Steroids - how many more will test positive...

[velomoto]

Today's sports news: A-rod tested positive for Steroids. Being a long time bike race fan I find it amusing how fans of other sports believe only a small number of athletes are juicing. Until there are real tests we won't find out how many are cheating. Until there are real penalties there is little chance of stopping drug use.

 

The interesting situation for pro cyclists (and I suppose many athletes), in the sunset years of their careers they have three options:

1. Don't use drugs, work harder, and maybe not make the team.

2. Use drugs, make the team and take a chance of being caught

 

I'd like to see frequent random drug tests for all starters on the major college football teams!

[velomoto]

FYI - Check out this article for an interesting read on the effects of various performance enhancing drugs. The part that is relevant to motor sports is how human growth hormone and other drugs can help an athlete turn back the clock by improving eyesight and maintain muscle/strength/power/endurance.

 

Linky to article...

 

Cheers,

Greg

[skinny_tom (aka boney)]

Steroids - how many more will test positive

 

All of 'em.

[rob1100r]

Look at the baseball players from the 70's and 80's compared to now..just watch the replays of games from those times (compared to the last 15 years). ARod from when he started compared to a few years ago...same with Mark McGuire, and many others I can think of...it is pretty obvious. They (baseball) let it happen, so has other sports (I watch hockey and I see the same thing with players size).

[Shaman97]

Steroids - how many more will test positive

 

All of 'em.

 

Which makes it a level playing field. No problem. Spectators are happy, sponsors are happy, agents are happy, beer vendors are happy.

 

So far, Jose Canseco has been the only one telling the whole truth - and he's bankrupt.

 

Want to stop steroid use? One positive test, banned for life. Financial penalty=the past year's earnings, and cancellation of the current contract.

 

 

 

 

[Paul Mihalka]

"human growth hormone and other drugs can help an athlete turn back the clock by improving eyesight and maintain muscle/strength/power/endurance."

 

I'm no athlete but I should try that. It's probably too late anyways...

[tallman]

Steroids - how many more will test positive

 

All of 'em.

 

Which makes it a level playing field. No problem. Spectators are happy, sponsors are happy, agents are happy, beer vendors are happy.

 

So far, Jose Canseco has been the only one telling the whole truth - and he's bankrupt.

 

Want to stop steroid use? One positive test, banned for life. Financial penalty=the past year's earnings, and cancellation of the current contract.

 

 

To "level" the field, with regard to players from the past, I say:

let's raise the mound back up to where it belongs, (the geometry from lowering the mound and advantage it provides a batter is obvious)

let's call the real strike zone (per the wording of the rule book, not some interpretation of what a strike is),

let's move the fences back out,

don't allow the batter to control the pitcher by stepping out of the box and getting an automatic time out

(call the pitch a strike)

if the batter leans over the plate, so be it, call the pitch where it hits 'em ball or strike not a HB and give them first,

limit the number of times a batter can request a time out/delay w/out being penalized a strike,

and finally, bring back the real baseball of years past that wasn't created by Dr. Frankenstein.

 

For those that want to violate the rules in place today, ban them.

 

Oh, and put Pete Rose in the damn HOF.

 

 

[rob1100r]

QUOTE: Oh, and put Pete Rose in the damn HOF.

 

+1

[Deadboy]

Screw Pete Rose, the single best example of the type of self centered thinking that has ruined professional sports.

[Joel]

It is easy to blame individual players, but the finger can also be pointed at MLB and MLBPA: according to ESPN's article on this, A-Fraud was among 104 players (~15% of the players on MLB rosters) who tested positive in 2003, at which time MLB had NO penalties for positive tests. How do you suppose MLB's CBA came to lack penalties for that? W/R/T the substances for which Rodriquez tested positive, it obviously wasn't rocket science.

 

If there's no penalty, but there are huge economic incentives for performance, why shouldn't a player juice? Wouldn't those who didn't be cheating themselves? All these players made their own choices. Over a lifetime, would a decade of steroid use be worse for an individual's health than being obese, or a smoker, or having high cholestrol, or being an alcoholic? I don't condone this, but the outrage over it is overblown, IMO.

 

HGH is an interesting subject. Since it is the current performance enhancer of choice, there is no reliable testing for it, and there's some medical evidence suggesting that its side effects aren't as dangerous as steroids, what will happen next?

[Whip]

It is easy to blame individual players, but the finger can also be pointed at MLB and MLBPA: according to ESPN's article on this, A-Fraud was among 104 players (~15% of the players on MLB rosters) who tested positive in 2003, at which time MLB had NO penalties for positive tests. How do you suppose MLB's CBA came to lack penalties for that? W/R/T the substances for which Rodriquez tested positive, it obviously wasn't rocket science.

 

If there's no penalty, but there are huge economic incentives for performance, why shouldn't a player juice? Wouldn't those who didn't be cheating themselves? All these players made their own choices. Over a lifetime, would a decade of steroid use be worse for an individual's health than being obese, or a smoker, or having high cholestrol, or being an alcoholic? I don't condone this, but the outrage over it is overblown, IMO.

 

HGH is an interesting subject. Since it is the current performance enhancer of choice, there is no reliable testing for it, and there's some medical evidence suggesting that its side effects aren't as dangerous as steroids, what will happen next?

 

Counselor, I concur.

 

Well said.

 

I don't believe in the "level playin field" argument. Ya want everyone that hits a home run to look like the Babe. Come on!!!!

 

The knowledge that athletes have gained in the last century, regarding training and exercise, is amazing. Ya want em all to go back to drinkin beer, chasin skirts, and eatin pizza.

 

 

If Mickey Mantle and the Babe coulda got old of "the juice" what do ya think they woulda done with it?????

 

Forgetaboutit.....

 

Don't give me that BS about setting a good example for the kids either........ya seen MTV lately?????

 

 

Whip

[tallman]

Screw Pete Rose, the single best example of the type of self centered thinking that has ruined professional sports.

 

4256

#1 career base hits

5929

#1 career times on base

 

They do call it base ball, right.

17 time All Star.

Player/mamager, who could do that today?

And I would love to play for a manager who bet on his team to win, with his own money.

Winning is the point in professional sports, right?

Self-centered?

Compared to what standard, from what era?

Today's players?

No way.

Player's from the WWII and Korea era, yes, WRT off the field.

[Deadboy]

Major League Baseball Rule 21 (d); which is posted on the clubhouse of every single Major League Baseball team, which states:

 

Any player, umpire, or club official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has no duty to perform shall be declared ineligible for one year.

 

Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible.

 

And who says he bet on his team to win...

[tallman]

And many would argue that gambling is an addiction, a disease, and as such it deserves the same treatment that MLB gives to those who violate rules on alcohol and drug use.

Won't even go into Rule 3-e, passed in 1991, Rose's first year of HOF eligibility and whether it is comparable to a Bill of Attainder and therefore illegal.

21 (d) was put into effect after the Black Sox scandal, by Landis.

Landis was a racist who kept minorities out of MLB.

He isn't the best of role models for rules.

 

Again, I wish all pro athletes competed w/a winner take all concept.

Pay a small base salary and reward the winners.

Let them bet on their games, everyone else is.

If they throw a game, then ban them for life, not when they bet and play to win.

[Deadboy]

They can argue all they want "why" he gambled, but the rule was pretty darn clear and doesn't need to be changed just because he was a good (great) player. At least some of the steroid users can say they didn't actually violated the rules that were in place when they took them. Don't forget it took him 14 years to even admit he actually did bet on baseball. His refusal to own up for so long is a large part of why he should never make it, but I suspect he will be added quietly after he dies....and I will ask again, how do you know he never bet against his team? If he truly is a compulsive gambler then the need to win a bet would far outweigh everything else, including his team winning any one game.

 

Your comment about Landis is hard to understand, are you saying because he was a racist the rule is somehow unclear or undermined? The rule stands alone and should apply to all pro sports. It has been in place for a long long time, if the players union wanted to challenge it they have had ample opportunity to do so....

[chrisd]

A manager who only bets on his team to win is not on high moral ground. Betting on his team to win could prove detrimental to the team over the course of a season, or longer. If a manager has a bet on tonight's game, it's in his best interest to have his best players in the game for as long as the game lasts. But what if his reliever is tired because he's pitched in the last three games? What if his star outfielder's shoulder is acting up? Depending on circumstances, they both might very well sit out tonight's game. But most likely not if there are thousands riding on it. Did Rose sacrifice his better judgment so he could win his bets? Winning each game is not a realistic goal of a baseball team. Winning each game that a manager bets on is, and damn the consequences.

[Lets_Play_Two]

I believe, like every other endeavor that seeks to first place blame rather than deal with the issue, sports should forget about who did what when. Fans will add their own asterisks. As some one said, make the use of performance enhancing drugs subject to a very severe punishment. I would suggest at least a one year ban will put teeth in the policy and make athletes think at least twice before using them. Second infraction and your career is over!!

[Rinkydink]

Amen, Tallman, but can we add delay of game also. So freeking slow...

 

 

Oh and while we're at it raise the NBA goal to 13 feet. You're 7 ft. tall and you can dunk, whoopdy doo.

[Matts_12GS]

Screw Pete Rose, the single best example of the type of self centered thinking that has ruined professional sports.

 

Well said Nick... Pete Rose ruined baseball for me for the better part of decades. Besides, he's already there...

 

I hope AFraud winds up with saggy Barry Bonds style ManBoobs so big he can't drive his car...

 

Rules be rules, you spin the wheel you take your chances.

 

If the MLBPA, or hell, any of the Pro Sports PA had any balls and wanted to actually fix this they could do easily by making a positive worth 1 year's pay at current contract, or else factor the league minimum as the penalty. Say you've been in the league 10 years and have 10 year 250Million dollar contract and you pop positive for ANYTHING (weed, coke, HGH, high cholesterol.... whatever). Then you get to pay back one year's cabbage, approx $25million dollars.

 

I'd add in a clause that for some number of years AFTER the big penalty you can't earn more than the league minimum.

 

 

[Deadboy]

A manager who only bets on his team to win is not on high moral ground. Betting on his team to win could prove detrimental to the team over the course of a season, or longer. If a manager has a bet on tonight's game, it's in his best interest to have his best players in the game for as long as the game lasts. But what if his reliever is tired because he's pitched in the last three games? What if his star outfielder's shoulder is acting up? Depending on circumstances, they both might very well sit out tonight's game. But most likely not if there are thousands riding on it. Did Rose sacrifice his better judgment so he could win his bets? Winning each game is not a realistic goal of a baseball team. Winning each game that a manager bets on is, and damn the consequences.

 

Excellent point and not one I had even considered.

[tallman]

My point about Landis is that he brought in the rule only after the scandal to try and regain public confidence.

Where was his moral/ethical stand before that?

And, because of his extreme racist behavior, any rule promulgated by "the Mountain" pertaining to conduct is suspect IMO.

 

There is no evidence Pette Rose ever bet on any game involving his team.

He admits betting on other games.

Now the NBA has officials fixing games and changing outcomes.

Should we throw out all the stats from those multiple years of misconduct?

If it happened in basketball, why should I believe it hasn't happened in other sports?

If MLB is so high and mighty WRT gambling, why is there legal gambling available on the games?

He broke the rule, he is banned, and probably will be forever unless a Vet's commitee votes him in (unlikely).

I think his performance on the field (untainted by performance enhancing drugs) speaks for itself and I shudder to think that performance enhanced cheats may get in the HOF yet he won't.

That to me is wrong in an era when governors of states wager (gamble/bet) on the outcome of bowl games and other athletic events.

The world of the Black Sox and the part gambling played in it is very different from the world of today, the money involved in sports, and the role gambling plays in Society today.

BTW, the over/under for posts on this thread is 52.

[Huzband]

My point about Landis is that he brought in the rule only after the scandal to try and regain public confidence.

Where was his moral/ethical stand before that?

And, because of his extreme racist behavior, any rule promulgated by "the Mountain" pertaining to conduct is suspect IMO.

 

There is no evidence Pette Rose ever bet on any game involving his team.

He admits betting on other games.

Now the NBA has officials fixing games and changing outcomes.

Should we throw out all the stats from those multiple years of misconduct?

If it happened in basketball, why should I believe it hasn't happened in other sports?

If MLB is so high and mighty WRT gambling, why is there legal gambling available on the games?

He broke the rule, he is banned, and probably will be forever unless a Vet's commitee votes him in (unlikely).

I think his performance on the field (untainted by performance enhancing drugs) speaks for itself and I shudder to think that performance enhanced cheats may get in the HOF yet he won't.

That to me is wrong in an era when governors of states wager (gamble/bet) on the outcome of bowl games and other athletic events.

The world of the Black Sox and the part gambling played in it is very different from the world of today, the money involved in sports, and the role gambling plays in Society today.

BTW, the over/under for posts on this thread is 52.

 

Where there are men without values, there so will be corruption.

 

I fear as sports go, so goes our country.

[Deadboy]

The Hall of Fame is an honor not a right.

 

Lets say you are correct and he didn't bet against his team (or for them) but instead he knew that tomorrow nights game between two other teams would be different if he did a certain thing in tonight's game when his team was playing one of the two teams that were playing tomorrow night....

 

Their are simply too many way for him to have a direct impact on the outcome of games for his behavior to be ignored or forgotten....Shoeless Joe Jackson was banned from baseball for life simply because he knew that the World Series was fixed but did not report on his teammates.

 

As for the ref's in the NBA, ban them for life (and send em to jail) but don't punish the players for their actions.

 

[Lets_Play_Two]

Where there are men without values, there so will be corruption.

 

I fear as sports go, so goes our country.

 

My guess is that you have that backward. The problems in sports are simply a reflection of the society.

[tallman]

The Hall of Fame is an honor not a right.

 

Lets say you are correct and he didn't bet against his team (or for them) but instead he knew that tomorrow nights game between two other teams would be different if he did a certain thing in tonight's game when his team was playing one of the two teams that were playing tomorrow night....

 

Their are simply too many way for him to have a direct impact on the outcome of games for his behavior to be ignored or forgotten....Shoeless Joe Jackson was banned from baseball for life simply because he knew that the World Series was fixed but did not report on his teammates.

As for the ref's in the NBA, ban them for life (and send em to jail) but don't punish the players for their actions.

 

Direct impact?

Yes.

'Two for 4 2 runs scored, in his first game as player/manager.

A .525% (career) W/L record, higher than the 2 1/2 years prior to his promotion.

That is almost the same as LaSorda (.526) and ahead of Dusty Baker, Lou Piniella, Jerry Manuel, Case Stengel, Cito Gaston, just to name a few modern era managers and Casey's including the years w/the Amazins.

So the team actually won more games than they had the previous years.

Hard to see how he was intentionally trying to lose games.

Baseball is a game that can be influenced in so many subtle ways.

Swinging at a bad pitch, taking a third strike, calling a fastball instead of a slider, etc.

The Reds finished 3rd, 6th, 6th, 5th, in the four years prior to Rose managing them and 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 2nd, 5th, with him.

The next year Lou Piniella won the division but the team then went 5th, 2nd, 5th, in the next three seasons.

Rose's record is more consistent than the other managers of the same era so it seems implausible he did this whilst manipulating outcomes based on his bets.

Rose ranks high in the Pantheon of the game.

This quote is from a Cincinnatti writer. Stats are for performance in Cincy, don't include Philly or

"Pete Rose - Arguably the best hitter of all-time, Rose is not in the baseball Hall of Fame. Say what you want, but Rose deserves his place in the HOF and is still a beloved figure in Cincinnati. Of his record 4,256 hits, 3,358 came in a Cincinnati uniform (1st all-time for the Reds) along with 601 doubles (1st), 115 triples (4th), 1,036 RBI (4th), 1,210 walks (1st), .379 OBP (4th) and a .307 batting average (10th all-time for the Reds). Rose was the 1963 NL Rookie of the Year, 1973 NL MVP, a 2-time Gold Glove Award winner, 17-time All-Star and the 1975 Sports Illustrated Sportsman of the Year."

Rose did bet on his team, to win, my mistake.

Probably as many as 50 times.

He won two World Series and is the only living player on the ineligible for HOF list.

It has been 20 years.

I say, time served, let him in.

 

[velomoto]

Tallman - well said and agreed! Perhaps the HOF could induct him for his accomplishments as a player, but also include something about his later mistakes as a manager? However politics are politics and I expect MLB sees this a larger issue than performance enhancing drugs...

 

Any of the experts out there know what the NCAA does in the way of testing? Looking at the size of the players of some of the football teams I'm guessin' the athletes are getting more than just vitamins with their meals!

 

Regarding the "level playing field argument" for accepting the use of drugs - i don't buy this for two reasons:

1. Sports should be won by the best athlete, not the best pharmacist/doctor. If you allow performance enhancing drugs do you limit the quantity and if so how do you test to ensure compliance?

 

2. All of these drugs have harmful, sometimes deadly, side effects. Like other forms of training, athletes will push the edge of the amount of a drug they can use to get an advantage. With the right cocktail of steroids, testosterone, HGH and EPO an athlete can train much-much harder and then go clean during the taper period leading to a "major event" such as pre-season tryouts or the Tour de France. Pro cyclists already discovered this technique and went so far as to have a doctor transfuse "clean blood" to prevent the drugs used during training to show up in a random test. This is but one example showing the need for random testing of pro athletes. BTW, the salary for an average pro cyclist is minuscule compared to that of one in the NFL, NBA or MLB. Thus I'd expect the temptation, and ability, to use performance enhancing drugs in these sports would be much higher.

 

My preference would be to have a second chance rule in all the major sports with random tests beginning three months before spring training, AND at number of random tests will be at least three times the total number of athletes in the sport. Thus if MLB has 1200 players then there will be at least 3600 tests performed that year. Depending upon the sport players should be subject to non-random tests after winning. The first time a player tests positive for a drug, or a banned "masking drug", then they should be suspended for at least one year. The second positive test should be a lifetime ban.

 

[tallman]

NCAA tests a bunch.

NCAA testing

For illegal and performance enhancing.

Not saying there isn't abuse, but most of the football players are given excellent nutrition and workout options that maximize their physical development.

The strength, conditioning, nutrition information and applications are incredible compared to "back in the day".

 

Remember the '84 Olympics.

USA cycling won gold, but the team blood packed (legal at the time).

 

Many of the early steroid users have paid a toll for their

choice. Death, impotence, was it worth it?

Lyle Azado

 

 

[SeanC]

I dislike the whole HOF concept, especially as it relates to team sports. Records (and actions, both on the field and off) speak for themselves, so I say burn all the halls of fame to the ground.

 

Regarding PE drug use, pro cycling suspends first-time offenders from competition for two years, which seems like a fair penalty that all sports should adopt. Second offenses should result in lifetime bans.

[Shaman97]

The 'level playing field' comment was a somewhat tongue-in-cheek statement, referring to the issue that pitchers have been just as guilty of PE use as hitters have. If memory serves, there have been more pitchers suspended in professional baseball (minor and MLB) than fielders. This isn't too surprising, given that the substances allow for a quicker recovery time, and that there are more pitchers on a team than any other single position.

 

But on a somewhat similar note - let's evaluate the conduct of the union leadership in this whole steroids debacle. First, they don't want testing, then they agree to testing if the names are kept confidential, then after the dirty players are discovered, they don't ensure the list of dirty players is destroyed. WTF? The MLBPA, led by Gene Orza and Donald Fehr have gone too far, and messed it up all along the way.

 

Maybe Congress should look at removing MLB's anti-trust exemption, and allow the league to operate as any other business is allowed to.

[Firefight911]

Maybe Congress should look at removing MLB's anti-trust exemption, and allow the league to operate as any other business is allowed to.

 

Maybe they'll go on strike . . . again, and finish themselves off once and for all.

[casticus]

How do you handle the possibility of false positives? Just to play devil's advocate...