Another day in HID paradise.....

[Huzband]

What started out as a simple plug-n-play install turned into a FRIGGIN' fiasco. It turns out the 12RT can't handle the voltage of the dual low beam HID's, so a quick call to the distributor got me a relay harness in just two days. Not so fast, the relay harness he sent me is designed for a car, not a bike. I would have to cut & splice it in at least three places to make it work, as well as cut an additional hole behind the headlight for an extra wire. This after cutting holes in the bulb covers for the first harness.

 

To add insult to injury, I had decided to keep the high beam kit, so at least I'd have HID there. Double-checked it before putting the bike back together, & it worked fine. Checked again after, still worked fine. About to pull out for work this morning I have the bulb icon on the display &...you guessed it... IT DOESN'T WORK!!!

 

So now I get to pull the dash apart just to get the junk out of there. Needless to say I'm quite

 

Oh, & the fuel sensor went out this morning. AGAIN!

[Boffin]

The problem will not be voltage, it will be current - probably too low current as, except at startup, HIDs draw about 3 amps each compared to 5 amps for the stock lamps. The same will apply to the main-beam units. To fool the canbus into thinking the load is correct either connect a resistor in parallel to the HID ballst (a 50 Watt 0.5 ohm should do it) or connect two 21 watt marker lights in to the supply.

 

Andy

[smiller]

Or perhaps the problem is simply an electrical system that's too smart for its own good...

[tallman]

What type?

[Firefight911]

Or perhaps the problem is simply an electrical system that's too smart for its own good...

 

Pssst, did you see who posted this? It's most likely not the bike at all! I'm just sayin'!

[Fugu]

Or perhaps the problem is simply an electrical system that's too smart for its own good...

 

So when it thinks the bulb is gone due to the lower current draw of HID it shuts off the power? cripes.

[SageRider]

Or perhaps the problem is simply an electrical system that's too smart for its own good...

 

So when it thinks the bulb is gone due to the lower current draw of HID it shuts off the power? cripes.

If it is shutting power to the bulb off, then the system must think it is shorted and not open.

[smiller]

If it is shutting power to the bulb off, then the system must think it is shorted and not open.

That's true. It could be that the startup current of the HID is momentarily high enough that the ZFE module thinks that there is a short. If this happens the circuit will be shut down until the next power cycle, and of course when the HID restarts the problem will repeat. If you know someone with a code reader they should be able to verify if this is what's happening as that kind of fault should throw a code. You could also try connecting a 35-watt incandescent bulb and see if the same thing happens, that would indicate whether the problem is too little current being drawn or too much.

[Huzband]

Here's a short synopsis of how it went.

 

One or the other low beam connected, no problem. Both connected, left came on, but not to full temp, & right would flash a start-up, then go out.

 

I don't get the high beam. It worked fine till I got it buttoned up. Re-checked connections & found nothing loose.

 

Tim, I got the kit here.

 

Phil, your day's comin', buddy.

 

 

[FLTRI]

Hmmm, that's the same kit I was looking at. Any help from customer service?

[Huzband]

I get the impression that David is shipping/receiving, tech support, & customer service.

 

I left him a rather heated message last night, & will talk to him tomorrow before I send it all back, just to be sure there won't be any problems with credit.

 

He seems like a good guy, so now that I've cooled off I'll be nicer. I don't expect there to be a problem with the return.

 

Edit; I replaced the high beam kit tonight with a 110 watt get outa my way PIAA bulb.

[Matts_12GS]

And you had the gall to bust on me about your bike not working....

 

Danny, sorry you cut holes in the bulb covers, etc, but dang man, always, always always connect stuff like that in the open so you can make sure it works before modifying the hard parts.

[OoPEZoO]

For being such a swell guy Danny, you sure take a lot of crap from everybody

 

Ahh.....with friends like these. Hope you get it all sorted out.

 

I'm having my own CANBUS issues with my Jeep right now. Who would ever think of adding extra lights to a vehicle like a Jeep Wrangler . No wonder Chrysler is belly up and selling out to the Frenchies

[Huzband]

And you had the gall to bust on me about your bike not working....

 

Danny, sorry you cut holes in the bulb covers, etc, but dang man, always, always always connect stuff like that in the open so you can make sure it works before modifying the hard parts.

 

Well, I had to blame somebody, & you were right there....

 

Yeah, you're right about checking stuff before cutting. I know better than that.

 

For being such a swell guy Danny, you sure take a lot of crap from everybody.

 

Thanks, Keith. I'm glad somebody around here appreciates me. I think.

[Wooster]

No wonder Chrysler is belly up and selling out to the Frenchies

 

Au countraire mon frere, FIAT isn't "fix it again tartuffe"; rather it's tony doing the fixing.

 

Wooster

 

Melons insist on church wedding; they cantalope

[OoPEZoO]

No wonder Chrysler is belly up and selling out to the Frenchies

 

Au countraire mon frere, FIAT isn't "fix it again tartuffe"; rather it's tony doing the fixing.

 

Wooster

 

Melons insist on church wedding; they cantalope

 

Your right.....momentary brain fart. I was thinking peugeot for some reason.

[Ken H.]

If it is shutting power to the bulb off, then the system must think it is shorted and not open.

That's true. It could be that the startup current of the HID is momentarily high enough that the ZFE module thinks that there is a short.

If the Danny / the installer is correctly relaying the HID kit, the ZFE module will never see the current drain of the HID themselves’ start up, only that of the relay.

 

And yes, the ZFE shuts down the circuit if the current is too high OR too low. All it knows is the current is now not within the manufactures acceptable range, therefore there is a fault and the prudent thing to do is to shut down the circuit.

 

The fact that this is caused by someone’s decision to aftermarket modify the bike’s design is hardly the manufacture’s fault.

 

Now all that being said, as has been discussed many times before here, the easy answer is to simulate the original current drain across the original load (be it headlights, tail lights, brake lights, horn, whatever), and the ZFE module will be happy.

 

[SageRider]

ZFE shuts down the circuit if the current is too high OR too low

Ken,

What are you basing your statement on?

Does this apply only to the headlights?

This is not the behavior seen when tail/brake lights are considered open.

 

[Huzband]

Just off the phone with David explaining the issue, & he's sending me three 50 watt resistors at no charge.

 

The lingering question with me is, will I need the relay, or will the resistors do it?

[Ken H.]

ZFE shuts down the circuit if the current is too high OR too low

Ken,

What are you basing your statement on?

Only on experience with tricking the ZFE in the past. I have a big mammoth variable resistor from days gone by that I usually use to find the ‘magic’ value needed for any particular circuit to load it properly. I then watch the current and voltage level as I search for the correct value. I have seen the ZFE shut down both a circuit over and under current.

 

The situation with the early versions of the ZFE software on the horn circuit is an example. If you replaced the horn with an aftermarket one, relayed off the original circuit (OEM horn removed) often the ZFE would sound the new horn for only a second then shut the circuit down due to too little current draw. The solution was to load the circuit back up a bit to raise the current drain, thus fooling the ZFE into keeping the horn circuit/leads powered.

 

Now of course there are a lot of different versions of the ZFE software out there (I think we are up to version 11 or something like that) so likely different versions on different circuits are indeed going to behave different. It just takes some experimentin’ from one bike to the next.

 

[tallman]

Just off the phone with David explaining the issue, & he's sending me three 50 watt resistors at no charge.

 

The lingering question with me is, will I need the relay, or will the resistors do it?

 

You won't, bike will, probably.

Hope you sort it out and let the rest of us know what to do.

PS.

Keith is just angling for a chance to ride your 1200 so he can convince you know who they need one.

[Fugu]

Edit; I replaced the high beam kit tonight with a 110 watt get outa my way PIAA bulb.

 

Wiring harness meltdown in 3... 2....

[Huzband]

Edit; I replaced the high beam kit tonight with a 110 watt get outa my way PIAA bulb.

 

Wiring harness meltdown in 3... 2....

 

Nope. PIAA bulb puts out 110 watts, but still only draws 55. No extra load on the wiring.

 

Tim, David is as anxious for me to figure this out as I am, so he'll know how to handle CanBus bikes as well as he does cars. Once I've got it, I'll post a full report, probably separate from this thread.

 

Now that you mention it, I still owe Keith a ride on the RT from BRR. You're probably right about the sucking up.

[Fugu]

Nope. PIAA bulb puts out 110 watts, but still only draws 55. No extra load on the wiring.

 

Ahhh. The PIAA "free lunch" bulbs... Gotta love their marketing folks.

[Huzband]

Okay, I'll admit that I don't have a way to confirm the claim on the package, BUT, I do know that it's considerably brighter than the Silverstar it replaced.

[Don_Eilenberger]

Nope. PIAA bulb puts out 110 watts, but still only draws 55. No extra load on the wiring.

Gotta fix that..

 

"PIAA claims the bulb puts out 110 watts, but still only draws 55."

 

Actually - independent tests (done by moi for the BMW Car Club magazine Roundel) - show that PIAA is another word for "MARKETING".. there are several euro only bulbs that do put out more light, at the expensive of a shorter lifetime (www.powerbulbs.com in the UK is a good vendor of them..) I guess if you like the blue look to your lights the PIAA bulbs will be nice.

[Don_Eilenberger]

Okay, I'll admit that I don't have a way to confirm the claim on the package, BUT, I do know that it's considerably brighter than the Silverstar it replaced.

Most new bulbs will be brighter than a used bulb. Bulbs do fade with age.. really..

[Huzband]

I guess if you like the blue look to your lights the PIAA bulbs will be nice.

 

This one's a bright white. I made sure to NOT get a blue bulb. I ain't pimpin'.

[OoPEZoO]

Nope. PIAA bulb puts out 110 watts, but still only draws 55. No extra load on the wiring.

Gotta fix that..

 

"PIAA claims the bulb puts out 110 watts, but still only draws 55."

 

Yeah, that marketing BS is funny. Power = Voltage X Current.......no ifs, ands, or buts. What they should say is that their new and improved 55W bulbs put out more useable light (Lumens I believe) than their previously made crappy 55W bulbs. BUT, they still want to sell those crappy 55W bulbs to people so they can't call them crappy.

 

And yes Danny, you do still owe me a ride on the 1200RT. I am resisting it though. I keep telling myself I am happy with what I have. My checkbook can not handle having that false reality shattered right now. Maybe next year.

[Fugu]

Okay, I'll admit that I don't have a way to confirm the claim on the package, BUT, I do know that it's considerably brighter than the Silverstar it replaced.

 

Yeah, I know. Just piling on for fun.

[Ken H.]

Nope. PIAA bulb puts out 110 watts, but still only draws 55. No extra load on the wiring.

Hey I want some of those for my house! Cut my lighting bill in half!

 

Physics, who needs it?

 

Let’s see, if I take one of those bulbs, shine it on a photo cell, use the photo cell to generate the electricity to light the bulb, because the bulb puts out twice the watts it uses, I should then be able to use the excess to power something else…. Hummm... Free electricity! I like it! Those PIAA people are geniuses!

 

/sarcasm

 

Never fails to amaze what companies will say to sell a product.

 

[smiller]

Ease up guys, clearly they are trying to say that the bulb has the equivalent light output of a conventional bulb drawing twice the current (or so they claim), not that they have broken some physics barrier. They are just assuming that the average consumer probably understands the term watts more than something like lumens... IOW typical marketing dept. crap. It's true that such antics just make them look foolish to anyone who does understand what's going on, but let's face it... that's probably 5% of purchasers.

[Huzband]

... IOW typical marketing dept. crap. It's true that such antics just make them look foolish to anyone who does understand what's going on, but let's face it... that's probably 5% of purchasers.

 

Okay, so I'm a 95 percenter. Ban me.

 

Trying to get this HID train back on track, will I need to use a relay in addition to the resistors, or not?

[OoPEZoO]

Oh, you mean we were trying to solve a problem

 

Yes, you will need the resistors and the relay. here is the breakdown

 

Your CANBUS wants a certain current draw from the headlights to be happy.

You install the original wiring to activate the relay.

The relay then fires the HID

This upsets the CANBUS because the activated relay does not pull the same wattage as your original headlights

The resistor either has to go in series with the relay activation terminal, or from the activation terminal to ground (depending on how they choose to solve the problem)

 

I can't tell you which way to wire it up without knowing some more details first. Its time for dinner, but I'll come back later and read up. If no one else chimes in, I can get you steered in the right direction.

[OoPEZoO]

OK.....back from dinner......MMMmmmmm pork loin and baked potatoes washed down with beer.

 

To make this as easy as possible.

 

1. What are the value of the resistors that David sent you? I need to know the Ohm value, not the wattage.

2. How many relays are in the harness and do they have a part number on them?

 

A picture of the harness would help, but not 100% necessary.

 

If you can answer those few questions, I could draw you up a neat little color coded/numbered schematic for ya.

[Huzband]

Pork loin & baked taters...mmmmmmmmmm. And here I'm stuck with left over Lasagna. Laura Lee's working late.

 

Anyway, here's the relay harness he sent me. Only one relay in the harness. Do I need a relay for each HID? Honestly, I think I'd be better off making my own, as I'd have to hack this one up to make it fit the bike. But I'll make that decision later.

 

 

Here's a link to the resistors.

 

Thanks for the help, Keith.

[Tapatio]

or you can purchase pre-made CANBUS warning cancellers.

 

EBAY CANBUS CANCEL HARNESS

 

The HID kit I purchased on Ebay was advertised "CANBUS" compatible. Never had any problems with it, very happy with the upgrade.

 

For example...

 

HID CANBUS compatible

[Huzband]

That cancel harness may just be the ticket.

[OoPEZoO]

To make a long story short.......The resistor should go between the "remote turn on" wire and "ground". But just to make it fun, here is the possible issue. I'm guessing that (since you can get one light to turn on without the other) BMW has wired the front low beams separately into the CANBUS. Notice the *

 

*only one OEM headlight plug activates the relay

 

In a car. That relay harness is designed so one factory headlight wire will activate the relay. The relay then turns on BOTH of the HID headlights. This would leave one of the original headlight wires disconnected.

 

I'm guessing BMW wouldn't allow that........Here comes the speech. If it was me, here is what I would do.

 

 

The only question marks would be the 6 Ohm resistors. I don't know the acceptable window of operation BMW has decided to use for their CANBUS, but 6 Ohms would give you approx 24-35 Watts on the circuit depending on normal voltage swing. That might have to be adjusted to a lower resistance.

[Huzband]

 

Thanks, Rembrant. That cancel harness on ebay is looking better all the time.

[OoPEZoO]

AND.......one more detail I might have screwed up on. I went from the 86 relay terminal, to the resistor, to ground. It should go from the 86 relay terminal, to the resistor, to the negative side of the factory low beam connector.

 

Electrically, it shouldn't make a damn bit of difference........but I don't know 100% how BMW wired them up, and I can't verify anything without a 1200RT sitting here.

[Huzband]

Ya know, it just so happens I'll be at the dealer tomorrow to have the fuel sensor replaced. I'll ask Mark (service manager) about this. He's a straight-up guy, I'm sure he can shed some light :grin:on this issue. Especially since I hand out gift cards for a nice joint up the street.

[OoPEZoO]

If not......I could use an all expense paid vacation to Florida in order to fix it for ya

 

"Will harness electrons for beer"

[StuGotz]

Rembrant:

 

Why (2) relays?

 

Just askin'

 

Send me some pork loin please. I's hungry.

 

MB>

 

 

 

[Huzband]

Tell ya what. I'll come to the wedding, & you can fix it there.

 

Before the bachelor party, if you please.

[OoPEZoO]

Rembrant:

 

Why (2) relays?

 

Just askin'

 

I meant that as a definite 100% solution, not the most efficient. It may be able to be done with a single relay, but I don't know the exact wiring or the CANBUS setup of a 1200RT. Once again, without a guinea pig bike here for me to play with, I can't give the best solution.

 

It all comes down to if they wired the 2 low beam headlight circuits separately or together into the CANBUS. My guess is they are wired separately. In this case, you have to have 2 coils, 2 resistors, and 2 relay switches. They make relays with 2 sets of coils/switches built in, but for simplicity I thought this was a better way to draw it out.

 

Edit....Bachelor party is in Toronto over Labor Day weekend if you wanna get in trouble

[Huzband]

...without a guinea pig bike here for me to play with...

 

Uh uhh! I ain't playin' that game.

 

Bachelor party is in Toronto over Labor Day weekend if you wanna get in trouble

 

That one either.

 

Is not being allowed back in the country your out? Just askin'.

[OoPEZoO]

Is not being allowed back in the country your out? Just askin'.

 

I didn't say a thing

[Huzband]

Is not being allowed back in the country your out? Just askin'.

 

I didn't say a thing

 

[Ken H.]

I just looked, on the R1200RT the low beam bulbs are wired in parallel. I.e., they are a single circuit from the ZFE module.