Any PMI PMP

[Ken H.]

 

I’ve been one for quite awhile, and have always found PMI to be rather esoterical and rather heavy on processes theory, while light on the humanistic (vs. mechanicalistic) aspects of project management. As for example expounded in Agile (Project) Management Framework theories.

 

So I’m wondering where other PM’s / PMP’s interested in alternatives to the rather traditional (and IMHO with significant shortcomings) linear task-based approaches to PM ‘hang out’ (e.g. - a good online forum) to discuss / explore / exchange ideas, etc?

 

This would be one spot (not so sure how interested the overall BMW riding community would be though), but I don’t know how many PMP’s are routinely here.

 

[BULLman]

All I read was "blah blah blah-blah blah blah-blah blah."

 

I haven't the foggiest what you're talking about

 

I just hope I'm not missing out on something important [like bacon]

 

Hope you have a lively discussion.

[Jake]

All I read was "blah blah blah-blah blah blah-blah blah."

 

Hijack cont'd... we need an interpreter.

 

 

/Hijack

[russell_bynum]

Chump don't want no help, chump don't get no help.

 

 

I work with PMP's daily. Most of them seem more interested in making sure that projects are done "by the book" than making sure that the end result is actually what it was supposed to be and that the customer is satisfied. I don't know if this is a PMP thing or not, but this wasn't a problem before we started hiring PMP's.

[Ken H.]

I just hope I'm not missing out on something important.

You’re not, let me guarantee you. It’s one of those things that the people whom I am attempting to reach out to would clearly know what I was asking.

 

But the 20-second explanation: PMI = Project Management Institute, PMP = Certified Project Management Professional. Agile Project Management is a body of theory that promotes the concept that endeavor are more successful when you emphasize that the people are more important the process in accomplishing the goal. “Your manage property, you lead people” is one of the mantras for example.

 

[randy]

I am prince II certified. I enjoyed the training, and based upon the classroom teachings I think the Prince II process and discipline is very good. But as noted above, I worked for someone on a very large project, and it was executed using Prince II methodoligy and too often (in my opinion) the structure was the focus and not the goal. On the other hand, (and I probably will mess this up) but someone once said, never underestimate the power of one focused person. Many times on the above mentioned project, I had a task already completed, done and documented, and I received a "bad" report because I was not working within the project frame work. I got very frustrated as for 80% of the project I was ahead of schedule, and was constantly repremanded and then at the end of the project when 80% of my work was needed, and I could not get the resources I needed, I ended up working twice the hours I needed if they had just paid attention to my e-mails. So overall my actual experience with prince II was not very positive.

 

Overall I believe I benefited from the training, but honestly, I ended up leaving about 6 weeks after I got my certification and currently at my new job I do not use Prince II

[bakerzdosen]

All I read was "blah blah blah-blah blah blah-blah blah."

 

Hijack cont'd... we need an interpreter.

 

 

/Hijack

I think you just answered your own question...

 

From an engineer's perspective, PMP's are those that (get to?) say "NO" to the customers without making them feel bad.

[BULLman]

I just hope I'm not missing out on something important.

You’re not, let me guarantee you. It’s one of those things that the people whom I am attempting to reach out to would clearly know what I was asking.

 

But the 20-second explanation: PMI = Project Management Institute, PMP = Certified Project Management Professional. Agile Project Management is a body of theory that promotes the concept that endeavor are more successful when you emphasize that the people are more important the process in accomplishing the goal. “Your manage property, you lead people” is one of the mantras for example.

Okay, I get now

 

It must be a Canadian Thing

[Ron_B]

I just hope I'm not missing out on something important.

You’re not, let me guarantee you. It’s one of those things that the people whom I am attempting to reach out to would clearly know what I was asking.

 

But the 20-second explanation: PMI = Project Management Institute, PMP = Certified Project Management Professional. Agile Project Management is a body of theory that promotes the concept that endeavor are more successful when you emphasize that the people are more important the process in accomplishing the goal. “Your manage property, you lead people” is one of the mantras for example.

 

 

 

Note to self:

 

Scroll down before wasting time googling.

 

 

[Mister Tee]

Streamlined Project Management (SPM) integrates PMI with the PMP. A certified PIMP allocates resources on a return economics basis while utilizing receivables due tracking assets.

[RussL]

Having a PMP is no guarantee that a project will be run right or well. Throw on top of that, management's constant pressure to pull project timelines in, under allocation of resources, and all the PMP's in the world won't help you. I know that doesn't address the original question, but I had to get that off my chest.

[Aluminum_Butt]

I am one, and I agree about the esoterical/theoretical comments. It's a framework, and the process does help me keep the larger picture in mind occasionally. And, it lets me communicate with my corporate parent's PMO - which has its own branded methodology. But, frankly, I got it because it looks good on my resume.

 

If you find a good place to exchange ideas, I'd be interested.

[lawnchairboy]

thanks,

 

coffee just came out my nose

 

chris

[John Ranalletta]

I bet their conventions are a blast.

[Matts_12GS]

I just hope I'm not missing out on something important.

You’re not, let me guarantee you. I

 

That's all I needed to read...

 

Besides, my brother is one of those type people, and listening to him speak on the subject puts my feet to sleep...

 

Please, all you PMI members go back to quietly keeping your spreadsheets and taking notes during your never ending conference calls so that we "resources" can get some work done about the enterprise, eh?

[Ken H.]

Besides, my brother is one of those type people, and listening to him speak on the subject puts my feet to sleep...

Well I'm one of those type people, and listening to me speak on the subject puts my own feet to sleep...

 

Which was kind of my part of my orginal point.

 

Please, all you PMI members go back to quietly keeping your spreadsheets and taking notes during your never ending conference calls so that we "resources" can get some work done about the enterprise, eh?

Granted, you resources would be doing a lot...

 

Of something...

 

Of course it would be all the wrong work at all the wrong time!

[Matts_12GS]

Only according to your ill managed plan...

 

haven't you figured out that .275 hours on your plan will happen when this resource actually feels like doing that task?

[Ken H.]

Only according to your ill managed plan...

 

haven't you figured out that .275 hours on your plan will happen when this resource actually feels like doing that task?

Which was kind of my part of my original point. Exploring the whole concept (that BTW I have always believed in) - that the people are more important than the process. Fortunately PMI is starting in and of themselves to recognize that more. But the field of study, “Agile Project Management” seems to be further down that path than PMI.

 

But anyway, it doesn’t seem like my original question will be answered here, but thanks for the conversation!

 

[SANTA]

Ken; i spent time reading the "book" and am involve with a local group, but i find that there's no substitute for hands-on experience... "them that can; do... them that can't; teach (or write a book)"...

 

over the years on the multi $million/billion projects i have particpated in and directed, we used the pmp framework, and even some of our clients are now insisting that you can't be a project manager unless you have pmp... bolderdash. pmp is no substitute for experience.

 

but when it comes time to make the really hard decisions, the PMP is no substitute for a P.Eng.

 

 

[tallman]

Somebody needs to buy a vowel.

 

Now, it sounds like all three have a little sumptin in common...

[stubble!]

Ken, I'm interested in hearing what resources you run across, if you don't mind. I'm not a project manager per se, but more and more my role has PM aspects to it.

 

[TyTass]

Ken,

 

I'm finally working on getting certified - though I seem to be doing so sort of after-the-fact as I've been managing technical publications developmnent & revision projects since I left the Navy 11 years ago.

 

I agree with your premise, though have run no projects under Agile.

[Ken H.]

Ken; i spent time reading the "book" and am involve with a local group, but i find that there's no substitute for hands-on experience... "them that can; do... them that can't; teach (or write a book)"...

 

over the years on the multi $million/billion projects i have particpated in and directed, we used the pmp framework, and even some of our clients are now insisting that you can't be a project manager unless you have pmp... bolderdash. pmp is no substitute for experience.

 

but when it comes time to make the really hard decisions, the PMP is no substitute for a P.Eng.

 

My intent wasn’t to start a debate about the pros/cons of certified project management, or even the value of (or in some people’s opinion lack of) the project management discipline. Rather I was just soliciting sources of additional info, in particular on Agile Project Management vs. PMI.

 

But I agree, ‘book’ experience is no replacement for hands-on.

 

Those quick to condemn the PMI PMP designation as just being a paper ‘academic’ designation, should however be aware that part of the certification process requires documenting a min. of 5 years and 7500 hours of non-overlapping hands-on project experience.

 

[Matts_12GS]

Sorry Ken, had to hijack this, it's my nature.

 

I considered doing the certification a few years ago, but all the folks I interacted with locally were doing it as resume fodder not in the interests of professional pride/advancement or the interests of doing their jobs better.

It left me more than a little flat.

 

I do think that there is a place for the methodology, though.

[Ken H.]

Ah, but what’s wrong with "resume fodder?" Or to use a more diplomatic term - resume building? If it opens up (employer’s) doors, isn’t that in itself worthwhile, other motivations (or lack of) aside?

 

Beyond the shadow of a doubt in my mind, when I finally decided to look for a job here, those three little letters resulted in several offers I wouldn’t have without them. The screeners/interviewers were even saying so, ‘We now only consider PMP’s for our PM positions.’

 

I had already heard that PMI PMP designation was much more recognized in Canada than in many parts of the US, even though it is a US organization, but the extent of it surprised even me. The company I’m doing work for right now is desperate for more PM’s, but they won’t even interview someone without the PMP designaton. Right, wrong or otherwise.

 

[bakerzdosen]

Ah, but what’s wrong with "resume fodder?" Or to use a more diplomatic term - resume building? If it opens up (employer’s) doors, isn’t that in itself worthwhile, other motivations (or lack of) aside?

Well, I think Matt's coming at it from a technical perspective. Looking at it as an engineer, I can't stand working with people who have padded their résumé with certifications just to look good to their next employer. And frankly, I wouldn't want to work for a company that demands certifications. You either know the stuff or you don't.

 

We had a customer who demanded such certifications of their new-hires, and they went through employees in very short order, and their systems were always just jacked up. But they got exactly what they wanted: Employees with all the right certifications, but with no real world experiences. And they had systems that were fully buzz-word compliant, but they just didn't work well at all.

 

I asked one of their "fully certified" employees how he managed to get hired (I probably was a bit more politically correct than that) and he simply replied that he was driving along listening to the radio when he heard an ad for some technical school offering fast and easy computer certs. He took the class, passed the test, and applied for and got the job not 6 months later. I'm not sure why he left, but 6 months later, the next disposable employee had taken his place.

 

Anyway... that's my 2¢ on résumé building with certifications from a technical perspective: They serve the employee, but not the employer.

[TyTass]

I think I know what you're getting at but ... one could so argue any degree program, including an engineering degree, communicates little understanding or accomplishment for that matter. Degrees do not alone encapsulate the ideal candidate unless you're looking for an entry-level person. A PMP at least attempts to show a person's experience level apart from a 2-page narrative.

 

If you are saying that a company does itself ill by limiting it's choices with requirements, well I would tend to agree with you. That's why I find advantage in listing my ideal candidate as well as minimum requirements for any job I list.

 

Whether a person has degrees and/or certs or no degrees and/or certs, a long narrative of a person's work history doesn't guarantee anything either. No matter what we don't hire resume's. Any company trying to fill a position still must ensure the candidate actually has the knowledge & skill sets the candidate implied in their resume, and meet what they need.

 

We all know lots of companies have ineffective hiring processes, and you have just describe a good example of what not to do. But it doesn't follow that a certification was the root of the problem. Laziness and ignorance on the part of the company was.

[Unhofliche_Gesundheit]

re: "... certifications from a technical perspective: They serve the employee, but not the employer."

 

actually i think the PMI is being served best of all.

 

I pay 250$ a year to call myself P.Eng and the only 'benefit' seems to be a very uninteresting magazine. (I would quit but i want if for my resume - which i might need to 'use' soon). i get a ton more out of my BMWMOA membership at a fraction of the price.

 

Yah it is nice to learn concepts (like risk management) but I think the value of the conceptual tools espoused are over-rated .Whereas thinking and common sense and communication are under-rated and when projects are in trouble is the lack of the latter rather than lack of fancy 'PMing' that is root-cause (oh yes root cause analysis - oops ).

 

[Ken H.]

I think I know what you're getting at but ... one could so argue any degree program, including an engineering degree, We all know lots of companies have ineffective hiring processes, and you have just describe a good example of what not to do. But it doesn't follow that a certification was the root of the problem. Laziness and ignorance on the part of the company was.

That’s the core right issue there. If you hire based on anything on a resume, you get what you paid for – a resume, not (necessarily) an effective employee. ALL a resume should / needs to do is get you an interview. The rest is up to both an effective screening process and an effective candidate. That’s the vetting out process.

 

And I did say that the PMI PMP designation opens doors, it shouldn’t IMHO ‘prove’ anything more. Same for any other degree, certification, etc.

 

[bakerzdosen]

it shouldn’t IMHO ‘prove’ anything more. Same for any other degree, certification, etc.

Agreed. Unfortunately, some companies didn't get that memo...

[TyTass]

Email ... they didn't get the email (to bring the phrase to current technology).

[Matts_12GS]

the main difference being that there are few colleges offering boot camp versions of their EE degrees where dozens of places offer bootcamps in any number of certs.

 

That's especially true as Ken said when people are hiring off keywords in an OCR scan.

[TyTass]

You're correct. Most colleges won't recognize one's experience (e.g., military schooling and experience) and apply it to one of their degree programs, but some do and that number is increasing. Depending on one's experience, some will in turn award degrees. Does that mean that kind of degree is worthless because the student didn't pay their dues in at campus like everyone else? Similarly, should online degrees count the same? What about those from lesser schools? The fact is, most colleges do acknowledge most of these sorts of degree programs, though many (if not most) are notorious for rejecting "loose" credits from other intitutions, but that's another story all about a scholastic/accrediting organizations becoming temporarily blind to make money.

 

I think PMI is sort of like that except it's a very new in the accreditation scheme of things. A PMI designation attempts to communicate a standard of learning and experience. Being new, that standard is going to be somewhat loose. No matter whether it can be abused or not, the question really is ... "what has that person really learned and what experience do they really have" when they have a PMI designation.

 

Ken's point is valid ... the purpose of a resume is to obtain an interview. Nothing more should be obtained from the resume. That doesn't mean a person should lie on it, but I disagree with the notion that PMI communicates nothing and is some new form of the Emporer's Clothing.

 

 

[John Ranalletta]

Yah it is nice to learn concepts (like risk management)

People manage risk in two ways. Some "manage" it by killing it, i.e. avoid risk through inaction or mistakenly falling back to what worked yesterday or placing their faith in "process". Others manage it by weighing outcome probabilities and are comfortable making a bet on the highest probability outcome. They are also comfortable with the knowledge that the journey will produce unknown events that cannot be foreseen today.

 

Not knowing precisely what PMI PMP entails, this conversation suggests it focuses on process as the path to the desired result. That can work...some of the time. When it doesn't, the tactical process has to be abandoned in favor of strategic decision making.

 

An airline pilot "manages" risk by strict adherence to process and protocol. None of us likes to think about the inflight emergency for which the pilot has no process or protocol. Luckily, the industry has sufficient historical data that allows it to eliminate most if not all of those emergencies via hardware, software and training. I'd offer the majority of airline pilots are process/content experts who manage risk by eliminating it, i.e. the "PMP" of the skies.

 

A PMP who acts like the pilot might bring good processes and protocols to a flight with a known destination, but might be hard put if tasked with making the determine where the flight should terminate, successfully.