Paul Mihalka Posted May 2, 2009 Posted May 2, 2009 This morning coming out on our driveway (that's the good part) shifting from first to second all I get is a nasty noise but no drive in any gear. I was planning on a spline lube already because shifting was getting a bit notchy. I guess I got the traditional BMW clutch spline failure. I hoped BMW had it fixed for the hexheads...
Anton Largiader Posted May 2, 2009 Posted May 2, 2009 I think it's pretty safe to say they do have it fixed, but holy moly. That is an unexpected failure. I know you have experience with this so you are familiar with the noise, but I am wondering what else it could be. On a early '80s Airhead it would be the input shaft gear, for instance.
Marty Hill Posted May 2, 2009 Posted May 2, 2009 Paul, Sorry to see this but better at home than last weekend for sure.
Paul Mihalka Posted May 3, 2009 Author Posted May 3, 2009 70K miles on the bike. I think the drive shaft would make a different noise. The notchy shifting before it happened would also point to clutch spline. We'll see...
Indy Dave Posted May 3, 2009 Posted May 3, 2009 Paul, Sorry to see this but better at home than last weekend for sure. +1 Always hate to hear this kind of thing. How much more of a PITA it would be however, to have happened out in the boonies on a nice GS tail or 'cycle road . . . with no cell service. Time to trade??
Paul Mihalka Posted May 3, 2009 Author Posted May 3, 2009 "Time to trade?? " Who says the trade can't break?
Stan Walker Posted May 3, 2009 Posted May 3, 2009 I hoped BMW had it fixed for the hexheads... Me too. Not that I have one, a hexhead that is, I'm still riding my old oilheads (currently the '96). I'm waiting for them to wear out before I buy something newer, better?... Stan
eric2 Posted May 5, 2009 Posted May 5, 2009 Had mine let go @ 52k miles on my 05 12gs . Was pretty noisy at idle when warm and I could hear it rattling when coasting to a stop with clutch in. repair was covered by extended warranty, around $1100. Now has about 70k and is still quiet when warm.
Jack90210 Posted May 5, 2009 Posted May 5, 2009 Uh oh. I'm afraid to ask what spline failure costs to repair.
Lineareagle Posted May 5, 2009 Posted May 5, 2009 You can always tell a long time BMW rider. A spline failure is a 'gremlin'. How quaint! Glad it was at home. Will you be doing the repair yourself Paul? And can you better describe what a 'notchy' feel is like?
Paul Mihalka Posted May 5, 2009 Author Posted May 5, 2009 You can always tell a long time BMW rider. A spline failure is a 'gremlin'. How quaint! Glad it was at home. Will you be doing the repair yourself Paul? And can you better describe what a 'notchy' feel is like? Do the repair myself? Heck, no. That's one of the good things of working at a BMW dealer. Notchy shift? Like going to shift from third to second, it doesn't go. Then I try again with a more careful throttle blip, and it goes.
Bill_Walker Posted May 6, 2009 Posted May 6, 2009 Maybe you can find a dealer nearby... Good luck. (for those who don't know (posted above, I think), Paul works at a BMW dealer).
OoPEZoO Posted May 6, 2009 Posted May 6, 2009 Wow Paul....that stinks. I'm sure you will, but please keep us updated once your bike gets into the shop. I'd like to see pics of what they find if possible. After rebuilding my 1100 transmission last fall due to stripped splines, I was really hoping BMW had this fixed on the Hexheads. If we start seeing this pop up in the 50-80k mile range, I'm afraid that might be it for me and this line of bikes. Its amazing to me that BMW can build high horse power RWD sports sedans that can go 200k+ miles with no wear what so ever on their transmission input shafts.......then they turn around and give us this BS on a lightweight, low power touring motorcycle. I still don't understand why they don't go to a basic pilot bearing setup that is used on every other vehicle known to man. [/rant] Anyway.....best of luck with the repair Paul. Keep us in the loop
T__ Posted May 6, 2009 Posted May 6, 2009 Keith, lots of newer vehicles don’t use the input shaft pilot bearing.. The pilot bearing is/was required on split input shafts as there was need for support on the short one-bearing floating input shaft.. A lot of the later transmissions use more than 2 gear shafts so use a one piece input shaft with bearing support spaced out on each end.. The use of a pilot bearing pretty well precludes the use of push rod through the center of the input shaft for clutch release.. That would then require a longer spacing in the bell housing area to allow a hydraulic clutch actuator in that area or room for a conventional throw out bearing & clutch fork.. That would push the trans & output shaft rearward farther forcing a shorter drive shaft & steeper drive line angles (or a longer wheel base).. There are other issues on the spline failure issue (not the place to discuss here) but an awful lot of automobiles use a stub input shaft without pilot bearing support & those cars go 200,000 miles plus without spline shaft failure.. Twisty
Paul Mihalka Posted May 6, 2009 Author Posted May 6, 2009 "but an awful lot of automobiles use a stub input shaft without pilot bearing support & those cars go 200,000 miles plus without spline shaft failure.." This is the part I don't get with the BMW bike clutch failures.
T__ Posted May 6, 2009 Posted May 6, 2009 Paul, not that it is the main cause but with just 2 cylinders the firing power pulses are very high & sharp so any other issues are magnified by the 2 cylinder light flywheel R engine.. I have worked in the auto industry for many many years & followed up on many field failures & very few incidences of clutch disk or input shaft spline failure reported on automobiles or light trucks.. The only similar clutch disk (or input shaft) high wear or failures I have seen were in the heavy trucks with sharp firing diesels & chuggle type launch loads.. If you can feel the engine firing on each firing stroke so can the clutch splines.. The old 2 cylinder John Deere tractors would wear the primary gear teeth in the area of the pistons firing way above the other places on the gears & if you think BMW has spline wear issues do some research on John Deere 2 cylinder clutch driver spline failures.. Would not only tear the clutch driver splines up but also the crankshaft splines.. The 2 cylinder J.D. Diesels would also tear the splines out of the flywheel & crankshaft ( & those are some very large & deep splines).. Twisty
TheTick Posted May 6, 2009 Posted May 6, 2009 I guess my non-bmw riding friends are accurate when saying my bike resembles a tractor.... Damn.
Paul Mihalka Posted May 6, 2009 Author Posted May 6, 2009 Paul, not that it is the main cause but with just 2 cylinders the firing power pulses are very high & sharp so any other issues are magnified by the 2 cylinder light flywheel R engine.. I have worked in the auto industry for many many years & followed up on many field failures & very few incidences of clutch disk or input shaft spline failure reported on automobiles or light trucks.. The only similar clutch disk (or input shaft) high wear or failures I have seen were in the heavy trucks with sharp firing diesels & chuggle type launch loads.. If you can feel the engine firing on each firing stroke so can the clutch splines.. The old 2 cylinder John Deere tractors would wear the primary gear teeth in the area of the pistons firing way above the other places on the gears & if you think BMW has spline wear issues do some research on John Deere 2 cylinder clutch driver spline failures.. Would not only tear the clutch driver splines up but also the crankshaft splines.. The 2 cylinder J.D. Diesels would also tear the splines out of the flywheel & crankshaft ( & those are some very large & deep splines).. Twisty This is the best explanation of the problem I have read. In this case a nice weighty flywheel would help a lot - but I'm not sure I would want one...
Paul Mihalka Posted May 6, 2009 Author Posted May 6, 2009 Posted my spline "history" on Advrider: My long term clutch spline history: '74 R90S, spline went at 50K miles. At that time I didn't know spline lubing is a needed procedure. '82 R100 110k miles, '86 K75 200K miles, '91 K75RT 130K miles, '94 K1100LT 80K miles, no spline failures. On these bikes often I just loosened the gearbox from the engine and pulled it back complete with swing arm, put some grease on it and bolt it back together. '99 R1100RT. For the oilheads BMW stopped recommending spline lubing (may be they were just ashamed) so I didn't. They failed at 80K miles. Rebuilt with new disk and input shaft. Did spline lube 40K later, they looked good. Sold bike with 175K on it and it worked fine. '02 R1150R. Splines failed at 29K miles, in Middle Of Nowhere, AR. Over $1.000 to IHAUL it home. Bike was out of warranty for time. '02 oilheads were probably the most notorious for clutch spline failures, I guess because a bad batch of gearbox housings. Repaired installing a brand new gearbox, with some help from BMW "good will" warranty and help from my employers, Battley Cycles/BMW. Bike burned in a fire at 76K miles, splines were fine. '05 R1200GS with 70K miles. Again BMW was supposed to have fixed the spline problem on the hexheads. Bike is in the shop right now, with suspected spline failure, not taken apart yet. Do you think I'm pissed?
T__ Posted May 6, 2009 Posted May 6, 2009 Paul, with all that spline failure history BMW should be camped at your door trying to understand how you are getting all those failures.. They (BMW) really needs to give you a new bike a year & have you run the drivetrain durability testing for them.. Sounds like your type of riding is accelerating the spline wear issue.. You do seem to put a lot of miles on the chassis.. Are you riding those things like you are trying to set a new lap record around the Isle Of Mann? Twisty
Paul Mihalka Posted May 6, 2009 Author Posted May 6, 2009 "Are you riding those things like you are trying to set a new lap record around the Isle Of Mann?" I wish! My last track ride was in 2001 with the R1100RT. I'm just a old fart traveling on the bike. Most everything else on my bikes seems to last forever. None of them ever had a cylinder head removed. My spline problems really started when with the oilheads BMW stopped recommending spline service, and I believed them.
Paul Mihalka Posted May 6, 2009 Author Posted May 6, 2009 So, Paul, how do we lube our RT splines? You join the tail in the air club. Do all the work needed to remove the gearbox, clean the input shaft and clutch plate splines, put some heavy in Moly lube on it and put it all together. A pain in the butt...
Lone_RT_rider Posted May 6, 2009 Posted May 6, 2009 So, Paul, how do we lube our RT splines? You join the tail in the air club. Do all the work needed to remove the gearbox, clean the input shaft and clutch plate splines, put some heavy in Moly lube on it and put it all together. A pain in the butt... What Paul is referring to, is something like this..... I have gotten so good at this procedure, that the last time I did this it took my 2.5 hours to get the bike to level you see above. Shawn
markgoodrich Posted May 6, 2009 Posted May 6, 2009 Hmm. Go through all that brain damage, breaking ten things along the way, or get an extended warranty....?
ScottT Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 I am surprised and disturbed by this thread. Surprised because my experience with the oil/hexheads has been completely the opposite of yours. I am disturbed because I know who you are... You are not a rider with an axe to grind and not a rider who abuses his bike. Is it possible you've just had really bad luck with the splines? The reason I ask this is my first oilhead, a very early 1994 R1100RS had 110,000 miles on it when i changed the clutch. I looked very hard at the clutch splines because BMW said they needed no lube. My previous mount was a 1984 R100RS and I had lubed the spines on it regularly. Anyway, at 110k the spines on the '94 R1100 were pristine. There was almost no visible wear. My next two oilheads didn't have many miles (38k and 43k) when I sold them so I that they didn't have spline trouble isn't saying much. My current mount the '05 RT now has 76k. I sure hope I don't have a surprise waiting for me. On a positive note my clutch operation is as smooth as ever. With my R100 I always knew it was time for a lube because the clutch operation would get stiff. I've never experienced that on an oilhead or my hex. I hope they get you fixed up quickly.
SWB Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 So, Paul, how do we lube our RT splines? You join the tail in the air club. Do all the work needed to remove the gearbox, clean the input shaft and clutch plate splines, put some heavy in Moly lube on it and put it all together. A pain in the butt... What Paul is referring to, is something like this..... Ya know, I've decided to forget worrying about it. I heard some weird noises out of my RT and thought I smelled oil burning the other day ... always worrying about something. Then I thought to myself, "hey, you pulled the bike apart to the rear engine seals on your R1100RTP, the splines were shinny new at 57K miles and the tranny was toast - go figure. If the R1200RT breaks, fix it and ride". Something will probably break in the next 50K miles and cost me time and money, but I like this bike, I got it for a nice price, I can afford to fix it if I do it myself, and it'll be easier the next time (though the hydraulic clutch and power assisted brakes have me all spooked - more high tech stuff to understand and worry about). I'm riding "bare", no warranty but my own wallet, and having fun. Sorry about Paul's misfortune, but I'm sure he's focusing on the 70K miles of fun he had before the failure, and the fun he's GOING to have as soon as it's out of the shop. I'm sure as HECK not going to strip the bike down to put molly on my splines. If they break, then it'll probably need a rear engine seal or a clutch plate or something else. I'll buy the expensive parts, send the bigger, complex components out for repair to an independent guy, but I'm not striping it down for "extra special preventative maintenance just in case". I'm even thinking about leaving the final drive with the "permanent BMW lubricant" until it fails before changing the fluid - but that's not all that hard, will probably do that anyway at 48K. Scott
SWB Posted May 7, 2009 Posted May 7, 2009 I have gotten so good at this procedure, that the last time I did this it took my 2.5 hours to get the bike to level you see above. Well, that's because you can see both your workbench AND your garage floor. I have a three car garage with three bikes and no cars in it, my 21 year old son using it, and not ONE inch of that damn space belongs to me. I have to spend an hour looking for my tools and clearing space everytime I check my air or oil. (But, when he's finally gone, I'm gonna miss the kid. I just keep telling myself about the priorities ...)
Ken H. Posted May 8, 2009 Posted May 8, 2009 Paul, Lots of hand wringing going on in this thread, but have they actually verfied yet that this is indeed a spline failure on a hexhead?
eric2 Posted May 8, 2009 Posted May 8, 2009 Just to follow up on my earlier reply, I've got over 250k on 7 different bmws and never had a clutch spline failure, or an FD failure for that matter until my 1200gs blew them. besides the OP's and my spline destruction, and all of the others on the 1200 series I've heard of we're still talking less than half a dozen. Since there prolly are over 250k units OTR that seems like an acceptably low failure rate. Faulty metallurgy or fritz forgot to lube it on the assy line after a few on Friday afternoon would be my guess as to why. Your time would be better spent worrying about cheap fuel line QDs.
Paul Mihalka Posted May 8, 2009 Author Posted May 8, 2009 Paul, Lots of hand wringing going on in this thread, but have they actually verfied yet that this is indeed a spline failure on a hexhead? Yes, bike is in pieces and it is the clutch/input shaft splines. The disk center is completely gone. The input shaft has relatively good splines left, but not good enough to put a new disk on it. Instead of repairing my 70K miles transmission, Mike Figielski/Beemerboneyard has a R1200RT transmiossion with 3K miles which should fit. He also has a complete low mileage clutch assembly without the disk, which I am getting. Pictures later, may be.
mrzoom Posted May 9, 2009 Posted May 9, 2009 Paul, just a question, you got that bike used if I remember correctly. Possible previous owner abuse??
Paul Mihalka Posted May 9, 2009 Author Posted May 9, 2009 Paul, just a question, you got that bike used if I remember correctly. Possible previous owner abuse?? Nope, I don't think so. He put 6K miles on it, I did 66K. It is just wear and tear on a not very wear resistant BMW part.
smiller Posted May 9, 2009 Posted May 9, 2009 Paul, do the splines appear to be worn evenly from front-to-back along the shaft?
Paul Mihalka Posted May 9, 2009 Author Posted May 9, 2009 Paul, do the splines appear to be worn evenly from front-to-back along the shaft? Pretty much so, but I'll take some pictures when it is clean.
Ken H. Posted May 9, 2009 Posted May 9, 2009 Paul, Lots of hand wringing going on in this thread, but have they actually verfied yet that this is indeed a spline failure on a hexhead? Yes, bike is in pieces and it is the clutch/input shaft splines. The disk center is completely gone. The input shaft has relatively good splines left, but not good enough to put a new disk on it. Ah, well, let the hand wringing continue then... Sigh...
Paul Mihalka Posted May 14, 2009 Author Posted May 14, 2009 you back on the road yet Paul? Not yet. Parts came in yesterday...
JayW Posted May 14, 2009 Posted May 14, 2009 Mike Figielski/Beemerboneyard has a R1200RT transmiossion with 3K miles which should fit... Is this the same transmission that comes with the GS, or are you going to have some different gear ratios to get used to? Jay
Paul Mihalka Posted May 14, 2009 Author Posted May 14, 2009 Mike Figielski/Beemerboneyard has a R1200RT transmiossion with 3K miles which should fit... Is this the same transmission that comes with the GS, or are you going to have some different gear ratios to get used to? Jay Gear ratios are somewhat different, but I don't care as long as it bolts up. The original GS ratios were not exactly the way I'd want them anyways.
Paul Mihalka Posted May 20, 2009 Author Posted May 20, 2009 Bike is up and running. Everything went together smoothly. One odd thing: The clutch releases fully, when in gear you can roll it around easy with the clutch pulled, but it engages with the lever real close to the handlebar, like a fraction of an inch. When rolling, like 6th gear 70mph steady on the throttle, it starts slipping with the lever in half way, not when barely touching the lever like it used to be. As the bike is repaired with a mix and match of parts, there may be some tolerance differences somewhere. The bike is '05 R1200GS. The gearbox is from a '07 R1200RT. The clutch pressure plate/spring were used but really perfect condition. Clutch plate is new. Slave cylinder and push rod are the original from the bike. We bled the hydraulics a couple of times. Clutch lever feel is solid, not mushy soft like I know it from air in the line. Main question: Is there something hiding that will break down? I hate hydraulic clutches...
Anton Largiader Posted May 20, 2009 Posted May 20, 2009 I hate hydraulic clutches... And here I am trying to figure out how to add one to an Airhead. I'm thinking that the new friction disk and used pressure plate aren't a perfect match, so they are providing a bit of give as they get squeezed together. In this case, as they wear together the engagement will become crisper.
Paul Mihalka Posted May 20, 2009 Author Posted May 20, 2009 Thanks for the quick and valuable answer. I hope you are right.
BeemerLover Posted May 20, 2009 Posted May 20, 2009 For what it is worth, several years ago mention was made on another forum (Chromeheads) by a very well respected BMW wrench that one of the reasons for spline failure was that either the output shaft or the input hole was not square with the mounting surface.
Paul Mihalka Posted May 21, 2009 Author Posted May 21, 2009 Some pictures: The clutch disk: The input shaft:
OoPEZoO Posted May 21, 2009 Posted May 21, 2009 yup.....looks like every other spline failure we've seen in the past 10+ years. I guess I was hoping for something a little more unique. Thanks for posting up the pics Paul, and glad you are back on the road. What are the collective thoughts there at the dealership?
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