Horrible noise

[AndyS]

R1150RT

I was out on Saturday and got stuck on a flooded road.

Tried to make my way through water but road suddenly dipped and engine suddenly stopped.

Wife and I got off and pushed the bike a couple of hundred yards out of the water (boy these bikes are heavy to push a long way)!

Decided not to try and crank bike until I had removed spark plugs.

Plugs out, push starter and bike squirs water like crazy out of plug holes.

Air box must be full.

Cover off...yep full of water….. time to find drain plug.

Found plug and emptied out air box.

Cranked engine until no more water came out, then just a bit more for good measure.

Let the bike stand to drain any other water out and off the rest of the bike.

When I see no more dripping, I refit spark plugs and crank engine.

 

NOW THE WEIRD BIT

 

While cranking engine with plugs out it sounds really sweet.

With the plugs in it sounds like I am cranking a box full of nuts and bolts.

Engine starts and runs quietly without missing a beat.

HUGE amounts of water being pumped out of exhaust.

I leave the bike on fast idle for a while 'till the steam from the exhaust subsides.

Everything is now up to temperature and running beautifully.

Shut the bike off while I pack away tools, clean up hands and generally get my life back in order.

Go to start bike again and once more it sounds as if I am cranking over a metal box of loose nuts and bolts - a truly horrible sound.

Once again, the bike starts very quickly and is very quiet and smooth.

Full power is available.

100 miles later, once home, plugs out and crank engine.

Now, on no load, the cranking noise is normal. Once I get the plugs in, the cranking sounds abysmal.

 

Any ideas?????

 

Andy

 

[Anton Largiader]

What does the engine oil look like?

[OoPEZoO]

What does the engine oil look like?

 

+1 My first thoughts as well

 

I'd get it drained out of there ASAP.........along with the tranny and final drive. If you were in water that deep, that means all of the vents were under water and there is a good chance you have water in the housings.

[T__]

Andy, a couple of things come to mind here.. First is the noise could be coming from the timing chains & guides due to engine oil that has water in it.. As mentioned above quickly change out ALL you lower fluids,, then once you ride a it a for a short time change them out again.. ANY moisture that is left in the trans,, final drive,, or engine can cause future problems like pitted bearings or corroded internal parts.. Be sure to get ALL the moisture out..

 

If after the oil change then running the bike a while doesn’t cure your cranking noises you might have a starter problem (I had a friend end up with a bad starter noise on his GS after he flooded it out in a river crossing,, turned out he twisted his starter shaft trying to use the starter with water locking the engine)..

 

If you still have the paper air filter element in the air box you might also replace that

as once the paper swells up it can be restrictive from then on..

 

 

 

The running quietly after starting is a very good sign..

 

 

Twisty

 

[AndyS]

I have checked the engine oil and there is no signs of water in it. I will change it, but I guess after my ride, any water in the engine oil would have boiled off.

As for the gearbox and final drive, well I doubt if that would have got hot enough at this time of year to get rid of the water in the gearbox & FD.

So, where is the gearbox breather? I would have thought that with this engine/gearbox/FD being designed to run in the GS series, having water at gearbox and above FD height should cause no problem. Am I wrong?

 

Anyway, back to the noise. The comment about the starter shaft being bent has me intruiged, Maybe all the water wasn't out when I cranked it first time. It might be the time to take it out and inspect it.

 

Andy

[OoPEZoO]

Here is a pic from when I rebuild my trany this year. You can see the transmission housing vent right below the fuel pressure regulator. If you managed to get water into the intake/airbox.......then the tranny was most certainly completely under water as well. If you stopprd moving while it was submerged, then I would assume you definitely got at least some water in.

 

[upflying]

You have a ticking time bomb. Any flooded vehicle is a total loss insurance claim. Despite the encouraging news of smooth running, many problems and failures await in your future. Unless you disclose the "accident" to a buyer, file a claim with your insurance company and get rid of that bike.

[Ken H.]

Is the noise as you are cranking or (just) as/after it starts?

[AndyS]

Is the noise as you are cranking or (just) as/after it starts?

 

It is purely when cranking under load. When plugs are out it seems to sound fine.

No nasty noises once the starter button is released.

 

Andy

 

 

[smiller]

It is purely when cranking under load.

Seems to be some kind of starter problem then. I'm at a loss to come up with anything else that could sound so bad during cranking yet disappear entirely once the engine starts.

[OoPEZoO]

You have a ticking time bomb. Any flooded vehicle is a total loss insurance claim. Despite the encouraging news of smooth running, many problems and failures await in your future. Unless you disclose the "accident" to a buyer, file a claim with your insurance company and get rid of that bike.

 

I wouldn't go that far......seems a bit extreme. As long as the important electronics didn't get submerged, I don't see the big deal. We've water logged plenty of dirt bikes over the years.......none of them were ever damaged. Dry it out, change the fluids, then determine if you have any further issues.

[AndyS]

I wouldn't go that far......seems a bit extreme. As long as the important electronics didn't get submerged, I don't see the big deal. We've water logged plenty of dirt bikes over the years.......none of them were ever damaged. Dry it out, change the fluids, then determine if you have any further issues.

 

I'm with you on that. I shall show due dilligence and then hopefully enjoy the ride.

 

Andy

[swfraley]

Any flooded vehicle is a total loss insurance claim. ....Unless you disclose the "accident" to a buyer, file a claim with your insurance company and get rid of that bike.

 

It may sound extreme, but this is an important point. In some states, it's illegal to sell a vehicle which has been submerged. Whether your bike qualifies may be open to discussion, but you should think hard before you just fix the starter (or whatever it turns out to be) and ride off like it never happened. This isn't just a dirt bike you're talking about.

 

I'm about to start looking hard for my next bike. This thread has me re-thinking the wisdom of buying used.

[AndyS]

.... it's illegal to sell a vehicle which has been submerged.

I'm about to start looking hard for my next bike. This thread has me re-thinking the wisdom of buying used.

 

2 points really.

Firstly I don't consider this as submerged.

In all honesty I believe I could pump as much water into any of the breathers with the use of a hose. (and in fact has made me more aware of how I hose the bike down now).

 

And as for worrying about the wisdom of a used bike, all you have to do is read posts on any forum from folk who have new bikes. Things can go wrong. Don't get paranoid.

 

Andy

[swfraley]

You were riding with the bike under its own power until the water was so deep it killed the motor. When you looked it over, there was water from the air box, which sits atop the motor, to the tail pipe. What more would have to happen before you'd call it "submerged?" More to the point, if you were looking at buying this bike from someone else, would you consider that it had been submerged?

 

Perhaps I have the story wrong about the original incident. . . .

[upflying]

I'm with you on this one. Any running engine that sucks in water instead of air probably locked hydraulically and may have damaged or bent a connecting rod. The OP posted that he ran it without changing the oil..another red flag. Sorry to say, this bike is on borrowed time. Unfortunately you can't sell it without disclosing the swim it took. If you don't, expect legal action when the new owner buys a bike that only runs for a short time. The only ethical way out of this is to make an insurance claim or assume the losses when major repairs are needed.

[OoPEZoO]

wow.....this is a fun group of worry warts.

 

Its a motor guys (and a pretty robust one at that), not some frail piece of delicate machinery........as long as the valves aren't bent, it didn't throw a rod bearing, and the motor runs fine once started.......everything should be just fine. Just change your fluids and track down your funnny noise (I would tend to agree at looking towards the starter). If there was major damage, you would have known it by now. It would be misfiring and running like complete crap.

 

The only time I would even consider calling my insurance company would be if someone hit me or stole my bike. Rat bastards already steal enough money from me every month.

[Boffin]

The OP is in the UK. We have different laws to you. Andy would possibly have a moral responsibility but no legal obligation to disclose.

 

Andy

[flars]

"You have a ticking time bomb. Any flooded vehicle is a total loss insurance claim"

So every time I run my bike in the rain I need to replace it? After all, the motor is 'running under water'. What about that rare occasion when I wash it? 'Submerged' is usually only applied to vehicles that are enclosed. Upholstery, carpeting, trunk space can all suffer hidden damage by water. Engines can be destroyed by trying to compress water, or extended submergence. The OP dropped his bike. He didn't run it full throttle into a canal, for crying out loud. There is nothing on a bike that will be damaged by dropping it in the water as long as the fluids are changed. Well, maybe the instruments, but since they are open to the air and get soaked everytime sits out in the rain, they should be fine also.

I would remove the starter and blast it with electrical contact cleaner. Then spin it using jumper cables to see if it is the noise source.

[KDeline]

O.K. then how did the boys in Long Way Round not destroy their bikes, they ran and pushed those things in water up to the bottom of the gas tank, pulled plugs, shot water out of the holes and the exhaust, then went on their merry way. They seemed to show all the problems they had, I would think they would have shown that had it been one. I'm I missing something?

[philbytx]

If it is a noisy start-up you have but the engine then runs smoothly after starting, I would remove your starter and check/lube the Bendix gear and bearing.

[OoPEZoO]

I'm I missing something?

 

 

Exactly my point, you're not missing anything at all. Its just a motor. People tend to forget how simple and yet durable motors are.

 

[karlheinz]

if that sorte thing should happen to me (submerging the engine)i would change the engine oil and all the rest of the fluids before getting on it and riding an other 100 miles to get home.I feel sorry for the poor sucker that ends up with this bike.Just my 2c

[karlheinz]

wow.....this is a fun group of worry warts.

 

Its a motor guys (and a pretty robust one at that), not some frail piece of delicate machinery........as long as the valves aren't bent, it didn't throw a rod bearing, and the motor runs fine once started.......everything should be just fine. Just change your fluids and track down your funnny noise (I would tend to agree at looking towards the starter). If there was major damage, you would have known it by now. It would be misfiring and running like complete crap.

you be better of to stick to electronics!I've worked on engines all my live and let me tell you no body in his right mind would ride that bike after only blowing out the cylinders for an other 100 miles.Lucky he got home.

The only time I would even consider calling my insurance company would be if someone hit me or stole my bike. Rat bastards already steal enough money from me every month.

I've worked on engines most of my life and believe the damage is done by not changing oils and riding for an other 100 miles.Only those that have the money,moto x racers etc. care less.And i am sure even those guys take care after a situation like this to change the oil and not continue riding.

[lvnvbiker]

OK, here he is a hundred miles from home with a drowned bike. After getting the bike out of the water he opens up his bag of tricks, pulls out a gallon of oil and a few quarts of trans and final drive fluid, gets out his bike jack and drain pans and drops all the fluids and changes them. After washing up and repacking his rolling garage he rides home... Folks have been riding the bikes home then changing out fluids for a LONG TIME, its a bike not the space shuttle. Change the fluids,track the noise(starter IMHO, no load no noise,load = noise, probly not engaging properly)fix it, start motor and ride the rubber off the damn thing, replace rubber do maint. repeat cycle till it dies! I've ridden bikes that have been drowned and revived before, realy not a bike deal. Best of luck with the noise, keep us posted I for one would love to hear what it turns out to be, just in case I play submarine with mine and have a similar issue.

[swfraley]

O.K. then how did the boys in Long Way Round not destroy their bikes, they ran and pushed those things in water up to the bottom of the gas tank, pulled plugs, shot water out of the holes and the exhaust, then went on their merry way. They seemed to show all the problems they had, I would think they would have shown that had it been one. I'm I missing something?

 

If I bought a used bike, then found out it had been given the LWR treatment, I'd be real mad.

[waylap]

The OP's not on here asking how to unload his bike, he's asking how to get it back the way it was. Sounds like he wants to keep riding a bike that's still riding pretty well. If and when he changes bikes is his own dance.

[Calvin (no socks)]

Worked on a diesel one time that chipped a ring gear tooth off during water intrusion from a damaged/leaking head gasket.. with starter off bump engine over very slowly and inspect ring gear teeth....

[AndyS]

The OP's not on here asking how to unload his bike, he's asking how to get it back the way it was. Sounds like he wants to keep riding a bike that's still riding pretty well. If and when he changes bikes is his own dance.

 

Hey Waylap, you are right on the money.

 

I feel sorry for the poor sucker that ends up with this bike.Just my 2c.

I don't intend to get rid of the bike for quite some time. So I guess that makes me the sucker.

 

If it is a noisy start-up you have but the engine then runs smoothly after starting, I would remove your starter and check/lube the Bendix gear and bearing.

 

Hey, thanks for getting us back on track - how to sort out what the problem is now.

 

I will take a look at the starter motor.

Thanks everyone.

 

Andy

[elkroeger]

I'll chime in on this one. I've got a bike that has overheated. All the motor oil ran out on the ground through a cam chain tensioner bolt hole (after it wiggled out). I toasted a rod bearing, but the bike still runs great. I replaced rod bearings for $600 cash, and again it still runs fine. However, the crankshaft bearing surface is buggered. It's not long for this world. Bike still purrs like a kitten.

 

God only knows what else has been damaged in there. To tear it all apart would exceed the value of the bike (as I can't do it myself). It's a ticking time bomb. I don't have insurance for this sort of thing. So since it still runs great, it's just my lot in life to run the thing until it croaks. I've already put 10K on it since the overheat. Maybe it'll go another 5K. Or 50K. Who knows? One difference here is that I have verified the damaged crankshaft. For Andy it's still an unknown.

 

Certainly it's unethical to sell a bike without disclosing the damage, real or imagined. But at the same time, this has always been the risk you take when buying used. Every bike on the road is a used bike. And this is why most of us buy used bikes with low miles. We look them over for abuse, size up the seller, look at his other vehicles, his house, his kids... whatever you can find that would signal that the guy's a bozo.

 

Again, Like me, it's now Andy's lot in life to run that bike until it croaks, or disclose the potential problem. For this discussion, I really don't see where anyone would get the idea that he doesn't understand this, or even that he wants to sell it. Somewhere the thread got off track. So ride the wheels off that thing Andy. Best of luck!

 

btw - It's one thing to say "500 miles back, I flooded the motor", but it's quite another to say "50,000 miles back, I flooded the motor".

 

That's my two cents. And it didn't cost you a dime.

 

 

[AndyS]

....I'll chime in on this one. I've got a bike that has overheated. All the motor oil ran out on the ground..... I toasted a rod bearing...,the crankshaft bearing surface is buggered..... God only knows what else has been damaged in there.... Andy it's still an unknown.

Somewhere the thread got off track. So ride the wheels off that thing Andy. Best of luck!

 

btw - It's one thing to say "500 miles back, I flooded the motor", but it's quite another to say "50,000 miles back, I flooded the motor".

 

 

When I drain the fluids and find alot of water in there I will be a little more sympathertic to some who are talking about ethics.

 

Elkroeger knows he has run the engine in a bad way.

 

If I find little-to-no contaminants, this situation will be totally different.

 

How many of you remove your oil filler cap and find white mayonaise - would you declare your engine a write off because it has water contamination?

 

No, for the time being I will concern myself with resolving the noise from the viscinty of the starter motor.

 

Andy

 

 

[Ken H.]

Not sure how this thread morphed into a moral debate and what have you (poor guy) but what the heck – I’ll vote in on the side of solve the noise, change the fluids, cleaning it up and it will be just fine.

[AndyS]

Results so far:

Engine oil - Minty fresh

FD oil - Arid and particle free

Gearbox - still to do.

Starter motor off...

a few questions.

1/. You'll see from the picture a chip in the drive gear. Would that generate much noise?

2/. The sprag clutch isn't the smoothest one I've ever come across, but when starting this is in 'lock' mode, so really shouldn't contribute to the noise.

 

3/. Is it OK to run some lube into the sprag housing. If so, any suggestions what.

 

4/. The free end armature extension moves left to right by about 3mm when out of its housing - is this normal?

 

Other good news from a quick glance is that the gearbox input shaft looks nice too.

 

 

[T__]

Andy,

 

1/. You'll see from the picture a chip in the drive gear. Would that generate much noise?_____Possibly but unlikely.. Really can’t tell much about the chip from the straight on picture..

 

 

2/. The sprag clutch isn't the smoothest one I've ever come across, but when starting this is in 'lock' mode, so really shouldn't contribute to the noise._____ That is if it really locks up fully under starter torque.. How smooth does it twist out the starter shaft?

 

3/. Is it OK to run some lube into the sprag housing. If so, any suggestions what.. _____ Depends on what’s in the housing now.. If it is already greased inside probably nothing will get in to help.. If it isn’t greased inside or is real dry inside then probably motor oil would be best..

 

 

4/. The free end armature extension moves left to right by about 3mm when out of its housing - is this normal?_____ Probably about normal as the other end bushing takes the side play out of the shaft..

 

Pull the starter drive off & look at the starter armature shaft for being twisted or damaged or the helical being damaged..

 

 

Twisty

 

[ragtoplvr]

That chip can make noise if any of it is raised.

 

What ever chipped the gear, may have also chipped the ring gear. I suggest you pull the plugs, and slowly rotate the engine (I but the transmission in high gear and move the rear wheel in the normal direction.

 

The play you have is normal. A new drive from http://www.euromotoelectrics.com/

is less than a starter. I would go ahead and remove the drive and partially assemble the starter, then check the shaft for runout relative to the drive end housing. Those shafts can bend, that can be what happened to chip the starter drive gear. If so then you will damage the ring gear if you continue to use the starter.

 

Also disassemble the planeteary gear reduction and inspect all the gears, failure of the outer gear is common and very noisy, for a while, then they get REAL quiet.

 

Rod

 

 

[StuGotz]

Me thinks the starter gear took the "big" hit when you started it after using your engine as a water pump. (you got's miles on the bike?, teeth look worn from age also.)

 

These Valeo starters are sloppy. ( My opinion )

 

Check Flywheel teeth.

Repair/Replace Starter.

 

 

You've done the fluids already.

 

Ride it...get it nice and warm, preferably on a long ride.

 

Replace fluids again after the "long" ride.

 

Good luck.

 

MB>

[AndyS]

Latest.

I have now drained the gearbox. The oil is as clean as it went in. Glad to say NO sign of any moisture.

I will disassemble the guts of the starter motor and see what I can find there.

Thanks All.

 

Andy

[MattW]

That's good - you now have a fully clear conscience

 

Good luck with the fix.

[OoPEZoO]

Latest.

I have now drained the gearbox. The oil is as clean as it went in. Glad to say NO sign of any moisture.

I will disassemble the guts of the starter motor and see what I can find there.

Thanks All.

 

Andy

 

 

Good deal man.

[Don M]

For what its worth, concerning a flooded engine and loosing sleep wondering when its going to explode.....I worked on the water here in the Puget Sound for a goodly number of years and once operated a boat that must have done something horrible in a previous life. Twice, on a Monday morning, I walked down to the dock and found the beast hanging from its mooring lines, completely under water. It had a big gasoline V8 in it driving an 11 inch jet....anyway, both times we drained the saltwater out of it out, pumped diesel fuel through the engine, changed all the fluids, and went back to work. It was still running strong several years later when we sold it to another State agency and as far as I know they got a good number of years out of it after that.

[kiwiaudio]

I'll bet the starter did not like its bath and was not throwing out all the way and grinding big time on the ring gear. You've probably damaged the ring gear at least as much as the starter pinion gear shows. Hell these things are noisy starters when they are in good shape !

[4wheeldog]

There is a big difference between submerging a cold, stationary engine and a hot one with some momentum behind it. Slamming pistons into incompressible water can ruin a lot of stuff instantly.

[AndyS]

Just a note to let you all know. All fluids uncontaminated (phew!).

Starter motor totally disassembled and took the opertunity to re lube the sprag with Molbdenum lubricant suspended in IPA.

Removed armature and checked magnets. All OK.

Commutator awash with flood water. Thorough clean and check brushes - all OK.

While starter motor out checked gearbox input shaft - thankfully no play WRT the clutch assembly.

Using thin bore, stiff clear plastic tube, lubricated splines to the best of my ability (again using Molybnenum lube powder suspended in IPA). This was using a pipette technique of placing tube into jar of diluted / suspended lube mixture. Placing thumb over free end of tube. Locate working end of tube over spline. Release thumb and allow the small quantity of lube to run onto spline.

Repeat for each of the splines.

Work the back wheel back and forth a while to allow the small quantity of lube to track along splines.

Ensure not too much of the lube is introduced. Allow IPA to evaporate off.

 

Starter motor refitted. everything buttoned up.

Go for start......

 

Yeharr - quiet.

 

I believe the majority of noise was caused due to the water around the commutator. This was worse with the spark plugs in because the starter moter was loaded and drawing more current. (Well, that's my guess anyway).

So, since the button up, we have been out on several winter rides and put about 500 miles on the bike and had quite a few re- starts. All seems well, and so I am one relieved rider!

[MattW]

Great stuff - glad it worked out ok Andy!

[OoPEZoO]

good deal