ABS, What is the big deal??

[Softtail]

I keep reading posts about canceling/turning off the ABS system. I don't get it! I have ridden everything from Cushmans to BSAs, Harley, Norton, Yahama and even an early Ducati. One of the things I remember most about all of them was how crappy the brakes were. When I was thinking about buying my 2002 R1150RT, I read a road test on the RT in Cycle World or some such magazine. There was a statement that sort of indicated that ABS brakes were for sissies and represented the beginning of the end for real motorcycles. Well, they probably do represent the beginning of the end of the bikes with shitty, fading brakes or no brakes at all. I have ridden my RT almost 30k miles and have yet to experience a problem with the ABS brakes. They take a little getting used to, and oh yes, a little finesse may be required!!!

[tomk99r11]

Don't know the problems with ABS, but the linked version, based upon what I have heard, leaves something to be desired. I personally like ABS on my 99 R11. I see no reason whatsoever to disable ABS. I bet sooner or later we will see a post about someone getting into trouble because they figured out how to disable the ABS. May get pounced upon, but disabling ABS is for dummies.

[Jim VonBaden]

Don't know the problems with ABS, but the linked version, based upon what I have heard, leaves something to be desired. I personally like ABS on my 99 R11. I see no reason whatsoever to disable ABS. I bet sooner or later we will see a post about someone getting into trouble because they figured out how to disable the ABS. May get pounced upon, but disabling ABS is for dummies.

 

Unless, of course, you are on a GS offroad!

 

Check out the ABS skid marks that led to my low speed drop.

 

Jim

[270]

Don't know the problems with ABS, but the linked version, based upon what I have heard, leaves something to be desired.

 

Don't believe everything you hear...

[Clive Liddell]

Jim,

Without ABS your GS would likely have been lying a few paces back but in a similar position?

[Haynes]

I believe that the harshest and most deserved criticizm of ABS is in reponse to those who claim that ABS is superior under all conditions without exception.

 

ABS has its place for those who like it, like me for instance. Those who rely on it shouldn't be riding.

[Jim VonBaden]

Jim,

Without ABS your GS would likely have been lying a few paces back but in a similar position?

 

I doubt it. As you can see I stopped before hitting the bushes. Had the ABS not been on, I would have stopped a few feet sooner and not hit the really slippery stuff at the end of the skid. Mostly I fell because the front washed out, no front brake being aplied, when it hit the slime.

 

Jim

[Bob Palin]

I keep reading posts about canceling/turning off the ABS system. I don't get it!

You need to be more precise in your question, I think few (on-road) people object to the principal of ABS, it's the fully linked, servo driven, ABS, braking model that BMW has adopted on some bikes that drives us nuts.

[RussInParis]

it's the fully linked, servo driven, ABS, braking model that BMW has adopted on some bikes that drives us nuts.

 

uh, SOME of us. I, for one, LOVE the fully linked, servo driven ABS brakes on our 1150RT. It was one of the reasons we bought the bike and so far has saved us from at least two 'situations'.

 

Russ

[Bob Palin]

uh, SOME of us. I, for one, LOVE the fully linked, servo driven ABS brakes on our 1150RT. It was one of the reasons we bought the bike and so far has saved us from at least two 'situations'.

 

Russ

Just wait until you find some ripples in the road at an intersection and it launches you out into the cross traffic.

 

I'd be interested to hear what situation these brakes saved you from where that wouldn't have occurred with unlinked, unpowered ABS brakes.

[Bill Dennes]

Fully linked brakes is not the point.

 

Servo assisted brakes is not the point.

 

Linked (instead of independent) ABS IS the point.

 

There is a thing called "Ice patch" behavior. The linked ABS senses that the rear wheel is losing grip and assumes that the bike is doing a stoppie (reverse wheelie). So, it releases the front brake altogether to allow the rear wheel to come back down. This can get set off by a fairly small but abrupt bump in the road when it's hit with the front brake lever pulled, but no rear brake pedal applied.

 

Yes, it seems way stupid to imagine an RT doing stoppies in the first place, but that's what the explanation is.

 

I'm a front brake guy, and I nearly took a flying lesson off a curvy mountain road due to "ice patch" behavior. I vowed to do everything I could to prevent that from happening again.

 

I have disconnected my ABS following Mike Worshum's steps. The brakes are still powerful and come on fast. They just don't let go when I need them most anymore.

 

[RussInParis]

Just wait until you find some ripples in the road at an intersection and it launches you out into the cross traffic.

 

I noticed that the first year we had the RT; coming down a mountain road there were ripples in the pavement, and as we slowed down for the stop we experienced the "launch" effect. But this is only at intersections where you are going to slow down anyway, and only at a certain speed. Since then, I just add that to my mental checklist; "if ripples, slow down earlier".

 

I'd be interested to hear what situation these brakes saved you from where that wouldn't have occurred with unlinked, unpowered ABS brakes.

 

The two were somewhat similar; avoiding smashing into a vehicle in front of me. One was my fault (I wasn't watching), the other was their fault. In both cases I jammed my brakes on instantly and hard, stayed upright and in control, felt the ABS cycle and avoided the accident.

 

...which brings up my point: a few years ago I had a similar case where I was NOT able to avoid the accident. It was with a non-ABS K75; a car swerved into my lane and jammed on the brakes right in front of me. My training at that point had been "brake hard, but not too hard so you don't skid and go under". Not using the last 10% or whatever of the braking power meant I hit. Not hard, mind you, but hard enough to be projected onto the pavement with my hand outstretched resulting in a new piece of metal in that arm after the doctors were through with me.

 

So I went looking specifically for a powerful ABS-equipped braking system on our next motorcycle. And found it in the RT.

 

For emergencies, it's much easier, just grab the front braking lever as fast and as hard as you can. The bike takes care of the rest; as it has proved to me at least twice so far.

 

YMMV

 

Russ

[AndyS]

If you were causing the ABS to chime in, then there is a pretty good chance you would have been skidding with it turned off. WADR, If you think you can do better than the ABS, why not try easing the pressure on the levers and not blame the system for the get-off? and why no change of direction during the skid?

Andy

[Bob Palin]

I'd be interested to hear what situation these brakes saved you from where that wouldn't have occurred with unlinked, unpowered ABS brakes.

The two were somewhat similar; avoiding smashing into a vehicle in front of me. One was my fault (I wasn't watching), the other was their fault. In both cases I jammed my brakes on instantly and hard, stayed upright and in control, felt the ABS cycle and avoided the accident.

OK, but in what way was that different from a bike that had independent, non-powered ABS brakes? You can grab most modern brakes full force and lock the wheels very easily.

[RussInParis]

OK, but in what way was that different from a bike that had independent, non-powered ABS brakes? You can grab most modern brakes full force and lock the wheels very easily.

 

...which for me would have been A Bad Thing; the linked, powered ABS brakes did NOT lock the wheels in my panic stops, which for me is A Good Thing .

 

That was kind of the point I was trying (and failing I guess) to make.

 

Russ

[Bob Palin]

OK, but in what way was that different from a bike that had independent, non-powered ABS brakes? You can grab most modern brakes full force and lock the wheels very easily.

 

...which for me would have been A Bad Thing; the linked, powered ABS brakes did NOT lock the wheels in my panic stops, which for me is A Good Thing .

 

That was kind of the point I was trying (and failing I guess) to make.

 

Russ

No, nO. You are missing my point, we originally started out with me saying I hated the linked servo ABS braking system, you said it was the reason you bought the bike and you loved it. I am trying to see what advantage you find in having linked servo assisted ABS brakes over regular unlinked hand powered ABS brakes. If you look back at my previous posts you will see that it is not ABS I dislike but linked, servo ABS as on the 1150RT.

 

Would I be correct in thinking that you really just want ABS and don't care about the linking and servo assist? (I kind of hope not because if so we have been thrashing about over nothing)

[RussInParis]

Would I be correct in thinking that you really just want ABS and don't care about the linking and servo assist? (I kind of hope not because if so we have been thrashing about over nothing)

 

Ah, right. Oops.

 

So then the answer would be "No".

 

In other words: Yes, I liked the idea of the linked brakes, and of lesser importance, the fact that they were assisted.

 

Although after having lived with the sero-assist I like this too: never need more than a couple of fingers for maximum braking.

 

Russ

[peterbulgar]

ABS was the reason I got my '04 Roadster, having suffered an unfortunate pavement encounter when I gave an R75/5 squeeze to the double disc brakes on a relatively-new-to-me Honda Pacific Coast. I still like having the ABS there, and I can live with the semi-linked brakes, but I really despise the unnecessary (IMHO) servo assist. I've had to learn not to use the front brake lever at very low speeds to avoid the initial grabbiness. It didn't help matters that I dropped the bike in front of my house about a week after I got it: I was pulling away from the curb at an angle, and touched the front brake lever to slow down a bit. The brakes are otherwise good, but the low speed behavior of the front brake leaves a lot to be desired.

peter '73 R75/5, '04 R1150RA

[teecro]

Would I be correct in thinking that you really just want ABS and don't care about the linking and servo assist? (I kind of hope not because if so we have been thrashing about over nothing)

 

 

 

Ah, right. Oops.

 

So then the answer would be "No".

 

In other words: Yes, I liked the idea of the linked brakes, and of lesser importance, the fact that they were assisted.

 

Although after having lived with the sero-assist I like this too: never need more than a couple of fingers for maximum braking.

 

Russ

Although after having lived with the sero-assist I like this too: never need more than a couple of fingers for maximum braking.

 

And here in lies the problem (to me anyway) with the Servo Assist system.

If (and when) the assist goes south you will have to let up some on the lever to get the other fingers up off the bar and on the lever also to do any kind of stopping with the residual braking.

In residual braking a couple of fingers ain't going to cut it.

Don't believe me? Try it.

Turn the key off at 60 MPH and find out what you have!!

Granted this action may only take a fraction of a second but that fraction of a second could be the difference of stopping in time for the idiot that turns in front of you, OR eating some sheet metal!!

[LDHack]

I have servo assist ABS, and they're great, in my experience. I ride gravel roads, super slab, two lane. Tromp on them on gravel, and they stop fast. Same on solid roads, or rock covered blacktop. Approaching a stop sign with speed when there is washboard is a bad move, ABS or not.

 

When you're blissfully tooling down the highway, and suddenly a critter appears in front of you, and you need to react and stop NOW, you don't always apply the front and rear brakes perfect. Servo assist ABS will stop faster than anything else in that situation. I know.

 

Deactivating the ABS or linked brakes will not necessarily save you in a hairy situation on gravel. Gravel roads do take some experience and respect to ride them safely at speed.

 

RT brakes are not designed for fire roads, so you need to be careful if you're riding fire roads with a RT. A 600 plus pound motorcycle is pretty hard to handle on a slimy road, no matter what the brakes or design of the bike, GS or street bike.

 

I'd never go back to the old brake systems. My GL1100 brake system sucks compared to my RT. I like my RT servo/ABS brakes much better than my previous K100LT with ABS, and of course better than the pre-ABS systems on my GL1100 and previous bikes. A always prefer the RT on a gravel road over the GL1100.

 

MikeS

[sgendler]

I can't help but notice that many of the folks who defend the linked, servo ABS most strongly have come from an older generation of bikes like a GL1100, K75, GL1500, etc. I wonder how much the perceived performance of the servo ABS system is actually just the performance of a modern braking system with sticky tires.

 

Almost without exception, the folks I know with a second bike that is a fairly modern sport bike would rather forgo the servo assist and brake linking. ABS is a nice thing to have on a touring bike when riding 2-up in the rain. I think it is appropriate on bikes with a touring/all-weather orientation. However, the servo thing is a waste of money and weight which makes the bike less safe because its failure mode is dangerous, and the linked brake ice-patch thing is a true hazard, depending upon the kind of roads you ride. Plus, it is so totally unnecessary. So while I wouldn't go out of my way to avoid an ABS bike, I won't ride a servo bike if I can avoid it. If I buy a 1200GS next year, I'll be pulling the servo/ABS system and installing a regular sport bike braking system. It's a shame, as I'd prefer to keep the ABS, but not enough to warrant keeping the servos and the linking.

 

--sam

[Jim VonBaden]

If you were causing the ABS to chime in, then there is a pretty good chance you would have been skidding with it turned off. WADR, If you think you can do better than the ABS, why not try easing the pressure on the levers and not blame the system for the get-off? and why no change of direction during the skid?

Andy

 

Yeah, BS I would bet you have never ridden in the mud before. If you have no ABS the rear wheel would still slide, its like riding on grease, but it would have stopped sooner than had the abs not been on.

 

Let's be clear, ABS is NOT GOOD off road in the mud!

 

Believe differently if you like, I could care less, but know what you are talking about before spewing nonsense.

 

Jim

[Green RT]

but I really despise the unnecessary (IMHO) servo assist. I've had to learn not to use the front brake lever at very low speeds to avoid the initial grabbiness. It didn't help matters that I dropped the bike in front of my house about a week after I got it: I was pulling away from the curb at an angle, and touched the front brake lever to slow down a bit. The brakes are otherwise good, but the low speed behavior of the front brake leaves a lot to be desired.

Touching the front brake with the wheel turned at slow speed is hazardous to verticality even without servo or linked brakes. My 99RT has neither and I have dropped it in that situation. With the wheel turned the forward motion pulls the bike straight to the ground.

[Bill Neander]

Isn't there a R1200GS Sport with no ABS, no servos, and no linked brakes?

[sgendler]

Isn't there a R1200GS Sport with no ABS, no servos, and no linked brakes?

 

If there is, and I can find a used one in England, then that's what I'll buy. Otherwise, I'll be constructing one of my own.

 

--sam

[russell_bynum]

Although after having lived with the sero-assist I like this too: never need more than a couple of fingers for maximum braking.

 

I can stoppie my CBR600RR (no servo assist) with one finger.

 

I can engage the ABS on Lisa's R1100RS and my R1100RT (no servo assist) with one finger.

 

Even Lisa's old K75 only took two fingers to lock the front wheel. (no servo assist).

 

You don't need servos to two-finger stop a modern sport-tourer.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Russell,

I'll agree on the no servo necessary thing. I can lock the front wheel on my S with just two fingers regardless of speed. However, that does not apply to a bike equipped with servos that has had a servo failure. The hydraulic linkage and ratio's are different requiring a great deal more force at the lever for the same brake output.

[AndyS]

This isn't meant to be a tit for tat post, but from the picture you show, I actually ride my RT on this sort of track fairly regularly, I am also reasonably well grounded in green laneing using an old XL185.

Don't get me wrong I am sure non ABS has got advantages, but for sure it has also saved me from a few get offs. I believe selectable ABS is the best option, but the bottom line is - I'm glad I've got it (on an RT).

Maybe if Trail riding is the important thing and ABS is a disadvantage (and is not selectable), then this could be the wrong bike for this use.

AndyS

[russell_bynum]

Russell,

I'll agree on the no servo necessary thing. I can lock the front wheel on my S with just two fingers regardless of speed. However, that does not apply to a bike equipped with servos that has had a servo failure. The hydraulic linkage and ratio's are different requiring a great deal more force at the lever for the same brake output.

 

Right. RussInParis, indicated that he likes the servos because they allow a max-performance stop with only two fingers. I was just saying that you don't need servos to do that.

 

I thought it was pretty cute when everyone went out and bought the new Servo bikes when they first came out in '02. They all raved about how it was awesome because they could easily stop the bike with just two fingers. I laughed because I've never owned a bike that required more than two fingers to lock the front wheel.

[peterbulgar]

Quote:

"I laughed because I've never owned a bike that required more than two fingers to lock the front wheel."

 

Two fingers? I'd never owned a bike that required less than two hands to lock the front wheel. That's why I got ABS on my R...

Peter '73 R75/5, '04 R1150RA

[russell_bynum]

Two fingers? I'd never owned a bike that required less than two hands to lock the front wheel. That's why I got ABS on my R...

Peter '73 R75/5, '04 R1150RA

 

First of all, ABS doesn't reduce the amount of effort required to reach maximum braking force, it prevents lockup in some situations. Servos reduce the amount of effort required to reach maximum braking force.

 

You have ABS on your R1150R to prevent lockup in straight-line braking situations. You have servo-assisted brakes on your R1150R to reduce the amount of effort required to reach maximum braking force.

 

In the second place....Granted...your R75 requires a healthy fistfull of front brake to get it to stop. But have you ridden any modern bikes other than your R? All of the sportbikes that I've ridden, plus the SV650, Bandit 600, VFR, FJR, all of the non-servo oilheads, the non-servo K1200RS, and the non-servo K1200LT can all be brought to the point of lockup (or ABS engagement, where equipped) with two fingers. I'm sure there are others, but those are just the ones that I've ridden.

[peterbulgar]

Russell,

(and anyone else who is still following this thread)

My point was that the bikes with which I was most familiar (an R75/5 and an R90/6 with single disc) required a very healthy squeeze to lock the front wheel, although I did take a low speed tumble once on my R90 on rain slick pavement. The newest bike I owned prior to my '04 R1150RA was a 1990 Honda Pacific Coast with dual front discs, and two months after I got it I locked the front wheel on dry pavement at about 50 mph when I was daydreaming, traffic slowed, and I grabbed an R75 handful of brake. That's why I figured that I was too old and stupid to deal with modern brakes unless I got ABS, and also why I feel that the servo-assist is overkill. I believe that we agree on that point. I also find the servo-assist to be grabby at very low speeds. I've learned to adjust, but everything else about the bike works so well, and is so user-friendly, that it is an annoyance.

Peter '73 R75/5, '04 R1150RA (servo side up)

[russell_bynum]

Peter,

I agree...the system that's on your R1150R is quite functional, and mostly unobtrusive in daily riding. I'd be OK with that system on my bike.

 

It just seemed like we were getting confused about what you get with ABS (the system resists wheel lockup during overzealous brake application when the bike is upright) and what you get with servo assist (reduced effort to get to max braking force and I wanted to ensure that everyone understands the difference.

[Jim VonBaden]

This isn't meant to be a tit for tat post, but from the picture you show, I actually ride my RT on this sort of track fairly regularly, I am also reasonably well grounded in green laneing using an old XL185.

Don't get me wrong I am sure non ABS has got advantages, but for sure it has also saved me from a few get offs. I believe selectable ABS is the best option, but the bottom line is - I'm glad I've got it (on an RT).

Maybe if Trail riding is the important thing and ABS is a disadvantage (and is not selectable), then this could be the wrong bike for this use.

AndyS

 

You ride your RT in those conditions? Even I am not crazy enough to do that.

 

I never said, or intimated, that ABS was a bad thing in ALL circumstances, just off road. If I didn't want ABS I wouldn't have gotten it on my GS.

 

My point was/is, you need to turn it off when riding off road, especially in muddy conditions. It will do far more harm than good in those conditions. If you are really an accomplished, or at least marginally experienced off road rider, you cannot argue with this sentiment.

 

Jim

[Turtlevet]

I believe this is the reason BMW put that little button on the handlebar control of the GS that supposedly switches off the ABS when off road to prevent front wheel wash-offs when hitting the slime.....

 

Alberto

 

'01 R-1150-GS - "Afreet"

'04 R-1150-RT - "Gadreel"

[Steve_Witmer]

You don't need servos to two-finger stop a modern sport-tourer.

 

Amen to that, Russell.

 

I took an ERC with my RT and there were a variety of motorcycles present (none were true sportbikes). During the braking exercise, my RT (with all bags attached) had by far the shortest stopping distances, even using only two fingers.

 

There's plenty of braking force available with two fingers on the non-servo bikes. The short stopping distances I got were partly attributable to having the confidence and willingness to use that force knowing that the ABS would prevent a lockup. Having servo-assist would not have made the stops any shorter.