Red light camera tickets

[Lawman]

I've googled it to no avil so now I want to hear from the place where there is no question that can't be answered..

 

Everyone except those who profit from them know that red light tickets issued as a result of a picture are b.s.

My question involves enforcement..I understand that practices vary widely depending on jurisdiction but it seems to me there are some constitutional issues that would be the same regardless of jurisdiction. I would like to hear from some who have received them and ignored them. As far as I know they are treated as civil infractions most everywhere and enforcement would have to pursue from that standpoint. In the real world if one is ignored and the system works through until the matter is disposed of what would the steps/penalties look like? I don't understand how (in reality)civil penalties of $100.00 or less are enforced..

[AZKomet]

Just yesterday a west Phx JP has declared the cites unconstitutional. Throwing out hundreds in his court and vowing to do more of them as they come in.

 

The issue seems to be that service is invalid and the fine structure imposed. And it is true that many attorneys here have publicly said to ignore them if received in the mail. Rules of civil and criminal procedures are clear on service by a LEO in the fight about all this here.

 

The MVD says it can take administrative action against you license and plate if the fine is not paid. A fight over that is looming. A house bill is being set forth on the issue of the cameras are illegal and will be removed from the freeways if passed. Those are speed cameras and not the red light cameras in and around the metro area.

 

Due process is at issue here. Clearly some judiciaries are against them. We shall see. Hope this helps. Why do you ask???

[Lawman]

Why do you ask???

 

Because it smacks of an unfair and abusive government that should not be tolerated by free people.

[Damean]

I got a red light ticket mailed to me from when I was in New Orleans this Christmas. All it shows is the back of my vehicle, it does not show me driving it. Seeing that it is several states away, I plan to ignore it as long as I can.

 

"Because it smacks of an unfair and abusive government that should not be tolerated by free people." Could not have said it better, Lawman. This is one of those instances where I would pay a lawyer many times more than the cost of the ticket just on principle.

[Matts_12GS]

Why do you ask???

 

Because it smacks of an unfair and abusive government that should not be tolerated by free people.

 

And Lord knows we don't have enough of those these days....

[Dave McReynolds]

I'm surprised that motorcyclists in general wouldn't be in favor of red light cameras out of self-preservation, if for no other reason, considering the number of motorcyclists who get nailed by cars running red lights. Granted, if the red light cameras are incorrectly set just to generate revenue, that's a problem, but that's a different issue. Sort of like wanting to do away with all traffic enforcement LEO's because a few may be crooked.

 

We motorcyclists like to speed and get away with it, so I can understand our opposition to speeding cameras, but I'm not aware of many motorcyclists who get any thrill out of running red lights. Maybe because those who do aren't around very long.

[SeanC]

Surprisingly, I support red light cameras too. Intersections are kill zones, and I believe the enforcement needs to be strict.

[upflying]

Speed and red light camera's are not used much here in NorCal. SF and Union City are two local jurisdictions that use them. Could be others that I am not aware of.

My problem with traffic enforcement cameras is the inability to cross examine the witness. In normal traffic cases, that's the officer who saw you commit the violation. How do you question a camera in court? It boils down to the lack of due process and a violation of your constitutional rights.

If it comes down to identifying the driver, how do you identify a motorcycle rider wearing a full face helmet? Case dismissed!!!

[CoarsegoldKid]

Fresno, CA had red light cameras at some intersections in 2005. They are gone now. Don't know why actually. Now they do fine heavily I understand. Fresno is a bad place to ride so I don't take the bike into town. The motor LEOs do a fine job of getting red light runners at the biggest offending intersections. I see a lot of pull overs a block or so beyond the light.

[Dave McReynolds]

Speed and red light camera's are not used much here in NorCal. SF and Union City are two local jurisdictions that use them. Could be others that I am not aware of.

My problem with traffic enforcement cameras is the inability to cross examine the witness. In normal traffic cases, that's the officer who saw you commit the violation. How do you question a camera in court? It boils down to the lack of due process and a violation of your constitutional rights.

If it comes down to identifying the driver, how do you identify a motorcycle rider wearing a full face helmet? Case dismissed!!!

 

There was one time when I was definitely glad a LEO saw me and not a red light camera. I was caught out in the middle of an intersection when a truck stopped in front of me, not because traffic was backed up, but for some other reason I couldn't figure out. I had thought when I entered the intersection the traffic would keep flowing. The LEO understood and I didn't get a ticket; the red light camera wouldn't have cared. But I do believe the increase in public safety from the legitimate use of red light cameras offsets the impersonality of it all. Maybe the judge would have been just as understanding as the LEO, although I would have hated to have had to go to court. Maybe people should be responsible for the fines regardless of who was driving their cars; maybe they should be more careful who they loan their cars to.

 

I realize when I'm making these arguments that I wouldn't have any counter-argument if the same reasoning were applied to speeding cameras. I guess I'd just have to try to figure out where they were and avoid speeding in those areas!

[Lawman]

[

Maybe people should be responsible for the fines regardless of who was driving their cars; maybe they should be more careful who they loan their cars to.

 

 

Give that line of reasoning a little more thought and then tell me if you really believe that..

[smiller]

I don't think the issue is whether red-light violations should be strictly enforced (certainly we all agree there), but whether the end justifies the means. No doubt more criminals could be brought to justice if we threw out some Constitutional protections but I doubt many would agree to take it that far regardless of the 'upside.' Evidence must be collected legally and you have a right to question that evidence and your accuser in court. If any of those elements are absent then you can't be prosecuted and the state needs to find another way to solve the problem, period. There is no halfway point.

[Whip]

I got one. It shows a truck registered to me stopped at a red light and a van running the red light next to the truck registered to me in the middle of the intersect. The person driving the truck was not supposed to be in Killeen TX at the time with the truck so I made him pay........I would not have paid.

[tallman]

Deja threadvu

 

Previous thread with lots of red light chatter

[tobyzusa]

[

Maybe people should be responsible for the fines regardless of who was driving their cars; maybe they should be more careful who they loan their cars to.

 

 

Give that line of reasoning a little more thought and then tell me if you really believe that..

 

I got one mailed to me (the registered owner) from Lubbock, TX. The web site had stills and a video. My son deserved that ticket and yes, he got to pay it.

[AZKomet]

I'm surprised that motorcyclists in general wouldn't be in favor of red light cameras out of self-preservation, if for no other reason, considering the number of motorcyclists who get nailed by cars running red lights. Granted, if the red light cameras are incorrectly set just to generate revenue, that's a problem, but that's a different issue. Sort of like wanting to do away with all traffic enforcement LEO's because a few may be crooked.

 

We motorcyclists like to speed and get away with it, so I can understand our opposition to speeding cameras, but I'm not aware of many motorcyclists who get any thrill out of running red lights. Maybe because those who do aren't around very long.

 

 

They do very little in terms of safety. The freeway speed cameras were well advertised for months in the paper, TV, radio and PSA's here in Phx. Even now there are signs saying the cameras are in use and 1/2 mile away and then 300 ft away etc.....They went off more than 145,000 times in one month after being turned on......Same with the red light cameras. They go off all the time here. So I am going have to differ with you on that.

 

Revenue has been the leading factor here....it has been mentioned more times than safety by our now long gone gov. who is now rubbing elbows with Obama.

 

The rule for violators and criminals are: They are not willing to do any more than they are willing to be punished for. So speed, red lights, DUI or even murder....doesn't matter. People do what they do.....

[eddd]

In the area where I live, red lights are routinely ignored, sometimes by several cars. Enforcement is nearly non-existent.

 

If a light changes as I approach I always take a quick look at the vehicles following me. I've run a few lights where I could have easily stopped, but not safely stopped due to vehicles behind me bent on making that light.

 

A red light camera would just see me as a traffic violator.

[onmyrt]

In the area where I live, red lights are routinely ignored, sometimes by several cars. Enforcement is nearly non-existent.

 

It's the same here where I live, but, I think the $200 fine that accompanies the ticket will get their attention real quick.

 

It all boils down to accountability.

[waylap]

If you ignore the ticket, it will be impossible to re-register your car when the plate expires.

Most systems have a speed sensor in the pavement which will record a vehicle traveling above a set speed, lets say 15 mph when the light turns red. IF the vehicle is BEHIND the stop bar traveling at greater than (15 mph)(when the light turns red) it will take another photo (presumably with that same vehicle now past the stop bar- going through a red light. The speed requirement is there so it's not snapping pictures and violations being examined simply for people who ARE stopping but travel just over the bar. NO points are assessed because an LEO did not personally witness it- but most jurisdictions require an LEO to examine the photo evidence before sending the ticket. (Two photos needed - one before the stop bar and one after the stop bar)

[Selden]

Reviving an old thread with new information. An Atlanta TV station did a pretty good piece of investigative reporting this spring.

 

http://www.11alive.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=143717&catid=3

http://www.11alive.com/redlight/

 

I dumped the numbers into a spreadsheet and was surprised that the average reduction in accidents was only 6% (worst +41% best -82%). I'm still in favor of red light cameras, but only if the yellow is for at least 5 seconds -- which was almost never the case in this study. But, I have to admit, the data don't appear to show that longer yellow leads to fewer accidents.

 

[Harry_Wilshusen]

Reviving an old thread with new information. An Atlanta TV station did a pretty good piece of investigative reporting this spring.

 

http://www.11alive.com/news/local/story.aspx?storyid=143717&catid=3

http://www.11alive.com/redlight/

 

I dumped the numbers into a spreadsheet and was surprised that the average reduction in accidents was only 6% (worst +41% best -82%). I'm still in favor of red light cameras, but only if the yellow is for at least 5 seconds -- which was almost never the case in this study. But, I have to admit, the data don't appear to show that longer yellow leads to fewer accidents.

 

However longer yellow lights do result in sewer tickets.

[Selden]

However longer yellow lights do result in sewer tickets.

Only if they get flushed.

[Ken H.]

I think, paradoxically, there are not enough of them (red light cameras) in most cities. Municipalities that only put up one or two at key problem intersections don’t have enough of an overall effect to cause behavior modification. Drivers who routinely run lights by and large continue to do so because most of the time at most intersections (no camera) they get away with it. And even if they do get caught at that one intersection that has a camera; it’s just one of those little annoyances in life.

 

OTOH here they are at virtually every 4-lane intersection. After getting three or four of those darn $50 things in the mail month after month, it starts to add up to real money and as a result people catch on to clean up their act much faster.

 

More and more of them here are also being converted to ‘speed through on yellow’ cameras. Which I think can help combat the on red problem if people know they will also get a ticket in the mail if they try to speed up to ‘make the yellow.’

 

T-boned accidents are one of the most fatal kind, any effort to reduce runners I’m in favor of.

 

This link was posted in a Riding Well thread, if it doesn't sober one up to the issue, nothing will - Red Light Camera Footage

 

 

 

 

[upflying]

The City of Burlingame is getting rid of their camera. Too expensive to operate.

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_15155571?nclick_check=1

[Lawman]

The City of Burlingame is getting rid of their camera. Too expensive to operate.

http://www.mercurynews.com/ci_15155571?nclick_check=1

 

"Acting Police Chief Ed Wood said the camera was too expensive to keep and that it was not catching as many red-light runners as officials expected."

 

But I thought it was all about safety..Now it seems they are working too good....

 

 

[Lawman]

any effort to reduce runners I’m in favor of.

 

 

Yeah who cares that it targets owners instead of operators..I've always felt that if a law is broken someone needs to pay regardless of who it is..

[Ken H.]

any effort to reduce runners I’m in favor of.

Yeah who cares that it targets owners instead of operators..I've always felt that if a law is broken someone needs to pay regardless of who it is..

It’s a matter of mindset. In many areas of the world the owner of a vehicle is responsible for the proper operation of it. If it wasn’t he/she that was operating it illegally, the onus is on them to show who was, but they are still responsible for its legal operation. A concept that is foreign in the USA I realize. More along the lines of product liability precedent.

[Rogue_Trader]

I think, paradoxically, there are not enough of them (red light cameras) in most cities. Municipalities that only put up one or two at key problem intersections don’t have enough of an overall effect to cause behavior modification. Drivers who routinely run lights by and large continue to do so because most of the time at most intersections (no camera) they get away with it. And even if they do get caught at that one intersection that has a camera; it’s just one of those little annoyances in life.

 

OTOH here they are at virtually every 4-lane intersection. After getting three or four of those darn $50 things in the mail month after month, it starts to add up to real money and as a result people catch on to clean up their act much faster.

 

More and more of them here are also being converted to ‘speed through on yellow’ cameras. Which I think can help combat the on red problem if people know they will also get a ticket in the mail if they try to speed up to ‘make the yellow.’

 

T-boned accidents are one of the most fatal kind, any effort to reduce runners I’m in favor of.

 

This link was posted in a Riding Well thread, if it doesn't sober one up to the issue, nothing will - Red Light Camera Footage

 

 

 

Watching this clip was a jaw-dropping experience for me.

 

That being said, I don't think receiving a piece of paper (the ticket) in the mail a month later would even register on the consciousness of one of these jokers. There is a dynamic happening here which is different than just a traffic violation...these people are playing Russian Roulette with a gun pointing not only at themselves, but at innocents as well. Drugs, alcohol, who knows?

 

Being collared by a not-to-happy LEO on the spot might provide the immediate negative experience required to have a hope of deterrence.

 

For those of you who may not be aware, many of these programs are sold to the municipalities by private firms who front the cost of the system, then get a large cut of the fines levied as a result. The motivation is stark "revenue enhancement", not enforcement or deterrence. Better think again if you were thinking this was an altruistic thing.

 

To me, this methodology smacks of "big brother" at best, and a totalitarian state if taken to the extreme.

[Harry_Wilshusen]

However longer yellow lights do result in sewer tickets.

Only if they get flushed.

 

As they should be!

 

Harry

 

[KarlS]

Of course it raises revenue. Which city doesn't need more revenue.

 

Would we rather that cities raise taxes to pay for services or count on the volunters who run red lights and speed to pay for municipal operations.

 

I like those volunters.

 

Karl

[Lawman]

Of course it raises revenue. Which city doesn't need more revenue.

 

Would we rather that cities raise taxes to pay for services or count on the volunters who run red lights and speed to pay for municipal operations.

 

I like those volunters.

 

Karl

 

I would prefer that people be treated fairly..

[Harry_Wilshusen]

Of course it raises revenue. Which city doesn't need more revenue.

 

Would we rather that cities raise taxes to pay for services or count on the volunters who run red lights and speed to pay for municipal operations.

 

I like those volunters.

 

Karl

 

Ah yes, let someone else pay for my benefits.

 

Do we really want our LEOs viewed with the same love as IRS agents?

 

When politicians create a safety hazard (shorten yellow lights) in order to enhance revenues all of the law enforcement community suffers in the eye of the public.

 

Harry