Insulating an attic: DIY?

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

We're having the roof on our house replaced some time in the next few weeks. One of the contractors has proposed to blow extra insulation into the attic in the middle of the whole job, for an additional $900; he says it'll be easy enough to remove one of the can vents on the roof and feed the hose in from there.

 

My dad has suggested this is an easy DIY project, for maybe $50 worth of insulation and a $50 blower-machine rental from some place like Home Depot. He and my mom did this many years ago on their house.

 

My mom recalls the experience less fondly. Because of a problem with the machine they rented, they could only use a short output hose, so they placed the machine in their master bathroom. Dad was up in the attic spreading the stuff around, while Mom was in the bathroom feeding bags of insulation into the machine. Apparently the machine did not provide perfectly uniform suction, and so insulation regularly got chuffed backwards, and by the end of the whole chore, both she and the enter master bathroom were well-coated with the stuff.

 

No matter what, $900 seems like a lot; I'd expect something like 10 years of reduced utility bills to recoup that cost. So if it's to be done, only DIY (for $100-$150) makes sense to me.

 

So...is it worth the effort to do it myself? Anyone here done it? Is it a miserable, messy job, or is it a manageable affair?

[StuGotz]

Nasty job, you wanna cover yourself head to toe, leave no area uncovered. Especially use a good quality mask, not the cheap paper ones...And protect areas in the house from the massive amount of dust you will create.

 

Expect to spend ALL day doing this.

 

Cover any recessed lighting fixtures that protrude into the attic area, unless they are approved for direct contact with insulation. Do not cover any furnace flues or vents.

 

I prefer roll-in batts if you expect to do any remodeling in the near future.

 

Good luck,

 

MB>

[bakerzdosen]

Long story short:

 

I tried to figure out why my townhouse was just REALLY hot. One of the main problems was that the HVAC system ducting was just VERY poorly designed, so I had a 2nd A/C unit installed for just the top floor. While they were up there, they had to cut through a firewall to get access to the whole attic. As it turns out, the attic wasn't insulated AT ALL in that area (about 2/3 of the unit.)

 

So, after (several months) they were done putting the A/C unit in, I blew in more insulation.

 

Renting the machine (I went to Lowe's as the Home Depot near me didn't have a rental unit) was easy. I bought $120ish or so of insulation and the "rental" was free. I just went crazy (I hate heat) insulating. I literally doubled the amount of insulation needed for "code." It took me one Saturday of work with my brother helping. It made a mess in the room/closet where the blower was located below the attic entrance, but nothing a vacuum couldn't fix in 20 minutes.

 

I'm sure I made up the difference for what it cost in one summer - if not sooner.

 

The only complaints that I have are

 

• I should have done it sooner

 

• I didn't cut through the other firewall and insulate the rest of the attic, so because of this, the area I insulated can get to be a bit hot in winter as it insulates so well.

 

• I messed up the molding around the attic entrance with the "hose" going up there, so if it ever bugs me enough or when I sell it, I'll have to fix that. (No biggie but I'm not sure knowing what I know now if there was an easy way to avoid it.)

 

Suggestions:

 

• Do it in winter. Being in an attic in summer isn't fun. At all.

 

• Fork out the money and buy a decent mask if you don't already have one. I had one of the cheaper paper masks on when i was up there once and was coughing for a week. I spent $15-$20 on a painters mask or whatever and have never regretted it.

 

Edit: Oh yeah, I agree with the above "head to toe" comment. Long sleeve shirts are a must. I wouldn't go to the ski mask extreme, but a hat won't hurt.

[Joel]

I just faced a similar decision for the new Team Schnauzer HQ. Depending on the square footage and R value, that $900 quote might be competitive enough to forego the potential DIY savings. Without knowing those factors, your estimate of the cost of materials seems really low to me. Keep in mind that you need to blow in more depth than indicated to get the real R value after the material dries and settles.

 

For comparison, I just paid $1,200 to have new cellulose blown in over a ~1,400 sf attic, at a R-44 insulation factor. The cost was higher than the installer's normal charge because about 1/3 of the ceiling is vaulted (harder to access), there was a large skylight to work around, and there was a surcharge because our location is remote (~25 miles out of town). The upcharge for R-44 over R-38 was about $100.

 

My compelling reasons for not going DIY were: (a) time (I've currently got a LOT of other projects going on that I could more easily do) and (b) physical limitations (with a 4/12 roof pitch, it is WAY easier for a scrawny [and younger] guy to crawl around in our attic than for me at 6'4", 220# and nearly 46 years old).

 

Even with professional installers and good machinery, there was still some mess, so if they could enter through your roof rather than the living area of the house, the job could turn out much cleaner.

 

The DOE website has some information on estimating costs depending on the characteristics of your home, and your ZIP code. Might be worth a look.

[Ken H.]

I’d be leery of a ‘stuff a hose in a can vent and blow’ approach. When adding insulation you want to be sure you don’t cover any vents, in particular soffit air input vents. You need to be in control of where it goes.

 

ISFA the DIY machine, if it is working properly you should easily be able to leave the machine outside and run a really long hose off of it to the attic space. Regardless though (of who does it), it is a dusty job so a house cleanup will be in order afterword.

 

Also if you DIY, plan on having LOTS of light up there. Once the blowing starts it’s easy to loose sight in the cloud in a hurry.

 

Also, also, have some sort of a “start / stop” communication set up with the person running the machine. A pull string or something. You’ll be making a lot of start/stops as you reposition, let the dust settle to see where to add / go next, etc.

 

As mentioned, sealed clothing and a good respirator are a must.

 

[russell_bynum]

Just invite Washout and the other guys over and knock it out in a weekend.

[John Ranalletta]

Tell the contractor you'd really like to have him insulate, but $900 is more than your budget can stand; then ask if he can do it for less. Try that for starters. There's no question you can do it, but it can be a real mess.

 

If you do it yourself, there are cardboard inserts to place between the roof rafters to prevent covering soffit vents with insulation.

 

A less messy but more laborious method is to use batts or rolls.

[Twisties]

The machines I've seen don't blow very far, so I'd also be leery of doing from a point on the roof. Also it would seem that it would be quite hard to get an even spread doing it that way. When we had our roof off we cut out a 2' line of sheathing at the ridge and let them blow insulation from all along that line. I don't think it was spread very evenly at all from what I've seen. Our attic can not be entered directly, so this was the only way for us.

 

Jan

[tallman]

Batts/rolls +2.

If you blow...

Do not inhale, the long term effects could be much more expenxive than paying a pro.

Our blown in settled after a number of years, not sure that would be the case w/batts.

Double up on disposable clothing, cover every nook and cranny, do not climb into bed until your completely deloused (the insul litl boogers itch like crazy) twice.

Check your local utility and see if they have a low interest loan available.

We've done that and paid for HVAC/insul/hot water heater/ on utility bill at 2%.

See if your local utility will do a free energy audit, ours does, and they provide a great insight into how, what when where, of doing and expected savings.

Don't inhale.

Good luck.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

The machines I've seen don't blow very far, so I'd also be leery of doing from a point on the roof.

 

There is attic access from one of our upstairs bedrooms; my assumption was that the hole in the roof was just a convenient/clean entry point for the hose, and the contractor would be in the attic to ensure even distribution.

 

Likewise, if I do the job, I'd be in there too.

 

I'll be looking into the DIY cost in more detail; if it's stupid-expensive that might kill the whole thing, but even if materials are cheap, here's the thing of it all. If I do it myself, I'll be the guy up in the attic. I've got a good quality p100 respirator, and I'd probably buy a disposable painter's suit, so I don't mind getting ridiculously dusty myself up in the attic. The two keys for a go-ahead here have to do with my wife. I need to ensure her that:

 

a)she won't have a miserable dusty time feeding insulation into the machine, and

 

b) any mess occurring in the living space will be very limited in scope, e.g. to the area around the bedroom closet containing the attic accesss.

 

Obviously these are quite subjective, but from your own experience, would you say these two criteria can be met?

 

This is a two-story house; the attic in question is above the second floor. Can the blower machine be located outside on the ground, or would it have to be upstairs right next to the attic entry point?

 

 

[rob1100r]

Try using the encapsulated stuff (avail at Home Depot, etc)

 

http://www.specjm.com/commercial/insulation/polyencapsulated.asp

[brennaman]

I did mine myself this past summer. First I made sure I had a long enough hose so that the machine stayed outside. I would pay someone (to include cleanup) if you could not rent one with a long enough hose. Second I did not blow fiberglass, it was a recycled paper product. Much nicer to work with. All of our blown insulation had compacted over the past 12 years, so I put this over it. As far as the soffit vents, after I was done I cleaned them from the outside. Come to find out, the holes in the soffit were very small, and most were covered up from the original insulation. I went a couple of steps further, and had a radiant barrier put in, and a solar fan on the roof to pull out all of the hot air. After all was done, on a 95 deg. day, my attic was not much hotter than the outside air temp. With good soffit vents, and good airflow, cooling the house was not an issue. Now I am curious how well it helps to keep the heat from escaping this winter. Good luck.

[motoguy128]

Couple notes on blowing friable materals: Blowers in general and good for horizontal runs, not so good with vertical, so you may have trouble blowing it 20' off the ground to a second floor attic. Make sure not to feed the stuff too fast, you need to keep a good air ratio to maintain velocity, or the hose will plug. Minimize the nuber of bends and the radius of bends and kepe the hose as short as possible.

 

 

Personally: I'd have it done professionally. This seems like one of those dirty jobs, that's best left to others. You however, can get other quotes instead of having the roofing guy do the work. In my house for example, the roof is fairly flat so you can't really walk around in the attic. Rolled batting isn;t really an option. Fortunately the previous owners blw in some extra insulation. I about least 14- 16" of blown cellulose.

[eddd]

I'm a real DYI guy, but I'd think long and hard about this. Beyond the drawbacks already mentioned:

 

You need to move around from joist to joist while you blow it in. Wrong step = drywall repair and insulation in the house. If you are not small and agile, moving around up there becomes very tiring leading to short cuts like not getting to the best locations for maximum coverage.

 

Do you have proper soffit vent protection? You need to have

rafter vents that extend above the insulation level.

 

I've not seen the rental type of equipment, but I really doubt it even comes close to the power of the commercial units which generally use powerful gasoline engines.

 

 

 

[xoomerite]

We had an insulation contractor, not roofing or anything else, quote a price for turnkey insulation installation up to R49 for less than I could buy the materials. The usual references and contracts, or course. The power company cut our level bill by $20 per month after a few months. The insulation paid for itself in a touch over two years. based solely upon the reduced electric bill. This says nothing about the heat, because we have natural gas. So we saved this money solely on the air conditioning.

 

You might check the actual costs of materials for this job. I doubt that $100 would buy the materials for much of an attic.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

You might check the actual costs of materials for this job. I doubt that $100 would buy the materials for much of an attic.

 

Quite right. I measured what I had (attic area, and depth of existing loose fiberglass fill), and came up with 24 bags of cellulose insulation required. Contractor had spec'd 25, so that's pretty cool. Anyway, at $9 a bag, that's $225. I haven't checked with Home Depot or Lowe's yet, but from what I've been reading, it seems that they might let you borrow the machine for free if you buy enough insulation. Don't know if I'm over that threshold with 25 bags or not.

 

Anyway, for $225 instead of $900, I'm leaning toward DIY. But still doing research. Thanks for all your input so far, folks.

[keithb]

Mitch

I did it myself and I used bats. I went to Home Depot and bought the insulation and then hired two laborers to help me install it. We don't have a large house so it only took about 4-5 hrs. and I think I paid the guys $7-$8/hr. and this was about 7-8 years ago. It made a big difference. Prior to my insulating the house it had NEVER been done since the house was built in 1964. Can you believe that?

KB

P.S. 4 years ago I installed a brand new heating system in the house including duct work. I did the whole job myself accept for lifting the unit up to the attic. I really like learning how to do this stuff and it certainly does not hurt to save some big bucks on these types of projects.

[John Ranalletta]

If you valued your time at only $25/hr, how much do you have invested in "research"?

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

If you valued your time at only $25/hr, how much do you have invested in "research"?

 

Are you making a case for rational ignorance?

 

Hard to say how much time I've spent so far. Maybe $100 worth, assuming your $25 rate. But whether I DIY (DIM?) or not, understanding the whole thing has value for me. It's not the same as, say, spending an hour trying to find a hotel room that's $5-$10 cheaper.

[John Ranalletta]

I'd value your labor at a helluva lot more than $25, but I know where you're coming from. I've been rationally ignorant on many, many occasions.

[AviP]

If you valued your time at only $25/hr, how much do you have invested in "research"?

 

Are you making a case for rational ignorance?

 

Hard to say how much time I've spent so far. Maybe $100 worth, assuming your $25 rate. But whether I DIY (DIM?) or not, understanding the whole thing has value for me. It's not the same as, say, spending an hour trying to find a hotel room that's $5-$10 cheaper.

Or as in my case, where being unemployed means that every penny saved is a penny earned.

[John Ranalletta]

say, spending an hour trying to find a hotel room that's $5-$10 cheaper.

...so, you've traveled with Knappy, too.

[StuGotz]

[ I went to Home Depot and bought the insulation and then hired two laborers to help me install it. We don't have a large house so it only took about 4-5 hrs. and I think I paid the guys $7-$8/hr.]

 

And of course these were documented workers?

 

MB>

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

I'd value your labor at a helluva lot more than $25, but I know where you're coming from.

 

For me (and I suspect anyone else, really), there's a lot that goes into a decision like this. Apart from the initial research (which will happen whether or not I do the job myself, and ultimtely stands on its own as satisfying self-edification), I look at the hours of manual labor involved and the money saved by DIY, and come up with a dollars-per-hour figure. I then weigh that labor rate against the nature of the work (e.g. I will never do automotive exhaust replacement again), and the satisfaction I obtain from doing the work myself.

 

A lot of that calculus is messy and very subjective, but if my wife and I can do the job in 3-4 hours (which is looking pretty likely in this case) and save $600, that's pretty hard to ignore.

[skinny_tom (aka boney)]

If you valued your time at only $25/hr, how much do you have invested in "research"?

 

I have a hard time with valuing my time. If I'm not at work, then I'm not earning anything. So my spare time is worth $0/hour. Anything I do myself instead of paying someone is "money in the pocket" and not "money not earned."

[skinny_tom (aka boney)]

[ I went to Home Depot and bought the insulation and then hired two laborers to help me install it. We don't have a large house so it only took about 4-5 hrs. and I think I paid the guys $7-$8/hr.]

 

And of course these were documented workers?

 

MB>

 

Hey now. That's not a fair question since the contractors are probably using the same labor pool as the DIY'er.

[tobyzusa]

If you valued your time at only $25/hr, how much do you have invested in "research"?

 

Are you making a case for rational ignorance?

 

Hard to say how much time I've spent so far. Maybe $100 worth, assuming your $25 rate. But whether I DIY (DIM?) or not, understanding the whole thing has value for me. It's not the same as, say, spending an hour trying to find a hotel room that's $5-$10 cheaper.

 

There are just some jobs that it just makes sense to pay others to do, and this is one of them. Real question here is how much value do you place on your health? Yes, you can take precautions, yes, I have done insulation work, but it is a dirty, nasty, job, fraught with hazards.

 

I suspect one of your unstated concerns is - will they do a quality job? Will they stick a hose in my attic and blindly blow some stuff around? Why not tell him you agree to their contract with the condition that you want to inspect it before they leave the site, and if unsatisfactory, they must remedy? Inspection is one thing, but blowing all that "stuff" around in a closed environment for an extended period of time is quite another.

[Ken H.]

I have a hard time with valuing my time. If I'm not at work, then I'm not earning anything. So my spare time is worth $0/hour. Anything I do myself instead of paying someone is "money in the pocket" and not "money not earned."

Yeah, I’ve never understood the concept either. During the time someone is not actually paying me for my time (or could be) seems to me my time is “worth” $0.

 

OTOH, if during that ‘idle time’ I’m doing something instead of paying someone to do it, my time is worth (i.e. - I’m gaining) whatever they would have charged me to do what I’m doing myself.

 

E.g. – While I’m DIYing on my bike my time is worth quite a lot, while I’m mowing the lawn (assuming I had a lawn to mow); not so much!

 

[/hijack]

 

[tallman]

I'd value your labor at a helluva lot more than $25, but I know where you're coming from.

 

For me (and I suspect anyone else, really), there's a lot that goes into a decision like this. Apart from the initial research (which will happen whether or not I do the job myself, and ultimtely stands on its own as satisfying self-edification), I look at the hours of manual labor involved and the money saved by DIY, and come up with a dollars-per-hour figure. I then weigh that labor rate against the nature of the work (e.g. I will never do automotive exhaust replacement again), and the satisfaction I obtain from doing the work myself.

 

A lot of that calculus is messy and very subjective, but if my wife and I can do the job in 3-4 hours (which is looking pretty likely in this case) and save $600, that's pretty hard to ignore.

 

First 3-4 hours is way too low, for all the comings and going involved.

Second, when you hire your wife as a subcontractor, it will cost you waaay more than you might imagine.

[motoguy128]

I think the concept is that since your free time is finite, there's a natural idea to apply you value at work towards your free time, since to obtain more free time you might in theory need to buy more vacation.

 

I can see the arguement both ways.

 

For me, I do value my time off to a cetain degree and I don;t liek ot take on jobs that I'm not comfortable doing. translation: jobs that I'll likely screw-up and be mad at myself, frustrated in general or end up paying someone else even more to fix it.

 

 

[pbharvey]

if my wife and I can do the job in 3-4 hours (which is looking pretty likely in this case) and save $600, that's pretty hard to ignore.

 

You need to factor in the fact that she will be itchy and um untouchable for a period of time. Assuming you are doing this on the weekend, you're shooting yourself in the foot. In addition, if you she helps you do that type of job, you owe her big time. Chick flicks, shopping, etc. Your immediate future could be bleak.

[motoguy128]

if my wife and I can do the job in 3-4 hours (which is looking pretty likely in this case) and save $600, that's pretty hard to ignore.

 

You need to factor in the fact that she will be itchy and um untouchable for a period of time. Assuming you are doing this on the weekend, you're shooting yourself in the foot. In addition, if you she helps you do that type of job, you owe her big time. Chick flicks, shopping, etc. Your immediate future could be bleak.

 

Plus she will likely allocate at least $500 of the $600 in savings to her personal spending allowance, meaning that all your effort only yields $100.

[keithb]

"That's not a fair question since the contractors are probably using the same labor pool as the DIY'er."

 

You got that right Boney. The only other time I have used laborers was to dig a 5'D x 20'L ditch to replace a sewer line.

[pbharvey]

2009 Federal tax credits are available for 10% of the material costs. See www.dsireusa.org

[Deadboy]

I did mine with the roll out batts in my last place after getting the blown in stuff vacuumed out (previous owner was a heavy smoker and it really smelled). I don't think it is too difficult but I for one would avoid the blown in stuff as every time you have to go into the attic it is just that much more unpleasant....did my small house in a few hours and was sure it was done right which was worth it to me....

[Fugu]

 

So...is it worth the effort to do it myself? Anyone here done it? Is it a miserable, messy job, or is it a manageable affair?

 

I've been guilty this week already of missing facts present in your initial post in a thread, but I've looked twice and I'm not seeing the answer to this question:

 

Do you need more insulation in the first place?

 

You identified a payback term of ~10 years, was that off the cuff or based on something?

 

If you need it for comfort or conservation, I'd vote DIY. You'll do a better job than them. Even if you took a day off work, you're probably looking break even or better for a superior job.