Collective clutch replacement advise needed....

[OoPEZoO]

Bike is over 100k miles and still on the original clutch. It started slipping on me twice yesterday. Both times it was on the highway and right after I downshifted and got on it hard to pass traffic. Then later I attempted to intentionaly make it slip and couldn't do it (uphill in high gear and goosed it). Could be out of adjustment, could be light contamination, could be a shot clutch.

 

I readjusted the cable last night (at the lever and behind the tranny) and it was definitely out of adjustment. I didn't mess around with trying to get it to slip this morning, but I will this afternoon just to see if the adjustment helped.

 

Either way, its the original clutch......the splines haven't been touched since the bike was still under its original warranty, and I'm not planning on getting rid of it anytime soon. SOOOOooo....Labor Day weekend I'm planning on going in to replace the clutch and check out my splines.

 

I know I need to replace the friction plate and clutch bolts, but what about the spring, pressure plate, and housing cover? I could see maybe the pressure plate and spring, but is it worth it to even think about the housing cover? I'm all about preventitive maintenence, but not for stuff that will never wear out.

 

Any thoughts?

[Fugu]

Any thoughts?

 

I'd see if it slips now that you adjusted it.

 

Might be able to put it off until snow flies and not waste a perfectly good holiday weekend wrenching on what I perceive to be a considerably less fun job than doing valves with a feeler gauge in one hand and a brew in the other.

 

My GS slipped 10k miles ago because I was stupid and didn't read the adjust procedure. I was sure I needed a new one. Once adjusted correctly it hasn't slipped since. So while I share your apparent concern over the state of the clutch at 100k miles, I wouldn't do it if it's not slipping or measured to be too thin.

 

Have you ever peeked at it through the starter hole? Takes a little fiddling to get a decent measurement but you can do it. I was shocked how much friction material I had left when I looked at mine.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[philbytx]

As anal as I am , I replace ALL hardware, plate, cover, thrust bearings etc and including bolts/nuts/washers, on a clutch job.

Have done so for every clutch job I've worked on....bike or car. I tend to keep my wheels for quite a while which is why I always utilize all new hardware when into a major job such as a clutch.

 

Oh! And it's not only my anality....I only ever "cheaped" on a clutch job once (and that was over 40 years ago). Had to go back in and do it again a couple of months later. I put in a new clutch disc and refurbed pressure plate BUT I was a little short of cash, so I decided to re-use a clutch thrust bearing. I remember the car well...it was a 1958 MG Magnette.... Arggggh!!!

 

 

[OoPEZoO]

OK.....after a 60 mile commute home.

 

I rode nice and relaxed for the first few miles and everything seemed ok. The traffic thinned out and I started to play a little. I had it in 3rd and let the RPM fall to about 3k. I then rolled on the throttle till about 4200 RPM and then punched it.......the clutch proceeded to slip like crazy until I backed off and let the drive train catch up to the engine. I did this a few times and slipped pretty easy in 3rd, 4th, and 5th. Then I got stuck behind a few cars and went back to riding slow. Once that traffic thinned out, I rode the last ~30 miles like I stole it. Upshifts, downshifts, rolling on and off the throttle like crazy in every gear.......trying like hell to get a feel for what was going on with it. It didn't slip once, and I couldn't get it to slip.

 

So......a guess is either I have slight oil contamination that is burning off with use, or the clutch slips when cold but holds once it gets hot. Either way, it looks like I'm about to break the bike in half.

[Fugu]

Bummer. Keep us posted, I've never done that myself so I always seem to read lots about it hoping I absorb something for the inevitable day...

 

AWagnon has a checklist he has developed for halving and re-assembling the bikes I think, you might drop him a PM asking for a copy.

 

 

[skinny_tom (aka boney)]

Call me a fool, but at 100k, if I had my tranny out for anything, I'd ship it off to be rebuilt before I put it back in. There's no way I'd want to have to take the bike apart twice if I didn't have to. I mean, why not? The engines seem to last forever and you've got a re-done rear end. There's really only one thing left.

[Matts_12GS]

I'd agree with Tom on this one most likely.

Doing a clutch is a day's job if the tranny is in good shape.

 

My splines let go on my 98 at about 66K and ate the input shaft. It's easier to do it while it's all apart, oh, and while you're pulling it apart, ratchet straps will be your best friend!

 

PM or email me if you have any questions.

[smiller]

Call me a fool, but at 100k, if I had my tranny out for anything, I'd ship it off to be rebuilt before I put it back in.

Man, hate to say it but I'd have to agree. Or maybe you might actually have a 100k-mile M97 with a good rear input shaft bearing... do ya feel lucky... punk?

[bmwmick]

Keith,

When I had to replace my clutch in my K1100LT at 125K miles, I replaced the friction disc, throwout bearing and the diaphragm spring. I used a straight-edge to check the pressure plates and they were perfectly flat, no wear at all. I chucked a sanding disc(80 grit)in a drill motor and put a nice circular pattern (like new brake rotors after surfacing) on both plates. Did not have any problems, now at 145K miles.

My problem was engine oil on the friction disc. The $0.69 O-ring that seals the output shaft had hardened and was allowing oil to seep out through the splines. I also replaced the rear main seal and the transmission input shaft seal but didn't need to.

 

Mick

[OoPEZoO]

Believe me guys, that was the plan. Wait till NEXT winter (2009-2010), tear it all down, send out the tranny for a rebuild, and take my time putting it all back together. Now this jumps up and slaps me in the face. I just can't put my bike out of commission for a few months right now for a proper rebuild. It has been my main source of transportation since Danielle has been in school and we are down to one income. I need to have it apart and back together ASAP. Of course that plan could all go to hell if I find trashed splines. If thats what I find then I won't have much of a choice. Actually, if thats what I find......I'll most likely be showing up at the BRR with a borrowed Goldwing and probably won't have money to get the RT back on the road for months.

 

Fingers are crossed, and I just put an order in at Hammersley for a clutch kit.

[Fugu]

Crap, that sucks.

 

Another reason to thank dad for putting that wrench in your hand at a young age, though.

 

 

[OoPEZoO]

Another reason to thank dad for putting that wrench in your hand at a young age, though.

 

Yeah, if it wasn't for that.....I wouldn't be able to afford any of my overpriced European junk

[skinny_tom (aka boney)]

Another reason to thank dad for putting that wrench in your hand at a young age, though.

 

Yeah, if it wasn't for that.....I wouldn't be able to afford any of my overpriced European junk

 

You and me both my man.

[Boffin]

Try and get hold of a copy of "Ted's spline lube DVD". An invaluable resource when doing this job for the first time.

 

The job itself is not too difficult - there's lots of wrenching to do, but all fairly straightforward stuff.

 

I made gearbox alignment studs from a couple of M8x1.25 120mm long bolts with the heads cut off and a slot cut in the end for a screwdriver. I also took the shortcut of leaving the tranny/shaft/FD in one piece. This makes it a little heavier to move around (2 people is best) but saves a lot of time and avoids disturbing the FD swivel bearings. At your mileage, if you split them I would replace them.

 

From memory, it was plastic off, battery out, footplates off, throttles off, rear wheel/brake off, shock off, release frame bolts leaving the top one in but slack, release ABS pump top nuts, start to jack up frame with ratchet strap, airbox out, fuel reg out, EITHER remove FD, remove swingarm and shaft, and remove tranny OR remove tranny/swingarm/FD in a lump, replace clutch, refit in reverse order.

 

I am bound to have forgotten something and the order may be a little cockeyed but that should give you an idea of what is involved.

 

Oh yes, take lots of pictures where looms/pipes etc run before they are disturbed. You cannot have to many pictures of each step on disassembly to aid re-assembly.

 

ANdy

[OoPEZoO]

Thanks Andy. I just had the final drive off for a rebuild last year, and I replace the pivot bearings then. So I plan to pull the whole tranny/final drive off as a unit. I already ordered a set of M8x1.25 110mm bolts from McMastercarr yesterday. I plan to do the same as you (cut and slot them) when they get here tomorrow. I plan to take MANY pictures. I was going to try and hold off till next weekend, but I think I might start tearing into it this Friday. That will give me all next week and a 3 day weekend to screw with it.

 

As a bit of an update. I rode to work again this morning, and I'm about 90% sure I'm just dealing with a worn clutch and not oil contamination. The clutch slips pretty bad in 3rd, 4th and 5th when cold, but gets a little better after 10-15 min of riding. When warmed up, I can now make it slip in 5th at anytime I want.......and in 4th if I REALLY hammer it. Anyway, I'm gonna baby it home tonight and then probably ride tomorrow as well just to empty the gas tank. Then I can start working on it Friday afternoon with a cold engine and empty gas tank.

 

If anyone in the York/Lancaster area wants to stop by and laugh at me while I bust my knuckles, just shoot me a PM and I'll give you directions

[Mike T]

Do the clutch assembly now and worry about the tranny rebuild latter since you will likely be without your bike the rest of the riding season is you send out the tranny now. Besides, the second time you do the job it will take you half as much time as the first time.

[bmweerman]

All excellent advice so far.

 

I can totally relate to your situation and my advice is..

 

1) My personal experience after doing 5 oilhead clutches is that only 1 in 5 has needed the housing replaced. I would order just the friction plate, and possibly the spring, and then wait and see until you get in there if the housing is good or not. Odds are in your favor it will not need to replace it.

 

2) RE your transmission, if it ain't broke don't fix it. Ride the sucker 'till it dies.

 

3) Get Ted's video as suggested.

 

4) Rubber Chicken Racing Garage is your friend. Your call if you want to change the tapered needle bearings on the final with the brass ones (they are expensive, but worth it) but they also sell Honda 60 moly paste and Locktite 270 if they are not available locally.

 

In a perfect world you could have your transmission rebuilt, replace ALL the parts, etc. But, to state the stunningly obvious, the world ain't perfect.

 

Best of luck!!!

 

 

 

[mistral]

Hate to ask this, but on the alingnment studs, you are talking about leaving them in right?

 

Ron

[Boffin]

When pulling the tranny, you remove two bolts and replace them with the studs. This keeps eveything in line whilst pulling the tranny, preventing the clutch rod and input splines being loaded and possibly damaged.

 

The studs stay in until the tranny is re-fitted and some of the other bolts tightened - then they come out (hence the screw slots)

 

BTW, the clutch slave has to come off and at that point it is best to pull the clutch pushrod as this means it cannot get bent whilst moving the heavy tranny casing around.

 

Andy

[mistral]

Thanks Andy. Good trick, good advice.

 

Ron

[jjg3]

Having just gone through this, I got longer bolts to use as alignment pins (cut the heads, made slots) and unless the purpose made tools are tons better, I think you could do the whole bit easier without them.

Absolutely take the actuator shaft out first. That eliminates any chance of bending. Using a bike lift as a transmission jack made it easy to back the trans out. On reassembly, I had a heck of a time aligning everything while trying to get the splines to line up. Finally fed up, I took the pins out, it was easy to rotate the shaft and the whole thing quickly slid into place. The actuator shaft went in last so, again, there was no chance at bending anything.

 

I did have to unbolt/redo everything a couple of times. I couldn't get the rear brake lines lined up. They were routed in front of the fuel injector lines. After routing them behind the injector lines, one brake line wouldn't line up. In my case, the brake lines had to go between the 2 fuel lines. I took pictures, but never would have thought to take a picture of that specific set-up and I just couldn't figure out why the brake lines weren't working out because it wasn't just obvious.

 

So, because you don't know what you don't know, there may be some level of learning curve.

[OoPEZoO]

Thanks for all the helps guys. I've recieved quite a few PM's and private emails offering support and help. I certainly appreciate ALL of it. This really is a great place with wonderfull people.

 

The bike will be parked tonight when I get home from work, with the plan of starting on it tomorrow afternoon.......but knowing me, I'll have half of it torn apart by the time I go to bed tonight. I'll make sure to take a bunch if pictures and post up progress reports as I go.

[GSman]

[OoPEZoO]

You know.....its funny. Today, I intentionally tried like hell to get the clutch to slip. Highway, back roads, uphill, flat ground, low gear, high gear, full throttle red line pulls from 2nd all the way through 5th........It wouldn't slip one bit, no matter what.

 

Now I'm starting to wonder if it was just glazed due poor adjustment and riding 2-up last Saturday morning. As the week goes on, it keeps getting better and better. I know I need to get in there at some point, but now I'm not so sure its ASAP

 

Hmm.....do I put it off, or tear into it this weekend? Ahh, I love this bike.

[Ken H.]

Having just gone through this, I got longer bolts to use as alignment pins (cut the heads, made slots) and unless the purpose made tools are tons better,

They aren't (the OEM alignment pins). I've got and have used both, and the make your own ones work just fine and a whole lot cheaper.

[azpilot06]

FWIW, I've got just about the same screwy behaviors on a 2000 RT-P. I know that the clutch was R&R'd about 15K miles ago, and it's somewhat slipped ever since I bought it. However, somedays, I can hammer the crap out of it and it hooks up beautifully...other times, I'll pull away from a stop, and it acts like the clutch is almost completely toast. I've been riding it that way for about 5K miles, and get the same range of odd behaviors.

 

I've got the replacement disc and bolts on the shelf in the garage, but am having a hard time bringing myself to pull it apart unless I'm convinced it's toast. My 6K is coming up in the next month, and I'm tempted to add a few oz of the "ATF stop-leak" stuff to the trans fluid (and maybe a stop-leak additive to the engine oil) to see if my private suspicion can be confirmed - that the plate is being intermittently contaminated by seal seepage, and sometimes is functioning properly due to burning off the contaminants, until the next batch of fresh fluids re-contaminate it.

 

Thankfully, I've now got the LT to ride if and when I've gotta tear it down...but I'm having a similar hard time tearing the beast in half if I can in any way avoid it, and if she's still rideable.

 

Good luck, and let us know what you find.

[OoPEZoO]

Well, here is how I spent my morning. It really wasn't hard at all, just tedious. Start to finish took under 4 hours, and that included screwing around with my exhaust for 30 min and a lunch break.

 

 

Now onto the results.......the good news, the clutch is shot.....the bad news, so are the splines. I'm just gonna post up a few pics and see what everyone thinks. I'm not sure what my next plan of action is going to be.

 

I didn't mess with separating the swingarm and final drive. I just decided to slide it back as a complete unit along with the transmission.

 

The clutch friction plate was still within BMW's spec of 4.5mm. It read 4.9mm with my crappo caliper, but the disk was worn even with the rivets at a few spots.....so it was definitely shot

 

I'm not an expert, but I think the spring plate looked pretty chewed up as well. Those scoring marks you see in the pic are pretty deep.

 

You can also see the discoloration of the pressure plate and the housing. In the close up pic, you can actually see some stress/heat fractures. I'm glad I decided to order a complete clutch kit instead of just the friction plate

 

Next, onto the center of the clutch plate. You can obviously see the odd wear pattern on the clutch disk. Its not pretty. Here are shots from both sides of the friction plate.

 

And finally, onto the transmission splines. This first pic is before I touched anything. You can see that I have a leaking tranny seal, plus the stripped splines. It looks as though the splines are literally about 90% gone. They were hanging on by the hair of their chinny chin chin.

 

And here is a better pic that I took after I cleaned everything up with some parts cleaner.

 

 

So the clutch is shot (complete kit should be here Tuesday), and the splines are trashed. I need to figure out what my options are. I think I have convinced myself that spline failures are an alignment issue, so I'm not really sure repairing the tranny is a good option. Either way, I need some moral support. So do I

 

Replace the input shaft in my tranny?

Replace the input shaft AND the front cover of my tranny hoping to fix the alignment issue?

Attempt to find and buy a used tranny?

Call the dealer and see if they are willing to help at all (obviously an extreme long shot on a 9 year old bike with 100k miles that I didn't buy from them)

Other?

 

As a side note, the original owner had the bike torn apart under warranty by Bob's due to "shifting issues". Bob's found the splines bone dry and extremely rusty. They cleaned, lubed, and buttoned it all back together under warranty......so there is at least some prior history in the BMW computers about this particular bike.

 

Also, I have every intention of keeping the bike and putting another 100k miles on it......so doing it "right" is my main objective. I just don't know what "right" is.

[Huzband]

And to think how much faith we put into rocket scientists.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

At least we won't be rescuing your worn out wreck from the side of the BRP.

[OoPEZoO]

At least we won't be rescuing your worn out wreck from the side of the BRP.

 

Nope....at this rate I'll be clogging up the BRP with my old man's Goldwing

[Huzband]

At least we won't be rescuing your worn out wreck from the side of the BRP.

 

Nope....at this rate I'll be clogging up the BRP with my old man's Goldwing

 

And Shannon thought you were slow last spring.

[T__]

Keith, you got 100,000 out of the original so the alignment can’t be too awful bad..

 

You will probably get similar out of the new shaft & clutch..

 

What color is the gear oil in the trans? Any signs the sealed bearings are bleeding into the gear oil?

 

Definitely re-seal the trans while you have it apart..

 

Maybe also install a new rear main seal in the engine while it’s that far apart (hate to have to tear it down in the near future for that)

 

Good rule of thumb on all you find,,, if it’s worn replace it..

 

You might find more in the trans when you pull that apart..

 

 

 

Twisty

 

[Tony_K]

If that bike really has 100k on it without a trans failure you lucked out.

You will need to tear the whole thing apart to the innards and replace the usual suspects.

Also, I took my trans out the same way.

You have to take it all apart (final and shaft) to put it back in so just tear it all down now.

 

Luckily the stars aligned for my job with 2 replacement trannys from Cameron and a awesome guy (Matthias) to make them into one... for CHEAP! The grunt work was free thanks to my 2 mitts.

[OoPEZoO]

What color is the gear oil in the trans? Any signs the sealed bearings are bleeding into the gear oil?

 

I just replaced the gear oil less than 1k miles ago. It was in there about 15k miles and came out looking as good as it did going in. The magnetic drain plug looked fine as well. My plan was to leave this new oil in for about 10k miles and then send a sample out to Blackstone. So much for that.......but I'm assuming the guts of the tranny are still in good shape.

[OoPEZoO]

At least we won't be rescuing your worn out wreck from the side of the BRP.

 

Nope....at this rate I'll be clogging up the BRP with my old man's Goldwing

 

And Shannon thought you were slow last spring.

 

Yeah, but I'll be pretty. AND we'll have a great game to use for a door prize. Guess how many lights are on the Goldwing......last time I stopped counting it was in the 150+ range

[keithb]

Thanks for the pictorial Keith. I look forward to hearing the final analysis of parts and pieces to repair it.

[Huzband]

Yeah, but I'll be pretty.

 

You wish.

[smiller]

 

Well, new input shaft fer sure, which will also serve to replace the failing rear bearing (even though you don't know it yet. )

 

Your pressure plate is in abnormally poor condition, probably helped into that state by the slipping clutch. But no matter since you have the entire kit on the way.

 

Personally I wouldn't be too happy about whatever caused the spline failure (for some reason these spline issues really seem to concentrate around the 2000-2004 model years), especially since you want to run the bike another 100k. Even at your mileage I wouldn't consider that normal wear and probably is indicative of some alignment issue, albeit relatively mild compared to some. Hard to say whether it's worth trying to resolve it though... maybe with close attention to lubrication it won't end up being an issue for the remaining life of the bike. A new cover (which may or may not solve the problem) is $190 at Chicago BMW... don't know what I'd do...

 

 

 

[OoPEZoO]

Well Seth, at least you see my quandary. I've got 4 beers in me and about 9 browser windows open checking information, prices, and tear downs between here and ADV. This isn't really how I wanted to spend my evening......well, the beer maybe, but not this other crap.

[OoPEZoO]

How I spent my summer vacation

 

[Woodie]

LOL!

 

(Ducking, since I'll probably be in your position before too long!)

 

 

[smiller]

 

Well look at it this way... I don't know that a new cover will cure the problem, but for a fee of only $19 per 10,000 miles (over the net 100k you put on the bike) you can buy the right to believe it will.

 

And who knows, maybe it really will and then you can report it here and be BMOC for a while...

 

 

[OoPEZoO]

You know......Marty is supposed to be stopping by in a few weeks. Maybe he knows a place I could buy a slightly used 1200GS

[bmwmick]

Keith,

Great pics! I agree with Seth in that I would not put it back in without at least 'attempting' to fix the misalignment problem. Yours looks like the tranny is coming at the engine at a slight angle (angular misalignment). Lubrication will do nothing to extend it's life.

 

Mick

[smiller]

... I would not put it back in without at least 'attempting' to fix the misalignment problem.

And if so I can see three options...

 

1. Try to evaluate all of the ideas and measurement techniques that have been floated here, Advrider, etc. and attack the problem... somehow... kind of mind numbing...

 

2. Order a new cover, install, and pray.

 

3. Find a decent used unit, which wouldn't cost much more (maybe less) than what you'd spend on a new input shaft and front cover for your current unit. Trouble with that one is that good used M97's are scarce (for reasons which should be obvious to anyone who follows these threads.)

 

 

[OoPEZoO]

I'm leaning towards the new cover and a new input shaft.......but I'm definitely going to sleep on it. I'll do some searching tomorrow and see if I can come up with the measurements I need to check the front cover I have.

[Paul Mihalka]

Well, no opinion on my part whether a new gearbox cover is needed or would help, but a bit of my '99 R1100RT's clutch spline history.

On previous series BMW bikes there always was a service recommendation for spline lube service. If I remember well, 20K miles for airheads and 40K miles for early K bikes. As on the new oilhead bikes there was no recommended service for the splines I left them alone. I think it was a mistake. At about 100K miles the splines were gone. We replaced the input shaft, all the bearings and seals in the gearbox, and the clutch. After that it got spline lubing at every +/- 30K miles. I sold the bike with 175K, and is running at around 200K with the second owner without a problem. Your bike got a spline lubing at around 30 or 40k in Spike's hands and lasted until now.

[Spike]

Yeah, I have the work order in my hand right now. The spline lube was performed on 4/5/03 with 35,595 on the odometer.

 

 

 

[OoPEZoO]

Thanks for looking that up Spike. That really helps with my decision making process. I'm assuming that when the work was done at 35k miles, that the splines still looked good.....and they were just dry/rusty. That makes me think a new input shaft followed up by annual spline inspections/lubes should keep it happy for another 100k miles.

 

Now comes the question if I think I can tackle the internal transmission rebuilding myself or farm it out.

[T__]

Thanks for looking that up Spike. That really helps with my decision making process. I'm assuming that when the work was done at 35k miles, that the splines still looked good.....and they were just dry/rusty. That makes me think a new input shaft followed up by annual spline inspections/lubes should keep it happy for another 100k miles.

 

Now comes the question if I think I can tackle the internal transmission rebuilding myself or farm it out.

 

 

Keith, you can at least take it apart yourself to see how it looks inside.. If all looks good then you can then make the decision.. If there are a lot of problems inside it might be cheaper to find a used trans.. No sense in paying someone to tear it apart if you plan to replace it..

 

Have you pushed in real hard on the input shaft (see Mitch’s post on input shaft).. If you have a springy movement there you definitely have other issues..

 

By looking at your pictures your plate has some very asymmetrical wear patterns in it.. Might just be the angle of the picture you took but if it isn’t camera induced you were getting more hot spots & engagement heat on one side than the other.. Might just be the cause of the angular wear on the splines..

 

 

 

 

 

 

Twisty

[Matts_12GS]

Keith,

That's about exactly what I went through with my 98 RT.

 

At about 66000 miles I was passing a dump truck on a two lane, downshifted to get around him and the engine just spun...

 

I pulled it apart and my splines were in worse shape than yours.

I put a whole clutch kit in and had the input shaft and all seals replaced by BMW Tampa Bay while I waited on a Saturday morning while I waited. total bill was about $1800 for the kit and the trans work but the bike was rock solid after that.