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Dick_at_Lake_Tahoe_NV

You too can Void your Engine Warantee

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smiller

Yes, there is almost always an oil bypass system in case of a clogged filter, or if the oil is too cold to flow properly, etc. But while the bypass is most commonly contained in the filter it isn't always that way, sometimes the bypass mechanism is in the engine itself.

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T__
I may be wrong here, but isn't there a bypass mechanism to permit the required lube flow rate/pressure to reach the engine components, even when the filter is too restrictive? That is to say, if the filter is too small/too clogged, some of the oil doesn't get filtered, but all of it gets circulated to the engine components...

 

Anyone know for sure?

 

 

 

Mitch, the 1200 Hex engine oiling system contains a by-pass valve that opens at 6 bar (87 psi).. That is basically what controls the max operating oil pressure.. I have no idea what the oil filter internal by-pass opens at to protect against a plugged oil filter but they are usually in the 15-30 psi range.. Those internal oil filter by-pass valves are not very precise as they are mass produced & very dependent on spring pressure vs by-pass opening..

A lot of auto manufacturers choose to not rely on the oil filter by-pass valve so spec out a non in-filter by-pass & place the by-pass valve in the engine casting at the oil filter mounting area (ie older small block chevy’s)..

 

Twisty

 

 

 

 

 

 

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markgoodrich
I may be wrong here, but isn't there a bypass mechanism to permit the required lube flow rate/pressure to reach the engine components, even when the filter is too restrictive? That is to say, if the filter is too small/too clogged, some of the oil doesn't get filtered, but all of it gets circulated to the engine components...

 

Anyone know for sure?

 

 

 

Mitch, the 1200 Hex engine oiling system contains a by-pass valve that opens at 6 bar (87 psi).. That is basically what controls the max operating oil pressure.. I have no idea what the oil filter internal by-pass opens at to protect against a plugged oil filter but they are usually in the 15-30 psi range.. Those internal oil filter by-pass valves are not very precise as they are mass produced & very dependent on spring pressure vs by-pass opening..

A lot of auto manufacturers choose to not rely on the oil filter by-pass valve so spec out a non in-filter by-pass & place the by-pass valve in the engine casting at the oil filter mounting area (ie older small block chevy’s)..

 

Twisty

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ah, finally some objective information we can discuss and analyze. Let's assume the filter got clogged up, despite the probable fact that's impossible given the interval in which it was used, unless there was catastrophic damage to the engine, or someone poured sand in it.

 

First thing we need to know is if Amsoil installs a bypass valve in their filters, and what pressure is required to open it and let oil circulate unfiltered.

 

Second, is there a bypass valve in the OEM -spec filter, and if so, is it materially different from the Amsoil valve?

 

Third, if as Twisty says the engine has a safety valve preventing overpressure beyond 87psi, and the Amsoil, or any filter, has a valve which opens earlier, is that going to cause damage to the engine? If so, why just to the right side, and just to that particular area of the right side?

 

Fourth, if BMW is so certain the Amsoil filter is the culprit, the minimum they should do is provide the exact specifications for the OEM filter (perhaps this is available somewhere on the Great Google???) and then OP can take it up with Amsoil's engineers.

 

I'll repeat my suggestion, and Koop's more informed version, that all this should be moot; a cooler head above the one who denied the claim should be contacted.

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Dick_at_Lake_Tahoe_NV
Dick, if you are relying on the dealer telling you that BMW denied the claim, consider that dealers don't like some extensive warranty jobs as the mfgr. tends to pay a set fee to the dealer to fix it, which often doesn't cover the real labor involved. So be sure you speak directly with BMWNA and read up on the Magnuson-Moss act prior to doing so. A quick internet search on "BMW Magnuson" will turn up many cases of individuals being screwed over by NA. And there are lawyers who will handle the case at no charge to you--the mfgr. must pay. Good luck and keep us informed. :wave:

 

Maybe just a little more info would help. I started to notice a ticking noise early in the summer, before I took a 3000 mile ride. This ticking occured only at start-up and disappeared after about 30-seconds. Near the end of the summer it had gotten louder--not so much to be concerned because it went away after about 30-seconds, and the bike ran great. There has been some specultion as to why I installed the Amsoil filter, after I had used only BMW filters on my R1200RT up to this point. The simple reason is that 6,000 miles was up, it was time for an oil change, I was out of BMW filters, the Amsoil filter fit perfectly, has more filtering area, is very high quality, worked on my R1150RT, so I installed it. During the next 1,200 miles the ticking increased to a knocking--not severe but a knock nevertheless. I started my bike, after 30-seconds the knock stopped, I rode the bike about 40-miles to the dealer and left it for warrantee service, because it had 33,000 miles and 35 months on it--so I was near the end. The dealer first changed the Cam-chain tensioner (I think that's right), but it didn't correct the problem. Then they pulled both cylinders, noticed one of the pistons was scuffed, but the cylinder wall was perfect. There was no other damage to the engine, just one small scuff on one piston. BMW asked for my service records. I do most of my own service, including Oil changes (Engine, Transmission, and Rear-drive), balance throttle-bodies, adjust valves, replace spark plugs and brake pads. So I had a detail record of the Oil Weights I use, filters I use (always BMW filter,except for the last one which was Amsoil--not thinking this would be a problem). When I took the bike in the filter had only been installed for 1200 miles so it definitly was not clogged. Anyway, the shop didn't even have to tell BMW I used an Amsoil filter it was right there on my service record, and I gave them the bullet they needed.

 

The Service manager is a Certified BMW Master technician, Certified BMW Service Manager, and the winner of our District's Service Manager of the year 4 out of the past 5-years. One of the most knowledgeable BMW mechanics I have met. Anyway, he argued with BMW that he did not believe the piston scuffing was due to any problem related to Oil or Filter. BMW homed in on the filter--end of discussion. However, the person that denied my warantee suggested to the Service manager that he contact the district manager to handle part or all of the costs for "Customer good-will". During the past 9-years this is my 4th BMW bike and my 3rd RT ('97, '02, '05). During the past 9-years I have owned up to 5-bikes at one time, including a VFR interceptor, Valkyrie, Gold Wing, Harley Sportster, BMW F650 and BMW RT. For me the RT is the perfect bike, and despite what BMW does with this warrantee, my next bike will be another RT.

 

When talking with the District Manager, My service manager has offered to remove 3-hours of charges related to diagnostics--if BMW will assist with the warantee for Customer good will. I'm waiting to see what happens with that offer. If I end up paying 100% I'll follow one of the previous recommendations and contact the highest guy I can find in BMWNA (and I don't know who that is--Help!!) And tell him of my plight and ask for his assistance. If the answer is still no, then I don't intend to waste anymore time, because I clearly understand that I used an un-approved filter and am at least partly to blame for my warantee being rejected. I had no idea that would void my warantee, just as I had no idea using Automobile Oil (API SF or better) might void my warantee, or that not filling my filter before installing it might void my warantee--the service manager corrected that concept with the person handling my warantee. Now I wonder if installing Thin-wire Iridium Spark plugs, instead of the more standard type could affect my warantee? I'm not trying to be paranoid, but "Even if you're not paranoid, that doesn't mean they're not out to get you!" :dopeslap:

 

So bottom line to all this, is be careful what you use in the way of an Oil filter. There have been a lot of discussions on this site of using Fram, or Bosch or Super-tech--and for me, I wouldn't chance it. Also be sure to keep all your receipts--I did, but this issue with BMW over the past month has been trying--to say the least.

 

T

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smiller

The high-pressure relief valve has nothing to do with the oil filter, nothing to do with Mitch's question, and nothing to do with these circumstances.

 

The oil filter bypass valve is based on application and not filter brand, an Amsoil (or any brand filter) may have one or not depending on the engine it is intended to be used with. If equipped it will open at a fairly low pressure, and these specs only vary by small amounts, and the number usually isn't critical anyway. And if the filter clogged (highly improbable, as you noted) and was in constant bypass then it wouldn't matter what type or brand of filter was in there.

 

The truly relevant information would be whether there is any other oil-starvation damage anywhere else in the engine. If so, then something caused it and maybe you could look at the filter, among many other things. If not and the damage is confined to the bore of one cylinder then that points to a piston fit/assembly issue.

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T__

I tried to find the BMW oil filter specs for the hexhead.. No luck there,, I tried the K&N filter site as I know they offer an oil filter specifically for the 1200 hexhead & they seem to list most filter specs on their web site.. Unfortunately the filter speced out for the hex head only says (Y) for by-pass valve but doesn’t give the valve operating specs.. I can’t seem to find the by-pass valve specs for the Amsoil filter either..

 

I guess a person could E-Mail both Amsoil & K&N to request the filter by-pass valve & other pertinent specs for the filters in question then compare the filter by-pass specs..

 

I did find this very interesting Warranty info on the K&N site..

 

http://www.knfilters.com/warrantyletter.htm

 

I like the part about getting the failure report is WRITING as that instantly puts both BMW & the dealer on the spot as far a confirming the failure root cause & can be useful in both a future court case or help from other sources such as consumer watch groups or government protection groups..

 

I guess if you have it that the oil filter was the root cause of the failure then through research find that the Amsoil filter meets the flow,, by-pass,, media size,, filtration equivalent,, etc,, then you probably then have some leverage to take action..

 

 

Twisty

 

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Dick_at_Lake_Tahoe_NV

Very interesting comments about K&N because that was one of the examples that my service manager gave me, that BMW Motorrad has denied warrantee repairs if a K&N filter was used, because it does not filter particles as required. Hmmmm, from the link you gave, it looks like you could fight that--but I just hate to get in these kinds of fights--after going through 2-divorces, I realize only the lawyers get rich.

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T__

Dick, I here you on the lawyers getting rich.. At least with the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act you have the right to have the other side pay your legal fees if you win.. You would probably have to have a good solid case to get a win without a compromise though..

 

Twisty

 

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bobbybob

Now that we know that NA agreed to a "goodwill" write-off, that raises the question: WHY would NA agree to Goodwill when they denied the warranty claim itself because of "unapproved" equipment used on the bike? This is good for the customer, but I smell a rat as far as their motive. Goodwill write-offs are usually reserved for bikes that have recently run out of warranty and NA feels badly and absorbs the costs anyway. But this bike is still in warranty. Sounds like they *know* their case is bogus but going this route shifts some of the cost to the poor dealer while making the customer happy. This sux. :mad:

 

(That being said, if I were the customer I would certainly accept it under those terms. But it still stinks.)

Edited by bobbybob

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11101110

There is nothing wrong with getting advice from an attorney at this time. Just don't let him offically represent you, yet. I did this with a car insurance claim that lasted two years and this advice is based on that experience. The attorney may be able to give you advice on what information to collect and possibly givve you hints on how to get them to stick their foot in their mouth. But never let on that you have talked to an attorney while dealing with their reps or start using legal speak. You might mention that you have read up on the Magneson-Moss act but nothing further. My understanding of the MM act is that you are not required to use OEM parts as long as the aftermarket manufacturer has apporved them for the intended use. You may have to get a letter from Amsoil stating the difference between the 1150 and 1200 filter. I would not divulge to BMW the particulate catching ability or anything else they can load thier gun with unless you can find the official BMW oil filter specs.

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smiller

If the damage is limited to some scuffing in one cylinder I'm not sure that the owner could possibly come out ahead with an attorney whose fees would probably equal or exceed the cost of repair. You could recover your costs if you win but that's taking a gamble that most probably wouldn't be willing to take. About the only thing that seems practical for such a relatively small amount would be to first try to work things out amicably by working up the chain of management (vastly preferable), or if stonewalled try small claims court. Go in there with whatever documentation you can come up with (copy of the Magnusson-Moss Act, your records of proper maintenance, pictures showing damage in only one cylinder, data from Amsoil indicating that their filter is not inferior to OEM, etc.) and present it to the judge. You'll either win or lose but even if you lose it won't have cost you much to try.

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lvnvbiker

Hell I use K&N filters in all my vehicles, both air and oil. I have racked up alot of both on and off road miles with no issues whatsoever on many vehicles for quite a few years. The K&N filter in my Nissan was purchased at the Nissan dealer, as were the filters in my Harley and a number of other manufacturers bikes. The parts and service guys at my locals BMW dealer run K&N filters in thier GS's and RT's and have stated so publicly. It strikes me as funny that depending on where one is in the country has a effect on what is recommended and accepted as OK. But filters are like icecream and everyone has thier own flavor preference, and some are quite forceful in pushing thiers as best and insisting that one is stupid if they don't see it thier way. I would pay to see the look on the BMW service and warrantee depts faces when you request in writing that the filter was the cause for denial of the claim. I can see some back peddling and a possible courtesy repair in full under the guise of good faith and customer retention while the written document you requested is not forthcoming. Oh, and let the flaming arrows fly at me for using the evil K&N stuff now, I have on my nomex coated chain mail.

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lvnvbiker

Oh and this topic is realy of interest to me as my bike has some clatter at startup that goes away after a second when OP builds. It has only sounded like a knock once when it was realy F'n cold and only for a split second then gone. To the op did this start out sounding like valve clatter and only on cold starts? mine only does it after sitting overnight and I always use the centerstand at home, it happens once and a while when I start after work from the sidestand. The best description I have is that it sounds like valve clatter when a hydraulic tapet is not pumped up all the way, and it stops in less than a second or two and purrs like it should.

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Dick_at_Lake_Tahoe_NV

Now that I think of it, the clatter probably lasted more like 10-15 seconds or so, but certainly longer than a couple of seconds it might take for oil pressure to come up. Yes it did sound like valve clatter. I had adjusted the valves at 26,200, before any start-up noise was occuring. After a few months of the slight clatter increasing to more of a knocking, it sounded like something might have loosened, so I checked the valves again at 33,800--spot on-- before taking my bike to the dealer for Warantee.

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Dick_at_Lake_Tahoe_NV

Sorry, I missed part of your question. Yes the clatter/knocking only occurs at first cold start in the morning. The rest of the day--no problem.

 

Also as a general comment, one of the reasons I started this thread was to alert other members of this site that BMW can/will scrutinize your maintenance more than what I have experienced from Honda. Auto Oil filters will probably not be accepted, nor will Auto Oil even if it meets the spec of API SF or better. There has been a lot of discussion of Transmission and Final-drive oil. I use 75W90, but some think the spec is 75W140--be careful of this one. Also as mentioned before, I use a fine-wire Iridium Spark plug--is that hotter, or faster-flashing or something else that could cause BMW to void my warantee--I don't know. All I know from my case, since I do my own maintenance and always have (Cars, Bikes, ATVs, Dirt Bikes), and the BMW shop has not seen my bike since the 600 mile service--BMW Motorrad looks at my records closely, and asks pointed questions such as, have you ever started and run the bike without Oil?!

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lvnvbiker

Yeah, I agree that I have never had to deal with that amount of sceptecism regarding service. I am a heavy equipment mechanic by trade and have yet to be under that level of scrutiny on repairs that cost twice what a new rt does. I am gonna have to take a closer look at my RT now and pay more attention at start up in regards to this noise. It never realy hit me until this thread that that clatter could be something more serious, but these bikes don't have hydraulic valve trains so that probably should not be happening. Thanks for you quick responec Dick, and I truly wish you the best of luck with your problem. I also must say that I admire the fact that this "issue" has not turned you into a raving anti beemer, never again guy like some of the others I have seen. After all it is just a machine, and they have for the most part a stellar record. Such a great record infact that when I got tired of riding Harleys BMW was the only logical step that still possesed a soul. I guess I am still stuck on the air cooled twins, jus now turned and spread a bit from before.

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T__

Dick, after doing a little research this morning I did come up with some by-pass specs from BMW.. They don’t specifically state oil filter by-pass specs but I can’t imagine they wouldn’t be oil filter by-pass numbers..

 

For the 1100 oil head the pressure differential for by-pass is given by BMW at 1.5 bar (21.7 psi)

 

Couldn’t find a listing for the 1150 RT but did for the 1150 GS & that was-- 1100 GS oil head pressure differential for by-pass is given by BMW at 1.5 bar (21.3 psi)__ Note the 1.5 bar to 21.3 psi doesn’t seem to jive..

 

 

For the 1200 hex head the pressure differential for by-pass is given by BMW at 2.5 bar +/- .3 bar (36.2 psi) +/- 4.3 psi..

 

I have no idea the validity of the above numbers but they came out of BMW service information.. Also the info doesn’t specifically state OIL FILTER by-pass but I can’t see how it could be other..

 

The commonly used 1100/1150 Mobil-1 M1-102 filter seems to have a by-pass relief setting of 8-11 psi.. Couldn’t find the by-pass numbers for the Amsoil or my favorite Bosh 3330..

 

I’m not too certain how important the by-pass numbers really are as they have to take into account the cold oil flow vs the filter media restriction so could be based on engine oil type & engine oil system cold flow,, or based on filter restriction to a given cold oil flow rate.. Or based on ???? __ Obviously you don’t want a restrictive filter to block cold oil flow & proper lubrication but on the other hand you don’t want the oil filter to operate in by-pass all the time..

 

 

Twisty

 

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Indy Dave
Oh and this topic is realy of interest to me as my bike has some clatter at startup that goes away after a second when OP builds. It has only sounded like a knock once when it was realy F'n cold and only for a split second then gone. To the op did this start out sounding like valve clatter and only on cold starts? mine only does it after sitting overnight and I always use the centerstand at home, it happens once and a while when I start after work from the sidestand. The best description I have is that it sounds like valve clatter when a hydraulic tapet is not pumped up all the way, and it stops in less than a second or two and purrs like it should.

 

Hmmm . .So today I go over to get the bike out of the warehouse, because some things I ordered for it arrived, and we might get some temps in the 40's later this week. I push it outside and start it up (on the center stand). Like I normally do when it's cold, I let it run on the stand, go back inside make a phone call and put my gear on. I come back outside and the engine is making what sounds like what you both are describing - a cross between a taping and a knock - leaning more towards a knock. Defiantly loud enough to record. :eek:

 

Remembering you both said it stops after its warm or u ride it (and being stranded) I rode it the 2 miles home and . . . the noise was gone when I got home. I have 2 lights and 1 stop sign between here and there - but with the helmet, I could not tell if it was still making the noise while in route.

 

The noise might have gone, but not my concern! Concern about repeatability for the dealer. Concern about long term effects - ie: after warranty expires and then problems . . What it it fails to make the noise for the dealer - but damage has been done? U get the idea. This is the first time I have noticed the noise, but I'm the second owner.

 

I guess I'll start it again tomorrow and have a recorder handy to document the noise - if it does it again. Any other suggestions? Will they look deeper into this at the dealer if it fails to make the noise for them because it's under warranty - or is it my dime unless they find something?

 

My 06 has 28K and all service performed has been done by the dealer. Warranty expires in Oct 09.

 

And the plot thickens . . .

Edited by workin them angels

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T__

Yes, see if the noise is there on a fresh cold start tomorrow.. It might be as simple an one of the hydraulic cam tensioners bleeding down during storage.. Usually takes a short time for those to re-fill with oil..

 

Sometimes the alternator belt will make a squawking type rattley noise if it is slips on cold start..

 

 

Twisty

 

 

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Indy Dave

Thanks ~ it did seem like the alternator was under a good load - you know- that whine they can make. I had the grips on high, but nothing else extra drawing power.

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T__

If the noise comes back when starting & running on center stand under the same conditions try pulling the clutch in to see if it goes away.. Under the right circumstances you can get a somewhat nasty sounding neutral gear rattle.. That neutral gear rattle is a somewhat normal non terminal occurrence on the BMW boxers & nothing to worry about..

 

Twisty

 

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John in VA
I'm not trying to be paranoid, but "Even if you're not paranoid, that doesn't mean they're not out to get you!" :dopeslap:

 

This particular BMW rep is out to get you -- and by extension, your dealer, simple as that.

 

There's no excuse for denying your warranty claim except pure orneriness and a powerplay by the BMW rep. The mere presence of a non-BMW filter is of no mechanical or legal consequence UNLESS BMW can show (and it is they who must prove it) that the non-BMW filter was defective, or that its canister had a hole in it and all oil was lost.

 

Why is BMW even talking about a possible partial Goodwill allowance when they claim that Amsoil's product ruined your bike? Ridiculous. That BMW rep is a stain on BMW's corporate reputation.

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11101110

Well one option is to name both Amsoil and BMW as defendants. Sue them all and let the attorneys/judge sort it out. :dopeslap:

 

Seriously you really need to ask for BMW to put the failure analysis into writing. I be willing to bet the rep denying the claim is incapable (ie no authority), due to his position, to provide such document. It would have to come from higher up. The person with the authority to make such a document will also know that such a document can be used in court. If they refuse to give you a written document then that is almost as good as them admitting that they have no valid reason for denying your claim.

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Indy Dave

Wheeled RT out of the garage, placed back on canter stand and started. Hmm No clicking or knocking. Wait about a minute ~ all seems good :)

 

Again as usual in these temps, leave bike running and go inside get gear on ~ 5 mins +/-. Reaching the back door, I can already hear the ticking. Grab my phone and record sound, first from the right side, then over to the left and back to the right. Defiantly coming from the right side. The frequency of tapping increases proportionate to engine revs.

 

I pulled in the clutch (by this time, the rear wheel has stopped spinning) - no difference.

 

In retrospect, the engine noise was not noticeable yesterday at initial start-up either. It was only after I came back out that the noise was evident.

 

Note: I recorded the noise on the phone video recorder. I don’t think I can post that type of file on this site. Could email if anyone is interested.

 

Edited by workin them angels

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b34cez

First of all, best of luck Dick with the repair on your bike and thank you for your post!

 

Last week I parked my 2008 RT (14.000 km) for the winter. Before doing that I started the engine cold on the center stand, it was not started for about 3 weeks. For about 30 seconds I heard the tapping noise that was coming from my left cylinder. I put my hand on the cylinder cover and I could feel the vibration coming from something that seemed to be knocking on the cover.

 

After about 30 seconds the noise was gone, but it seems worrying.

 

So far I did the regular maintenance (2 times) in BMW shop.

 

Did anyone else experience this issue? If yes - did it happen when the bike was not started for more than a week, or after 1-2 days?

 

Sorry I pass this question here, but the BMW representative in my country is not reliable.

 

 

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AviP

It's tough economic times and even BMW is feeling the pinch. This is their method of saving a few bucks at your expense.

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bobbybob

Dick,

Lots of folks (even you) have referred to using an "unapproved" oil filter. So think about this: if the one you used is "unapproved", tell us, BMW, which one(s) are "approved"? If they say "only the BMW brand" then that is blatantly against Magnuson-Moss, unless they offer the filter to you free of charge. Which they don't. If they DO have a list of other "approved" filters, then we ALL need to see that list. But if they can't/won't produce it, they have no leg to stand on in denying coverage. NONE.

Now go get them hopping up there in NJ.

 

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Dick_at_Lake_Tahoe_NV

Thanks to all of your for your ideas, suggestions and best wishes as I try to tackle this problem with BMW. The Amsoil filter I installed was approved for R1100RT and R1150RT, I could see no reason why it wouldn't work fine on the R1200RT, except it was a little longer by about 3/4-inch, so it protrudes down below the pan. I contacted Amsoil about a week ago, and their response was "We have no filter that is currently aprroved for the R1200RT". As you can see below, the scrooges at BMW are launching this attack against Santa. That's me with my Penguin Mascot, at Diamond peak Ski Resort. I handed out about 300 candy canes to the kids today, and will do the same for the next two days.

 

http://www.diamondpeak.com/conditions/pic

 

 

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smiller

What is BMW's exact reason for denying the claim? Because it is an Amsoil filter? Or only because it is not specified for the 1200? Or what? As has been mentioned, insist on a written explanation for the denial along with a list of which filters non-BMW filters are acceptable (which they will probably refuse to provide) and take it from there. Insist that they declare exactly why they believe the problem is related to the oil filter. Unless they can demonstrate a clear failure of the filter there ins''t anywhere they can go with that claim, which is why the old 'it's because of the filter' excuse isn't commonly used by most manufacturers anymore unless there is a smoking gun.

 

Get it all in writing and all the ambiguities in the case will give you several ways to go at this. Or not and just let it go, even though you believe that the filter did not cause the problem. I'm sure that the guy who made this decision would like the Christmas present.

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T__

Seth, I doubt any motor company will give a customer a list of approved oil or air filters.. I know the motor company I work for sure won’t..

First off it keeps them out of the loop as far as keeping up on filter quality or running changes but most importantly (at least in the MoCo I work for is they don’t have to durability test them all).. Nothing in the law says that have to..

 

The law (at least in USA) says they can’t force you to use only their products but they can demand they meet their OEM specs..

 

About the most any will say on aftermarket filters will be that they must meet OEM specs.. Problem is; most won’t freely release those specs..

 

 

The only aftermarket filter I have ever seen the company I work for test as to proper operation,, fitment,, & function are some of the frame mounted plastic fuel filters with plastic OEM fuel lines.. There was a big problem & concern at one time with static electricity building in the plastic fuel system lines/filters in cold very dry ambient,, then arcing to surrounding metallic parts & causing a fire.. Even then no list of approved but also no list of do-not-use..

 

Twisty

 

 

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smiller
Seth, I doubt any motor company will give a customer a list of approved oil or air filters.

Yes, I know they won't, which is why I edited the post to clarify my meaning (apparently after your response though.) But the point is that the refusal puts BMW in the position of saying 'you didn't use the right filter' without being able to tell you what the right filter is, or often even the required specifications, other than the presumption that a BMW filter is OK. But it's not legal to require a BMW filter to maintain warranty coverage and if use of alternate filters is summary grounds for a denial of coverage then the consumer is put in an untenable position, which is why BMW knows they will lose this case without some evidence that the filter actually caused the problem. It's not enough to simply say 'filter' and walk away from the warranty without some factual basis. If they can't or won't provide that they will lose, and they know it, which is why the OP has a good chance of getting more cooperation if he goes higher up the ladder.

 

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T__

Seth, I agree with you.. The difficult thing is given the info from the OP most of us on this thread have big doubts that the oil filter could have even caused his problem to begin with.. My guess is even BMW MoCo rep & the dealer have doubts that the oil filter caused the problem.. The MoCo rep found an easy way out when he found an aftermarket oil filter & the dealer probably didn’t push it too far to help out as there really isn’t much money in heavy engine repair anyway & it does tie a lift table up for a long time..

 

The overriding issue here is the MoCo & the dealer can easily deny any warrantee coverage based on about anything that doesn’t fit their small print disclaimer.. Heck they could deny warrantee coverage because the rider has a racing pants on.. Maybe not according the letter of the law but they can say NO & it’s up to you to prove otherwise.. They know up front the worst that will happen with a first effort denial will be the possibility of a legal decision forcing them to do the repair or the customer just accepting the denial & paying for the repairs.. It costs nothing for them to say NO except some customer dissatisfaction as they can always just make the repair if it looks like it will go to court..

 

That’s one of the risks of doing your own maintenance or repairs,, not much sympathy from the dealer & easy for the MoCo rep to just say NO to any factory help.. Plus it sure doesn’t help that the OEM oil filter for the hexhead is kind of an oddball & not much in the aftermarket lines up with it’s size..

 

More than likely with some investigative data & some filter experts he could win a court case but that takes time & money up front so he would be without the bike for a long time & probably need to pay up front lawyers fees with the hopes of winning & getting his legal fees back..

 

Hopefully the issue can be handled per you suggestion ~”OP has a good chance of getting more cooperation if he goes higher up the ladder.”

 

 

I feel sorry for the OP (Dick) here as he is in a disadvantaged position & will more than likely have to fight to get any satisfaction..

 

I am glad he posted his ordeal here as it will definitely help the rest of us out as far as warrantee issues on our own motorcycles.. I know a lot of us use oil head oil filters on our hex heads & do our own maintenance so it will be in our best interest to have at least one hex head OEM filter on the shelf to swap on if warrantee engine work is required.. It might not even be a bad idea if a person has an engine related noise to get a dealer oil & filter change then ride it a short while before reporting the noise to the dealer for a warrantee claim..

 

Twisty

 

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ScottT

Hi Dick. I wanted to chime in one more time. This time on your side. I'm with you on the part of informing owners that BMW will scrutinize your work. Anyway, if your 2007 warranty reads like my 2005 then you may win this thing afterall.

 

j)Non-BMW parts: Damage to a component or assembly due to the installation of replacement parts with specifications that differ in any material respect from Original BMW Parts.

 

If I read that right BMW has to prove the damage was caused by the R1150 filter. I should have cracked open the warranty book before being too much of a devil's advocate. I didn't intend to call your integrety into question either but this is the internet and I am naturally skeptical. At any rate I was wrong in the assumption that showing up with a filter for a different model automatically voided the warranty. The burden of proof is on BMW that this filter caused the problem. Now keep in mind BMW likely has data on the two different filters. Things like the flow rate, etc. It would be nice to know this before going after BMW in court. Whatever you decide, I wish you the best of luck.

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smiller

Agreed on all points Twisty, and I also find myself questioning how much 'assistance' the dealer is really providing in this case. I really kind of doubt that if the dealer was really telling BMW that they don't think the filter was involved that BMW would then override them and deny the claim.... something just doesn't add up there. In any event it's true that the questionable filter sure doesn't make the case any easier but I can say that if it were me I'd go for the jugular... and win.

 

That being said I always had an official BMW filter on my shelf during my bike's warranty period... :)

 

 

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T__
That being said I always had an official BMW filter on my shelf during my bike's warranty period

 

As of this thread I now have one on the shelf also..

 

Twisty

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T__
Hi Dick. I wanted to chime in one more time. This time on your side. I'm with you on the part of informing owners that BMW will scrutinize your work. Anyway, if your 2007 warranty reads like my 2005 then you may win this thing afterall.

 

j)Non-BMW parts: Damage to a component or assembly due to the installation of replacement parts with specifications that differ in any material respect from Original BMW Parts.

 

If I read that right BMW has to prove the damage was caused by the R1150 filter. I should have cracked open the warranty book before being too much of a devil's advocate. I didn't intend to call your integrety into question either but this is the internet and I am naturally skeptical. At any rate I was wrong in the assumption that showing up with a filter for a different model automatically voided the warranty. The burden of proof is on BMW that this filter caused the problem. Now keep in mind BMW likely has data on the two different filters. Things like the flow rate, etc. It would be nice to know this before going after BMW in court. Whatever you decide, I wish you the best of luck.

 

Scott,

If I read that right BMW has to prove the damage was caused by the R1150 filter.

 

Where do see that written anywhere.. All they HAVE to do is say NO.. They don’t have to prove anything.. You have to prove your side to force them to do anything.. The law is on your side if the filter isn’t the cause but the burden of proof in on you not the MoCo.. Who are you going to call to force them pay for a warrantee repair if they just say NO?

 

Twisty

 

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ScottT

It's written in the booklet titled

Consumer Warranty Information, 2005 U.S. Motorcycles
and it is on page 13. I thought Dick mentioned his bike was a 2007 but I don't see that written anywhere. The warranty wording can change from year to year. If his bike is a 2005 within 3 years of the orginal sale date and has less than 36k BMW has to show the damage was caused by the filter. The warranty does not specifically say putting on a filter listed for the oilhead and bought from an aftermarket manufacturer voids the warranty. It says pretty clearly that the damage must be caused by that part. Also on this same page:

 

The warranty shall be null and void if:

1. The motorcycle is used in any competitive events.

2. The motorcycle has been declared a total loss or sold for salvage purposes.

3. If the Vehicle Identification Number has been altered or cannot be read.

4. Any performance accessory or components attached to the vehicle alters the original engineering and/or operating specifications which results, or may result, in damage to other original components.

 

The key point is number four. The Amsoil oilhead filter has to alter the engineering (like changing the flow) and this had to have caused the damage. This warranty booklet is a small white booklet and has come with every new BMW I have ever bought. If BMW says no, without providing supporting evidence that the filter was the cause the only recourse you have is to sue them or theaten to do so and hope for a settlement. If BMW cannot prove the damage was caused or linked to the different filter they have to fix it. When it comes to the warranty what is in that little white booklet is the law. Even if Dick decides to fight it will likely be an uphill one.

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markgoodrich

Here's a question for those of you who've worked in the auto/bike industry...especially Koop: what would NA's reaction be to a sudden influx of emails (cc the dealer) attaching a link to this thread with the name of the dealership and the OP's name, along with personal notes (politely) requesting NA reconsider their position regarding the claim denial, not for goodwill, but because the filter as cause of damage doesn't meet their own smell test?

 

In other words, could this community help the OP?

 

If useful, I'll also point out this issue has a long thread over on the MOA site, too...more folks to involve.

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smiller
Here's a question for those of you who've worked in the auto/bike industry...especially Koop: what would NA's reaction be to a sudden influx of emails (cc the dealer) attaching a link to this thread with the name of the dealership and the OP's name, along with personal notes (politely) requesting NA reconsider their position regarding the claim denial, not for goodwill, but because the filter as cause of damage doesn't meet their own smell test?

I know your heart's in the right place but it's really not possible to do something like that without personal knowledge of the situation. I'm not referring to the OP here, but if the Internet community took that kind of action for every person who claimed to have been treated unfairly then any credibility would quickly drop to zero (if the opinion of the Internet community isn't already at or below zero among manufacturers.) I don't think it would be appropriate to take such action unless you had both proper expertise and personal knowledge of the facts, and few of us have the latter, in this case or any other.

 

The best way to win these kinds of disputes is quietly with a combination of facts and gentle persuasion. Noise from the Internet will probably only get in the way I'm afraid.

 

 

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markgoodrich

Point taken, Seth.

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Ken H.
Where do see that written anywhere.. All they HAVE to do is say NO.. They don’t have to prove anything.. You have to prove your side to force them to do anything.. The law is on your side if the filter isn’t the cause but the burden of proof in on you not the MoCo..

I don't know about that, case law based on the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act is pretty clear - the burden to prove that a specic act (e.g. - using a non-OEM filter) caused the damage is on the manufacture. Or to put it anouther way, it's in warranty unless the mfg. can prove (in court) it's out. Not the owner having to prove that it's in warranty.

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T__
Where do see that written anywhere.. All they HAVE to do is say NO.. They don’t have to prove anything.. You have to prove your side to force them to do anything.. The law is on your side if the filter isn’t the cause but the burden of proof in on you not the MoCo..

I don't know about that, case law based on the Magnuson-Moss Warranty Act is pretty clear - the burden to prove that a specic act (e.g. - using a non-OEM filter) caused the damage is on the manufacture. Or to put it anouther way, it's in warranty unless the mfg. can prove (in court) it's out. Not the owner having to prove that it's in warranty.

 

 

Ken, obviously not the case as the MoCo rep already said NO & the dealer already said NO.. Neither had to show ANY proof to say no.. What you going to do plop your warrantee booklet on the counter & demand they repair it? They will just say NO again & there your bike sits..

 

Sure the law could eventually back you & issue a court order for the MoCo to repair it but how else you going to force the issue..

I will say it again,, they don’t (HAVE) to do anything,, you must do all the doing to force them to do anything..

 

Twisty

 

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Mike T

As I read through these posts and based on two dealing with BMWNA on warranty issues (both of which were eventually resolved) it still amazes me of what a dysfunctional warranty set up BMW has. I've dealt with several warranty issues on Hondas, GMCs, Nissans, and Isuzus all with a satisfactory result without involving any escalation past the dealer.

 

The BMW US setup puts the dealer at risk to get things approved by BMWNA so that they don't end up "eating" warranty costs. Both of my warranty issues had to be escalated to BMWNA. At first both were rejected for reasons like "a clutch is a wear item" even though the issues was the splines had worn out due to a gearbox misalignment issue. In both cases the dealer had to "go to bat" to get the warranty covered by BMWNA. One warranty issue on a cruise control problem took over six weeks to repair while waiting for a part. I was without the bike the entire time because BMWNA would not pay for a loaner or pay the dealer to reassembly the bike while we were waiting for the part.

 

In both cases when I contacted BMWNA myself and was told there "was no escalation process". One time I caught the BMWNA rep in an out right lie. In both cases the problems were eventually repaired without me having to hire an attorney. BUT, in both cases I had such a sour taste in my mouth about BMW I was tempted (but didn't) to buy another brand of Motorcycle. I've decided I will no longer buy any future BMW's that are still under warranty. I'll save the money and expect to deal with problems at my expense should they arise.

 

In sum, it continues to amaze me how bad BMW is about honoring their warranty and alienating their customers. I think the problem stems from the fact that BMWNA has a dysfunctional arrangement with all of their dealers where the dealers has to fight to get paid for warranty issues. Customer satisfaction is left up to each individual dealer with BMWNA only measuring the financial impacts and not customer satisfaction. To demonstrate this last point, after each warranty episode I was contacted by a 3rd party surveying company asking how my experience with the Dealer was. There were no questions about BMWNA or BMW in general (only the dealer). At the end of each survey I expressed my dissatisfaction with BMWNA and not the dealer. In one case I asked for "someone who cares" form BMWNA to call me so I could discuss this. Two months later I got a voicemial from someone at BMWNA leaving a 1-800 number to call them back at. When I called I got the same BMWNA rep that had lied to me and told me there is was not an escalation path on the phone a few months prior. Needless to say it was a short and useless phone call. I was told once again that there was no one else I could talk to.

 

I own a small business and if I treated my customers like this I would be out of business. The main reason I continue to ride BMWs is because of the fellow riders (like those on this forum) that I respect and want to be associated with.

 

Merry Christmas everyone.

 

 

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rglassma

I consider myself to be very fortunate when it comes to BMW warranty. I have had a number of warranty claims on both bikes that I have own ('03 LT and '05 RT) and I have never been turned down on warranty repair. The whole process from BMW of Denver has been absolutely seemless. I can also say the same thing about Foothills BMW in Lakewood, CO.

 

I think alot of this has to do with what the dealer tells BMWNA and their motives in dealing with the issue. If they are trying to establish a longterm relationship with you the customer and generate future business, they will do what it takes, and use common sense.

 

Not sure about the interaction with the dealer with regard to this issue. I am not sure what they told BMW and what they didn't.

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tbrown

Hey, that reminds me of the one where the casting on the RT Paralever breaks into 3 pieces on the road. Now, this is hilarious...

 

I called BMW Roadside Assistance. They didn't have my VIN number in their database. This is fall of '06 and I bought the bike from a legit BMW dealer in May of '05. They said they'd make a "special exception" for me. I told them to chuck themselves and hung up. Steeeeriike One!

 

I then dialed Progressive Insurance who came and got my bike and delivered it to my dealer. Dealer was convinced that the cause was a defective casting and that it would be covered, no problem. They didn't bother to change the Wilbers rear shock back to a stock one. When BMW came in, they took one look at the Wilbers and denied the claim. That's it. Over. No discussion. Steeeriiike TWO!!!

 

They also were not the least bit interested in examinining the casting, which I now own. STEEEERIIIIIKE THEERRREEEEE!!!!

 

The obvious lesson here is to keep your original parts and put them back on before any warranty work is contemplated. The way it works is that engine trouble they look for non-BMW oil or filters or turbochargers or AFTERMARKET EXHAUSTS. Suspension problem? Better hide those new and better shocks. Electrical? Get rid of those Cibie driving lights and that brake light illuminator and that new circuit braker box, Gerbings thermostat, radar dector, Garmin GPS, Ipod etc. Break a windscreen support in the wind? Make sure to put that stock screen back on before showing it to the dealer.

 

Get the pattern here? If it could possibly cause any sort of problem, it voids the warranty whether it caused the problem or not. If they deny, it's up to you to PROVE that the item didn't cause the problem. If you can't or if it's not worth your time, you lose.

 

After the bike was fixed, I went back to the stock shock for a while and sent the Wilbers to Wilbers for examination. They returned it without modification and said it was working fine. It's been back on my bike for two seasons and works perfectly.

 

The Incident: I hit a small pavement break at about 30mph. It was 2" high. I went back and measured.

 

The repair bill was covered by Progressive as a road hazard problem. (make a note of this!) They were terrific to me. I had to pay $1000 deductable and about @20 extra mileage for the tow. Much better than the $4,500 repair bill.

 

You know, I was happy to pay $1000 deductable because that's what my policy says I should pay. I was also happy because the chick on the phone offered it right up as an option. I told her I though BMW would get it but would let her know.

 

BMW made me very upset by not providing the Roadside Assistance I supposedly got when I bought this bike...part of the price. Further, they did not honor a legitimate warranty problem because of a technicality. Further, they did not express any interest whatever in finding the cause to the problem.

 

Since this happened, my local dealer dropped BMW in favor of Aprilia/Piaggio/Guzzi. I'm not sure they're doing much better with them. It's a tough business these days.

 

Play the warranty games according to their rules and you can get what you want from them.

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JayW

To be fair, one must acknowledge that aftermarket parts can and do sometimes result in failure of other factory parts (larger aftermarket windcsreens breaking their supports comes to mind). It is unfair to expect BMWNA to pay for such damage, though there is no harm in asking after full disclosure. Yes, you could put the OEM windscreen back on, take it in and play dumb, but that would be unethical.

 

Jay

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Bruce H

It's this sort of stuff that leaves a bad taste in my mouth about BMW. I just took my bike in for a warrenty problem, dealer calls and ask if they could replace the spark plugs. They didn't think that was the problem but wanted to rule it out. I had told them I had already done that but they still wanted to do it. The plugs wouldn't be covered undet warrenty as they were a "wear item". OK I says, give it a try. The deal said the cost to me for the four plugs the 1200 needs would be $84.00! I found them for about $7.00 each. Same brand, same plug in the same bos as listed in my owners book. NGK DCPR 8 ECK...

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