US: A Nation of Cowards on Racial Matters

[Dave McReynolds]

But to simply mandate that these people be set free without any compensation to the plantation owners is like asking someone to just let tens or hundreds of thousands of personal net worth just walk away scott free!

 

I think that probably overstates the financial consequences to the plantation owners of having their slaves freed. Objectively speaking, the farmers who were able to hold on to their farms after the Civil War could just hire workers from a vast pool of unemployed people for as long as he needed them and then send them on down the road when he didn't. Slaves had to be maintained year-round, which has to have been a more expensive proposition.

 

I think it was more emotional than economic. Sort of like the threat of gun laws now, but much stronger, I think. Even the most strident of gun fanatics has to put up with a lot of people telling them what to do these days in the US, so they sort of get used to it. In those days, I don't think a typical white plantation owner ever contemplated that anyone would ever tell him what to do about anything.

[DavidEBSmith]

Sometimes, I wonder what a "black 24" television show would look like, or a "black X-Files" show. Drug Lords would be portrayed as aliens from other planets intent on taking over the earth. As their influence over law enforcment and local governments spreads, that means their evil plans to conquor the world are coming to fruition. Governments and multinational corporations are, of course, simply "window dressing" to mask the true workings of these alien beings. In other words, it's not secret federal agencies that work in collusion with alien interests like on "X-Files" or "24", it's these ever powerful drug lords that do.

 

Here's a recent review of a new book called Blonde Roots that sounds interesting:

 

For those who suffered during 400 years of transatlantic slave trade, the story Bernardine Evaristo weaves in Blonde Roots could have been a dream come true. In her fantastical reversal, the British-Nigerian author makes white Europeans the slaves and black Africans the slave owners.

 

The main character, Doris Scagglethorpe, is a 10-year-old serf on England's "Cabbage Coast" when she is abducted while playing hide-and-seek with her sisters in the fields.

. . .

"Every morning I'd repeat an uplifting mantra to myself while looking in the mirror. I'd try not to see the 'pinched nostrils, pasty skin, greasy hair, pale shifty eyes and flat bottom' that the Ambossans labeled inferior."

. . .

When Doris makes an early break for freedom, she rides an Underground Railroad that is an abandoned subway line. She passes through the "Vanilla Suburbs," home to free whites "and generally a no-go area" to the ruling elite.

 

More reviews here on Amazon.

[Mister Tee]

In reference to a few posts made a while back, I'll try to answer the question of how one race can hate another by drawing an analogy. To my own life.

 

There was a period of time when I was younger, I had many negative influences in my life. Or at least, certainly, not productive influences. My hero was Malcolm X, and I aligned myself with radical black extremist groups such as the Black Panthers. Ain't never trust whitey. Whitey is the MAN. The MAN is out to get you. Isolate yourself from the white man. This was a long time ago, and I'm not in any way proud of those associations. Basically, I grew up. Did I really hate white people? Of course not. Were white people really out to get me? Of course not. So what was I so afraid of? That's a question I asked myself, and the answer became apparent sometime after entering military service, when we all became one color, green.

 

I was afraid of losing my identity. My black color. My race. My heritage. It occurred to me that, to a great extent, white people felt the same way. A lot of the hatred and animosity toward blacks (and other races) was really displaced fear over losing their own identity through integration, and eventual racial intermarriage. This is a very perplexing issue to black people in America, since the majority of black Americans have at least some degree of white in their genes. Most black males have the attitude that "if we mix all the races in to one, the problems of the world will be solved." And similarly, most black females do not approve of racial intermarriage. That has been my experience, anyway.

 

Me, I'm proud of being black and I don't want my race to die. Similarly, I think a world where we are all one race would be boring, and we would find plenty of other ways to divide ourselves and compete with each other. That is the nature of man. I also believe that the majority of white people feel the same way. The issue of racial intermarriage will always remain as a wedge to complete and total integration and harmony, and it is one that I do not readily have an answer for.

[Paul Mihalka]

"The issue of racial intermarriage will always remain as a wedge to complete and total integration and harmony, and it is one that I do not readily have an answer for."

 

I respectfully disagree with you. I see among friends and people I meet wonderfully functioning iterracial marriages. White with black or oriental like Japanese/Chinese/Korean, white Persian (they are NOT Arabs) with a wonderful lady from Sierra Leone, You name it. May be we end up with a few more Tiger Woods and Barack Obamas...

[Mister Tee]

"The issue of racial intermarriage will always remain as a wedge to complete and total integration and harmony, and it is one that I do not readily have an answer for."

 

I respectfully disagree with you. I see among friends and people I meet wonderfully functioning iterracial marriages. White with black or oriental like Japanese/Chinese/Korean, white Persian (they are NOT Arabs) with a wonderful lady from Sierra Leone, You name it. May be we end up with a few more Tiger Woods and Barack Obamas...

 

My point isn't to agree or disagree with anyone, attack anyone or alienate anyone. I'm just respectfully raising the issue, because I believe it to be one, that's all.

 

BTW I'm not disagreeing with you.

[MattS]

...that probably overstates the financial consequences to the plantation owners of having their slaves freed...farmers who were able to hold on to their farms after the Civil War could just hire workers from a vast pool of unemployed people for as long as he needed them and then send them on down the road when he didn't. Slaves had to be maintained year-round, which has to have been a more expensive proposition.

 

I think it was more emotional than economic...

I think it was very much an economic situation. Were slavery economically viable in an industrializing economy, it would have been preserved.

 

Around 4,000,000 slaves were freed during the course of the war, with an average value (in 1860 dollars) of $1,800 per head. The equivalent would be as if the government came to Hertz and said, "These cars you own. Not yours." Huge blow, entirely economic.

 

Now, to maintain persons in the northern economy, in the 1860s undergoing industrialization, is a very costly endeavor. Much cheaper and suitable to pay wages alone. Dismantling the plantation economy was very advantageous to the north, the human rights aspect certainly secondary and used to political advantage (and military victory).

 

The war, and the ending of the institution of slavery in the United States, was certainly a sea change. The grinding of the plates, so to speak, of the agrarian economy and the industrial. And remarkable that it didn't involve a slave rebellion despite large numbers in some districts.

 

An ultimately happy ending, but very much an economic decision at the time.

[ncsonderman]

Just like some religious leaders who refuse to speak up when their members commit terrible crimes (honor killings), I find that I can not accept the fact that leaders in the black community do not speak up.

 

Except for Bill Cosby, few, if any, black leaders are addressing the number one issue that keeps the culture of poverty alive and well. Single mothers. Any way you analyze it, a single mother has the deck stacked against not only her, but her children as well. This is not an issue that will be solved by government programs, compassionate whites (liberal or conservative) or other well meaning non-blacks. It can only be solved by the black community and will only be addressed when the community refuses to let it be the norm.

 

It also saddens me to see the statistics of the percentage of young black males in prison. A whole generation is being lost.

 

 

 

 

I haven't yet read all of the pages (only to page 7), but I wanted to chime in before bed. Although I do really respect Bill Cosby and maybe Chris Rock for pointing out truths through their positions, I think that one flaw with pointing out the many single black mothers is the lack of pointing out why they are single black mothers. Our criminal justice system has tried to round as many black men up as possible due to minimal drug charges etc. I know that many crimes are jailable offenses, but the fact is that our system is flawed. Look at the difference for penalties for getting caught with a small amount of crack cocaine (black oriented) vs. powder cocaine (white oriented and more dangerous). Not only is there a disparity in the amount needed to do serious time, it's a huge difference. Trust me when I say that I'm not someone who thinks that we should let criminals walk the streets. I am actually hold the extreme belief that people who commit violent crimes should be executed if enough evidence is there to convict. They are not a quality part of society and have forfeited their right to remain in our society.

 

I grew up in the Ohio suburbs and did have black friends who I did everything with. I've been to parties in which I was the only white person there and saw the same types of reactions that the diners in the Omaha steakhouse displayed when the black man enterred with his buddy. I did have to get frisked at the door which I found odd and pointed out to everyone that they were reinforcing stereotypes by having fried chicken and koolaid (in addition to the adult beverages)....really not kidding about that stuff. We got in a brawl on High St. in Columbus when some guys made some racial remarks (this was in the early 90's).

 

I've done some reading on race, the most recent being the NYT best seller "The Covenant" by the Tavis Miley group. I don't always agree with what I read, but it's good to get other viewpoints. That is the same reason that people should not listen solely to Liberal media or Limbaugh media. Getting both viewpoints is most often the best plan, even if it's just a way to have better amunition when arguing your position later.

 

I agree with the statements about Sharpton that were made earlier. I actually dealt with him while at a NC hosptital and could not believe how corrupt this man was. That is definitely NOT a leader who people should follow.

 

Race needs to go away and we need to focus on the content of the individual rather than the cover. If you are poorly educated, have poor manners, have a disrespectful appearance, or show a lack of social awareness, I'm not going to spend much time with you. A person needs to take responsibility for who they are and how they represent themselves. I'm not saying you have to have invented the gamma knife, just that you look around and want to improve yourself. Take responsiblity for your own decisions. Sadly, our government enables such behavior and is now moving forward rapidly to take away individual rights. They are working as we speak to finalize the enslavement of our doctors with national healthcare. Healthcare a right? What's next?

 

Sorry I got off topic a bit. Just focus on the substance of the person. If you don't like them after you meet them, don't spend time with them and move on to someone who is worth spending time with, regardless of epithelial tone.

[beemerman2k]

DavidEBSmith: that looks like an interesting book. I'll have to read it for myself to see the portrayal of history the book offers up.

 

There have been a few role reversal films that have come out over the years. A few that I remember include:

 

- "The Hulk" with Bill Bixby: an episode where a black farmer captures whites and holds them as slaves. Great plan except for one little mistake, he also captured The Hulk! Uh oh...

 

- "White Man's Burden": A film that came out in the mid-90's, starring Harry Belafonte and I think John Travolta, in which the roles of blacks and whites in this country are reversed. Harry's family are well to do, respected people in their community, and if I remember correctly, his son or daughter is dating a white person. Then the many prejudices of Belafonte's character of that largely disfunctional race of people come out into the open. Interesting encounter Travolta's character has with the police as well.

 

- Saturday Night Live's "Mr. White": A must see skit starring Eddie Murphy as "Mr White". Eddie dresses up as a white man and takes a walk around Manhattan to see what life is like when you're white. He buys a newspaper and the vendor looks at him strangly when Mr White attempts to actually pay for the paper. He rides a city bus, and when the last black passenger exits, a cocktail party breaks literally breaks out on the bus! And finally, Mr White goes to a bank to take out a loan. The black loan officer, shocked that Mr. White has no job or documentation supporting his ability to repay the loan, is amazed that this man would even bother to apply. Then, a white co-worker offers to handle the situation, and of course apologizes for the treatment by his black co-worker and proceeds to hand over stacks of cash to Mr. White! I found this little skit to be halarious as it plays on the image most blacks have of the relatively easy life white men must enjoy in this country.

[Dave McReynolds]

Around 4,000,000 slaves were freed during the course of the war, with an average value (in 1860 dollars) of $1,800 per head. The equivalent would be as if the government came to Hertz and said, "These cars you own. Not yours." Huge blow, entirely economic.

 

To complete the analogy, the equivalent would be as if the government came to Hertz and said, "These cars you own. Not yours to own anymore, but we will make available to you a fleet of cars that you can continue to rent out provided that you pay the upkeep and fuel costs for them."

 

Granted, the plantation owners lost their capital investment in slaves. However, if the purpose of making a capital investment is to realize a future benefit, the future benefit was still available after the Civil War, through hiring day labor, at arguably a lower cost than before the Civil War under the slave system.

 

I would offer that the only group truly to suffer economically from the abolishment of slavery were those who profited as slave traders. And to that I say, "Oh well!"

 

Sorry, there was another group who suffered economically from the abolishment of slavery: the slaves themselves, who in general probably weren't fed or housed as well after emancipation. But I don't hear many of their descendents complaining about it.

[beemerman2k]

Basically, I grew up.

 

Great personal testimony Mister_Tee I can certainly identify with what you are saying. In my early 20's, I went through a serious Malcolm X time. There I was, a happy go lucky black man in Boston (a city known for its poor attitudes on race although it has come a looooong way since those days), and I bought a copy of "The Autobiography of Malcolm X". Man, I thought an 18 wheeler truck had hit me at full steam! That book floored me. That's when I officially joined the "Bitterness Movement", or what Dr. Martin Luther King called the "Politics of Despair" (when you hear his speeches and he talks about the "Politics of Despair", this is what he's talking about, groups like the Black Power Movement and the Nation of Islam to name just the most prominent).

 

I had good, long, debates with -- mostly my father, but with other relatives as well (such as my grandfather, Moses Granberry). I couldn't understand why these people -- people who actually lived and experienced all that racism had to dish out (my father was born into a family of sharecroppers and picked cotton in Tennessee until he was about 10 years old) were not angry and rallying to Malcolm X's cause :confused:

 

They would listen to his speeches, agree with Malcolm in principle with his analysis of the race problem in America, but then part ways with him on 1) his views that all whites in America are "devils" and 2) his solutions of separatism and "black Nationalism" (a move to create -- preferably a formal political state, but an informal one if necessary, where blacks live, rule, and maintain our own economic independence from the United States).

 

OK, at my father's urging, and because of his lifelong admiration for Dr. King, I decided to investigate the counter argument -- that of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. I poured myself into all 6 books that King authored, with my favorites being, "Stride Toward Freedom" (written in 1959 and focusing on the Montgomery Bus Boycott with some deep theological insights into the race problem) and "Strength to Love", a collection of speeches that he decided to write down. This is the book that his great speech, "Tough Minds, Tender Hearts", a speech I referenced earlier in this thread, appears. Tough minds alone = bitterness movement thinking. It is blind to one's own contributions to the issue at hand. It seeks not reconciliation and peace, but war and division. Tender hearts alone = quiet submission to an unjust system. It turns a blind eye to the problems at hand, seeking instead to simply inquire, "Can't we all just get along?". A Tough Mind + with a Tender Heart = a willingness to conquor the problem without seeking to conquor the people. It seeks to "take the plank out of ones own eye first, then to help remove the speck from your brothers eye". It places ones own life on the line first, and calls others not to do as you say, but to do as you DO. OK, although as it turns out, this "peace, love, and non-violence" stuff is actually more difficult than what all out war would be, sign me up, I'm sold! It's more difficult on the body, but offers a great deal of peace to the soul. As sister Pollard replied to Dr. King's inquiry over whether she was tired having to walk to work everyday during the Montgomery Bus Boycott, "My feets is tired, but my soul is at rest". That is now the name of a popular book on the Civil Rights Movement.

 

Been on King's side ever since.

 

In short,

 

Basically, I grew up.

[beemerman2k]

Sorry, there was another group who suffered economically from the abolishment of slavery: the slaves themselves, who in general probably weren't fed or housed as well after emancipation. But I don't hear many of their descendents complaining about it.

 

Actually, you do, you just don't recognize it as such. This whole reparations movement is based upon a promise made to the slaves at some point in history (frankly, I know nothing about the origins of this promise, maybe someone out there care's to educate me on this?) that upon emancipation, each slave family would get "40 acres and a mule" (which is also the name of Spike Lee's film company) so they could farm their own land and survive. The promise was never fulfilled, many freed slaves literally starved to death, and many blacks are angry about that to this day. Thus the call for reparations.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

This whole reparations movement is based upon a promise made to the slaves at some point in history (frankly, I know nothing about the origins of this promise, maybe someone out there care's to educate me on this?) that upon emancipation, each slave family would get "40 acres and a mule" (which is also the name of Spike Lee's film company) so they could farm their own land and survive.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/40_acres_and_a_mule

[BanjoBoy]

This is great beemerman2k, I keep reading all these treads with different peoples aspects/views, on Racism, and it really gets me thinking. (and keeps me thinking)

And thanks Les for letting it go on.

 

Since a woman I work with from Harlem, plays the Deliverance Theme when I walk into the room, I'm going to take this opportunity to change my display name to BanjoBoy!

We don't want to take ourselves to seriously. (Unless we're talking about oil threads)

Even though we have a ways to go as far as racism, (I understand what Holder is saying, but he could've should've worded it differently) we sure have come a long way.

 

We all came here for sport touring, but riders discuss other topics has the most posts and I think that shows the level of intellect here.

When I signed up to BMWST, I never thought I would be enlightened on racial matters.

Man I love this forum!

 

[doc47]

I never knew that other Presidents, least of all Bush, were ever humorously compared with chimps! Thank you for making me aware of this. Now I am going to forward this "Bush or Chimp" link to every one I know who is angry over the New York Post cartoon. Seeing this material causes me to see yesterdays cartoon in a new light. Prior to this link, the only light I had was that of history -- and not all that ancient history, either. When Rodney King was being beaten down by the CHP's back in 1991, the cops were jokingly referring to him as a "gorilla in the midst".

 

In the 1860s there were cartoons of Lincoln depicting him as an ape.

 

"Until the color of man's skin is of no more significance,

Than the color of his eyes...."

Bob Marley

[beemerman2k]

doc47: this term, "Toubab", is used in Alex Haley's book, "Roots", in reference to white Europeans and Americans. But, as far as I can recall, the book never takes the time to actually define the term -- is it neutral in it's meaning? Derogatory? Complimentary? What exactly is the meaning behind the term?

 

By the way, major kudos to you for your life's work. Your work carries much in the way of significance and meaning! Money cannot buy the kind of difference you are making

[KMG_365]

Man I love this forum!

Word!

 

 

Makes me squeal like a pig!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[StuGotz]

When Rodney King was being beaten down by the CHP's back in 1991, the cops were jokingly referring to him as a "gorilla in the midst".

 

***These were LA Police, not CHP...*****

 

MB>

[BanjoBoy]

Man I love this forum!

Word!

 

 

Makes me squeal like a pig!

 

 

 

 

"Now squeal like a pig! Boy!"

Man, how could I have forgotten that line? (Cuz I'm not cool?)

Hey Jamie, I got to use that for my sig line. OK?