throttle synch

[bobbobtar]

I have a newer R1200RT( with 3300 miles) and it seems to run a little rough,can I do a throttle synch at any mileage or does it have to be done in conjunction with a vale adjustment.

Thanks.

[T__]

I have a newer R1200RT( with 3300 miles) and it seems to run a little rough,can I do a throttle synch at any mileage or does it have to be done in conjunction with a vale adjustment.

Thanks.

 

 

Bob, you can do it any time.. If you are going to do a valve adjustment that should be done first as that can (not will but can) effect the balance..

 

You can’t do the base idle as that is electronically controlled but can do the off idle & higher..

 

Be sure to pull the Motronic fuse for a few minutes first,, then do a TPS learn (key on then open & close the throttle twice).. That will delete the fueling computer’s memory & remove any idle air control offset or skewing.. Some disconnect the idle air control wires first but will only retain the offset not zero the offset..

 

Have you looked at your secondary spark plugs? If not do that first as a fouled secondary plug can really mess up the idle & low speed quality (they foul fairly easily on a new engine until fully broken in)

 

Twisty

 

[10ovr]

I have a newer R1200RT( with 3300 miles) and it seems to run a little rough,can I do a throttle synch at any mileage or does it have to be done in conjunction with a vale adjustment.

Thanks.

 

 

Bob, you can do it any time.. If you are going to do a valve adjustment that should be done first as that can (not will but can) effect the balance..

 

You can’t do the base idle as that is electronically controlled but can do the off idle & higher..

 

Be sure to pull the Motronic fuse for a few minutes first,, then do a TPS learn (key on then open & close the throttle twice).. That will delete the fueling computer’s memory & remove any idle air control offset or skewing.. Some disconnect the idle air control wires first but will only retain the offset not zero the offset..

 

Have you looked at your secondary spark plugs? If not do that first as a fouled secondary plug can really mess up the idle & low speed quality (they foul fairly easily on a new engine until fully broken in)

 

Twisty

Motronic fuse on a R1200RT ???

[MikeB60]

 

 

Be sure to pull the Motronic fuse for a few minutes first,,

 

Twisty

 

Dont think there are any fuses on the R1200RT??

[T__]

I have a newer R1200RT( with 3300 miles) and it seems to run a little rough,can I do a throttle synch at any mileage or does it have to be done in conjunction with a vale adjustment.

Thanks.

 

 

Bob, you can do it any time.. If you are going to do a valve adjustment that should be done first as that can (not will but can) effect the balance..

 

You can’t do the base idle as that is electronically controlled but can do the off idle & higher..

 

Be sure to pull the Motronic fuse for a few minutes first,, then do a TPS learn (key on then open & close the throttle twice).. That will delete the fueling computer’s memory & remove any idle air control offset or skewing.. Some disconnect the idle air control wires first but will only retain the offset not zero the offset..

 

Have you looked at your secondary spark plugs? If not do that first as a fouled secondary plug can really mess up the idle & low speed quality (they foul fairly easily on a new engine until fully broken in)

 

Twisty

Motronic fuse on a R1200RT ???

 

 

Good point, misspoken on my part.. I should have said just disconnect the battery as (that) will kill the power to the Motronic..

 

Twisty

 

[10ovr]

 

 

Be sure to pull the Motronic fuse for a few minutes first,,

 

Twisty

 

Dont think there are any fuses on the R1200RT??

There is 1 fuse on a 1200 model,,R1200GSA fog light relay fuse,,,Its on top of the relay,,,We still love ya Twisty,,

[Marty Hill]

 

 

just disconnect the battery as (that) will kill the power to the Motronic..

 

Twisty

 

Curious, since I've not done that nor have I ever seen anyone else do it on 1200's.

 

 

[10ovr]

 

 

just disconnect the battery as (that) will kill the power to the Motronic..

 

Twisty

 

Curious, since I've not done that nor have I ever seen anyone else do it on 1200's.

 

Any time the batt is disconnected, you should reset the TPS,,I my self just adjust the valves and do a TBS,,Have never done the TPS at the same time,,,

[T__]

 

 

just disconnect the battery as (that) will kill the power to the Motronic..

 

Twisty

 

Curious, since I've not done that nor have I ever seen anyone else do it on 1200's.

 

 

 

 

Marty, what are you curious about? The idle air control reset? If so the dealer does that at sync time..

 

If your cylinders are firing fairly even at idle the idle air controls are probably pretty close side to side so probably no need to re-set the fueling computer’s learn.. If by chance they are not tracking even due to whatever reason probably a good idea to re-set the fueling computer so you are not syncing off idle to a skewed IAC air flow..

 

Twisty

 

[T__]

 

Any time the batt is disconnected, you should reset the TPS,,I my self just adjust the valves and do a TBS,,Have never done the TPS at the same time,,,

 

 

10ovr, re-setting the TPS really has nothing to do with the TBI balance it is just required because the power to the Motronic was disconnected.. The power interruption is to remove adaptation values from the fueling controllers memory.. The TPS re-learn is only needed because of the battery disconnect..

 

Twisty

 

[Redbrick]

"I'm so confused" I'm getting ready to do a 6M on my RT too and............"I'm confused" ..........

Previous posted instructions here talked about unplugging the stepper motors for the throttle sync above idle.......Would appreciate any specific instructions or leads to previous posts with pics showing just what to unplug....

 

 

 

 

 

[10ovr]

 

Any time the batt is disconnected, you should reset the TPS,,I my self just adjust the valves and do a TBS,,Have never done the TPS at the same time,,,

 

 

10ovr, re-setting the TPS really has nothing to do with the TBI balance it is just required because the power to the Motronic was disconnected.. The power interruption is to remove adaptation values from the fueling controllers memory.. The TPS re-learn is only needed because of the battery disconnect..

 

Twisty

[T__]

"I'm so confused" I'm getting ready to do a 6M on my RT too and............"I'm confused" ..........

Previous posted instructions here talked about unplugging the stepper motors for the throttle sync above idle.......Would appreciate any specific instructions or leads to previous posts with pics showing just what to unplug....

 

 

Phil, some people disconnect the idle air controls (stepper motors) for the TBI sync & others don’t.. I don’t disconnect but do re-set the Motronic’s adaptive memory to make sure they (stepper motors) are even to start with.. The dealer does do both, by both clearing the Motronic’s adaptive memory & holding the stepper motors at a fixed count value..

 

If they (the stepper motors) are out of sync side to side disconnecting them just holds them in place.. There is still no guarantee they are the same number of counts out from seated on each side.. Re-setting the Motronic’s adaptive memory re-sets the stepper motors to even counts out on each side so at least you are starting with even air flow through the idle air control system..

 

As I mentioned above if the motor is pulling pretty even at idle cylinder power wise then it probably doesn’t make much difference as the stepper motors are probably close side to side.. But there is always the chance the steppers are not balanced side to side so in that case it would be a good idea to even them up before the TBI balance.. As the throttle is opened farther the stepper motor balance has less & less effect on side to side balance as their air flow is limited to passage hole size..

 

Twisty

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Marty Hill]

Wow! This sure sounds difficult. First, no bike of mine has ever been to a dealer after the 600 mile service. I have only disconnected the battery when I attached my gps/a direct socket for my gerbings and my aux lights. I have never screwed with the stepper motors/I sync at 4k which is where I spend most of my time.

 

My bikes run very smoothly as do the other bikes I have helped people with. Perhaps I'm wrong but I think some of you are into serious overkill.

[T__]

Wow! This sure sounds difficult. First, no bike of mine has ever been to a dealer after the 600 mile service. I have only disconnected the battery when I attached my gps/a direct socket for my gerbings and my aux lights. I have never screwed with the stepper motors/I sync at 4k which is where I spend most of my time.

 

My bikes run very smoothly as do the other bikes I have helped people with. Perhaps I'm wrong but I think some of you are into serious overkill.

 

 

Marty, I guess for some people disconnecting the battery & opening & closing the throttle twice can be difficult but for others that want to do it the correct way it isn’t that difficult to do..

 

I guess it is up to the person doing the job if they want to take the extra steps necessary to do it as close to the BMW specified way as possible..

 

Twisty

 

[Redbrick]

Thank you guys for the info ...Pretty straight forward operation....I got it...Bike pulls well now but I will reset anyway....

[hopz]

Funny that Von Baden does not show this Motronic dance on his DVD...

 

For what its worth- for the original poster... I did a TBS on my R12 separate from the valve adjustment (at a fairly low mileage) and had a very positive improvement, but having said that... more miles toward a break-in will help too. But... if you have the tool and the time, I say do it...

 

another Bob...

[T__]

Funny that Von Baden does not show this Motronic dance on his DVD...

Clip~

 

 

Hopz, I doubt he knew about it.. I work with similar computerized fueling systems on a daily basis & they are all pretty well the same as far as operating,, learning,, & adaptive function goes.. They might do it a little differently between different vehicle lines but all work about the same..

 

With the above in mind I did some research on the current BMW1200 system & lo & behold it is right there in the BMW manual (not easy to find but there none the less) as far as what the Motorrad diagnostic system does at & prior to throttle sync..

 

Quote- “In order to ensure that the engine operates as smoothly as possible after synchronization, the BMW Motorrad diagnostic system deletes the adaptation values from the control unit's memory before the throttle valves are synchronized.

In order to ensure that they do not affect synchronization with the throttle valves slightly open, the idle actuators are held in position by the BMW Motorrad diagnostic system”

 

My feeling is: If BMW service does it that way so should I..

 

Twisty

 

 

[bobbobtar]

Twisty,

Let me get this right, after the TBS, disconnect the battery and then reconnect the battery,twist throttle twice, then I'am good to go.

 

Thanks Twisty,

Bob

[Boffin]

Twisty,

Let me get this right, after the TBS, disconnect the battery and then reconnect the battery,twist throttle twice, then I'am good to go.

 

Thanks Twisty,

Bob

 

Almost....

 

Before the TBS, disconnect the battery etc.

 

Andy

[ESokoloff]

Twisty,

Let me get this right, after the TBS, disconnect the battery and then reconnect the battery,twist throttle twice, then I'am good to go.

 

Thanks Twisty,

Bob

 

Almost....

 

Before the TBS, disconnect the battery etc.

 

Andy

 

Slight hijack...

 

I assume this same procedure is to be performed on a 1150 via the # 5 fuse?

[T__]

Twisty,

Let me get this right, after the TBS, disconnect the battery and then reconnect the battery,twist throttle twice, then I'am good to go.

 

Thanks Twisty,

Bob

 

Almost....

 

Before the TBS, disconnect the battery etc.

 

Andy

 

Slight hijack...

 

I assume this same procedure is to be performed on a 1150 via the # 5 fuse?

 

 

Eric, on the 1150 the Motronic is cleared by pulling the #5 fuse.. BUT, on the 1150 you gain nothing by clearing the Motronic’s learned adaptation values for the idle air control as it has no computer controlled idle air control (no stepper motor(s)).. The Idle air is controlled by the manually adjusted BBS..

 

Twisty

 

 

 

 

[ESokoloff]

Thanks Bill.

 

I'll step out of the Hex section now & go back to Oil-heads where I belong

[hopz]

Twisties... I like the sound of what you are saying. It makes sense to me.

 

Is the ignition ON and engine not running when you twist two times, or is it OFF, or is the motor running?

[T__]

Twisties... I like the sound of what you are saying. It makes sense to me.

 

Is the ignition ON and engine not running when you twist two times, or is it OFF, or is the motor running?

 

Hopz, directly from the BMW service manual..

 

Quote- “Switch on the ignition.

Without starting the engine, fully open the throttle once or twice so that the control unit of the BMW engine management system can register the throttle-valve positions.

Switch off the ignition."

 

BTW I am Twisty (twisty1) not Twisties (different posters)

 

Twisty

 

 

 

[Marty Hill]

I bow before your superior knowledge. And yes, I'm lazy.

[Dave_zoom_zoom]

Wow!

 

Another tuning revelation (for me)

 

Thanks Twisty 1 !!!

 

I'll buy the next round! (oops, forgot where I was)

 

Dave

[BanjoBoy]

WOW! This is great stuff!

 

So tell me Mr. Twisty1, all I have to do is disconnect the battery?

In other posts on this fine forum, people are talking about leaving the battery disconnected over night, touching the + and - cables together, doing a Voodoo dance and splashing chicken blood on the thing...

But all I have to do is disconnect the battery for a minute, reconnect, and open the Throttle fully? (twice for good measures:)

I synced my TBI's last weekend,would you still recommend I reset the computer now? I guess if things get weird I'll have to re-sync the TBIs?

 

Thanks for all the great info,

 

Andy Norris

[Marty Hill]

Don't forget to light a fire and dance twice around it in a clockwise direction.

[Ken H.]

"I'm so confused" I'm getting ready to do a 6M on my RT too and............"I'm confused" ..........

Previous posted instructions here talked about unplugging the stepper motors for the throttle sync above idle.......Would appreciate any specific instructions or leads to previous posts with pics showing just what to unplug....

I was one of the ones who early on (when the ’05 & ‘06s came out) advocated disconnecting the stepper motors as a way to simulate the dealer’s procedure of parking them in a same fixed position prior to doing an off idle sync.

 

But later research this past year with the newer GS-911 software shows that as soon as the throttle is raised off idle; both steppers immediately go to the same count position. They do vary above idle but always in step (no pun intended) with each other.

 

So I now say – leave ’m connected. Adjust for in-sync with the right cable, and you’re good to go!

 

[T__]

"I'm so confused" I'm getting ready to do a 6M on my RT too and............"I'm confused" ..........

Previous posted instructions here talked about unplugging the stepper motors for the throttle sync above idle.......Would appreciate any specific instructions or leads to previous posts with pics showing just what to unplug....

I was one of the ones who early on (when the ’05 & ‘06s came out) advocated disconnecting the stepper motors as a way to simulate the dealer’s procedure of parking them in a same fixed position prior to doing an off idle sync.

 

But later research this past year with the newer GS-911 software shows that as soon as the throttle is raised off idle; both steppers immediately go to the same count position. They do vary above idle but always in step (no pun intended) with each other.

 

So I now say – leave ’m connected. Adjust for in-sync with the right cable, and you’re good to go!

 

 

Ken, that is pretty typical of the newer electronic stepper motor systems.. It is a type of idle air control throttle follower that prevents dropped throttle stalling (like a dash pot on the older systems) .. So the steppers following the throttle opening for some amount of counts is pretty typical of all newer systems..

 

 

On the steppers going to the same count as your throttle up__ Are you saying the stepper motors are at different counts at base idle then go to the same counts (steps from seated) as you open the throttle then return to different counts at base idle return? If so that is something different..

 

Do the steps remain the same count side to side as the throttle is opened if the off idle sync (cable adjustment) is not symmetrical? I can see the stepper motors going to the same counts if the off idle cable adjustment is spot on but not if the off idle air flow is different side to side..

 

 

I guess as long as you know for certain the stepper counts are even side to side at off-idle cable adjustment then no reason to disconnect them.. On the other hand if there is a possibility that the steppers counts are skewed from tracking a misadjusted off idle cable setting & that is a learned event then the possibility exists that you could re-set the off idle cable setting to a skewed base air flow.. Would be nice to know for certain that the stepper counts stay even at off idle even if the cable adjustment is not exact side to side?

 

I guess I will have to get a GS 911 if I want to play with the system..

 

 

Twisty

 

 

[Marty Hill]

Score one for the lazy guy.

 

 

[Ken H.]

On the steppers going to the same count as your throttle up__ Are you saying the stepper motors are at different counts at base idle then go to the same counts (steps from seated) as you open the throttle then return to different counts at base idle return? If so that is something different..

Yes, that's what they do. For example: At idle 181 and 184. At 1500 RPM 150 and 150. At 3000 RPM 141 & 141.

 

Do the steps remain the same count side to side as the throttle is opened if the off idle sync (cable adjustment) is not symmetrical? I can see the stepper motors going to the same counts if the off idle cable adjustment is spot on but not if the off idle air flow is different side to side..

Yes, that's exactly what they do. Even if the cable is out of sync, as soon as you go off idle they match and track together.

 

PM me you email address and I'll send you a spreadsheet with some captured data. It's pretty interesting reading all the things at are captured.

[SageRider]

On the steppers going to the same count as your throttle up__ Are you saying the stepper motors are at different counts at base idle then go to the same counts (steps from seated) as you open the throttle then return to different counts at base idle return? If so that is something different..

Yes, that's what they do. For example: At idle 181 and 184. At 1500 RPM 150 and 150. At 3000 RPM 141 & 141.

 

Do the steps remain the same count side to side as the throttle is opened if the off idle sync (cable adjustment) is not symmetrical? I can see the stepper motors going to the same counts if the off idle cable adjustment is spot on but not if the off idle air flow is different side to side..

Yes, that's exactly what they do. Even if the cable is out of sync, as soon as you go off idle they match and track together.

 

PM me you email address and I'll send you a spreadsheet with some captured data. It's pretty interesting reading all the things at are captured.

Confirmed stepper moter function as described by Ken via my GS-911 at the Benicia Tech Daze earlier this year, but have no spreadsheet....

[hopz]

I would like to ask the Professor(s) for a review for the class.

 

In really simple terms... When you do a TBS the first thing you do is disconnect the battery.

Reconnect the battery.

Open the throttle close the throttle... repeat.

Attach the Twinmax or equivalent...

Start the motor...

Rev it to 3500 or so...

Adjust right throttle stop to achieve balance.

 

Thereafter the steppers when off idle will open the left and the right TBs the same number of clicks (while the cable itself is taking care of inherent differences between the cylinders).

 

Have I got it now teacher?

[Marty Hill]

Just remembered why I don't do the battery dance. I hate to reset the clock. I'd rather have the bike run out of sync. But of course it doesn't. Guess I'm just lucky. As to the throttle twist, I'm afraid of carple tunnel whatever.

[Ken H.]

I would like to ask the Professor(s) for a review for the class.

 

In really simple terms... When you do a TBS the first thing you do is disconnect the battery.

Reconnect the battery.

Open the throttle close the throttle... repeat.

Attach the Twinmax or equivalent...

Start the motor...

Rev it to 3500 or so...

Adjust right throttle stop to achieve balance.

 

Thereafter the steppers when off idle will open the left and the right TBs the same number of clicks (while the cable itself is taking care of inherent differences between the cylinders).

 

Have I got it now teacher?

Well close.

 

I never do the disconnect the battery, or throttle range retrain dance, but certainly doing so won’t hurt anything.

 

And also, one BIG correction (recognizing you may have just miss-spoke):

 

Adjust right throttle stop cable barrel adjuster to achieve balance.

 

Personal opinion 3500 is rather high to be doing a sync adjustment, just a bit off idle is all that’s really necessary, but that’s more of a personal opinion than anything.

 

The steppers don’t really open the TBs, they open air bypass ports in them. But that’s largely a matter of semantics.

 

I don't know any of them there Professor peoples around here though!

 

 

[Bruce H]

OK, I think I understand most of what I am reading. My 07 1200 GSA does not idle correctly and is out of sync at idle. At 2000 RPM it is good using a Twinmax.

 

If I disconnct the battery then re-set the TPS by turning on the key and twisting the throttle twice then turning off the key. This will erase the memory in the stepper motors and might make the idle correct. I do understand how to do a TBS after that point.

 

Am I in the right direction? At idle is my problem, runs rough and sounds like a diesel enging then smooths out for a bit then runs rough. If I disconect the stepper motors it smooths out.

[T__]

OK, I think I understand most of what I am reading. My 07 1200 GSA does not idle correctly and is out of sync at idle. At 2000 RPM it is good using a Twinmax.

 

If I disconnct the battery then re-set the TPS by turning on the key and twisting the throttle twice then turning off the key. This will erase the memory in the stepper motors and might make the idle correct. I do understand how to do a TBS after that point.

 

Am I in the right direction? At idle is my problem, runs rough and sounds like a diesel enging then smooths out for a bit then runs rough. If I disconect the stepper motors it smooths out.

 

 

 

Bruce, yes, to the best of my knowledge that should re-set the fueling computers stepper motor learned offset.. The question here is why are they skewed to begin with? Make sure you leave the power disconnected for a while to allow capacitor bleed off (how long I can’t say)..

 

If all is good with your idle quality the steppers should even themselves out eventually so why are they off to begin with?

 

 

Have you looked at your secondary spark plugs? If one or both are fouled that will really roughen up the idle quality.. Are both TBI units fully hitting the idle stops at street idle?

No vacuum leaks in the TBI area? Valve settings decent?

 

I guess the question is: if the stepper motors are skewed more than a few counts at idle what are they compensating for?

 

Twisty

 

[Marty Hill]

Bruce,

 

Ken, in the post right above yours states that he never does either of those two dances. I haven't done them either. Both of us have done an idle sync many/many times. If your idle is not correct, why not visit your dealer/it should be a wty issue.

[Bruce H]

Marty,

 

I did visit the dealer, they re syncehd the TB, charged me $90.00 and said the bike runs perfect, it does not. I called back yesterday and can take it back in althought they are not sure anything can be done?... It is 100 miles one way to the dealer. If I can learn to fix it myself I will. I don't know why it is off at idle however if disconnectng the battery and re set the TPI and re sync the TB and that will fix it I'll give it a try. You know the old 1100 was easier...

[Bruce H]

I should mention this was a used bike with 934 mikes. The owner just had the dealer do the 600 mile service and they sent it back not running correctly althought he didn't know that. It was his first and only bmw. I can do everything on my older 1100's but this is my first 1200.

 

Taking it back to the dealer means leaving it on Tuesday and picking it up on Saturday. I ride it, my wife follows and then we go back. That is 600 miles driving for service not done correctly in the first place. I mentioned what I thought was wrong and their reply was "We don't take advice from the internet, we only do what BMW says"

 

I did un plug the steppers and everything smoothed out.

 

Where do I buy a service manual and who's?

 

[Marty Hill]

Bruce, the bike is 99% the same as the 11 and 1150. Ignore the stepper and the battery and dive in. If you did your 11, you can do the 12.

[Bruce H]

Took out the plugs, the bottom ones were black the side ones normal. The bottom pluge were barley more than finger tight, we re-torqued to BMW specs. Disconnected the battery while we worked on the plugs then did the TPS and hooked up a twinmax. The idle isn't totally smooth and 2K is only off very small amount. Still has some of the clackety sound at idle sometimes, comes and goes. At this point I don't know what to do. I don't think the dealer has the ability to fix the problem. I never get to talk to the tech, only the service writer and he doesn't know if he was punched or bored. I'll ride it for a few hours and see.

 

What do the stepper motors re-learn and from where do they get their information?

[Ken H.]

First off, when looking at idle sync with a TwinMax, manometer or whatever, the hexheads don’t always show in prefect sync at idle.

 

What the BMS-K module is using to determine stepper positions at idle we don’t know, and BMW isn't telling, but we can speculate – O2 sensors’ feedback, the knock sensors, the head temp sensors and ambient air temp sensor being high on the list. We can also suspect that in-sync isn’t the only thing they are trying to achieve; low emissions is in the priorities somewhere too. If the bike is in-sync above idle (where we ride them after all) the dealer may very well be right – NPF.

 

 

[Redbrick]

Bruce, the bike is 99% the same as the 11 and 1150. Ignore the stepper and the battery and dive in. If you did your 11, you can do the 12.

 

Marty......That's what I did yesterday..Did my 1200 just like we do Kathy's 1150 except no BBS of course.....Twin Max read balanced at idle, off to one side about to the "2" at 4,000...Adjusted right cable 'til balanced at "0"....Changed plugs and checked valves before sync....Seems to be fine but haven't ridden it yet...A note: Found that I need a thin bladed 10mm open end to tighten the lock nut on the cable easily..Regular Craftsman too thick.....Harbor Freight again...

One more point...Friend noticed that the hose to the throttle body was a very loose fit ....Might even be able to suck some air....I put a tight tie wrap around it tightly....

 

[Ken H.]

A note: Found that I need a thin bladed 10mm open end to tighten the lock nut on the cable easily..Regular Craftsman too thick...

I took a cheapy, heated it and bent it to a better angle, then ground it thinner. Now resides in my "Special BMW Tools" drawer!

[Redbrick]

A note: Found that I need a thin bladed 10mm open end to tighten the lock nut on the cable easily..Regular Craftsman too thick...

I took a cheapy, heated it and bent it to a better angle, then ground it thinner. Now resides in my "Special BMW Tools" drawer!

 

We have a "BMW tool drawer too" but no grinder....Probably buy a 10mm and borrow friends grinder....Had to use needle nose to tighten this time....

[Semper_Fi]

.....Now resides in my "Special BMW Tools" drawer!

 

I wonder how many of the readership has a BMW Tool Drawer???

 

I have and i have a BMW sticker on it - too funny

[FLTRI]

Mine is small for now, but growing. It's right next to my Harley drawer, which is below the Corvette drawer.

 

It's a sickness, I tell ya...