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"The Everybody Gets A Trophy" generation


Matts_12GS

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Although not entirely related, it kind of reminds me of this from several years ago.

 

I've seen a few articles about that topic over the past couple of years. Psychologists tell us that it's the best way to raise kids... so who are we to argue? I mean, it's not like they're really our responsibility or anything.

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I hesitate to endorse any sweeping generalization, but I will say that esteem-oriented rules in our local youth recreation leagues (i.e. no keeping score, equal playing time for all, etc.), and the parents' tendency toward apathy about these rules and their consequences, were a weighty factor in my decision to quit coaching kids basketball a few years ago. My view is that youth sports can teach valuable life lessons, but not if the participants are isolated from the consequences of competition, winning and losing. Only once in more than five years of coaching did a game ever end with both teams thinking they won, and in that case nobody really knew the score. I just couldn't abide that mentality anymore.

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There was so much crap on that page that I found navigating the text of that article like an easter egg hunt without the fun. I grew annoyed and gave up, thus confirming the theory, I'm sure. :)

 

+1

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Who is John Galt? :grin: 'nuff said? Maybe not...

 

Having recently chucked my teaching career and attending MMI full time I have made a few observations along these lines. At 45 years of age I fall just slightly above average age of the student body in general and there is definitely a difference in attitude and work ethic among the older and younger students. Whether or not that just has to do with life experience and maturity I could not say, but it is an obvious difference.

 

One of the reasons I got out of teaching is because we now have gen-xers raising millennials and the lack of personal responsibility is somewhat alarming.

 

On the other hand the cry of "kids these days," is almost as old as history itself.

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Who is John Galt? :grin: 'nuff said? Maybe not...

 

Yeah, that book has recently ruined my life and confirmed much of philosophical outlook. Reading it for the first time at 44 is F'in me up!

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My opinion counts for nothing here, but I think that there are slackers in every generation who don't want to compete because they know they are losers (but don't want to prove it).

 

 

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Here's an easier to read layout of the article.

 

I find it ironic that the author condemns the kids born between the mid-1970s and 1990s for not striving enough while in the same breath praising their parents' generation for being outstanding role models.

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I find it ironic that the author condemns the kids born between the mid-1970s and 1990s for not striving enough while in the same breath praising their parents' generation for being outstanding role models.

 

There's two edges to that, like most arguments....

 

Just because there are role models doesn't mean they are followed completely.

 

In my case (born 1964) I saw my dad start several businesses during times of layoff or other malaise (he worked for a government contractor) and almost all of those ventures ended badly. I have spent much of my working life in the military, but have built 3 different businesses of my own in the last 10 years. Two of those three were successful, but I bailed out and sold them too early to realize much profit or wealth gain from them.

 

Neither of my brothers (9 and 8 years older) one one has done anything entrepreneurial, but none of them has ever turned into more than a tax deduction.

 

So, where I see opportunities to explore at every other bend, my siblings see nothing but hardship. I don't know if it's ideological or pseudo generational given the differences in our ages. #1 son is a political centrist who's spent the last 25 years working for the government or government contractors, and I'm looking left to see Jesse Helms. #2 stands between the two of us.

 

It's interesting though...

 

I have a feeling that a lot of these millenials will have some kind of a "Yuppie Remorse" in their 30s and realize that they have to do it on their own. Or, they'll expatriate and complain alot while drinking cheap beer smoking worse cigarettes.

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Up front I appologize if I come off as a little defensive... probably because I am a Millenial myself.

 

My wife and I were talking about this. I think there is a natural generation "skipping" or a cause and effect. People are sucessful in many cases because they are overcompensating for something. So if a "boomer" works hard, long hours and spils their children, what motivation will their "millenial" children have to do the same?

 

I think many genreations say the same thing. Thsoe in their 20's & 30's will always seem irrational at that age, then they get serious in their 40's raise their families, then in their 50's and 60's they write articles about how lazy and coddled the next gernation is. Wheat were the "boomers" doing when they were 20-30? Oh...ya... being hippies, protesting wars, and not building enterpirses. Most were older when they became sucessful.

 

Obviously plenty of generalizations are bing made here. There are plenty of sucessful 40 somthing that have build major corporations, professional practices and the like by themselves.

 

I think it's a little rediculous to call a group spanning almsot 30 years a single generation, while the "boomers" are only spanning 10-15 years and make a comparison. It's also unfair because the parents of "boomers" grew up in the Depression and fought the largest global war in history. Boomers themselves fought a very bloody, unpoular and drawn out conflict in Vietnam. The character of a generation is often defined and built on it's struggles. The "millenials" haven't been tested that way.

 

The next generation follows the example of the previous one. Perhaps the climb over anyone to suceed attitude was a bad example and taught the current genration to value money, greed over personal relationships and ethics. Look at the housing bubble that was created largely by the current generation trying to get rich quick to live up to their parents high standards. At the bottom end, most blue collar workers make half what their parents earned. The middle class has dissapeared and by and large the "boomers" in the top 1 have done an excellent job of being sucessful and hoarding all the wealth by outsourcing and driving down wages and benefits.

 

People learn from example, so if the older generation is critcal and skeptical of the younger generation, they need to look in a mirror.

 

 

 

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Who is John Galt? :grin: 'nuff said? Maybe not...

 

Yeah, that book has recently ruined my life and confirmed much of philosophical outlook. Reading it for the first time at 44 is F'in me up!

 

I suppose you are refering to "Atlas Shrugged"? Is it worth reading? I've thought about picking it up a few times, but the 1000+ pages keeps scaring me off. I've become accustomed to instant gratification and have a fear of commitment...........love HBO On Demand.....big books scare me :grin:

 

Seriously though......is it a good read?

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Lets look back further on previous generation and look at their struggles.

 

Millenials - Children of Boomers

Boomers - Children of WWII veterans that grew up in the Depression

Golden Generation - Children of parents from the "Roaring 20's and WWI veterans". Also many are children of immigrants.

WWI Vets, Roaring 20's Prohabition, etc. (sound a lot like boomers) - children of parents born at end of Reconstruction, Victorian period. Children of early immigrants. Children of settlers movign out west.

Victorian Genration - Children of Civil War veterans.

 

 

I"m hardly an expert but it keeps going on. Each genration has a conflict or challenge tjhat defines them. The current genration will be challeged by the current economic crisis, new threats of terrorism and learning again to live within their means.

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Joe Frickin' Friday

Who is John Galt? :grin: 'nuff said? Maybe not...

 

Yeah, that book has recently ruined my life and confirmed much of philosophical outlook. Reading it for the first time at 44 is F'in me up!

 

I suppose you are refering to "Atlas Shrugged"? Is it worth reading? I've thought about picking it up a few times, but the 1000+ pages keeps scaring me off. I've become accustomed to instant gratification and have a fear of commitment...........love HBO On Demand.....big books scare me :grin:

 

Seriously though......is it a good read?

 

Did it on audio CD several years ago, almost entirely while driving to/from Chicago for Ron's Xmas party. If you're commuting by bike this solution probably won't work for you though.

 

One way or another though I would recommend it.

 

Or you could just wait for the movie.

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Who is John Galt? :grin: 'nuff said? Maybe not...

 

Yeah, that book has recently ruined my life and confirmed much of philosophical outlook. Reading it for the first time at 44 is F'in me up!

 

I suppose you are refering to "Atlas Shrugged"? Is it worth reading? I've thought about picking it up a few times, but the 1000+ pages keeps scaring me off. I've become accustomed to instant gratification and have a fear of commitment...........love HBO On Demand.....big books scare me :grin:

 

Seriously though......is it a good read?

 

You can save a lot of time by reading the Wikipedia entry.

 

My own opinion is that it's hard to take a book seriously in which a character gives a speech that goes on for 56 pages. (Would anybody actually sit through that?) Atlas Shrugged provides intellectual justification for that immature adolescent stage of "Nobody can tell me what to do" that not everybody grows out of. Other than that . . .

 

If you want a really short version, read Atlas Shrugged Updated for the Current Financial Crisis. It gives you the gist of it.

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I've thought about picking it up a few times, but the 1000+ pages keeps scaring me off.

 

Reminded me of Charley Brown. He picks up a school textbook, turns to the last page, then puts the book down, while muttering '865 pages! I can't possibly read that all tonight.' Or something to that effect.

 

Back to the point, sort of. I recall that many years ago, a high school in Michigan decided that any student who wanted to play in the band could do so, with no screening for ability. Reasoning: we wouldn't want the little darlings to deal with 'failure' at such a young age. Deafness, okay, failure, not okay.

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Atlas Shrugged provides intellectual justification for that immature adolescent stage of "Nobody can tell me what to do" that not everybody grows out of. Other than that . . .

 

Eebie, shouldn't you be keeping a low profile in case the governor calls? :rofl: I know you might think that folks seeking self determination and valuing the fruit of their own labors a foreign concept in this day and age, but I relish it. Galt's Gulch, here I come!

 

Keith, I have read a few of Rand's other books, and someone in the collective of the board hung the title "Randian" on me last year so I felt especially compelled to go through the book.

Like Mitch, I'm doing it on CD right now (downloaded from my local library!!!), and I find it very entertaining.

 

To me, the book is largely a parable told in a novel. As such, I am willing to interpret a lot of what is read there with a bit of chagrin as I look at the direction that elected leaders want to take the country. I'm halfway through it, and find it very intoxicating/addicting, however, I am quite the political junkie in case you hadn't guessed that.

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My own opinion is that it's hard to take a book seriously in which a character gives a speech that goes on for 56 pages.

In my opinion, if you've been paying attention for the previous 1100 pages, you can skip that speech. Or, you could just read Galt's speech and get the distilled version of Rand's message.

 

Either way, I do think it's worth reading.

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Why I'm adding fuel to your fire, I have no idea, but this was interesting - David Walsh, "No: Why Kids - of All Ages - Need to Hear It and Ways Parents Can Say It."

 

Not a bad article.

 

Parenting is one of those things that I have come to love and hate at times. The rewards are tremendous, the affection limitless and the responsibilities innumerable.

 

All that said though, my dad was right about spanking, it does hurt the parent more than the child. My 6 year old got his first real spanking this week. It broke my heart, warmed his butt and corrected his attitude immediately.

 

I guess I just don't understand parents like those in the article that won't discipline. It's such a disservice to the child not to mention a burden on the society at large.

 

Maybe that's why I do it; I don't like handing things I should be responsible off to anyone else.

 

But, then again, I'm selfish...

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I know you might think that folks seeking self determination and valuing the fruit of their own labors a foreign concept in this day and age, but I relish it. Galt's Gulch, here I come!

 

Self determination and valuing the fruit of one's labors are admirable qualities, in perspective and when balanced with other qualities such as charity and recognizing that there are benefits from interdependence. Randroids have an unfortunately tendency to view self determination and valuing the fruit of one's labors as ends in themselves and to take them to extremes that are unrealistic in a modern complex society. Objectivism is a reaction to, and mirror image of, Marxism, and both elevate purity of theory over realism. Both are simple answers to complicated questions, and as Keynes said, there is a simple answer to every question, but it's usually wrong.

 

One of the best examples I've seen recently was a doctor who, immediately after the election, said that to prevent the evil parasitic government from taking another 3% of the fruit of his labors in taxes, he was going to give up his practice, sell all his possessions, and move his family to a primitive cabin in the woods and live off the land. Which, of course, puts him much worse off than he would be if he just paid the 3%. But he would have self determination. And he would really value the fruit of his labors as he waited for his potato crop to come up.

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My own opinion is that it's hard to take a book seriously in which a character gives a speech that goes on for 56 pages. (Would anybody actually sit through that?)

 

Eebie, they do in Cuba, so I'm told by folks who lived there. But I'll bet you can't buy Ayn Rand down there.

 

Pilgrim

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Objectivism is a reaction to, and mirror image of, Marxism, and both elevate purity of theory over realism. Both are simple answers to complicated questions, and as Keynes said, there is a simple answer to every question, but it's usually wrong.

 

I both agree and disagree with that statement. Is Objectivism a mirror image of Marxism, I would definitely disagree with that. Is it oversimplified, IMHO yes.

 

Since we are adding fuel to the fire here anyway I offer this quote which sums up my belief more eloquently than I could.

 

"Although I would eventually grow into and, largely, out of Ayn Rand's orbit, here writing was still a significant stepping stone, or way-station, for me, a black and white starting point along the journey to a more nuanced philosophy and politics."

 

Neil Peart "Traveling Music"

 

And no, I am not trying to start yet another Neil Peart thread.

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Self determination and valuing the fruit of one's labors are admirable qualities, in perspective and when balanced with other qualities such as charity and recognizing that there are benefits from interdependence. Randroids have an unfortunately tendency to view self determination and valuing the fruit of one's labors as ends in themselves and to take them to extremes that are unrealistic in a modern complex society. Objectivism is a reaction to, and mirror image of, Marxism, and both elevate purity of theory over realism. Both are simple answers to complicated questions, and as Keynes said, there is a simple answer to every question, but it's usually wrong.

 

 

...it seems to me that you are either quoting or paraphrasing what some uniformed person has told you about Objectivism. I can't see how you could have come up with such a statement if you yourself had spent anytime on the subject.

 

:dopeslap:

 

 

Wiki

 

 

"Objectivism holds that reality exists independent from consciousness; that individual persons are in contact with this reality through sensory perception; that human beings can gain objective knowledge from perception through the process of concept formation; that the proper moral purpose of one's life is the pursuit of one's own happiness or rational self-interest; that the only social system consistent with this morality is full respect for individual rights, embodied in pure laissez-faire capitalism; and that the role of art in human life is to transform man's widest metaphysical ideas, by selective reproduction of reality, into a physical form—a work of art—that he can comprehend and respond to."

 

 

 

Simple??????????????????????????????????????

 

Mirror of Marxism???????????????????????????

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Get out to watch some grade school wrestling this fall. I've yet to see a trophy for just trying, those go only for winning or a podium finish. If the kid gets a pin, the judges hand the kid a safety pin with beads. That goes on a knit hat in team colors, and the kids wearing a hat full of pins on the sidelines is making a statement to his competition.

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Why I'm adding fuel to your fire, I have no idea, but this was interesting - David Walsh, "No: Why Kids - of All Ages - Need to Hear It and Ways Parents Can Say It."

 

Not a bad article.

 

I see some of the problems arising out of working single or divorced parent homes. The earlier generations often had a stable family, and mom was at home raising the children and home after school to help with homework as they grew older.

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Self determination and valuing the fruit of one's labors are admirable qualities, in perspective and when balanced with other qualities such as charity and recognizing that there are benefits from interdependence.

 

David, I think you're completely missing the point. Interdependence is important in the concept of a team, be it a sports team, a corporate team, or a tug of war. When those folks are aspiring for a common goal, dominating a marketplace, creating the best widget, or the most widgets or whatever... They are interdependent and yet each realizing the fruit of their own labors. The interdependence I speak of unites us as individuals, your ways makes us little more than a crutch holding each other up. I care not to be my brother's keeper, but I will be my brother's assistant.

 

I'll get in trouble with the accountants for this but what the hell. When I read what you've written, to me it looks at the world being of a "Zero sum," wherein for one person to have more of something it must come from someone else. Instead, I view the world as to having an infinite opportunity to create a bigger "whole." wherein anyone can have as big a piece of things as they are willing to work for.

 

That you mention the need for charity as a "balance" strikes me as funny. What you have written seems to imply a mandate for charity to maintain "perspective." Mandatory "charity" is extortion.

 

Randroids have an unfortunately tendency to view self determination and valuing the fruit of one's labors as ends in themselves and to take them to extremes that are unrealistic in a modern complex society...

 

I'll let you stoop to name calling David. But hey! Thanks for playing.

 

That you find someone who wants to keep what they have earned extreme and unrealistic in this modern, complex society bothers but does not surprise me. The climate of moral relativism that has come about in this country (my favorite example is our 42nd President's impeachment being "just about sex" and not a big deal as long as the markets are strong) disturbs me. The death of individual liberty is seemingly at the door and far too many people seem to care more about what happens on American Idle (pun intended).

 

...One of the best examples I've seen recently was a doctor who, immediately after the election, said that to prevent the evil parasitic government from taking another 3% of the fruit of his labors in taxes, he was going to give up his practice, sell all his possessions, and move his family to a primitive cabin in the woods and live off the land. Which, of course, puts him much worse off than he would be if he just paid the 3%. But he would have self determination. And he would really value the fruit of his labors as he waited for his potato crop to come up.

 

Citing your example, how can you call this person worse off? His choice is quite obviously not yours, but it is not without merit. There are endless stories of medical professionals fed up with malpractice insurance, or licensing fees, hassles, trial lawyers, government regulation/interference, insurance companies, ad nauseum who have decided to pack it in and go sell Amway or used cars or anything else.

They have chosen to take a different path up the same mountain. BFD. Hell, look at how many people do not work in the field of their college major. Does that make their choices less valid? I take what you have written to mean that a person should not be free to make a decision on how much of their earnings to pay the imperial federal government as penalty for their success.

 

I'll let the others discuss mirrors and objectivism, I'm not smart enough to speak in labels and generalizations like that. I just like concepts. It's pretty obvious that you and I won't agree about much, but I'm certain that we'd make a cocktail party lively!

 

 

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Who is John Galt? :grin: 'nuff said? Maybe not...

 

Yeah, that book has recently ruined my life and confirmed much of philosophical outlook. Reading it for the first time at 44 is F'in me up!

 

I suppose you are refering to "Atlas Shrugged"? Is it worth reading? I've thought about picking it up a few times, but the 1000+ pages keeps scaring me off. I've become accustomed to instant gratification and have a fear of commitment...........love HBO On Demand.....big books scare me :grin:

 

Seriously though......is it a good read?

 

It is a commitment, but DEFINITELY worth the read...even John Galt's speech....Best to listen to RUSH's 2112, which was dedicated to Ayn Rand while reading...ok ok that is just my thing :grin:

 

But seriously recommended.

 

Now if I can just finish Moby Dick..... :dopeslap:

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It is a commitment, but DEFINITELY worth the read...even John Galt's speech....Best to listen to RUSH's 2112, which was dedicated to Ayn Rand while reading...ok ok that is just my thing :grin:

 

But seriously recommended.

 

 

Yeah, but 2112 was to one of her other books, "Anthem." A much easier read, and as cool a story. :thumbsup:

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It is a commitment, but DEFINITELY worth the read...even John Galt's speech....Best to listen to RUSH's 2112, which was dedicated to Ayn Rand while reading...ok ok that is just my thing :grin:

 

But seriously recommended.

 

 

Yeah, but 2112 was to one of her other books, "Anthem." A much easier read, and as cool a story. :thumbsup:

 

True and True and I concede the point.....plus, I am impressed that you know that!! :thumbsup:

 

BTW...after reading that back, due to the vagaries of e-mail it may have sounded like a left-handed compliment, but it is actually high praise! :thumbsup::clap:

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It's pretty obvious that you and I won't agree about much, but I'm certain that we'd make a cocktail party lively!

Can I come? I'll bring the scotch!

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Harry_Wilshusen
It's pretty obvious that you and I won't agree about much, but I'm certain that we'd make a cocktail party lively!

Can I come? I'll bring the scotch!

 

 

Shouldn't you be bringing Canadian Mist?

 

 

 

Harry

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