R1200RT Brake Problem

[DMiddleton]

Ref. problems with brakes on R1200RT. My own such model has now been back at the dealers for over a month, after four occasions on which I set off to find only residual braking, twice in car parks, once on my drive and once approaching a T junction. After twice recovering it to the dealer, they, after a fortnight, found how to reproduce the problem, by starting the engine with a brake applied. This fools or upsets the system and allows one to set off with the grossly inadequate residual braking. I was then informed that this is how BMW designed the system, therefore its O.K. BMW GB. refuse to take any action, though I beseached them to recall all bikes with this system. British Trading Standards are unequal to this problem. Meanwhile I`ve no bike, and request all advice on the matter.

[David]

I'm not sure what the question is, really. Why not just work within the design of the braking system on this particular issue? If on a hill, for instance:

 

Turn key on.

Let bike go through diagnostic check.

Engage brake.

Disengage clutch.

Start engine.

Enjoy life.

 

If there's something else wrong with your bike, then I don't have an answer to that (see this forum for similar threads), but if all you need to do is adapt, go for it!

[steveknapp]

Engage brake.

Disengage clutch.

Start engine.

 

Starting the engine might cause a voltage drop large enough to make the brake controller reset, and need to redo it's self test.

 

If the brakes are applied, it will wait until you release them to run the test. Or that's what it's supposed to do.

[David]

If it does that, though, I don't think it trips a fault, right? At any rate, the method above is the only practical way to start the bike on a hill.

[Buccaneer]

BMW GB. refuse to take any action, though I beseached them to recall all bikes with this system.

 

Sheesh, that sounds a bit extreme.

 

It's simple: Don't start the bike with the brakes on. The ABS cannot complete its self-test when the brakes are engaed. Seems pretty obvious to me.

 

If you MUST start with the brakes engaged, the self test will happen as soon as you let them go.

[steveknapp]

First off, yes, we're entering this topic where things get all pissy about these brakes. One post, about the brakes. I don't think the poor chap knows the mess he may have gotten himself into.

 

If you MUST start with the brakes engaged, the self test will happen as soon as you let them go.

 

That to me seems to be the flaw here. It should. And it's not. Agreed, it's the only good way to start the bike on a hill, and I agree that it is supposed to re-test.

 

I'd be checking lever movement verifying that they return to the fully disengaged spot easily. Also that the switches disengage.

 

And I'd ponder the battery. This might be similar to the 1100RT where a weak battery would trip ABS faults due to low voltage during starting.

[PaulW42]

I can't understand why it took the dealer so long. The start up procedure is clearly explained in the manual and they should have explained it to you when you picked up the bike. Since it is just part of the documented start up procedure, I can't see BM recalling the last 4 years production!

 

However, I am concerned as to whether this is really the issue. The system should complete its checks once the brakes are released so I can understand why you experienced problems on your drive and in the car park but it seems unlikely at a T junction. You don't say whether you had any warning lights on during these episodes. Until you are certain that it is just a question of not touching the brakes when starting, monitor it closely. I had a similar problem on my GS after a partridge hit the handguard at speed and moved it so it was just touching the brake lever - obviously that won't be an issue on the RT but maybe something is interfering with the brake lever/pedal (a stone perhaps?).

 

The residual braking works OK but a) it comes as a surprise and b) it needs a LOT more pressure. You won't get Trading Standards or others to take action because the residual braking is actually well within their requirements - surprising as it seems to many including me!

 

The brake system is complex. Many think too complex. There are real issues out there though I believe relatively few in number. I hope your problem can be solved by not touching the brakes during start up and, if so, thats great.

 

Paul

[DMiddleton]

Thanks for all the response.

Two points to make; I was not informed by the dealer that such a situation could occur, and none of all the replies take into account the human factor - one can forget, be distracted, be in a hurry, and when setting off it is neccessary to be looking ahead and around one, not down at the console. Below is the letter sent to Trading Standards.

 

Sirs,

Find attached correspondence regarding my new BMW R1200RT motorcycle, which has now been back at the dealers for a month, ref. My complaint over defective brakes. I have refused to accept it back from them. See their letters attached.

Failure of the servo system to operate is now well documented, as attached sheets. The point is it is in no way foolproof or failsafe, even if one accepts (which I don’t) that a meticulous starting routine is necessary, it takes little thought to realise a moments inattention, distraction, hurry or just forgetfulness can lead to disaster. This is compounded by (as my letter) the fact that the “Brake Failure” light remains on even if “correct” (according to BMW) procedure is followed. When mounting the test bike, before purchase, the salesman said “just ignore that, (the Brake Failure light) it will go out when you set off”.

I feel this situation can only be fully grasped with one of these bikes in front of you, and offer my bike and myself, at Rainbow Motorcycles, for such tests.

This can be compared to the side stand problem which are now made failsafe on modern bikes, to prevent one riding off with the side stand down, I mention Thalidomide in my letter to remind us all that big names do make mistakes.

P.S. “Residual braking”, this is grossly inadequate with just my 12 stone on board. This bike could carry 30+ stone of people plus luggage.

[David_S]

So how do you like the bike other than not being able to figure out how to start it correctly or refusing to do so (or so it seems)?

[codinn]

This reminds me of one of those "separated at birth" identical twin stories...

[JayW]

<<I'm not sure what the question is, really. Why not just work within the design of the braking system on this particular issue? >>

 

I agree. When I picked up my R12RT, the dealer told me to not engage the brake while thumbing the starter. I have managed to avoid doing this for 2500 miles now, and have had no brake trouble at all. No big deal.

 

Jay

[codinn]

<<I'm not sure what the question is, really. Why not just work within the design of the braking system on this particular issue? >>

 

I agree. When I picked up my R12RT, the dealer told me to not engage the brake while thumbing the starter. I have managed to avoid doing this for 2500 miles now, and have had no brake trouble at all. No big deal.

 

Jay

 

Yeah, I would be never park my bike in a situation where I needed the gears to be engaged to keep it from rolling away. Therefore, I should be able to be in neutral while starting, and not need the brake on.

 

The only instance that occurs to me that I might need to have the brake on while starting is if the bike stalls at an uphill intersection when taking off. That has actually happened but since the bike was already running and had been through the start-up sequence no problem occurred: the bike just restarted without any of the "brake failure" readouts. I didn't turn off the key, there was no problem.

 

Seems like a non-issue to me.

[David]

Yeah, I would be never park my bike in a situation where I needed the gears to be engaged to keep it from rolling away.

 

Really? I do it all the time.

[Zakato]

It sounds to me like your dealer did not do a good job explaining things to you. Everything you list in your letter is explained in the owner's manual, or should have been part of the delivering the bike to you. The brake failure light flashing and then going off has been part of the RT system for a while. At this point, it sounds like the service guys worked you and themselves into a froth, and you are left having no confidence in the techs or the bike. That is a shame, because the R1200RT is an outstanding motorcycle.

 

When I picked up my RT, one of the first things the salesman told me was that starting the bike with the brakes depressed would cause the residual braking to kick in until the system re-sets itself. I thought about what would happen if I stalled on a hill, and realized, "who cares, I'll take off, pull over at the nearest safe place and turn off the bike, and restart if I had to".

 

I would love to know under what circumstance, the dealer is going to keep the bike and refund you the money. Good luck, and keep us posted.

[codinn]

Yeah, I would be never park my bike in a situation where I needed the gears to be engaged to keep it from rolling away.

 

Really? I do it all the time.

 

Oops, used the n-word. Ok, not trying to be a smart-aleck here. What I should say is that normally I try to find a spot to park where the bike is as stable as possible, and if on a slope, pointing uphill. If the bike must point downhill, I try not to park where the only thing keeping it from rolling forward off the sidestand is the engagement of the gears. Perhaps some are willing to park places where I would prefer not to (hence my use of the n-word).

 

That said, there are very few parking situations I find myself in where engagement of the brake while starting is necessary if the sidestand is deployed.

 

This may explain in part why I have not encountered the phenomenon described by the poster.

[David_S]

I don't bother looking for a great parking spot. If one's there I'll take it if not I'll take what's available. I just don't understand what the problem is for the original poster (who hasn't said anything lately) If your parked on an incline the bike should have been left in 1st gear when it was parked. get on the bike raise the side stand and turn on the key, wait for everything to cycle, pull in the clutch and the hand or foot brake (your choice) start the bike and drive off. I just went out to my bike and started this way and I still have power assist. I think the key is to leave the brakes un-applied until everything cycles. It's no big deal and it's not going to be changed (at least on current models) If someone doesn't have the ability or willingness to perform these few actions perhaps they should buy a different brand or quite riding all together.

[roadshadowww]

This issue came up for the 1st time this weekend when I was leaving a parking lot.

Boom, no power in the braking and brake failure flashing, I eased over to a flat area and allowed the system to re-set and Zing, I was back in action.

 

This bike is different, learn about it and enjoy.

 

My old Maico had to be "tickled" twice before it would ever start, everybody else's only took once...oh well...

[PaulW42]

I use a similar approach. Just switch the ignition on whilst putting gloves on and, hey presto, bike is ready to go at same time as me with brake spowered up. Get on and go.

 

Paul

[planepaul]

Oh, to be a fly on the wall during the engineer's "think tank" sessions......

"Can you see why any rider would be holding the hand brake while starting the machine? Me neither." (Try sitting on the bike in neutral, even on level ground, without having to hold the brake.)

This another example of BMW's disconnect with the real world. Why should a BMW hexhead rider have to adopt a procedure that no one else in motorcycling must?

That said, the diagnostics should complete as you ride off, even if the brake is held during startup. One common problem that arises is the failure of a brake light switch to disengage, which will default the brake system. If you look at the pedal's switch, you will see how little movement of the pedal it takes to close the switch. You will also see how marginal the return spring is (Do springs ever get stronger with time?). Also, the handguard on the GS can easily interfere with the lever, preventing the switch from opening. Caveat emptor, I guess.

In spite of my frustration with the corporate BMW arrogance, I love the RT.

Paul in CA

'05 R1200RT

'98 XR400R

Other vintage

[Joe_Rocket]

As an engineer... I find it somewhat annoying when people complain because they have to follow a procedure... it's UNSAFE because it doesn't work right if I hold my hand on the brake when I start it.

 

For crying out LOUD people... your lives are filled with procedures you follow.

 

Why in the WORLD would anyone complain to their government because they purchased something that doesn't work the way they want it to? This is the reason we have all of the IDIOT signs posted on everything these days:

 

CAUTION: Don't put your hand in the fan blades while the fan is running.

CAUTION: Coffee is hot and could hurt you if you pour it in your eye.

CAUTION: Don't drink Acid

CAUTION: Don't let your child play with this shaving razor.

 

And on and on and on.

 

Please Government... protect me from my inability to follow a procedure and take these awful evil motorcycles off of the market because they are DANGEROUS. If I have to take this bad bad bad evil wicked horrible motorcycle back... I'll just... well... I'll just... CRY!!!!

 

People who think following procedures are difficult should simply NOT be riding motorcycles. They should be driving cages or simply being pushed around in a baby carriage by their government.

 

The brakes are safe... the startup procedure is a mild annoyance; get over it.

 

Joe

[Buccaneer]

[Bob Palin]

Absolute nonsense. The braking system is the primary safety feature of a motor vehicle, it should not be able to be defeated (even partially) by a simple action like holding the brake while you are starting, basic good engineering practice should tell you that. If the braking system cannot work under those circumstances the engine should not start.

[steveknapp]

raise the side stand and turn on the key, wait for everything to cycle, pull in the clutch and the hand or foot brake (your choice) start the bike and drive off. I just went out to my bike and started this way and I still have power assist. I think the key is to leave the brakes un-applied until everything cycles.

 

There could be issues with a marginal battery.

 

The starter causes the voltage to drop, and many things either need to sustain or properly reset during that time. It was something of a PITA to support crank from an ECU standpoint, the voltage drop would be low enough to prevent the injectors and coils from firing but the ECU needed to sustain itself such that when the voltage came back up it was there to control all that was needed, in the middle of it's power up sequence. If memory serves, the specs for an ECU were in the 4-5V range. Very little else in the vehicle needed to operate that low, as this was only to get the vehicle started. Once started the other bits could come back online.

 

So it's possible that the brake controller would reset, and hence need to re-run it's power on self test.

 

I've not tried this on my GS, but I've done it many a time on the RT...starting while holding the brakes worked OK as long as you released the brake at some point AFTER starting. When the brake was released the system ran it's self test, all was good. IMHO that seems to be the defective part of this.

 

Oh, and far as "being and engineer" and all that, what to me seperates engineering from science is taking complex things and engineering them so normal people can/will use them. Daily driver vehicles with performance that exceed that of 20yr old race cars, THAT is progress.

 

And since we're making statments like "or should quit riding all together" maybe folks should quit posting if they can't read a post and give the writer the benefit of the doubt that maybe there IS a problem. Just because it's about these brakes doesn't imply it's automagically user error.

[Joe_Rocket]

So... based on your comment below, you should not be able to drive an automobile with the parking brake engaged, but rather, the engine should not start under the conditions of having the parking brake engaged?

 

How is this similar you may ask?

 

Forgetting to disengage the parking brake will cause damage to the braking system which will ultimately lead to brake failure and an accident. A parking brake is an integral part of a car's safety system.

 

Can you see the similarity? Where do you draw the line at stupidity?

 

Must we design a car that doesn't move with the parking brake on (or partially on)?

 

Must we design a motorcycle that is idiot proof?

 

Just as you learned (or hopefully learned) that you should not drive your car with the emergency brake engaged or partially engaged, you must also learn (on the R1200RT) not to hold the brake lever while you start the motorcycle OR if you do... braking will be compromised until YOU RELEASE THE LEVER LONG ENOUGH FOR THE ABS SYSTEM TO FINISH A SELF DIAGNOSTIC TEST.

 

Is this so utterly hard? Don't common motorcycle riders have enough intelligence to be able to remember something so simple?

 

For some IDIOT to cause the BMW brakes to fail because of this condition, they would have to hold the brake lever while they start, and then NEVER release it for longer than two seconds (or however long the ABS self test takes). How realistic is this? If someone is so STUPID that they will start the bike with the brake lever engaged and then drive with the brake lever partially engaged for the duration of a trip; then they should NOT be riding a motorcycle because they are flat stupid. Why not let Darwin's theory take over and allow them to pass into the next life? Let THEM suffer because of their stupidity... DO NOT make all other motorcycle riders suffer because of their stupidity by:

 

1. Making motorcycles idiot-proof (I like the freedom to be an idiot if I want).

2. Take the motorcycle off the market because it is "dangerous" (as our poster would have if he had his way)

 

No!

 

Give me my dangerous horrible motorcycle and let me kill myself on it if I want to. If I want something idiot-proof, I'll ride the bus.

 

And WHATEVER you do... don't try to convince your government to take MY freedoms away because you are not smart enough to teach yourself not to hold the brake when you start your motorcycle. I hold nothing but utter contempt for people who do such things.

 

Joe

 

Absolute nonsense. The braking system is the primary safety feature of a motor vehicle, it should not be able to be defeated (even partially) by a simple action like holding the brake while you are starting, basic good engineering practice should tell you that. If the braking system cannot work under those circumstances the engine should not start.

[planepaul]

For the headstrong engineers who are miffed at this discussion of hexhead brake issues-

Simply, the onboard diagnostic system's logic is flawed if a closed brake light switch alone will prevent proper brake function. Failed brake servo? Sure. Failed ABS circuitry? absolutely. Failed brake light switch? Get real.

Some years ago, engineers at Airbus Industries designed a flight control system logic for their aircraft that prevented well-trained and experienced pilots from performing real-world inputs into the aircraft. This resulted in at least 4 crashes with loss of life, including one at a French airshow witnessed by thousands.

Engineers who consider their work beyond reproach would serve society better by flipping burgers somewhere.

Paul in CA

'05 R1200RT

'98 XR400R

Other vintage

[Joe_Rocket]

Unfortunately, it is your understanding is flawed.

 

It isn't the brake light swich which causes the ABS test not to complete.

It is the application of pressure to the brake system (or if you will; hydraulic pressure) that stops the ABS system from measuring a correct quiescent pressure.

 

 

 

JW

 

For the headstrong engineers who are miffed at this discussion of hexhead brake issues-

Simply, the onboard diagnostic system's logic is flawed if a closed brake light switch alone will prevent proper brake function. Failed brake servo? Sure. Failed ABS circuitry? absolutely. Failed brake light switch? Get real.

Some years ago, engineers at Airbus Industries designed a flight control system logic for their aircraft that prevented well-trained and experienced pilots from performing real-world inputs into the aircraft. This resulted in at least 4 crashes with loss of life, including one at a French airshow witnessed by thousands.

Engineers who consider their work beyond reproach would serve society better by flipping burgers somewhere.

Paul in CA

'05 R1200RT

'98 XR400R

Other vintage

[ShovelStrokeEd]

JW,

For what its worth, I'm wit choo.

 

Owner's manual is quite clear on the subject.

I can see nothing wrong with the system as its designed in terms of start up sequence. I can see a problem if the system fails to restore itself after the brake is released if there is a battery issue. That doesn't in itself constitute a flaw in the system but rather a battery sizing issue IMHO.

 

Every attempt I have made at "idiot proofing" a design has always shown me that there is no end to the ingenuity of idiots.

[planepaul]

FYI, I helped a neighbor with an R12GS, whose brake light switch was stuck, leaving the bike with residual braking. I rode it like that, and I know the difference. Fixed the brake light switch, fixed the problem. The brake light switch alone prevented the self test from completing.

Paul in CA

'05 R1200RT

'98 XR400R

Other vintage

[John Bentall]

I'm with you both. What really irritates me is the number of questions that arise because the dealer has not done a proper handover of the machine to his new (and admittedly very excited) customer.

We've got people who don't know how to charge their batteries, how to operate their ESA, and those who don't know how important keep their hand/foot off the brake during the ABS self-check cycle.

ALL members of this board are absolutely fantastic at answering these questions - and doing the dealers job for them.

This reply is a dig at the dealers - not at the people who ask the questions!

 

Dealers please respond with your views of the "psychology" of the new bike handover process and tell us what you think of us punters!

[Joe_Rocket]

It is entirely possible that the designers of the code for the ABS controller use the switch to determine the position of the brake lever and from that, determine whether or not the brakes are being applied.

 

However... if the switch fails Open... or if the switch fails closed while you are riding your motorcycle... the brakes will work properly until you stop, turn off the motorcycle and restart it. If the brake light switch fails, you may get the residual effect of the loss of ABS after the turning off and restarting if indeed BMW engineers used switch position as indication of application of brakes.

They could have used a pressure switch to determine brake application, but this would have been more expensive and would have introduced another single point failure mode.

 

As with everything... the design is a tradeoff. Those who simply say "its a bad design" or "BMW engineers didn't know what they were doing" have no idea of the complexity and testing that goes into such a system.

 

JW

 

 

FYI, I helped a neighbor with an R12GS, whose brake light switch was stuck, leaving the bike with residual braking. I rode it like that, and I know the difference. Fixed the brake light switch, fixed the problem. The brake light switch alone prevented the self test from completing.

Paul in CA

'05 R1200RT

'98 XR400R

Other vintage

[Joe_Rocket]

My dealer went over a LONG checklist and they emphasized not to hold down the lever. When they finished, they made me read the checklist and then they made me sign it.

 

There was only one thing on the checklist that wasn't covered, and that was the fact that the "brake failure" light would stay on until I reached roughly 3mph. This one thing alone made me turn around, go back into the dealer and ask them why the brake failure light would not go off.

 

Victory BMW in Chandler Arizona is certainly not one of the dealers who is inadequate in this area. Perhaps BMW should remind dealers of how important this really is.

 

Joe West

 

 

I'm with you both. What really irritates me is the number of questions that arise because the dealer has not done a proper handover of the machine to his new (and admittedly very excited) customer.

We've got people who don't know how to charge their batteries, how to operate their ESA, and those who don't know how important keep their hand/foot off the brake during the ABS self-check cycle.

ALL members of this board are absolutely fantastic at answering these questions - and doing the dealers job for them.

This reply is a dig at the dealers - not at the people who ask the questions!

 

Dealers please respond with your views of the "psychology" of the new bike handover process and tell us what you think of us punters!

[Ken/OC]

Really? I do it all the time.

 

Everybody knows (I hope) to put the bike in 1st if parking nose downhill. If they don't know, they learn pretty quick!

 

The strange part about this whole thread is that on my 1150RT, in 50K miles of riding, I have never had a problem with the brakes on startup. If you're starting off uphill *naturally* you need to have the brakes on as you set out. When you release the brakes, the system cycles and the flashing light goes out.

 

I assume the new RT works the same. A failure to cycle and reset might be due to a rear pedal brakelight switch out of adjustment, which takes about 60 seconds to fix with a 10mm wrench. The adjustment is the same as on any other bike.

[David]

I don't really understand why you've picked this dog in the fight. Your passion and energy "for the cause" seems really out of proportion.

 

BMW can't expect to reinvent human behavior, and for decades now, no one's had to read any freakin' manual in order to operate the brakes on any vehicle made...in the world.

 

But this requires a special start-up procedure. That's not terribly complicated, really, as long as you stop and think about it. But then there are a half dozen things that can throw the system into a fault, leaving you with a fraction of normal braking. Okay, that's a little more serious, but what the hell, what's an extra 40 feet among friends. So, you say, "why didn't you look at the lights on the dash and stop?" Good question. Maybe I'd rather look ahead at the road. Maybe I'm not in a car where the light can be supplemented with an annoying ring ring ring.

 

But, I put this behind me and decide to dive into the manual. Just honestly, even then it's confusing. This light. That light. Flashing at certain cycles. Geez Louise.

 

And if you think the engineers at BMW aren't arrogant about human factors and adaptability, you've been living in a cave! Some engineers (most?) are really, really good. But there are some arrogant #$%@$!*$ out there that have answers to questions we aren't even asking.

[steveknapp]

I can see a problem if the system fails to restore itself after the brake is released if there is a battery issue. That doesn't in itself constitute a flaw in the system but rather a battery sizing issue IMHO.

 

I see that as two issues.

 

- You let the brakes test, then hold them while cranking over the bike, a drop in battery voltage resets the brake controller. it never self tests the 2nd time.

 

- You don't wait, hold the brake lever from the time the key is turned on, when releasing the brakes they don't do their self test.

 

#1 is a fault of the battery or the design. Some hexheads have seen early battery failures. Older oilheads had issues with ABS faults from battery issues. Still #1 should lead into #2 as soon as the brakes are released.

 

#2 is not how my GS behaves. Nor is it how my RT behaved. I went to check. Held the brake, turned the key on, started it, as soon as I then released the brake I got the "whee" as the servos did their self test.

 

Humor me, go try it on your bike! Hold the lever, key on, start it, let go, do you get the happy "whee" as the servos self test? Or are you left with resdual braking?

 

Sorry guys, we can sit here and piss and moan about this or that procedure, making the thing moron proof, whatever.. but what this gent describes does NOT match the behavior of either of the two servo equipped bikes I've owned. Which leaves me confused and curious if it's really broken..

 

FWIW, since we're talking about official procedures. Page 65 of my manual adresses this. Says to let the self test complete, apply the brakes, THEN pull the clutch, start the bike, and ride off.

 

4Hz flashing of the warning light indicates residual only braking, 1Hz is what you see once the "wee" self test completes.

 

They state that the self test won't complete until both levers are released, but don't mention what happens if you release them after you turn the key on.

[steveknapp]

Some engineers (most?) are really, really good. But there are some arrogant #$%@$!*$ out there that have answers to questions we aren't even asking.

 

You've got that backwards.

[Joe_Rocket]

Awwwwww.... now that's JUST not true. We are sometimes MISTAKEN for arrogant because we know everything

(Just ask my wife... <huge grin>)

 

Joe

 

 

quote]Some engineers (most?) are really, really good. But there are some arrogant #$%@$!*$ out there that have answers to questions we aren't even asking.

 

You've got that backwards.

[David]

Awwwwww.... now that's JUST not true. We are sometimes MISTAKEN for arrogant because we know everything

(Just ask my wife... <huge grin>)

 

[planepaul]

This will be the last time I ring in on this issue (It has been beaten to death).

I very simply and accurately simulated a brake light switch failure on My R12RT, and rode arround the block with residual braking only (and the light blinking 4 Hz).

That shows that the self test is geared to the brake light switch, as well as such things as quiescent pressure and circuit integrity. Try it yourself and see, if you care to.

What all this tells me is that the BMW self test logic includes elements that are not necessary for full brake function. I would call that a logic flaw. It produces complex indications for simple malfunctions, which can only hurt the customer, even if only in the pocketbook.

There is not another motor vehicle that I can think of that has this kind of startup regimen. Not one.

So we have to live with the way it is. Hopefully, we can do that.

Paul in CA

'05 R1200RT

'98 XR400R

Other vintage