Braking - Are you using skill or technology or blind luck?

[Firefight911]

I have been involved in a, shall we say, "spirited" conversation on the F800 board concerning the use of ABS as a braking strategy.

 

I ask for your input on this topic as there have been some good pieces of information presented and I think we can all learn from it. I also believe that there has been some bad information posted. Again, I feel we can all learn from it.

 

Here is the post.

 

We had a member post earlier concerning his use of ABS - HERE - and feel that this topic warrants study in the 'Ride Well' forum.

 

I look forward to this think tank's input.

[Tony_K]

Personally after coming off bikes with brakes that are far from sophisticated (early disc and drum set ups) I try to ride as if brakes are a accessory not a necessity.

 

What that means is I try not to get in sitiuations where ABS even needs to kick on. Oh, I'm glad it's there and I know there have been situations where I would have washed the front end on anything else but I don't depend on that particular feature as law to ride any way I want because I will be miraculously saved by technology. Rather I adjust my thinking to enviroment, line sight, road conditions and speed. I try to keep drum brake thinking in the mix as to not get too spoiled!

 

 

 

[Huzband]

Maybe ABS is better to have than not, but I'm not entirely convinced. For me, I don't rely on it at all. I really don't even think about it, except when it activates when I don't want it to. I struggled with it all day at Jennings last Oct, & I often feel it when I'm doing a normal (to me) stop. I have yet to be in a situation where I was glad it was there. Not that that won't ever happen, it just hasn't yet.

 

But I'll further your question, Phil. Is the development of ABS on bikes contributing to the detriment of rider skill?

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

FWIW, I have deliberately used ABS for two purposes:

 

1. To develop a feel for just how frickin long it takes to stop the bike. It is a disconcerting lesson to know that it will take you "this much" distance to haul your bike from 70 to zero, and I think everyone with an ABS-equipped bike ought to try it. If more people did this, I think fewer people would tailgate. (and just to squelch the nitpickers - yes, you can probably stop faster by deliberately not engaging the ABS, but not much.)

 

2. To learn just how hard you can squeeze the lever/pedal before lockup. The first time I did this was a track day back in 2001. I deliberately wanted to avoid using ABS, but I wanted to develop a feel for how hard I could brake without it, and the ABS made it relatively safe to learn that. The sport bikes would always pass me about half way down the long straightaway, but they were always gentle on the brakes at the end because they didn't know how hard the could brake; so at the end of the straightaway I always passed them because I could wait longer and brake harder.

 

 

[Woodie]

Unskilled user here.

 

I very rarely feel it (which is as it should be).

 

I don't do the threshold braking business, but I do *know* very well that I don't have to be afraid of grabbing a big old handful of brake when I feel the need. It gives me confidence in the ability of the bike, when the operator has not spend time on training. This is particularly applicable during those rainy days, when the road conditions can vary from foot to foot.

 

 

[Goldie]

Skill, augmented by technology when required, with luck in varying quantities depending on the circumstance.

 

So they all contribute.

[4wheeldog]

Skill, augmented by technology when required, with luck in varying quantities depending on the circumstance.

 

So they all contribute.

 

+1. I learned to ride long enough ago that brakes were not something you counted on like we do today. So I use brakes much more lightly than I see from others around me. But I had the "One time" when I was daydreaming, and the rig in front of me had no brake lights.......That I was so glad to just be able to squeeze as hard as I liked. It worked out fine, as it MIGHT have without the ABS.......But I was very glad not to be on the other side of the test.

[russell_bynum]

Those of you who say you rely on skill...

 

Do you do anything to make sure that skill is appropriate, effective, and 2nd Nature?

[Francois_Dumas]

Skill.... ABS may come in handy one day, but I've never counted on it, nor used it so far. Anticipation is better......

[leikam]

Those of you who say you rely on skill...

 

Do you do anything to make sure that skill is appropriate, effective, and 2nd Nature?

 

Of course I do. I put reflective tape on my brake calipers and make sure it's clean before each ride. If that should fail for some unimaginable reason, I've honed my reflexes with moderate braking in ordinary riding situations. If that should fail, I'm sure I can rely on a technology that I don't really understand to save me from forces, the physics of which are beyond me. If that should fail, I have several magical luck-enhancing charms and superstitions. I might not brake faster than you, but I'll brake luckier every time. And, purely hypothetically, if luck isn't enough, ATGATT makes me immune to harm.

 

I guess you could say that I don't really rely on skill, luck or technology, but a patented, multi-layered braking system/platform/gestalt.

[russell_bynum]

LOL!

[motorman587]

I too had ABS save my a$$ this weekend. Also a deer. I did straight line hard braking. Can not tell feel I went into the ABS mode or not. My a$$ was in my heart. It was close.

 

All I got to say about ABS is that, I ride everyday in traffic going after people. I think I pretty good braker. We train once a month, are a MSF ridecoach etc..........

 

You brain is not quick enough to save you on a wheel lock up. We never ride in the yellow condition thinking about braking at max. When you ride you are thinking about how great life is or in white condition, so nobody knows how they are going to react when the time comes.

 

ABS is go to have M2CW.

[upflying]

I ride a non-abs bike 99% of the time. Seldom experience lock up.

Rode my ABS equipped BMW for 5 years and 30,000 mi in stop and go urban traffic. Only had ABS activate occasionally over railroad tracks and manhole covers. I guess my vote goes to skill.

[Boxtop]

I'm using a moderate amount of skill combined with technology. ABS allows one to brake quite effectively without a great deal of skill. That's one of the things that's so great about it. Blind luck doesn't play into it, unless you call it blind luck that ABS came along.

 

Does riding an ABS-equipped bike degrade or hinder one's ability to stop a non-ABS-equipped bike most effectively? Of course, just as upgrading to a car degrades one's ability to drive a horse and buggy effectively.

 

Too often, these ABS threads head south into chest thumping territory. Some will say that supremely talented riders (themselves) can brake more effectively without ABS. To this, I say hooey.

 

F1 banned ABS, what, about 20 years ago, because it was deemed an electronic driver's aid. These are the best drivers in the world driving under extremely controlled conditions, yet they were voluntarily using first generation ABS, with all its associated weight and added complexity, prior to the ban. Obviously, teams and drivers felt it helped them.

 

That being said, it can be very dangerous for riders with only ABS experience to jump on a non-ABS bike. Same holds true for cars. And ABS is not a substitute for riding skillfully and prudently.

 

But for those that say that that ABS is not an improvement, or that they can stop better without it, I disagree.

 

The above discussion pertains to road bikes. And if you say that you prefer non-ABS, because you're a traditionalist, or because you want to keep your non-ABS braking skills sharp, or because you don't trust modern-day technology, I got no problem with that.

 

 

[Twisties]

I'm still not really sure what happened with the stoppie I posted about a few weeks ago. I think it was a true panic brake grab. Although I practice "threshold" braking regularly, that is braking hard until the abs activates, there is simply no comparison. I don't think I'm able to bring myself to grab the brake that hard and fast as I did in a true panic situation during practice. So I'm going to agree somewhat with JoelW in the linked thread.

 

I also agree with Phil. It was practice in what JoelW called "anti-panic" stops that enabled me to react quickly and surely enough, and control the result.

 

So I'm going to suggest something a little out there. It's not something I'm sure of, just a thought. Kinda agreeing with whoever it was that said that the test track result may not have too much to do with a real life panic stop.

 

I think that in a true panic brake grab with good road conditions you may not activate abs, and you may achieve much faster stopping than test track stats. I think that's what happened to me anyway in the stoppie. The transfer of weight to the front wheel anyway was very fast and very dramatic and very much not the typical threshold braking experience, or the abs activation experience.

[leikam]

Here is the post.

 

I thought the commments about panic responses and fight/flight physiology were very intersting.

[Rotor]

I agree with you; and, I understand where Joelw is coming from. It's my opinion one can train so that your natural reaction in a panic situation will revert to your training - without thought of it. My opinion for ABS is this: it's there to assist you when encountering something on the road surface that would cause threshold braking to turn into a lock-up - like threshold braking and encountering a painted intersection stop bar for example.

 

I too have a considerable amount of training and am an experienced instructor; none-the-less, I'm sure there are many that will not agree. I have locked my front tire and scared the mud out of myself; therefore, according to joelw, I have experienced the fear and should now be capable of dealing with it through training??

 

Heck, I scared the crap out of myself 318 times this weekend on the dragon!

[smiller]

It is a disconcerting lesson to know that it will take you "this much" distance to haul your bike from 70 to zero, and I think everyone with an ABS-equipped bike ought to try it.

This is really true, and an eye-opener for anyone who hasn't practiced it. Modern bikes can decelerate so hard that they give the rider the impression that you can stop 'right now.' But try a full-on stop from 70 to zero and you'll see just how far 'right now' really is...

[russell_bynum]

But for those that say that that ABS is not an improvement, or that they can stop better without it, I disagree.

 

To quote our 40th President, "There you go again."

 

Some things never change. In 10 years here, every time ABS comes up in discussion, any argument that isn't "ABS IS AWESOME AND NO BIKE SHOULD EVER BE WITHOUT IT!!!!" is invariably dismissed with claims of chest-thumping.

 

Nobody seems to notice that almost all of the folks who have some less-than-slobbering-praise comments about ABS are, in fact, IN FAVOR of ABS on street bikes. It just happens that they've taken the time to objectively look at the system and have identified its liabilities as well as its benefits, and for that crime, we're call heretics and summarily burned at the stake.

 

But, since I'm in a boring meeting and have some free CPU cycles to burn....

 

I've seen....repeatedly...normal, average, everyday riders get to the point where they can stop their bike better without ABS than with. This process takes just a few hours (one morning). Yes, that is "ideal" conditions, but it still demonstrates what can be done.

 

Getting where that skill is 2nd nature takes a bit more work, but I'd venture a guess that if most riders took half the time they spend washing their bikes and use that practicing, they'd get there.

 

The notion that, in an emergency situation, you'll just freeze and "grab a handful" is complete and total BS. If you haven't learned the correct response...yeah, that's probably what you'll do. But if you've taken some time to get those skills ingrained in your brain, then they'll be there when you need them. It's still an emergency situation and that means (among other things), your fine motor control will be diminished somewhat, but you'll still be able to do far better than just "grab a handful and freeze."

 

I had a situation that happened to me personally, on a non-abs bike where I was met head-on by a car in my lane around a blind corner at night with high beams on. I was blinded and didn't have a shoulder swerve to (even if I could have seen it, which I couldn't). If that doesn't constitute a situation that would lead to the whole "grab a handful and freeze" behavior, I don't know what would. But, I immediately and without thinking fell back on what I had trained. I remember the front wheel starting to tuck, releasing some pressure on the brake, feeding more pressure back in, etc.

 

Now...I fully believe that ABS (and better yet, a linked system where the front brake lever applies both brakes) would have done a better job that me since the computer is operating at full efficiency and isn't fighting survival reactions like a human brain does. BUT...that incident proved to me that, when it counts, you WILL fall back on your training if you've taken the time to make those skills 2nd nature.

 

Another thing that always seems to come up in these arguments, is the idea that "since I have ABS, I don't need to practice braking". This may well be the dumbest argument in the history of the world. First, ABS fails sometimes. Not often, but it does happen and when it does, you've got nothing to fall back on but your own skills. Second, even if your ABS is functioning perfectly and the conditions are ideal for ABS, you will still do better to brake with good technique as if you didn't have ABS. Third, if you don't practice, you really don't have any idea how the system is going to behave. Think your ABS is going to help you when you're leaned over in a curve? Think ABS will keep the bike from getting sideways under really heaving braking? You might be surprised by what happens in those scenarios.

 

One other thing: John (motorman) brought up the issue of awareness. This is HUGE. In the situation I mentioned above, with me meeting an attempted murderer on the wrong side of the road on a blind corner, I was effectively at condition yellow. I was on a tight twisty road at night, so I was already pretty alert. I wasn't specifically looking for a car to come around the blind corner on my side, but I was 100% riding the bike and nothing else.

 

Contrast that with two summers ago when I dropped my Tuono. I wasn't paying attention and was thinking about other things when I pulled into a turnout, braked too hard, found gravel, and tucked the front. I didn't panic and just "grab a handful and freeze", but it took time (probably just miliseconds, but that's an eternity in an emergency) for my brain to get in gear and react. When it did, my skills did kick in and I fought to save the bike. In the end, I wound up running out of road and falling at very low speed. I am convinced that, had I been riding my motorcycle instead of worrying about my camelback, and wondering if the guys behind me saw my signal, I would have: 1. Seen the gravel and not overbraked to begin with. and 2. Responded to the front wheel lockup much faster...before the front had a chance to tuck. It was the recovery from that tuck that nearly highsided me and put me back down on the bike without my feet on the pegs. In that configuration, I didn't have much steering control and I had very little road to work with at that point. (Note: Since the bike was upright when I hit the gravel while braking, that was a situation where ABS would have most likely prevented the spill.)

 

This is something that I find I have more problems with now that I don't ride as much. I used to get on the bike and as soon as the clutch was out, the world went away and I was riding the bike. Now I find myself thinking of other things from time to time, and I have to work harder to keep my brain where it needs to be.

 

 

BTW...you mentioned ABS and Formula 1. Why don't we see ABS in MotoGP?

 

[russell_bynum]

Here is the post.

 

I thought the commments about panic responses and fight/flight physiology were very intersting.

 

Yeah, that was good stuff.

[Huzband]

Ya know, it occurs to me. Braking responses are best learned in the dirt.

 

Example; You're bookin' along on an unfarmiliar trail at a clip that's about nine-tenths of your ability. SUDDENLY, there's a rock or tree in your path, & you have to change direction, NOW! Do you depend on ABS to save your butt, or do you depend on skill? Or worse yet, luck?

 

ABS or not, proper braking requires practice. Riders with ABS have been known to crash by over-riding the abilities of the ABS. In other words, the physics of enertia over-came the ABS, & they crashed anyway.

 

Dirt is the best way to practice braking. If you over-brake, you slide. Under-brake, no consequence. If you fall, not too much pain.

 

I highly recommend this learning technique.

[tallman]

Russell,

ABS technology is evolving.

The recent Honda addition to their 600/1000 bikes was tested by professional riders for Cycle World 2-3 months ago.

It took these professionals 4 tries to get the non-ABS stopping distance shorter than the ABS (in only in that one particular test condition) and that was only by one foot.

In almost every other test situation, using rear brake only, and using both brakes, on all surfaces and conditions,

the professional riders couldn't get the same bike, same model just non-ABS, on the same test conditions at the same location/time/weather etc, they could not out perform the results obtained using the new Honda system.

 

That is the most recent data point available.

It speaks loudly to the fact that even professional riders can't get better results from a non-ABS bike, when comparing apples to apples.

 

I'm all in favor of practice.

And, I notice the tone of your replies on this topic has (IMO) mellowed over time.

You seem more open to the results and less likely to immediately say that w/practice anyone can do as well or better w/a non-ABS bike.

I commend you for being open minded.

 

I know that I'll most likely never have the skills of the riders who tested the new Honda system.

But the results say that wouldn't matter as the data was very one sided in favor of the ABS bikes.

And, in some conditions, the overall advantage provided by the ABS system was so large that it makes me wonder why anyone would want to give up that demonstrable/quantifiable advantage in almost every condition for the possibility that one might do as well as an ABS bike in a very limited paradigm.

 

I concede that in some road conditions an ABS system may activate and potentially make stopping distance longer (older BMW system and stop sign warning ripple on a downhill, for example).

But these are forseeable situations unlike the immediacy of circumstances that might lead to ABS activation due to deer, other drivers, etc.

 

No system is fool proof.

No one has the skills to avoid a problem when braking in every conceivable situation.

No one is lucky all the time.

 

I believe in tipping the odds in one's favor by using the best technology, practice, and yes, getting lucky.

I've had all three come into play, somtimes alone and sometimes in conjunction w/one another.

Best wishes.

[Couchrocket]

I've practiced "emergency braking" 'til I'm blue in the face.

 

BUT, the practice has never been able to replicate what happens when the great horned rats jump out in front of you, or some other "scary" thing presents itself "all of a sudden" in real life.

 

ERGO, my penchant for ABS. It won't save me, it isn't a panacea for anything, but it "might" buy me that little piece of time enough to get my head out of my #@@ and get my panic reaction back under the control of my brain.

 

 

 

[Goldie]

Ya know, it occurs to me. Braking responses are best learned in the dirt.

 

Example; You're bookin' along on an unfarmiliar trail at a clip that's about nine-tenths of your ability. SUDDENLY, there's a rock or tree in your path, & you have to change direction, NOW! Do you depend on ABS to save your butt, or do you depend on skill? Or worse yet, luck?

 

Dirt riding is pretty much the only reason to turn the ABS off on the GS BMWs.

 

I've had a number of "Woah Woah Tabernac" moments, going down large loose bouldered hills when the bike just won't stop because the ABS says skidding wheels are not allowed... and I forgot to turn the ABS off.

[Goldie]

I've practiced "emergency braking" 'til I'm blue in the face.

 

BUT, the practice has never been able to replicate what happens when the great horned rats jump out in front of you, or some other "scary" thing presents itself "all of a sudden" in real life.

 

ERGO, my penchant for ABS. It won't save me, it isn't a panacea for anything, but it "might" buy me that little piece of time enough to get my head out of my #@@ and get my panic reaction back under the control of my brain.

 

+1

 

My feelings exactly. Not depending on it or riding faster because of it, but glad it's there to help when I need all the help I can get for reasons outside of my control.

[russell_bynum]

Tim,

I haven't gotten to ride the new CBR's with ABS, but I enjoyed that article quite a bit. It's exciting technology and it's definitely getting better and better.

 

One thing though...I maintain that braking "properly" (using good technique rather than just "jam on the brakes as hard and as quickly as you can") will give you better results, even with the best ABS. The reason is that there's more to braking than just the brakes. The suspension and the chassis are a huge part of it. Bringing the brakes up to pressure smoothly allows the suspension to work better. If you just jam on the brakes, you overwhelm the compression damping circuit in the forks (or front shock on a telelever BMW). That takes the suspension out of its best working range, which means you've got less traction to work with.

 

Hence, practice and technique is still the best way to go.

 

If that fails you (which does happen from time to time), then technology can help. And where they fails, luck is always nice to have.

 

Understanding the particular system(s) of your motorcycle, and knowing what it does in various conditions (which means PRACTICE) is critical if you want to get the most out of it, and if you want to not be surprised when you expect your bike to do one thing and it does something else.

[lvnvbiker]

I have had bike with and without ABS now and for me the ABS is a great addition to skilled and non skilled riders. I spent many years on bikes that had a "suggestion" lever not a brake lever and learned to ride accordingly, but still put myself into situations that real brakes were needed while daydreaming or looking at the hottie in the cage. I try to focus on the road, but now and then my ADD/ADHD gets the best of me and I go stupid. I also practice controled braking, use the rear out of habit, and try to beat the ABS fairly often when I am someplace that it is possible. I do not need ABS brakes, but having the occasion to put them into action a few times now makes me appriciate them being there. There is no replacement for training and practicing threshold braking, but ABS comes pretty close and for alot of riders it has saved them a trip to the ER in true panic situations.

[tallman]

Tim,

I haven't gotten to ride the new CBR's with ABS, but I enjoyed that article quite a bit. It's exciting technology and it's definitely getting better and better.

 

One thing though...I maintain that braking "properly" (using good technique rather than just "jam on the brakes as hard and as quickly as you can") will give you better results, even with the best ABS. The reason is that there's more to braking than just the brakes. The suspension and the chassis are a huge part of it. Bringing the brakes up to pressure smoothly allows the suspension to work better. If you just jam on the brakes, you overwhelm the compression damping circuit in the forks (or front shock on a telelever BMW). That takes the suspension out of its best working range, which means you've got less traction to work with.

 

Hence, practice and technique is still the best way to go.

 

If that fails you (which does happen from time to time), then technology can help. And where they fails, luck is always nice to have.

 

Understanding the particular system(s) of your motorcycle, and knowing what it does in various conditions (which means PRACTICE) is critical if you want to get the most out of it, and if you want to not be surprised when you expect your bike to do one thing and it does something else.

 

Russell,

I agree, which is why their new system is so intriquing.

Pros w/pratice couldn't obtain better reults in almost any condition and in some of the tests the differences were measured in multiples of yards, not feet.

It will be interesting to see what systems involving slipper clutch, traction control, and ABS are marketed in 5 years.

Best wishes.

[Francois_Dumas]

Those of you who say you rely on skill...

 

Do you do anything to make sure that skill is appropriate, effective, and 2nd Nature?

 

 

Yup, proper education to begin with, training and regular exercise.

[smiller]

Since the title of the thread mentions 'skill vs. technology' I'll note something about the K1200GT I just bought that I'm not sure what to think about...

 

The partially-integrated braking system automatically applies rear brake (dynamically based on front brake application force, decelleration rate, etc.) and it works pretty well, in fact disconcertingly well (meaning it's kind of humiliating in that I thought 30+ years of riding would have taught me how to use a rear brake more effectively than a computer.) Another nice thing about the system is that the rider can disable it at will by pressing on the rear brake lever, in which case the system will override the linked system and use the rider's input instead. But in spite of the fact that the system often provides a faster stop in automatic vs. manual mode I find myself operating the rear brake manually out of habit... after having used a rear brake for my entire riding career it's a hard habit to break. As a result I know that in an emergency situation I'll apply rear brake... which very well might result in a longer stop than the automatic system would have provided. Not sure what to think about this...

 

And before anyone smugly assumes that I simply need more practice and that no linked system could ever beat their time-honed skills... well, BTDT... ride one of the bikes equipped with this system for a while before making that statement...

[Whip]

I feel lucky.....and sometimes I'm blind.

 

[Albert]

I feel lucky.....and sometimes I'm blind.

 

 

 

A skillful answer to be sure.

[BanjoBoy]

I have been involved in a, shall we say, "spirited" conversation on the F800 board concerning the use of ABS as a braking strategy.

 

I ask for your input on this topic as there have been some good pieces of information presented and I think we can all learn from it. I also believe that there has been some bad information posted. Again, I feel we can all learn from it.

 

Here is the post.

 

We had a member post earlier concerning his use of ABS - HERE - and feel that this topic warrants study in the 'Ride Well' forum.

 

I look forward to this think tank's input.

I have whizzy ABS brakes and think they are the worst thing about this R1200ST. Who ever came up with this $hit should be shot!!!

I wish BMW made an bike "R" bike with good conventional forks, and no ABS. (That seems to be the best thing about the F bikes, you can get 'em without ABS)

This crap is like a technology dog chasing his tail. first they have this Tele-lever front end which gives you little feedback, (and has to much un-sprung weight.) now since you have little feedback, you can't modulate your brakes, so your front tire is at the limit of adhesion, so they have to give us this ABS crap. It should be an option for those of limited riding skills.

I can't do stoppies 'cuz when the rear comes up, the brakes shut off! If I'm on a dirt road (Or sometimes on the street ) I can't back the rear end in. I'm more like a passenger than the rider on this thing.

Not to mention the reliability and TCO issues created by a system way more complicated than it needs to be.

Hate the ABS!!! (Aren't you glad you asked?)

[TedG]

Russell and everyone else, thank you for your posts. In my relatively short time as a member, this is the most useful ABS thread (for me at least) I've seen. I firmly believe that concentration/focus is the critical element in safe riding; obviously skills have to be developed and maintained, but they can't be utilized if my mind is elsewhere.

 

The only time I put myself in the hospital motorcycling happened because I wasn't properly focused and I reacted instinctively (survival instinct or whatever you want to call it) instead of the way I've been trained and practice. I was on a non-ABS bike at the time, but ABS would not have made a bit of difference. Simply put, I got stupid and paid for it.

[CoarsegoldKid]

Gee, Andy, don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel.

As for me. I just ride the bike. It's either all 2nd nature, or it's blind luck, or I ride too conservatively or I'm fooling myself, or I haven't been in emergency braking situations, or your emergency braking situation is my normal one, or I'm just a slow old fart on a modern motorcycle that can't tell the difference, or it's all those things. I've never noticed or engaged ABS technology. So it maybe be skill that's stopping the bike. I didn't buy the bike because it had ABS, I bring the ABS along cause BMW thought it was a good idea. I don't see what all the fuss is about!

[russell_bynum]

Since the title of the thread mentions 'skill vs. technology' I'll note something about the K1200GT I just bought that I'm not sure what to think about...

 

The partially-integrated braking system automatically applies rear brake (dynamically based on front brake application force, decelleration rate, etc.) and it works pretty well, in fact disconcertingly well (meaning it's kind of humiliating in that I thought 30+ years of riding would have taught me how to use a rear brake more effectively than a computer.) Another nice thing about the system is that the rider can disable it at will by pressing on the rear brake lever, in which case the system will override the linked system and use the rider's input instead. But in spite of the fact that the system often provides a faster stop in automatic vs. manual mode I find myself operating the rear brake manually out of habit... after having used a rear brake for my entire riding career it's a hard habit to break. As a result I know that in an emergency situation I'll apply rear brake... which very well might result in a longer stop than the automatic system would have provided. Not sure what to think about this...

 

And before anyone smugly assumes that I simply need more practice and that no linked system could ever beat their time-honed skills... well, BTDT... ride one of the bikes equipped with this system for a while before making that statement...

 

LOL...that's an interesting problem.

 

Getting the most from the rear brake is probably the most difficult part of braking well. On a bike like my Tuono, it's not such a big deal since the rear brake really doesn't do much anyway (when it works...which is rare). On a long wheelbase bike like the GT, that's a different story.

 

How much of a difference does it make on your GT letting the computer handle it vs doing it yourself?

[russell_bynum]

I have been involved in a, shall we say, "spirited" conversation on the F800 board concerning the use of ABS as a braking strategy.

 

I ask for your input on this topic as there have been some good pieces of information presented and I think we can all learn from it. I also believe that there has been some bad information posted. Again, I feel we can all learn from it.

 

Here is the post.

 

We had a member post earlier concerning his use of ABS - HERE - and feel that this topic warrants study in the 'Ride Well' forum.

 

I look forward to this think tank's input.

I have whizzy ABS brakes and think they are the worst thing about this R1200ST. Who ever came up with this $hit should be shot!!!

I wish BMW made an bike "R" bike with good conventional forks, and no ABS. (That seems to be the best thing about the F bikes, you can get 'em without ABS)

This crap is like a technology dog chasing his tail. first they have this Tele-lever front end which gives you little feedback, (and has to much un-sprung weight.) now since you have little feedback, you can't modulate your brakes, so your front tire is at the limit of adhesion, so they have to give us this ABS crap. It should be an option for those of limited riding skills.

I can't do stoppies 'cuz when the rear comes up, the brakes shut off! If I'm on a dirt road (Or sometimes on the street ) I can't back the rear end in. I'm more like a passenger than the rider on this thing.

Not to mention the reliability and TCO issues created by a system way more complicated than it needs to be.

Hate the ABS!!! (Aren't you glad you asked?)

 

I have a love-hate with the telelever. It does a great job keeping the suspension working under hard braking without requiring overly stiff springs and compression damping. But the complete lack of feedback is disconcerting, especially after riding bikes like the Tuono where I could run over a quarter in the street and tell you what year it was just from the feedback in the bars.

 

As for backing the rear end in...I don't know about the current generation of ABS, but you could definitely do that with ABS-II on my R1100RT. The key was braking hard enough with the front that the rear was unweighted. Then just stand on the rear brake pedal. Rear ABS engages, but the combination of not much weight on the rear, and the drag from the rear brake would get the rear end slithering around. Bar input could direct it to one side or the other.

 

I dunno about stoppies...I never tried that.

 

Realistically, though, it's hard to argue that the inability to back it in and do stoppies is a bad thing since we're talking about touring and sport touring bikes.

[jaytee]

I have to admit that I will likely never own another street bike without ABS.

 

Look, I can not control what the road conditions are, what crap is on the road, what someone does in front of me, etc... The street is NOT a track. While I agree with Russell that training matters, The reality is that I have no clue what frame of mind I will be in when a panic braking sistuation occurs. Will I be distracted? Feeling under the weather? Upset? Dazed? Who knows. But with ABS, I know that no matter how poorly I execute my braking skills I will always have a predictable braking experience for a given road surface.

 

That said, the ABS has, on occasion made my stopping distances seem a little longer than I thought they would have been without it. But the margin of safety they provide lets me brake more agressively (as I am not afraid of sliding the front) and learning the limits of this bike.

 

I am completely sold.

 

JT

[smiller]

How much of a difference does it make on your GT letting the computer handle it vs doing it yourself?

If I'm really concentrating not much, but in casual use quite a bit. The most noticeable difference is just before and as you come to a stop, the integrated system seems to know to how to modulate the rear brake pretty effectively during that critical phase when under manual operation it's easy to either underbrake in anticipation of locking or overbrake and risk locking. Again, certainly not impossible to equal it manually (at least on a dry road surface) with practice, but it is temptingly easy to rely on and that's the part I'm uneasy about. If it didn't work so well it would be easy to dismiss it as a toy, but it does and if it represents the future of computer-assisted braking (along with systems like the Honda) then it's going to get interesting for us old school folks.

[SweetP]

Gee, Andy, don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel.

As for me. I just ride the bike. It's either all 2nd nature, or it's blind luck, or I ride too conservatively or I'm fooling myself, or I haven't been in emergency braking situations, or your emergency braking situation is my normal one, or I'm just a slow old fart on a modern motorcycle that can't tell the difference, or it's all those things. I've never noticed or engaged ABS technology. So it maybe be skill that's stopping the bike. I didn't buy the bike because it had ABS, I bring the ABS along cause BMW thought it was a good idea. I don't see what all the fuss is about!

 

[Whip]

Hey Phil

 

They sure love callin you names over there. I bet your not invited to the Christmas Party.

 

[Francois_Dumas]

Gee, Andy, don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel.

As for me. I just ride the bike. It's either all 2nd nature, or it's blind luck, or I ride too conservatively or I'm fooling myself, or I haven't been in emergency braking situations, or your emergency braking situation is my normal one, or I'm just a slow old fart on a modern motorcycle that can't tell the difference, or it's all those things. I've never noticed or engaged ABS technology. So it maybe be skill that's stopping the bike. I didn't buy the bike because it had ABS, I bring the ABS along cause BMW thought it was a good idea. I don't see what all the fuss is about!

 

 

Me like !!

[lvnvbiker]

Smiler, I know how you feel. On my rt I can feel the rear brake peg drop out from under my foot sometimes underhard braking, when I felt I had given it enough. And most of us are not riding on the track so "backing it in" while fun may not be a neccesity.

I just got a picture in my head of guy guy backing it in on his RT with his with bashing in the side of his helmet with her camera.

[russell_bynum]

I just got a picture in my head of guy guy backing it in on his RT with his with bashing in the side of his helmet with her camera.

 

[Huzband]

I just got a picture in my head of guy guy backing it in on his RT with his with bashing in the side of his helmet with her camera.

 

 

I kept trying to back in the RT at Jennings last year, with no success.

 

Maybe I need that slipper clutch.

[motorman587]

I would also like to add that ABS helps when you ride over different types of surfaces. Each surface has different types of coefficient-friction and while you are threshold braking there is no way you can realize what surface type you are on, in a panic/emergency stop, lower coefficient-friction need less braking pressure. Sorry nobody is that good. Sure on a race track you are on a safe road condition and would not want ABS, but in the real world you do. Just think the white arrows on the road way or the white stop bars. How slick they get when wet. I've seen the best motor cops lock up brakes and they train once a month. A no brainer.

[Fubar]

My last (first) bike had no ABS. If it had, I might not have had such an intimate encounter with that tree. Of course, over-riding my abilities put me into that spot in the first place. A few repairs, a few adjustments, some more seat time prevented THAT from happening again. But I live in Florida, sand is everywhere, oil and rain everywhere else. I cannot be 100% all the time. 25 years of riding have taught me that.

When it came time to buy bike #2, ABS was a consideration, albeit a lesser one. My bro-in-law wanted my to get a Goldwing with ABS on one end. No. Six months on the RT so far and no need for it, yet. But it'll happen. With all the Q-tips, nearly-deads, and tourists added to the brain-dead locals, multiplied by instantaneous torrential downpours, asphalt that degrades faster than the road paint and oil-soaked intersections, I'll be damned glad I have it when the time comes.

But is it skill or luck or a crutch? If you ride harder/faster depending on ABS to save your bacon, it's a crutch and you're an idiot. If you think ABS is the latest incarnation of Vishnu and will "magically" activate and keep you out of that ditch or semi grill, see you in the afterlife. IMO, it, like riding in the first place, is a skill that requires some information and some experience. Learn how it works, ride within your skill set and don't be stupid. Then, if you need to grab a fistful you can do so with at least a modicum of confidence about what will happen and a somewhat larger belief that you will survive the next few seconds (clean underwear not included).

 

 

2009 R1200RT

[BanjoBoy]

I have been involved in a, shall we say, "spirited" conversation on the F800 board concerning the use of ABS as a braking strategy.

 

I ask for your input on this topic as there have been some good pieces of information presented and I think we can all learn from it. I also believe that there has been some bad information posted. Again, I feel we can all learn from it.

 

Here is the post.

 

We had a member post earlier concerning his use of ABS - HERE - and feel that this topic warrants study in the 'Ride Well' forum.

 

I look forward to this think tank's input.

I have whizzy ABS brakes and think they are the worst thing about this R1200ST. Who ever came up with this $hit should be shot!!!

I wish BMW made an bike "R" bike with good conventional forks, and no ABS. (That seems to be the best thing about the F bikes, you can get 'em without ABS)

This crap is like a technology dog chasing his tail. first they have this Tele-lever front end which gives you little feedback, (and has to much un-sprung weight.) now since you have little feedback, you can't modulate your brakes, so your front tire is at the limit of adhesion, so they have to give us this ABS crap. It should be an option for those of limited riding skills.

I can't do stoppies 'cuz when the rear comes up, the brakes shut off! If I'm on a dirt road (Or sometimes on the street ) I can't back the rear end in. I'm more like a passenger than the rider on this thing.

Not to mention the reliability and TCO issues created by a system way more complicated than it needs to be.

Hate the ABS!!! (Aren't you glad you asked?)

 

I have a love-hate with the telelever. It does a great job keeping the suspension working under hard braking without requiring overly stiff springs and compression damping. But the complete lack of feedback is disconcerting, especially after riding bikes like the Tuono where I could run over a quarter in the street and tell you what year it was just from the feedback in the bars.

 

As for backing the rear end in...I don't know about the current generation of ABS, but you could definitely do that with ABS-II on my R1100RT. The key was braking hard enough with the front that the rear was unweighted. Then just stand on the rear brake pedal. Rear ABS engages, but the combination of not much weight on the rear, and the drag from the rear brake would get the rear end slithering around. Bar input could direct it to one side or the other.

 

I dunno about stoppies...I never tried that.

 

Realistically, though, it's hard to argue that the inability to back it in and do stoppies is a bad thing since we're talking about touring and sport touring bikes.

I guess this is why I'm such a little whiner, I want a bike that does it all!

I tour, sport tour, sport ride, do fire roads, and with a proper front end w/ proper brakes this would be the perfect bike for me. (Like your Tuono or most any other modern liter bike)

When I say "stoppies" I'm not talking about 12 o'clockers like the stunters do. But sometimes while braking hard the rear gets light, and if I hit a bump, it bounces up, then locks, which in turn releases the brakes. (I've whined about this in another thread here)

I don't need to back it in on the street, but that is a very useful tool while riding fire roads.

Ask yourself this Russell, would you rather have the Tuono front end & brakes on your RT, or keep it how it is?

 

[BanjoBoy]

Gee, Andy, don't hold back. Tell us how you really feel.

As for me. I just ride the bike. It's either all 2nd nature, or it's blind luck, or I ride too conservatively or I'm fooling myself, or I haven't been in emergency braking situations, or your emergency braking situation is my normal one, or I'm just a slow old fart on a modern motorcycle that can't tell the difference, or it's all those things. I've never noticed or engaged ABS technology. So it maybe be skill that's stopping the bike. I didn't buy the bike because it had ABS, I bring the ABS along cause BMW thought it was a good idea. I don't see what all the fuss is about!

Well I guess what Phil was getting at originally, is that there’s a lot more to riding than braking. (I dunno, maybe I’m interpreting it wrong?) Being able to stop fast can be a good thing, but in the grand scheme of riding, it’s actually a small part of the safety equation. Situational awareness is far more important. Being able to see the problems before you need “threshold braking” is the safest way to ride.

 

As mentioned above, riding on the street there are many situations where stopping distance is increased by a lack of traction; i.e. gravel, water, paint lines …. If you’ve rid’ in awhile without engaging the ABS (Joe) that’s a good thing. (Mine engages every time I hit a bump while braking?) But if I had my way, I’d trade the whizz, ABS, and Tele-Lever for a conventional front end in a minute. I just love everything else about this bike.

I prefer feedback from my front tire, and brakes that are consistent, and easy to maintain. (like the rest of the bike.)

As for dresda on the F800 forum, if what she says is accurate the ABS might have helped her. (I also know some people like to embellish in their writings) If that’s the case though, it’s a real fine line where stopping (Or slowing in her case) is the key to missing a deer strike.

Even though hitting deer and pigs is my biggest concern while ripping the back roads, there are things I can do to miss a deer/pigs before I even see it. Often you can see deer/pigs trails where there’s high deer/pigs crossing activity. While riding one must be aware of deer/pigs on the sides of the road, not just focus on your line on the street.

There are a lot of pro-active things a rider can do, but in the end luck has a big part too. On several occasions I’ve witnessed suicide deer run into the side of passing vehicles. In dresda’s case if the deer had jumped out a split second sooner or later we would not be having this discussion.

 

Have a great day!

[dhanson]

Great thread, and great post on link concerning panic actions. I had reflex panic yesterday, left turn lane about to turn left between oncoming traffic, car on street I am turning into decides to come out during the mini break in traffic also. Just as I am finishing my braking for turnin, I catch him out of the corner of my eye accelerating out. I grab the brakes which I still had my hand on, rear locked, I pulsed off pedal but held firm on front, the car stopped also, neither one of us willing to enter in front of the other, I give him a head nod to go go go, he gets, I turn, problem over.

 

I had just read this thread the day before, ha. I didn't even know I had my foot on the brake, but I did lock it.

 

Had a deer (doe) cross on me from 2 lane FM lane in Blanco, Tx., just 2 weeks ago. Woods right up to edge of curve on both sides, I was running 60ish, she was late, I could have put my hand on her forehead as I passed just in front of her. That happened so fast, only the timing saved me, if she would have been 1 second early, messed up Tiger maybe.

 

If I bought another Tiger, I would try and get ABS as I hear good reports. I just sold 07 K1200GT and agree with Smiler, as long as you left the rear brake alone, it was super, just do not hit the rear brake when in critical moments.