wheel torque spec and anti seize

[Louisianaman]

i recall a post that indicated no anti seize is to be used when re-installing wheel. can someone please confirm and also provide spec for torque front and rear?

[hootowl]

i recall a post that indicated no anti seize is to be used when re-installing wheel. can someone please confirm and also provide spec for torque front and rear?

 

NO ANTI-SEIZE!

 

Rear wheel bolts:

initial 50NM or 37 ft/lb; final 105NM or 77 ft/lb.

 

Front wheel:

Axle bolt 30NM or 22 ft/lb

Pinch bolts 22NM or 16 ft/lb

 

After tightening the axle bolt take the bike off the center stand and apply the front brake. Pump the suspension up & down several times and then tighten the pinch bolts

[Global_Rider]

NO ANTI-SEIZE!

 

But do GREASE the front axle and spacer that lies between the bearings within the wheel.

 

If those two ever seize due to rust, it can make removing the axle a serious problem.

[Blue Beemer Dude]

i recall a post that indicated no anti seize is to be used when re-installing wheel.

 

NO ANTI-SEIZE!

 

So, why not? I (prefer) to never assemble anything without it, unless it requires threadlock. I assume that it alters the torque readings a bit, but I haven't had a wheel fall off, recently. Any other reasons?

 

Michael

[Louisianaman]

thanks. i wanted to make sure my mechanic had the right poop before we started this project.

[Ted]

The torque specs are for clean, dry threads - that's why no anti-seize here.

[smiller]

I assume that it alters the torque readings a bit

 

It will alter the torque readings a lot, causing overtightening.

[DavidEBSmith]

It will alter the torque readings a lot, causing overtightening.

 

One of my co-workers just found this out when putting the engine back in his F650 Dakar. Putting in one of the last bolts, he set his torque wrench to the proper 100 nM, put some anti-seize on the bolt, tightened it up and broke it off. Now the engine has to come back out of the bike so he can remove the broken bolt.

 

The good news is that the broken bolt probably won't be seized in place.

[Greg Poole]

Do NOT use any anti-seize on the rear wheel bolts. There is a thread over on AdvRider.com where one of the guys put anti-seize on the bolts of his rear wheel. A few hundred miles down the road, he noticed a wobble on the rear wheel. Turns out all of the bolts had loosened and he was about to lose the rear wheel. This is not a good thing to have happen to you.

 

Turns out a few other guys had done the same thing with their rear wheel bolts, all finally admitting to the same outcome. We'd like to keep you around here posting and not have to see you in the hospital or worse.

[Blue Beemer Dude]

If I remember tonight, I'll pull off the bolts and check to make sure that I didn't do that... if I did, I'll clean them and reapply and retorque.

 

However, I gotta wonder how much of this is just urban legend... on one hand, I've got some people saying that the torque will be too high, and I could snap the bolts... and on the other hand, the torque will be too low and the bolts will fall out.

 

I've been putting anti-seize on just about everything since I was a little boy, and I've never lost a bolt or nut yet. OK, OK, there was that one time, but it was because the wheel was hot when I torqued down the nuts (race car). Wheel cools, shrinks, nuts get loose...

 

Michael "Mr. Anti-Seize"

[nrp]

Maybe us anti-sieze guys just have to torque to a lower value and check the bolts a little more often.

 

Somehow given the comparatively fine thread of metric fasteners, depending on a dry thread to keep things together seems a little crude. Surely the bolt preloads will not be as consistent without anti-sieze.

[smiller]

Maybe us anti-sieze guys just have to torque to a lower value and check the bolts a little more often.

 

Or... just stop using anti-seize, which doesn't belong on wheel lug nuts or bolts?

[Marty Hill]

They don't want to hear that...good luck and god speed.

[Global_Rider]

Putting in one of the last bolts, he set his torque wrench to the proper 100 nM, put some anti-seize on the bolt, tightened it up and broke it off.

 

That is 74 lbf.ft.

 

What in an engine is torqued to that spec other than maybe a magneto nut or clutch basket nut...any of those fasteners are high grade and can take a lot.

 

I doubt it was the anti-seize. More like a faulty fastener.

[Global_Rider]

Do NOT use any anti-seize on the rear wheel bolts. There is a thread over on AdvRider.com where one of the guys put anti-seize on the bolts of his rear wheel. A few hundred miles down the road, he noticed a wobble on the rear wheel. Turns out all of the bolts had loosened and he was about to lose the rear wheel.

 

Well since it has never happened to me, I can only assume they weren't tightened properly in the first place.

 

I grease the wheel nuts on my car. In fact the spec is 80 lbf.ft. and I torque mine to 65 lbf.ft. due to the grease. Never have they loosened or snapped off in 30+ years of doing so.

 

I do the same to my BMWs. Wheels are still on.

[Rich06FJR1300]

also have to wonder how much they put on as well...are they dipping the entire thread portion of the bolt with anti-sieze and putting it on? I just put a "little dab will do ya" on the one section of the threads...works for me.

[No_Twilight]

[quote

So, why not? I (prefer) to never assemble anything without it, unless it requires threadlock. I assume that it alters the torque readings a bit, but I haven't had a wheel fall off, recently. Any other reasons?

 

Michael

 

Michael,

I was the guy who supported the antiseise. I'm a professional engineer, mechanical, registered in CA and I'm with you. All such joints should have antiseise or loctite in my opinion. I think BMW requires no antiseiseor lubricant because it is too easy for a junior mechanic to use too much and have it sling onto the brakes. In fact, I did this when I first tried it on my car, years ago, but it didn't get on the brakes.

 

Another concern by others was that with antiseise (as a lubricant) the torque value would be too high. If this is a concern to you, reduce the torque by 10%.

 

My main concern is that a galled or otherwise damaged thread will be very loose at the specified torque. I've seen lugnuts that were totally loose because the threads were bad. I saw a car drive into a gas station once with all the lugbolt holes wallowed out until the wheel was wobbling around like a potato chip because the corroded lugnuts didn't get tight. I don't think our bikes would ever get that bad. I use a high quality nickel antiseise and I put it on very lightly. If i get too much, I wipe it off before assembly.

 

Those of you who prefer not to use antiseise, just keep your threads clean and free of corrosion, and you'll be ok. i would consider cleaning them with a wire brush occasionally.

 

Cheers,

Jerry

[No_Twilight]

Do NOT use any anti-seize on the rear wheel bolts. There is a thread over on AdvRider.com where one of the guys put anti-seize on the bolts of his rear wheel. A few hundred miles down the road, he noticed a wobble on the rear wheel. Turns out all of the bolts had loosened and he was about to lose the rear wheel.

 

Sorry, but this is hogwash. The tension on the studs holds them in place, not friction. If it backs out, it wasn't stretched. No matter what your other concerns with antiseise, backing out of lubricated studs is can not be a legitimate concern. If his studs were loose, the more likely explanation is that they were never tightened because he had let them get corroded before he decided antiseise would be a good idea. Just to be clear, the problem occurs when the stud gets corroded and the specified torque (75 or so ft lbs) is all used up just overcoming the friction from the corrosion and there is nothing left to stretch the stud against the wheel.

 

Cheers,

Jerry

[Blue Beemer Dude]

I feel better. Thanks Jerry, Rich, GlobalDude.

 

I really don't worry so much about torquing wheels properly anyway, especially on the car. Heck, when the manufacturer calls for 80 ft/pds and the guy who couldn't finish high school working at the tire place whacks it with his impact wrench for 10 seconds on high, he's putting about twice that on there and the wheels still don't crack or the bolts get distended, then I guess they are over-engineered enough to take it even if someone comes along with a really badly punctuated run-on sentence and posts about it...

 

I appreciate that people post these warnings because they honestly think that we are putting ourselves in danger.

 

Michael

[Tool Man]

I also support the use of anti-sieze on all non similar materials. With the exception of s/s...which is the worst for galling threads.

 

Those who drench their bikes while washing and not blowing the water out of water trapping areas, rear wheel, brake calipers etc. it's only a matter of time until corrosion sets in. Stranded on a road at night with a flat,and ya don't have a deadblow hammer to remove the rear wheel? One of our members witnessed this himself as we struggled to remove his rear wheel, on a lift with the correct tools. To teach him a lesson I sat him down with a hand wire brush to clean lug bolts for awhile until I showed him the bead blast cabinet.

 

I fix/repair so many stripped out threads and broken bolts mostly due to corrosion, monkey arm, torque wrenches, and non expereienced mechanics I could by a new RT.

 

The most common is the valve cover bolt. Gee it's leaking maybe a little tighter....tink....oh $hit.

 

It's a shoulder bolt.....do'oh.

 

People tend to over do alot of things....if some is good more is better....wrong. You see it with gasket sealer all the time. Same thing with Anti-Seize....just a dab with a swab will do the job.

 

 

Do what you want, believe in or what Billy Bob says. But if you do enough wrenching, sooner or later you'll be seeing a machinst to repair rusted damaged threads. Who do you think the dealer tech's get to fix a customers Whizzer.....you do remember the Whizzer don't you??

[Global_Rider]

Do NOT use any anti-seize on the rear wheel bolts. There is a thread over on AdvRider.com where one of the guys put anti-seize on the bolts of his rear wheel. A few hundred miles down the road, he noticed a wobble on the rear wheel. Turns out all of the bolts had loosened and he was about to lose the rear wheel.

 

Sorry, but this is hogwash. The tension on the studs holds them in place, not friction. If it backs out, it wasn't stretched. No matter what your other concerns with antiseise, backing out of lubricated studs is can not be a legitimate concern. If his studs were loose, the more likely explanation is that they were never tightened because he had let them get corroded before he decided antiseise would be a good idea. Just to be clear, the problem occurs when the stud gets corroded and the specified torque (75 or so ft lbs) is all used up just overcoming the friction from the corrosion and there is nothing left to stretch the stud against the wheel.

 

Cheers,

Jerry

 

Hey, what are you telling me for? I never posted the comments above your response.

 

I'm not the one that ends up with loose wheel bolts even though I grease mine.

[No_Twilight]

 

I really don't worry so much about torquing wheels properly anyway, especially on the car. Heck, when the manufacturer calls for 80 ft/pds and the guy who couldn't finish high school working at the tire place whacks it with his impact wrench for 10 seconds on high, he's putting about twice that on there and the wheels still don't crack or the bolts get distended, then I guess they are over-engineered enough to take it even if someone comes along with a really badly punctuated run-on sentence and posts about it...

 

Michael

 

Michael,

yep, the guy with the impact wrench has overtorqued just about every lug bolt at least once. And this is the logic I use not to worry about the 10% more tension that I get with the antiseise. But I would think about using a torque wrench on the car if you have aluminum wheels. The torque spec is more to protect the wheels than the bolts/studs/nuts. The bolts generally can take more than the spec by quite a bit but overtorquing repeatedly will damage the hole area of your wheels. If you have steel wheels, you'll be fine. Remember that for many years with steel wheels manufacturers didn't ever provide a torque spec.

 

Cheers,

Jerry

[smiller]

And this is the logic I use not to worry about the 10% more tension that I get with the antiseise.

 

Wondering where you obtained the 10% figure? All of my searches for this information have indicated a torque reduction of at least double this amount, and sometimes more.

[Pilgrim]

 

Sorry, but this is hogwash. The tension on the studs holds them in place, not friction. If it backs out, it wasn't stretched. No matter what your other concerns with antiseise, backing out of lubricated studs is can not be a legitimate concern. If his studs were loose, the more likely explanation is that they were never tightened because he had let them get corroded before he decided antiseise would be a good idea. Just to be clear, the problem occurs when the stud gets corroded and the specified torque (75 or so ft lbs) is all used up just overcoming the friction from the corrosion and there is nothing left to stretch the stud against the wheel.

 

Cheers,

Jerry

 

Jerry, as an engineer you know that without friction there is no mechanical resistance to movement. Yes, threads stretch the bolt and it tries to pull back, loading the threads, but were there zero friction (as a theoretical concept cited for clarity) they bolt would rotate itself right back to an unloaded state.

 

So friction matters when torquing a bolt.

 

In my professionally-untutored opinion, I believe using antiseize where it is not called out is a bad idea generally. If threads are lubed they turn easier, providing less resistance to the twist of the wrench. Thus, they turn farther (thereby stretching the bolt farther) before a given torque value is reached.

 

It's not so much that you'll twist the head off the bolt, although that is the ultimate failure, of course, but that you will exceed the elastic limit of the bolt. A bolt is a spring, and when its elastic limits are exceeded it will cease to pull back against the load. When that happens the bolt might as well be finger tight, more or less, and with lube on it there is damn little resistance to backing out.

 

With regard to the wheel bolts specifically, if they remain in place long enough to seize up you need to wear out more tires so that you'll take them out from time to time.

 

Someone said use a torque value of 10% lower if the threads are lubed. Where'd that number come from? Is it just a By God guess, or is there some engineering data to support it?

 

This is one of those cases where I'm going to stick with common engineering wisdom, and CEW says that when a torque value is based on dry threads, torque it up dry unless you have engineering data reflecting what a lubed value ought to be.

 

None of which addresses the issue of corroded threads causing false readings; they do. But that is a separate issue that should be addressed properly, not with some cover-up measure like lube.

 

Just because someone has never had a problem lubing threads in the past does not mean that his wheel won't fall off tomorrow.

 

Pilgrim

[RPG]

Quote:

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Sorry, but this is hogwash. The tension on the studs holds them in place, not friction. If it backs out, it wasn't stretched. No matter what your other concerns with antiseise, backing out of lubricated studs is can not be a legitimate concern. If his studs were loose, the more likely explanation is that they were never tightened because he had let them get corroded before he decided antiseise would be a good idea. Just to be clear, the problem occurs when the stud gets corroded and the specified torque (75 or so ft lbs) is all used up just overcoming the friction from the corrosion and there is nothing left to stretch the stud against the wheel.

 

Cheers,

Jerry

 

 

 

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that's a good one since BMW specifically states not to use it. No offense, but unless you're a Mechanical Engineer with a better explanation than "her factory", I'll listen to BMW.

 

Funny you say it's bull, as while I was following a guy around on an RT at a Mid-Ohio Track Day recently, I suddenly see his rear tire moving from side to side. When we got back in the pits, his wheel lug nuts had loosened. As we were talking, guess what, it turns out he always lubricates the threads. Yep, pure hogwash!

[John Ferris]

In the OTL (BMW Riders Association)July 2005 (that came in the mail today) page 7 -"you picked a fine time to leave me loose wheel..." By Anton largiader

"Clean and dry; 105 Newtonmeters. Deviate at your own risk."