Crash at the Dragon-Caught on Film

[Roadwolf]

Don't know if anyone saw this or not, but a lesson to be learned about keeping a good line in a turn and staying in your lane.

 

http://www.photoreflect.com/pr3/orderpage.aspx?pi=0HH600X4030000&po=0

 

[Perlova]

Does the photographer sit there and take those photos or is there an automated camera setup?

[ESokoloff]

....... a lesson to be learned about keeping a good line in a turn and staying in your lane.

 

 

I have to wonder if the rider became distracted by the photographer?

[upflying]

Does the photographer sit there and take those photos or is there an automated camera setup?

I'll bet the photographer sets up in a turn notorious for crashes..he sits there and waits for the noobie with a new bike, blue jeans and street shoes to biff it.

Don't know anything about the Dragon but don't complain when LEO's set up "speed traps". I am sure they are tired of taking crash reports.

[SageRider]

but don't complain when LEO's set up "speed traps"...

The bike was barely moving at impact. A speed trap here would have done no good. Taking the money spent on speed enforcement and putting it into rider education might have a more positive effect in this type situation...

[upflying]

but don't complain when LEO's set up "speed traps"...

The bike was barely moving at impact. A speed trap here would have done no good. Taking the money spent on speed enforcement and putting it into rider education might have a more positive effect in this type situation...

Most states have basic speed laws that says cannot drive faster than is safe. My bet is that rider was exceeding the basic speed law when he crossed over the double yellow line and hammered that innocent Blazer.

We have mandatory driver education for young people before they can get a license. That doesn't stop young people from becoming a statistic.

[SageRider]

My bet is that rider was exceeding the basic speed law...

Sure he was. If he was moving and hit the Blazer he was violating that law (Very convenient, isn't it???).

Of course if he was a better educated rider, it is likely that he would not have overcooked the corner, stood it up under braking, and gone over the center line in the first place.

 

[RussL]

Education is useless unless it is accompanied by maturity and deliberate application.

[lvnvbiker]

That was a clearly a prime example of target fixation, with a healthy dose of stupid added in for good measure. Who goes canyon carving in sneakers? I will ride in shoes occasionaly for a quick trip to the corner store or on a quick test ride after working on a bike, but other than that it is a boot of some sort and most usualy proper riding boots.

[AZKomet]

That was a clearly a prime example of target fixation, with a healthy dose of stupid added in for good measure. Who goes canyon carving in sneakers? I will ride in shoes occasionaly for a quick trip to the corner store or on a quick test ride after working on a bike, but other than that it is a boot of some sort and most usualy proper riding boots.

 

 

Yep, that shoe was history.......good boots are a must.

[bobbybob]

That was a clearly a prime example of target fixation, with a healthy dose of stupid added in for good measure.

 

 

++ On the target fixation. I have ridden the Dragon many times and there are always several photogs set up along that stretch. You come up on them suddenly and it takes real concentration to keep your eyes on the road and not look at the people standing on the roadside. If you DO get distracted, you'll end up a statistic--there's just no room for error on that road.

[Kinsley]

Many corners on the Dragon can be "cooked", but most photographers set up where they have decent light and can get a shot with the rider coming towards camera and a background with curves in it.

A telling clue to this shot that stands out to me is that the rider is going away from camera, so I'm thinking the photographer knew things were most likely going to go bad by the rider's approach to this corner the photographer knows very well, so he just panned and clicked.

I also don't doubt that the rider was somewhat influenced by the photographer being there and probably wanted to see a great shot of himself, so he could email the link to his buddies on a DB similar to this one.

[Firefight911]

probably wanted to see a great shot of himself, so he could email the link to his buddies on a DB similar to this one.

 

Mission accomplished!

[Dick_at_Lake_Tahoe_NV]

++++ on "target fixation." It does't look like he was going all that fast, since the bike and rider just stayed right near where the contact took place. Rider didn't even attempt to apex and was nearly straight up when he hit the blazer.

[Twisties]

I can't see how there is enough information in that one shot to conclude that target fixation has anything to do with this. Can someone explain what they mean by that? I thought target fixation was looking yourself into a collision with a fixed object, or in the case of following a lead rider, following that rider off the road, generally an extension of the "you'll go where you are looking" concept.

 

In this case the guy collides with an oncoming vehicle and the rider is clearly across the center line. That's about all I can conclude from the photo. The bike's geometry and the rider's position are clearly altered by the impact, and give no clue as to what he was looking at or doing prior to the collision. If you look you can see that his torso is starting into the bed of the body of the SUV, whilst his head lags behind. I can't reach any conclusion at all regarding his line, lean angle, where he was looking, speed, or any other factor prior to the impact. All we know here is that he blew the turn, crossed the center line, and hit a truck/SUV.

 

Jan

[David]

It's hard to tell from the sequence of stills, but it looks like the SUV did nothing to evade, either. The vehicle seems to be right in the middle of the lane through the sequence, except at the very end.

 

It makes me wonder if they were watching the photographer, too.

[Dick_at_Lake_Tahoe_NV]

OK,Jan, here's the sequence. Most corners don't have a vehicle coming toward you, but this one does. So you start into the right-hand corner next to the center line, just as you should, ready to "dive toward the apex." You see a vehicle coming toward you and say, "Oh siht", maybe you even get on your brakes as a survival reaction (even if you aren't going too fast). You brake straight ahead and stare at the vehicle instead of staring at the apex. Crash!

[Dave_zoom_zoom]

OK,Jan, here's the sequence. Most corners don't have a vehicle coming toward you, but this one does. So you start into the right-hand corner next to the center line, just as you should, ready to "dive toward the apex." You see a vehicle coming toward you and say, "Oh siht", maybe you even get on your brakes as a survival reaction (even if you aren't going too fast). You brake straight ahead and stare at the vehicle instead of staring at the apex. Crash!

 

Yep!!

 

That's the way I'd see it. (most likely anyway)

 

Dave

[Twisties]

Dick,

 

It's certainly possible that it went as you say, I just don't see any evidence to support the assumption. The first shot of the sequence shows them already in contact. I hadn't realized there were more shots until David just pointed them out, but the other shots are all after contact as well, and suggest a pretty hard blow, not just a graze. What in the shots makes you think this?

 

To help out, let me offer some alternative theories. Mind you, I think the evidence at hand supports these equally as "target fixation" which is to say not at all. But I challenge you to rule any of these out. If you can't rule these out, then you really don't have the evidence to support your theory.

 

1. The rider was out of position after evading another leading vehicle which did cross into his lane.

 

2. The rider was out of position due to to high an entry speed.

 

3. The rider was out of position due avoiding a deer.

 

4. The rider was out of position due to poor line choice.

 

5. The rider was out of position due to avoiding rocks or sand in the road.

 

6. The rider was out of position because he lost concentration altogether, and was not looking at anything in particular.

 

7. The rider had a sudden health issue.

 

8. The rider had a tire blow out.

 

9. Other mechanical failure.

 

Even if it happened just as you say, I'd call it more of a panic reaction than a target fixation problem. But my point is not that you are wrong, I don't know that. My point is there doesn't seem to much evidence at all to support a conclusion of cause, and none that particularly strikes me as supporting any particular scenario.

 

Jan

[motorman587]

Does the photographer sit there and take those photos or is there an automated camera setup?

I'll bet the photographer sets up in a turn notorious for crashes..he sits there and waits for the noobie with a new bike, blue jeans and street shoes to biff it.

Don't know anything about the Dragon but don't complain when LEO's set up "speed traps". I am sure they are tired of taking crash reports.

 

A lot of LEO in the area due to complains from folks living there and this site complains about the LEOs, claim taking away from business.........

 

http://www.tailofthedragon.com/

[motorman587]

It's hard to tell from the sequence of stills, but it looks like the SUV did nothing to evade, either. The vehicle seems to be right in the middle of the lane through the sequence, except at the very end.

 

It makes me wonder if they were watching the photographer, too.

 

Not against the law to not evade. Against the law to cross the double yellow line.

 

Did you guys/gals see him missing his shoe..........?

[swilson]

Oooof... that'll leave a mark. Great photos.

[David]

Not against the law to not evade. Against the law to cross the double yellow line.

 

I am aware of that.

 

The subject wasn't legality--it was attention.

[motorman587]

Not against the law to not evade. Against the law to cross the double yellow line.

 

I am aware of that.

 

The subject wasn't legality--it was attention.

 

With the statement that the vehicle was in the middle of the road and the driver did not attempt to evade, it appears that some of the blame is being push on the car driver for not paying attention. We do not see what the driver sees or can react to. What we do see is a motorcycle, who clearly crossed the double yellow line. Yes at the end of pictues the driver of the vehicle reacts, however you must take in perception and reaction time, depending what the driver sees. We all have differnt rates that we precieve danger. So I beleive, from just the pictures, the driver of the SUV could do nothing.

[David]

John, I wasn't blaming him at all. That's something you're reading into my statement.

 

I was merely making an observation that he appeared to be looking elsewhere. I just found it interesting.

 

The fault is clearly all on the rider.

[CoarsegoldKid]

I would guess the photographer distracted the rider and the driver. But so would a bear or a bare naked woman. Once the rider's attention was off the road, even if he were at the speed limit and perhaps close to the double yellow, he lost the turn-in point, fixated on the truck, and hit it. Were he not to give up on the turn he may have been able to avoid the truck. If he were speeding, opps.

Learning to turn the head in the direction of the turn will not come easy to the newbee, even long time riders miss the importance of such a simple task. The truck is not at fault but he too being distracted may not have seen the rider until it was too late to avoid the collision. Common sense tells me we are supposed to avoid collisions if we can although there is no vehicle code that states it. I think the driver would have moved over to the right.

Sage Rider is right more money spend on quality instruction might be the best money spent. Sending someone out into the world with just a few hours of classroom and tarmac lessons ain't good enough. I think we all know that. If this fellow was a newbee and received the state's mandated lessons then it is clearly demonstrated in these photos he didn't score very high. On the other hand $H|T happens.

[Firefight911]

If this fellow was a newbee and received the state's mandated lessons then it is clearly demonstrated in these photos he didn't score very high. On the other hand $H|T happens.

 

Yes, but in the modern society where everyone gets a ribbon, no one is responsible, and everyone makes the team what do we expect?

 

Tiered licensing with black and white, pass or fail criteria that is very objective with mandatory skills testing anyone?

 

Darn it! There I went opening another

 

[Deadboy]

From what I can see it seems like he overcooked the corner but as to why who knows....I do think the photographers set up in the corners that are the most likely to yield something interesting. When I was there Killboy was right at a sharp, decreasing radius corner and I found it very distracting the first time by....but that isn't in any way meant to excuse the rider...look where you want to go....

[yabadabapal]

I cant see taking on a road like that without some really good training and some miles behind that training.

This is not a hijack

I just want to say that I was really excited about getting my bike until I joined BMWST and realized how even after MSF and some years, I am not an educated and experienced rider. Im going to do some more training and education. The art of riding unlike other arts has potentially major consequences.

[Bud]

I thought there was some irony in that the picture had "PROOF" stamped all over it.

 

(I know why it does, it just struck my funny bone.)

[tallman]

The rider F'd up.

 

Not the SUV's fault, not the photographer's fault, not the bare

bear's fault.

Almost every time we go through there, someone is rounding a corner over the double yellow line on their fancy schmancy motorcycle.

Sometimes multiple offenders in the same group.

Of course I'm in the wrong here, because I don't race through there and don't pay the dues for the privilege of ignoring the traffic controls, and blatantly ignore the posted signs saying,

 

"Caution, motorcycles have the right of way in all situations on this road

because we are cooler than you,

and,

even if you're on a motorcycle too, get the hell out of my supercool racerwannabe self because I have the right to ride where ever the F I want to on this road. "

 

PS

You'd damn well better be paying attention and capable of bailing my stupid arse out when I'm about to run into you.

 

 

I'm tired of seeing people ride the Gap like they owned the road.

The cops are there because people like me got tired of having to avoid collisions from better riders (obviously) than I am.

When they put me, and my passenger, at risk for serious bodily harm, and possible death, and appear to have the ability and intent to cause such harm, perhaps I should defend myself as I would from any other lawbreaker who chooses, intentionally, to put a law abiding citizen's life at risk by acting in an illegal, criminal manner.

Have a nice day.

 

[Marty Hill]

Well said Tim!

[RichEdwards]

The "Tree of Shame" at Deals Gap (a tree decorated with the plastic and metal remnants of dozens of bikes that have crashed at the Gap) attests to the fact that many one and two vehicle smash-ups happen there weekly. Every time that I have been on that stretch of road I have seen bikes crossing the double-lines. Too many go there and ride way above their ability level--and some have to pay the price for that (and as Tim has said, made others pay for their carelessness as well.)

[RussL]

In defensive of the SUV driver, that's a pretty sharp turn he's entering and I'm sure his eyes (and attention) were on the road trying to keep his vehicle between the lines and not on the motorcyclist. Lets face it, a large part of driving on any road is assuming oncoming traffic is going to stay in its own lane. If you had to drive/ride the Dragon with the fear of taking evasive action from oncoming traffic in every corner, it would be a very slow and painstaking drive.

[lvnvbiker]

OK now I'm sitting here trying how to figure out how the @##@@ the guy in the cage is at fault! In our society there seems to be a huge current of displaced blame, and this is a prime example. Like the guy in the motorhome that set the cruise and left the drivers seat to get coffee, then after the crash sued and won based on the fact that nowhere in the manual did it say that he couldn't. COME ON PEOPLE GET A GRIP! The guy on the bike was a squid, it is his fault period! If you trip over your own feet and fall off the curb is it your citys fault when you hit the ground? If you put the car in drive instead of reverse and run over your washer and dryer is it the car makers fault? Who's fault is it when you get a drunk driving, the liquor makers or the bartenders? It's not possible in any of those situations that it may be the fault of the one walking driving or drinking now is it...

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Jeebus!!!

 

A whole bunch of after the fact judgments made here and condemning the poor guy who crashed. Where is the evidence that he didn't wind up across the yellow because of debris in the road, quite common there. He may have been new to the road as well and got surprised by the second half of one of those nasty double apex turns. What we see in the first picture gives no indication of what happened just prior to the crash.

 

I do agree with too fast for conditions but, who among us hasn't been guilty of that before? This guy just didn't get away with it.

[upflying]

Jeebus!!!

 

A whole bunch of after the fact judgments made here and condemning the poor guy who crashed. Where is the evidence that he didn't wind up across the yellow because of debris in the road, quite common there. He may have been new to the road as well and got surprised by the second half of one of those nasty double apex turns. What we see in the first picture gives no indication of what happened just prior to the crash.

 

I do agree with too fast for conditions but, who among us hasn't been guilty of that before? This guy just didn't get away with it.

Even if there was debris on the road, the biker is still at fault. If you go down because of road snot it is YOUR fault, it is not the fault of the road. Part of riding is the responsibility of surface appraisal. Unfamiliar with the road? Ride slower. Sorry, this is a slam dunk against the biker.

[waylap]

You can tell by the post impact disctance traveled by both vehicles that the motorcycle was HEAVY on the brakes and had slowed rapidly to a very low speed. After the glancing impact, the bike doesn't continue on it's original path (maybe a few feet) Conservation of linear momentum. By this you can determine that the rider came into the turn too hot, realized it, came upright and on the brakes hard and went over the center line at the second before impact....giving the suv driver nothing to evade in one second.

[Quinn]

What I really need to see is the minus one or minus two pictures. I assume that the plus one that we start the series with shows the bike stood up against the SUV after it's made contact. Does that seem reasonable?

 

 

[Deadboy]

You can tell by the post impact disctance traveled by both vehicles that the motorcycle was HEAVY on the brakes and had slowed rapidly to a very low speed. After the glancing impact, the bike doesn't continue on it's original path (maybe a few feet) Conservation of linear momentum. By this you can determine that the rider came into the turn too hot, realized it, came upright and on the brakes hard and went over the center line at the second before impact....giving the suv driver nothing to evade in one second.

 

That is what I saw also....but you said it better!!

[russell_bynum]

OK now I'm sitting here trying how to figure out how the @##@@ the guy in the cage is at fault! In our society there seems to be a huge current of displaced blame, and this is a prime example. Like the guy in the motorhome that set the cruise and left the drivers seat to get coffee, then after the crash sued and won based on the fact that nowhere in the manual did it say that he couldn't. COME ON PEOPLE GET A GRIP! The guy on the bike was a squid, it is his fault period! If you trip over your own feet and fall off the curb is it your citys fault when you hit the ground? If you put the car in drive instead of reverse and run over your washer and dryer is it the car makers fault? Who's fault is it when you get a drunk driving, the liquor makers or the bartenders? It's not possible in any of those situations that it may be the fault of the one walking driving or drinking now is it...

 

Did anyone say the SUV was at fault?

[MAT2CHI]

What I really need to see is the minus one or minus two pictures.

 

Sometimes they pose for the camera.

 

 

[motorman587]

OK now I'm sitting here trying how to figure out how the @##@@ the guy in the cage is at fault! In our society there seems to be a huge current of displaced blame, and this is a prime example. Like the guy in the motorhome that set the cruise and left the drivers seat to get coffee, then after the crash sued and won based on the fact that nowhere in the manual did it say that he couldn't. COME ON PEOPLE GET A GRIP! The guy on the bike was a squid, it is his fault period! If you trip over your own feet and fall off the curb is it your citys fault when you hit the ground? If you put the car in drive instead of reverse and run over your washer and dryer is it the car makers fault? Who's fault is it when you get a drunk driving, the liquor makers or the bartenders? It's not possible in any of those situations that it may be the fault of the one walking driving or drinking now is it...

 

Did anyone say the SUV was at fault?

 

I think some people are believing that the SUV did not move over at all, thinking that as blame.

[steve.foote]

Nope, no matter how you slice it, that has "dumbass" written all over it. From the brake light in the first frame to the flying shoe, dumbass is the only thing which comes to mind.

[smiller]

I think some people are believing that the SUV did not move over at all, thinking that as blame.

From what I read I don't think that anyone is either saying or believing that. The questions about the SUV's actions had to do only with possible sources of distraction and no one has said that the SUV did anything wrong at all. Personally I think that from the SUV driver's perspective everything was over in an instant and there was virtually zero time available for them to to anything even if they wanted to.

[David]

I think some people are believing that the SUV did not move over at all, thinking that as blame.

From what I read I don't think that anyone is either saying or believing that. The questions about the SUV's actions had to do only with possible sources of distraction and no one has said that the SUV did anything wrong at all. Personally I think that from the SUV driver's perspective everything was over in an instant and there was virtually zero time available for them to to anything even if they wanted to.

 

Exactly. John saw something that wasn't there, and then everyone piled on like lemmings. I pictured a loose football in an NFL game, with all the linemen diving into a big pile while the ball boy holds the ball up in his hand wondering what they're all doing.

[Dick_at_Lake_Tahoe_NV]

Great pictures of the Harley, what with sparks and all.

 

Now that's the way you corner, by leaning over, not straight up like the "Dumbass" who is still braking in the corner. What ever happened to "Slow-in, fast-out" and "Brake before you lean?

[T__]

What isn't shown is the next image.. Not nearly as graceful as it looked a frame or two earlier.. So much for doing it right eh!

 

 

 

Twisty

[waylap]

Great pictures of the Harley, what with sparks and all.

 

Now that's the way you corner, by leaning over, not straight up like the "Dumbass" who is still braking in the corner. What ever happened to "Slow-in, fast-out" and "Brake before you lean?

 

Yup, that's the way I like to take 'em....all lean baby. I think he's just checking the oil on the right side of the bike.

[russell_bynum]

Great pictures of the Harley, what with sparks and all.

 

Now that's the way you corner, by leaning over, not straight up like the "Dumbass" who is still braking in the corner. What ever happened to "Slow-in, fast-out" and "Brake before you lean?

 

There's nothing at all wrong with braking while in a corner.