But sometimes while braking hard the rear gets light, and if I hit a bump, it bounces up, then locks, which in turn releases the brakes. (I've whined about this in another thread here)

I don't need to back it in on the street, but that is a very useful tool while riding fire roads.

Ask yourself this Russell, would you rather have the Tuono front end & brakes on your RT, or keep it how it is?

 

Sounds like an 800 GS w/ABS that you turn off when you want to.

I'll let someone else ask why you'd buy a bike you dislike so much.

[russell_bynum]

Sounds like an 800 GS w/ABS that you turn off when you want to.

 

Speaking for myself, an 800 GS would fall short in the following areas:

Chassis isn't stiff enough for sport riding

Not enough power for high speed sport/sport touring (Torrey)

Too small for touring

 

Don't get me wrong...I think it's a great bike. But one bike can't do everything well.

[tallman]

Chassis, maybe, don't know what you could do, but it isn't a track bike, per se.

High speed?

The 800ST will go faster than an RT.

Touring?

Much bigger than the G 650 which has had plenty of touring done on it.

That said, not quite what I was looking for either.

 

But, my response was an attempt to be nice more than findsomeone a ride.

It may be just me, but seems like we are getting more and more posts about why someone's bike sucks yet for some reason they buy it and ride it.

[BanjoBoy]

Chassis, maybe, don't know what you could do, but it isn't a track bike, per se.

High speed?

The 800ST will go faster than an RT.

Touring?

Much bigger than the G 650 which has had plenty of touring done on it.

That said, not quite what I was looking for either.

 

But, my response was an attempt to be nice more than findsomeone a ride.

It may be just me, but seems like we are getting more and more posts about why someone's bike sucks yet for some reason they buy it and ride it.

I've never said this R1200ST is crap, it has many, many, many, great features that I do appreciate and it's a real joy to wrench on. Coming from chains, I love the shaft. (at least until it grenades ) I love the low CG which makes the bike rail through the twisties nicely. I love the way it goes from sport bike to tourer in a minute.

I thought the Tele lever would be a good thing from what I read. (Suspension movement separated from steering) But like an attractive young woman with a "tramp stamp" on her lower back, I just have to wonder why? I look at the complexity, and all the un-sprung weight of the Tele Lever, and wonder why? (I'm sorry that's just me)

I miss the feedback from conventional forks, and IMHO it would be cheaper, easier and better to have 'em, then that would be the perfect bike for me. (As I said before)

I'm not fanatical about any brand of bike, and I always try to improve my riding skills by understanding what the tires are doing on the road. I seek whatever bike best suits my needs.

getting back to the OPs original question; Are you using skill or technology or blind luck? I guess I'm using technology/dumb luck, because I grab the brakes and hope the wizardry works? (As opposed to feel'in the front tire and braking to the limit)

 

Happy 5th!

[Boxtop]

But for those that say that that ABS is not an improvement, or that they can stop better without it, I disagree.

 

To quote our 40th President, "There you go again."

 

Some things never change. In 10 years here, every time ABS comes up in discussion, any argument that isn't "ABS IS AWESOME AND NO BIKE SHOULD EVER BE WITHOUT IT!!!!" is invariably dismissed with claims of chest-thumping.

 

Nobody seems to notice that almost all of the folks who have some less-than-slobbering-praise comments about ABS are, in fact, IN FAVOR of ABS on street bikes. It just happens that they've taken the time to objectively look at the system and have identified its liabilities as well as its benefits, and for that crime, we're call heretics and summarily burned at the stake.

 

But, since I'm in a boring meeting and have some free CPU cycles to burn....

 

I've seen....repeatedly...normal, average, everyday riders get to the point where they can stop their bike better without ABS than with. This process takes just a few hours (one morning). Yes, that is "ideal" conditions, but it still demonstrates what can be done.

 

Getting where that skill is 2nd nature takes a bit more work, but I'd venture a guess that if most riders took half the time they spend washing their bikes and use that practicing, they'd get there.

 

The notion that, in an emergency situation, you'll just freeze and "grab a handful" is complete and total BS. If you haven't learned the correct response...yeah, that's probably what you'll do. But if you've taken some time to get those skills ingrained in your brain, then they'll be there when you need them. It's still an emergency situation and that means (among other things), your fine motor control will be diminished somewhat, but you'll still be able to do far better than just "grab a handful and freeze."

 

I had a situation that happened to me personally, on a non-abs bike where I was met head-on by a car in my lane around a blind corner at night with high beams on. I was blinded and didn't have a shoulder swerve to (even if I could have seen it, which I couldn't). If that doesn't constitute a situation that would lead to the whole "grab a handful and freeze" behavior, I don't know what would. But, I immediately and without thinking fell back on what I had trained. I remember the front wheel starting to tuck, releasing some pressure on the brake, feeding more pressure back in, etc.

 

Now...I fully believe that ABS (and better yet, a linked system where the front brake lever applies both brakes) would have done a better job that me since the computer is operating at full efficiency and isn't fighting survival reactions like a human brain does. BUT...that incident proved to me that, when it counts, you WILL fall back on your training if you've taken the time to make those skills 2nd nature.

 

Another thing that always seems to come up in these arguments, is the idea that "since I have ABS, I don't need to practice braking". This may well be the dumbest argument in the history of the world. First, ABS fails sometimes. Not often, but it does happen and when it does, you've got nothing to fall back on but your own skills. Second, even if your ABS is functioning perfectly and the conditions are ideal for ABS, you will still do better to brake with good technique as if you didn't have ABS. Third, if you don't practice, you really don't have any idea how the system is going to behave. Think your ABS is going to help you when you're leaned over in a curve? Think ABS will keep the bike from getting sideways under really heaving braking? You might be surprised by what happens in those scenarios.

 

One other thing: John (motorman) brought up the issue of awareness. This is HUGE. In the situation I mentioned above, with me meeting an attempted murderer on the wrong side of the road on a blind corner, I was effectively at condition yellow. I was on a tight twisty road at night, so I was already pretty alert. I wasn't specifically looking for a car to come around the blind corner on my side, but I was 100% riding the bike and nothing else.

 

Contrast that with two summers ago when I dropped my Tuono. I wasn't paying attention and was thinking about other things when I pulled into a turnout, braked too hard, found gravel, and tucked the front. I didn't panic and just "grab a handful and freeze", but it took time (probably just miliseconds, but that's an eternity in an emergency) for my brain to get in gear and react. When it did, my skills did kick in and I fought to save the bike. In the end, I wound up running out of road and falling at very low speed. I am convinced that, had I been riding my motorcycle instead of worrying about my camelback, and wondering if the guys behind me saw my signal, I would have: 1. Seen the gravel and not overbraked to begin with. and 2. Responded to the front wheel lockup much faster...before the front had a chance to tuck. It was the recovery from that tuck that nearly highsided me and put me back down on the bike without my feet on the pegs. In that configuration, I didn't have much steering control and I had very little road to work with at that point. (Note: Since the bike was upright when I hit the gravel while braking, that was a situation where ABS would have most likely prevented the spill.)

 

This is something that I find I have more problems with now that I don't ride as much. I used to get on the bike and as soon as the clutch was out, the world went away and I was riding the bike. Now I find myself thinking of other things from time to time, and I have to work harder to keep my brain where it needs to be.

 

 

BTW...you mentioned ABS and Formula 1. Why don't we see ABS in MotoGP?

 

There I go again? I've never before posted on an ABS thread in my life, ever. I swear, and you can ask my wife! (Just kidding. I'm not really married.)

 

And I certainly never said that no bike should be without it. In fact, I listed a number of reasons to get a bike without it, a couple of which you reiterated.

 

But throw some water, oil, diesel, sand, gravel, antifreeze, curves, deer, dogs, drunks (unanticipated braking), i.e., real world conditions, into your ABS vs. non-ABS braking tests, as well as some unbiased, hard quantitative data in lieu of your anecdotal data, and post the results. I think you will find that ABS prevails, convincingly.

 

Agree with most of the balance of your post. You made some good points, including, notably, the acknowledgement that ABS would have likely kept your Tuono upright.

 

As I said before, ABS is no substitute for riding skillfully and prudently, but I'm still glad I have it. Some will liken ABS to the motorcycle equivalent of training wheels, only appropriate for wusses and rookies.

 

Those are the chest thumpers I was refering to.

[russell_bynum]

There I go again? I've never before posted on an ABS thread in my life, ever. I swear, and you can ask my wife! (Just kidding. I'm not really married.)

 

I was referring to the collective "you".

 

[skinny_tom (aka boney)]

Russell, I can stop faster than my ABS. Then I leave the parking lot. (or track, but I've never ridden on one.)

 

Last winter, just for the sake of it, I started doing some braking exercices on wet city streets with all kinds of crazy wet surfaces. I tried to stop without activating the ABS and it would take an eternity. Then, for shits and giggles coupled with some faith, I started "grabbing handfuls" across some of the craziest striped crosswalks, manholes, and bumps you'd ever seen. This is truly braking practice, deliberately activating the ABS when it's the ABS, and ONLY the ABS that's going to save your bacon.

 

No one on this planet can stop their bike that fast without ABS. And until you try it, you'll never understand how much braking distance you'll lose on poor surfaces by not having ABS.

 

Oddly, a study came out not too long ago which confirmed the same:

http://www.iihs.org/research/topics/pdf/r1110.pdf

[russell_bynum]

Tom,

The very best, most advanced ABS can not change the laws of physics. If you just jam on the brakes as hard and as fast as you can, you will overwhelm the front suspension (this is less of a problem on telelever/duolever bikes, but physics is still physics). Sure, ABS will kick in and keep the wheels rolling, but your suspension has a huge impact on your maximum available traction. More available traction means better stopping potential...ABS or not.

 

 

[skinny_tom (aka boney)]

I edited my previous post with additional controversial comments.

[skinny_tom (aka boney)]

Tom,

The very best, most advanced ABS can not change the laws of physics. If you just jam on the brakes as hard and as fast as you can, you will overwhelm the front suspension (this is less of a problem on telelever/duolever bikes, but physics is still physics). Sure, ABS will kick in and keep the wheels rolling, but your suspension has a huge impact on your maximum available traction. More available traction means better stopping potential...ABS or not.

 

 

You are right. But you're still living in the perfect world. It is one in which most of us don't ride.

 

When the available traction is compromised by poor surface quality, water, paint, manholes, oil and whatever else exists on the street everywhere we ride, neither you nor I will be able to outperform a motorcycle equipped with ABS.

[russell_bynum]

Tom,

The very best, most advanced ABS can not change the laws of physics. If you just jam on the brakes as hard and as fast as you can, you will overwhelm the front suspension (this is less of a problem on telelever/duolever bikes, but physics is still physics). Sure, ABS will kick in and keep the wheels rolling, but your suspension has a huge impact on your maximum available traction. More available traction means better stopping potential...ABS or not.

 

 

You are right. But you're still living in the perfect world. It is one in which most of us don't ride.

 

When the available traction is compromised by poor surface quality, water, paint, manholes, oil and whatever else exists on the street everywhere we ride, neither you nor I will be able to outperform a motorcycle equipped with ABS.

 

Most likely. But...neither you, nor I, not ABS can defy the laws of physics.

[Paul Mihalka]

" More available traction means better stopping potential...ABS or not."

Correct, but the key word is potential and how close you can get to using all of it without ending up on your butt. On unknown unpredictable bad surface roads IMHO ABS gets closer to usable potential than 99.9% of the street riders. Russell, you may be in the 0.1% exception, but I know I am not.

Let's keep in mind we are talking touring bikes. On a well set up high quality suspension/sport tire setup the posibility of feeling a impending slide is more likely than on a R1xxxRT with it's telelever front and may be ME880 touring tires.

 

[russell_bynum]

I edited my previous post with additional controversial comments.

 

 

I think you added this:

And until you try it, you'll never understand how much braking distance you'll lose on poor surfaces by not having ABS.

 

Are you suggesting that I haven't tried braking on less-than-perfect surfaces? If so, you'd be very mistaken. I did a track day in the rain. I practice in dirt/sand/gravel/etc on the DRZ. The parking lot where I used to do all of my street bike practice had some low spots that tended to collect sand and gravel, and I'd intentionally run over that. Likewise the oil stains in the parking spots.

 

I'm quite aware of how these different surfaces change the bike's stopping ability.

[russell_bynum]

" More available traction means better stopping potential...ABS or not."

Correct, but the key word is potential and how close you can get to using all of it without ending up on your butt. On unknown unpredictable bad surface roads IMHO ABS gets closer to usable potential than 99.9% of the street riders.

 

Absolutely. IMO, the best use of ABS is in the hands of a skilled rider who practices and knows how to brake properly (as if ABS were not available) and also knows what happens when ABS engages. Braking properly maximizes the potential. Knowing what happens when ABS kicks in and deal with any mistakes will allow you to have the confidence to brake harder and come closer to that potential.

 

 

Russell, you may be in the 0.1% exception, but I know I am not.

 

Nope...I'm not one of those 0.1% (even when I was riding a bunch...which I no longer am.) In fact, these days, since I'm not riding much anymore, I doubt I could do much better than the average Joe.

 

Let's keep in mind we are talking touring bikes. On a well set up high quality suspension/sport tire setup the posibility of feeling a impending slide is more likely than on a R1xxxRT with it's telelever front and may be ME880 touring tires.

 

That's an interesting point. On the other hand, in a "panic" situation, we tend to lose some of that fine motor control that would allow us to feel that last nth degree of feedback that you get from a more sporty tire/suspension setup, so I'm not sure if that really makes a difference out on the road.

[skinny_tom (aka boney)]

I edited my previous post with additional controversial comments.

 

 

I think you added this:

And until you try it, you'll never understand how much braking distance you'll lose on poor surfaces by not having ABS.

 

Are you suggesting that I haven't tried braking on less-than-perfect surfaces? If so, you'd be very mistaken. I did a track day in the rain. I practice in dirt/sand/gravel/etc on the DRZ. The parking lot where I used to do all of my street bike practice had some low spots that tended to collect sand and gravel, and I'd intentionally run over that. Likewise the oil stains in the parking spots.

 

I'm quite aware of how these different surfaces change the bike's stopping ability.

 

It's my understanding that we're discussing paved roads in their various states of condition, if you'd like to introduce dirt and gravel roads on dirt bikes we can do that.

 

You cut out the whole paragraph regarding the rain, paint, manholes and such. And to paraphrase myself I said, "no one can stop their bike in those conditions faster than an ABS equipped bike." Then I said (again a paraphrase) "if you haven't experienced the difference by going out and making the comparison, you'll never know." I suppose I could have made it less "personal" and included "one" instead of "you" but it was a collective "you" much in the same manner you used it earlier when you quoted RR; "there you go again."

 

I don't think I ever challenged your experience, training, or drills. Nor was it my intention. It was my thought to make it clear that if you haven't tried stopping quickly in the wet on an ABS bike AND a non-ABS bike, you won't know how much faster you *could* be stopping on an ABS bike.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Jeez, I think you guys are having two different arguments.

 

What I'm getting from Boney is: "ABS will almost always save your bacon when you screw up. (and you WILL screw up from time to time.)"

 

What I'm getting from Russell is: "train yourself to brake well without engaging the ABS so that your screw-ups are exceedingly rare."

 

There doesn't seem to be a disagreement here. In fact, I think a disagreement isn't even possible, given the positions you've taken up.

 

Whether I've discerned your positions correctly or not, I agree with them both as I've written them there. If you train/practice until you truly grok braking - including the initial buildup to allow for suspension-settle, as well as feeling for the edge of traction - then you can handle more emergency braking situations without falling into a state of panic, which means you've got a couple of advantages working for you:

 

1. you can probably outbrake the ABS, which is a good thing. If not, you'll probably be pretty darn close under most circumstances. If you screw up and brake too much, the ABS will keep you from falling over - and at this point you are braking as fast as the ABS.

 

2. if you're not panicking and thinking "OHSHIIITIGOTTASTOPNOOOOWSTOPNOWSTOPNOW", you may still be able to rethink your response options. Maybe a swerve maneuver will actually be better than trying to come to a dead stop; if you're still in conscious rational control of your body, then you can let up on the brakes and swerve, but if you're in a simple PANIC-stop mode, you will not do anything except engage the ABS.

[russell_bynum]

Mitch: Yep, that sums up my position pretty well, but I would request that you add "train yourself to get the most out of the system."

 

...unless you consider "screwing up" to include "not braking correctly", in which case your summary is spot on.

 

My beef is (and has always been) with the "I have ABS so I don't need to learn how to use the brakes." people, and with the "In an emergency situation you're just going to mentally lock up and no amount of training is going to help you." Both of those positions are stupid and dangerous.

 

I LIKE ABS. If it had been an option on the Tuono I would have taken it (assuming it was implemented well.) I liked it on my RT and I like it on Lisa's RS. But, like any other system, if you're going to get the most out of it, you need to practice with it and you need to understand what it can and can not do.

[tallman]

Russell,

That oil in the parking lot, would that be dino or synthetic?

Which allows for a shorter stopping distance?

[motorman587]

Mitch: Yep, that sums up my position pretty well, but I would request that you add "train yourself to get the most out of the system."

 

...unless you consider "screwing up" to include "not braking correctly", in which case your summary is spot on.

 

My beef is (and has always been) with the "I have ABS so I don't need to learn how to use the brakes." people, and with the "In an emergency situation you're just going to mentally lock up and no amount of training is going to help you." Both of those positions are stupid and dangerous.

 

I LIKE ABS. If it had been an option on the Tuono I would have taken it (assuming it was implemented well.) I liked it on my RT and I like it on Lisa's RS. But, like any other system, if you're going to get the most out of it, you need to practice with it and you need to understand what it can and can not do.

 

 

 

 

When we train and someone goes into the ABS mode they are told tht, that is not good. So are training is gear towards correct useage of the brakes and not to relay on the ABS, and in fact for get that it there and learn out to correct way to use the brakes.

[russell_bynum]

Russell,

That oil in the parking lot, would that be dino or synthetic?

Which allows for a shorter stopping distance?

 

LOL. Don't make me come over there.

 

 

[David]

Tom, yes, Russell does practice braking in parking lots all the time. In fact, I think I have a picture of him doing it in Colorado on a week long trip we took.

 

Russell, should I dig it out?

[Firefight911]

Mitch: Yep, that sums up my position pretty well, but I would request that you add "train yourself to get the most out of the system."

 

...unless you consider "screwing up" to include "not braking correctly", in which case your summary is spot on.

 

My beef is (and has always been) with the "I have ABS so I don't need to learn how to use the brakes." people, and with the "In an emergency situation you're just going to mentally lock up and no amount of training is going to help you." Both of those positions are stupid and dangerous.

 

I LIKE ABS. If it had been an option on the Tuono I would have taken it (assuming it was implemented well.) I liked it on my RT and I like it on Lisa's RS. But, like any other system, if you're going to get the most out of it, you need to practice with it and you need to understand what it can and can not do.

 

 

 

 

When we train and someone goes into the ABS mode they are told tht, that is not good. So are training is gear towards correct useage of the brakes and not to relay on the ABS, and in fact for get that it there and learn out to correct way to use the brakes.

 

1st - I am in the Russel camp on this. Train, train, train!!!!!!!

 

2nd - Motorman! WTH are you smoking? I can't understand any of what you just wrote.

[smiller]

Tom, yes, Russell does practice braking in parking lots all the time. In fact, I think I have a picture of him doing it in Colorado on a week long trip we took.

Oh, I thought that picture was of him demonstrating the lack of need for ABS.

[russell_bynum]

Tom, yes, Russell does practice braking in parking lots all the time. In fact, I think I have a picture of him doing it in Colorado on a week long trip we took.

 

Russell, should I dig it out?

 

Everybody's a comedian.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

When we train and someone goes into the ABS mode they are told tht, that is not good. So are training is gear towards correct useage of the brakes and not to relay on the ABS, and in fact for get that it there and learn out to correct way to use the brakes.

 

:clap: :clap: :clap:

 

FANTASTIC! This training will serve you and your colleagues well. You will be developing a visceral "feel" for how quickly the bike can come to a stop, and how much distance is required to do so; this will help you decide intelligently how to ride in various traffic conditions. Moreover you are developing the reflexive actions to decelerate as rapidly as possible while still keeping your mind (instead of your panic) in the game.

[tallman]

Phil,

I think John was saying that they train to reach maximum braking, to the threshold of ABS activation, w/out activating the ABS.

Sort of a combination of Mitch's 2 camp thesis above.

Train to avoid then be prepared to brake to max as if you didn't have ABS.

However, I know that john's crew, as all of us have, encountered situations where time and space dictated crossing that threshold.

For the motor patrol, that may imply that there was something they may have done to avoid being in that situation to begin with.

 

[motorman587]

Phil,

Sorry, for whatever reason when I attempt to type with a quote it will not show me what I am typing. Just happened today and now again. I am also know as not the best grammer/speller person.

 

Mitch and Tallman got what I was trying to say. Forgot that you have ABS and just brake like you would normal would. Train/pratice.

[Firefight911]

Phil,

Sorry, for whatever reason when I attempt to type with a quote it will not show me what I am typing. Just happened today and now again. I am also know as not the best grammer/speller person.

 

Mitch and Tallman got what I was trying to say. Forgot that you have ABS and just brake like you would normal would. Train/pratice.

 

Love it! Got it and that is, if I may speak for Russell, exactly what we have been getting at. Train, get good at braking, ABS is great but don't use it as a brake strategy, rely on your developed skills to perform when needed, and, I will add again, don't give us any excuses that you aren't good enough, blah, blah, blah. We all just need to train more and more to GET good.

 

Fabulous!!

[ShovelStrokeEd]

A little tidbit here.

 

A really good ABS system will allow a certain amount of skidding of either wheel. Reason, that is where maximum traction exists. Right around a 10% skid with a warm tire.

 

A really good rider can approach this same degree of traction on a good surface, or even a poor one. There is a feel that comes with the notification of an impending skid, the steering gets just a little vague and directional control does the same. It takes practice to find this point and that is where ABS becomes a wonderful tool. It would be even better if it gave some indication (flashing light) that it was activated.

 

Point is, if, in your braking practice, you never activate the ABS, you are not quite braking hard enough. If you don't have it, you should concentrate on getting to that point where things feel a little wivery and then work on maintaining that, modulating pressure on the grip as the speeds go down to avoid a skid. Even a front wheel skid is easily recoverable so long as the bike is upright and traveling in a straight line. Deviate from either of those at your peril, at least when it comes to maximum effort braking. Of course, ABS won't save your butt in that situation either unless your deviation is very small.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

It would be even better if it gave some indication (flashing light) that it was activated.

 

Boy o boy, I've wanted exactly this for many years. On your car you get a nice foot massage for feedback, but on the bike, nothing...

[vizhip]

Braking has been a concern of mine since I first took the class... and no... I am still not that comfortable on a bike, thus I continue to practice in the neighborhood until I feel I am comfortable to get out on the road...

 

In the class we were given bikes that had good pickup and zero ABS... and one of the things they covered was quick stopping... another was swerve then quick stop...

 

Also covered was what to do when you lock up your front brake or rear brake...

 

After a few hours in the rain practicing these methods, I look at what ABS has to offer and quite frankly picked a BMW because of its ABS... and after taking one on a test ride knew it was a very comfortable bike that I wanted to grow into, even if it was twice as heavy and twice the power of what I learned on... (yes, I took the class first to decide if I wanted to get a bike)...

 

Of course, since it is my first bike, I have chosen an older (2000) model... and because I am older myself, I wanted a bike that I felt very comfortable sitting on... thus the R1100RT...

 

This bike is much different from the one I trained with, thus it is taken a while to adjust to it... (yes, I am a slow learner), but what several have pointed out as problems have helped me adjust to this bike better...

 

I don't think there is really a clear answer to this question of ABS VS skill because it has a lot to do with the rider's style... but part of the skill is knowing how to use the ABS... so in a way, it is ALL about skill...

 

I will point out that if you are slightly turned and the wheels lock up, you will go down FAST... I learned this in the class... so if ABS will help prevent this or give me an extra second or so to adjust... I am all for it...

 

Regards -

-Bob

[BanjoBoy]

Welcome aboard Bob,

practice makes perfect. You can never learn too much or practice too much. And the key is to relax, and have fun with it.

[smiller]

It would be even better if it gave some indication (flashing light) that it was activated.

On the new bikes if ASC is activated you get a flashing indicator on the display. It would no doubt be trivial to do the same thing for ABS if they desired, not sure why they don't.

[Goldie]

It would be even better if it gave some indication (flashing light) that it was activated.

 

Boy o boy, I've wanted exactly this for many years. On your car you get a nice foot massage for feedback, but on the bike, nothing...

 

My F800GS pulses noticeably when the ABS is activated. I can feel it quite clearly if it comes on over a rutted road.

 

And the R1150GS rear would clunk if you tried to stop on a loose dirt road.

[skinny_tom (aka boney)]

Okay, time to stir the pot.

 

If I'm braking in the rain and knowingly rely on my ABS to manage the odd paint stripe, man hole, or other slippery surface, am I;

 

A) Employing bad technique because I'm relying on technology to adjust for the minor things.

 

B) Employing good technique, because I'm practiced and aware of the system's capabilities, and using them to my advantage.

 

or

 

C) Taking my chance- you know those wizzy brakes are funky.

[Firefight911]

Only you can answer this question as it applies to you alone.

 

I would offer this as food for thought -

 

What is your back up strategy (plan B) for the time your systems don't function as they are supposed to or as expected for whatever reason. If you have one that is reasonable, safe, and easily accessible when necessary then it works for you. Proceed with caution.

 

For me, ABS will never be the first choice. It will always be MY back up system. I rely on my ability to brake all the way up to, but just short of, complete ABS activation. If my mental to physical brake modulation interface computer fails (me) I will utilize my redundant back up system called ABS. If this also fails, you will see Fred Flintstone emerge as never before as I reboot the main frame (me), utilize max front/rear braking, exercise swerving, or whatever I can to then avoid the hazard in front of me. One thing for sure, I'll ride her all the way in to the ground before I give up on avoiding the hazards that got me in the position I am now in.

[SageRider]

For me, ABS will never be the first choice. It will always be MY back up system. I rely on my ability to brake all the way up to, but just short of, complete ABS activation. If my mental to physical brake modulation interface computer fails (me) I will utilize my redundant back up system called ABS.

Well stated, Phil. Expresses my personal feelings too!

[Firefight911]

And here is proof positive as to why one should NOT utilize ABS as a frontline brake strategy.

 

THE FREAKIEST THING JUST HAPPENED

 

I almost don't believe what just happened. The installation of the 2D MotoGP dash wasn't completed today, so I was told that some functions on the bike will not show on the display until tomorrow, where they can complete the installation of the entire software. I commute on the bike so had to ride it home.

 

What I didn't know was that the ABS was disconnected due to the partial install.

 

On the way home, in a major downpour of course, as it's been raining everyday. As I get on Manhattan streets a FedEx truck cuts me off from the left with no warning, no signal. Not knowing that the ABS is not active I brake normally leaning mostly on the front. With the roads being wet, within a fraction of a second, the front wheel locks and the bike leans over on it's right side at about 45 degrees fully intent of going into a low side. I thought I was going to low side for sure. I let go of the front brake, put my right foot down, give it gas and the bike rights itself and keeps in lane, as if nothing had just happened.

 

Keep in mind all this happened within 1 second. It took just about 1 second from the time the FedEx truck cut me off to bike straightening itself, due to release of front brake, foot down and acceleration. Wild ride indeed.

 

And there was a 7 Series driving behind me who witnessed the whole thing, you should have seen the look on his face. He passed me by slowly shaking his head in disbelief in what he just witnessed. A sure fire low side in the middle of Manhattan, on a rainy evening avoided!!!!

 

Text borrowed and quoted from one of the K bike sites I frequent.

 

Yes, an accident avoided but, I think this was blind luck based on reliance of technology vs. utilization of skill.

[smiller]

Okay, time to stir the pot.

 

If I'm braking in the rain and knowingly rely on my ABS to manage the odd paint stripe, man hole, or other slippery surface, am I;

 

A) Employing bad technique because I'm relying on technology to adjust for the minor things.

 

B) Employing good technique, because I'm practiced and aware of the system's capabilities, and using them to my advantage.

I think this is an interesting question. In the example Phil cited it ended up being inadvisable to count on the ABS, but... that was a kind of unusual situation (the bike in the middle of a modification procedure.) Normally ABS is extremely reliable, or at least will provide a fault indication if it has failed. Given this, and given the conditions (rain-slick city streets, with no way to know what grunge is under the rain) it's quite probable that ABS would do a much better job than even the most trained rider because even the most trained rider cannot possibly know what kind of traction is really available (beyond that it's going to be piss-poor), and no human being is going to be able to modulate brakes as well as a good ABS system on a surface as slick as water-covered munge. Given those considerations I don't think it's a crazy idea to rely on ABS under those specific conditions.

[russell_bynum]

Given those considerations I don't think it's a crazy idea to rely on ABS under those specific conditions.

 

Define "rely on".

 

If you mean you're doing your best to brake properly and modulate pressure to keep the wheels turning...but using the knowledge that ABS is there to bail you out when you screw up to boost your confidence to try that much harder...I think that's an excellent way to go.

 

If you mean that you're going to throw technique out the window and just "grab a handful because I've got ABS", then that's not a smart way to go.

[smiller]

Define "rely on".

 

If you mean you're doing your best to brake properly and modulate pressure to keep the wheels turning...but using the knowledge that ABS is there to bail you out when you screw up to boost your confidence to try that much harder...I think that's an excellent way to go.

 

If you mean that you're going to throw technique out the window and just "grab a handful because I've got ABS", then that's not a smart way to go.

I guess I mean something kind of in-between. I don't mean 'pull the lever back to the grip and pray', but I may well apply more brake more quickly than I might otherwise (considering the extremely slick road conditions) and allow ABS to sort out any over-enthusiasm on my part. I find it hard to believe that tactic wouldn't result in a shorter stop (again, under these specific circumstances.)

[russell_bynum]

I think we're talking about the same thing.

 

I know that in my practice, I always felt more comfortable pushing myself that much harder because I knew ABS was there as a safety net. If your intention is to not need ABS, but the knowledge that ABS is there gives you the confidence to brake that much harder, then ABS is helping you...whether you actually engage it or not.

[Firefight911]

I think we're talking about the same thing.

 

I know that in my practice, I always felt more comfortable pushing myself that much harder because I knew ABS was there as a safety net. If your intention is to not need ABS, but the knowledge that ABS is there gives you the confidence to brake that much harder, then ABS is helping you...whether you actually engage it or not.

 

Agreed and +1.

[smiller]

I think we're talking about the same thing.

Yeah, probably. But then again when I said that I didn't mean 'pull the lever to the grip and pray' what I probably really meant is that while I believe I've trained myself to do better I can't really be absolutely certain (nor can anyone else I believe) that if a FedEx truck makes a 90-degree turn directly in front of me in the rain that I wouldn't do exactly that. Covering for human frailties and the errors of judgment that we all can make in emergencies is one of the real values of ABS, and why I'm always perplexed when someone decides to remove it.

[tallman]

I think we're talking about the same thing.

 

I know that in my practice, I always felt more comfortable pushing myself that much harder because I knew ABS was there as a safety net. If your intention is to not need ABS, but the knowledge that ABS is there gives you the confidence to brake that much harder, then ABS is helping you...whether you actually engage it or not.

 

Agreed and +1.

 

Yep, but can I borrow your bike to practice with?

[motoguy128]

I look at it this way, if I'm loaded down with my wife and 100lbs of gear on my RT, and I'm presented with a downhill stop with gravel. I'm happy as all h*** that I can just grab the brakes and not worry about controlling a slide.

 

On my last trip there was a restaurant with a loose gravel parking lot with very steep inclines. While I would have been OK without ABS and ASC, it sure made it easier just gassing it up the hill and riding the brakes downhill without worry.

 

They can make you a litle overconfident... but so can the power the bike makes... but I wouldn't want to give up 20HP because I might not attempt a "tighter" pass on a 2 lane road wthout it.