Trouble getting a title.

[Dietrich]

Last year fall I bought a very nice R27 through a BMW dealer in CT who had the bike on consignment. It was a private sale however. I had the bike shipped here to Waterloo/Canada. Got it through customs with no problem, paid the GST and brought it home. Apart from a bill of sale I did not get any title and now the local License Office is demanding just that. The bike is 47 years old. The last owner did not have a title. The bike wasn't on the road for years. Does anyone have any idea how I can obtain a title or, what would also satisfy the local authorities , is a statement from the DMV that no record of the bike exists. I have tried in vain to get such documentation from the seller and the dealer. Any suggestions would be much appreciated. I like to get the thing on the road legally as soon as possible.

 

Thanks in advance.

[wbrissette]

The dealer should have never taken the bike in on consignment without a title. Each state has their own laws governing titles in the US. The dealership, and previous owner, you purchased this classic bike through, needs to help you out more. Having lived in Ontario, I doubt the Ontario Ministry of Transportation will help you out much. The previous owner really needs step up here.

 

Wayne

[UberXY]

Dietrich: there are a few companies in Alabama and Nevada that help you get a title on an old vehicle, at least here in the US. Essentially, they work around the fact that some states did not require titles until fairly recently - 1975 in the case of Alabama. What these companies do, for a fee, is have you sell the bike to them and then they sell it back to you, though no sales money changes hands, nor do they ever see the vehicle. Then you receive a new bill of sale from the company in Alabama and a letter saying that vehicles older than a certain year did not require a title in Alabama. Yes, it sounds sketchy, but some of these services have been around for decades and are reputable, and I have first hand experience with it. However, let me add that I do not know if this works in Canada.

 

Try a google search on "car title companies vintage". Also, you might find excellent advice somewhere on Hemmings website, or the AACA website. Rest assured that your problem has been solved before by someone.

[jjg3]

The dealer should have never taken the bike in on consignment without a title. Each state has their own laws governing titles in the US. The dealership, and previous owner, you purchased this classic bike through, needs to help you out more. Having lived in Ontario, I doubt the Ontario Ministry of Transportation will help you out much. The previous owner really needs step up here.

Wayne

 

According to the CT DMV you may be mistaken in this case. From the CT code: "The acquisition of a certificate of title for any vehicle manufactured prior to 1981 shall not be required."

It would appear neither the owner nor the shop is under obligation to have a title for a vehicle 47 years old. My state (VA) is the same way, a bill of sale is sufficient for older vehicles.

 

Of course this doesn't help the OP.

 

 

[Twisties]

In the US it is the responsibility of the seller to provide the title by law in most States. In most States a limited period of time, usually about a week, is allowed. If they do not you have grounds to demand your money back. Sharon has the title for her R26, and it's 51 years old.

 

Since you have also paid for shipping and GST I would demand that they cover that too.

 

The dealer took the bike on consignment. I just got done talking to our dealer about their consignment deals. They charge a bunch of money (a whole lot IMHO, more than you paid in shipping and GST combined, I am sure), require that the bike go through their service dept for inspection and service, and then stand behind the sale. I assume this dealer did similar.

 

I think this dealer needs to step in and fix this for you immediately, or you are going to contact CT DMV, attorney general, consumer protection, Better Business Bureau, and everyone else you can think of. I think the dealer can get in some serious trouble over this. If they aren't going to back the sale, then why were they in it to begin with?

 

 

[wbrissette]

However, let me add that I do not know if this works in Canada.

 

This would probably be bad in his case because he would get stuck at a minimum paying tax on the "sale" of the bike again. Since he has already brought the bike through customs, paid their fees, he most likely wouldn't be able to sell it to the firm in AL without that company getting it through customs again. When my friend's wife got her work permit renewed in Canada, she actually had to go back to the border and reenter the country again. Crazy as it sounds, that's just the way certain things are done. I would be amazed if a vehicle wasn't identical to that.

 

Oh, and jjg3, you're right... that's one of the reasons I mentioned that each state has it's own requirements on getting a title.

 

Wayne

[hopz]

I agree with Twisties, in theory, but that same dealer had a real problem delivering title to my bike- bought on consignment through them.

 

Turned out that the original sellers title was in the name of his business and not him personally. The state required information on the corporation, and proof the corporation's officers gave approval for the sale. Thus all sorts of complications arose. The dealer actually stood up here though and worked it through. I bet they will be more careful next time about non-standard deals.

 

Unfortunately it took a good bit of time to get things sorted, but they did.

 

Good luck to you Dietrich.

[Dietrich]

Thanks John and all others for their replies so far. I got more help here than from the selling parties. You quote the CT code. Could you let me know where in the code does it state that in regards to vintage vehicles, I could not find it.

 

Thank you and all for the help.

 

[smiller]

From the CT code: "The acquisition of a certificate of title for any vehicle manufactured prior to 1981 shall not be required."

It would appear neither the owner nor the shop is under obligation to have a title for a vehicle 47 years old. My state (VA) is the same way, a bill of sale is sufficient for older vehicles.

 

Of course this doesn't help the OP.

If the Canadian DMV has any sense at all it should. Surely there must be someone to which you can explain the fact that a title simply doesn't exist anymore (if it ever did for a bike of that age), and the CT statute should help back that up. There are only two answers that you could receive, either that they will grant an exception or that the vehicle can never, ever, ever be used in Canada. Hard to believe that they would stick to the latter answer.

[MrHondamatic]

FWIW, my son bought a 66 Ford Fairlane a few years ago. It was an Alabama car, which due to it's age, no longer had a title, and could not have one issued in that state. We did get a sworn affidavit from the local DMV stating the Alabama code, as well as the car not having a lein. That, and the bill of sale was all that was required by Indiana, to issue us a new title.

 

I would suggest checking with your DMV in Canada, explain the situation, and see what they require. If there is no title available, due to a state regulation, there will be some way to work around it.

[wbrissette]

Hard to believe that they would stick to the latter answer.

 

You've obviously never had to deal with the Ontario Ministry of Transportation...

 

Stand in a queue for 45 minutes to an hour just to be told 'no', by three people. But, that's OK, I felt the NJ DMV was just as unhelpful. I was glad when I moved back to Texas where despite some silly stuff, I'm usually always able to find somebody who has common sense and some way to get around the problem with state statutes.

 

Wayne

[Woodie]

Let me know if you need additional local assistance. I think the seller would be more useful.

 

I did get a call once on a bike I had owned some 5 years earlier--turns out I was the "last registered owner". I had to sign a form stating I had sold the bike (totalled in fact) so the current owner could register it.

 

All the in-between owners had been riding it w/o bothering to register it. :O

[smiller]

But, that's OK, I felt the NJ DMV was just as unhelpful. I was glad when I moved back to Texas where despite some silly stuff, I'm usually always able to find somebody who has common sense and some way to get around the problem with state statutes.

Don't even get me started with the NJ DMV... And I have to agree about Texas... it's the only place I've ever lived where I get the feeling that the state and local governments really know who the boss is.

[Dietrich]

Hi Wayne,

 

in the meantime I did get some results. The Ontario lic. office supplied me with a contact at the DMV in CT. I called them and asked for a search to be done. I do need a statement that no records are found by the DMV. The form is "J23" in triplicate. They will now send it to me and I'll fill it in and return it. Cost is $20 cash only. Then they will return the requsted search to me. It would take about 20 minutes for the seller or his agent to do it in CT but so far I was not able to get results from them. Anyway, it looks that I found a way, just not sure how long it will be.

As to the ON lic office, fortunately I am a Dealer and just go to the special dealer counter. But I do see the long lines and the generally slow process.

[big-t]

According to the CT DMV you may be mistaken in this case. From the CT code: "The acquisition of a certificate of title for any vehicle manufactured prior to 1981 shall not be required."

It would appear neither the owner nor the shop is under obligation to have a title for a vehicle 47 years old. My state (VA) is the same way, a bill of sale is sufficient for older vehicles.

 

 

 

Owning a vehicle with a bill of sale and getting it licensed with proper title are two different situations.

 

A bill of sale just shows you gave someone money for the vehicle but may not give you the right to title or licensing,depending on the states laws.

 

I would start with the Motor vehicle dealer board or whatever the equivalent is in CT and see what the dealer responsibilities are in a consignment sale.You may be able to force them or the seller to provide title or return you monies,unless it was written up as a "no title sale"Each state has different laws on this so some research will probably be necessary.

 

 

Here in Va the dealer board wields a very big club when a dealer steps out of line.I have forgotten all the requirments,but you won't get a title with just a bill of sale.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[gordiet]

I used the company in NV and it worked great. I bought an old BSA in Canada and brought it to Washington stste with no title.

 

GT

[Perlova]

I'm surprised that you got it through Canada Customs since they normally want to see the cancelled title. You should have stopped at US customs before entering Canada to have the title searched and cancelled.

[betty]

I'm surprised that you got it through Canada Customs since they normally want to see the cancelled title. You should have stopped at US customs before entering Canada to have the title searched and cancelled.

 

That is a US thing and not a requirement of Canada Customs.

[Dietrich]

Actually the Customs people Guelph were more than accomodating. Met me at the warehouse where the bike arrived, had all the forms filled out ahead of time and I paid no duty. Friendly and cooperative civil servants! What a pleasant surprise.

The title thing will be resolved, it will just take a bit of time. I learned a long time ago that if you want to get it done, do it yourself, dont rely on others to pull the cart out of the ditch. Like the dealer or the previous owner.

[Kathy R]

Shame on that previous owner for not stepping up.

[Dietrich]

Shame on that previous owner for not stepping up.

 

 

In defence of the seller I like to mention that the guy is struggling with cancer and I did not bother him much. However, I think the dealer could have been more pro activ. Other than that the deal was very smooth and professional. Well, you live and learn.

 

[Kathy R]

Shame on that previous owner for not stepping up.

 

 

In defence of the seller I like to mention that the guy is struggling with cancer and I did not bother him much. However, I think the dealer could have been more pro activ. Other than that the deal was very smooth and professional. Well, you live and learn.

 

My bad

[Bradley_Gillie]

I was glad when I moved back to Texas where despite some silly stuff, I'm usually always able to find somebody who has common sense and some way to get around the problem with state statutes.

 

Speaking of Texas - I believe that here in the Lone Star State, if someone was in your situation they could apply for a "Lost Title". Not exactly sure what happens when you do that, but I believe that if you show proof of the sale, they will then look up the VIN to make sure it has not been reported stolen. Then after a certain period of time, they will issue a new title to you.

 

You might want to try to check with the CT or Canadian officials to see if there is something similar.

[Dietrich]

Here is a positive end to this dilemma. The dealer did come through and arranged for the DMV to send me the required "No Record Found" form with the official rubber stamp and all. That should satisfy the Ontario office. I should be on the road in a week or so. Looking forward to it.

[Nice n Easy Rider]

Here is a positive end to this dilemma. The dealer did come through and arranged for the DMV to send me the required "No Record Found" form with the official rubber stamp and all. That should satisfy the Ontario office. I should be on the road in a week or so. Looking forward to it.

 

Gold star for the dealer. Glad it is all working out.

[BarOne]

I misread the title -- thought it read "trouble getting a little". Reminded me of my high school dating experience!

[Dietrich]

Well, it would have been the wrong forum.

But I laughed about it "now".

[Quinn]

I misread the title -- thought it read "trouble getting a little". Reminded me of my high school dating experience!

 

I did the same thing. Just assumed it was a married guy.