Killboy - NOT!!!! But we did try some Ridin' Pics

[Twisties]

Inspired by the Anatomy of a Bad Turn threads, I've been wanting to see what I look like on the bike, really, it's not totally narcisistic! I swear. I promise. Well ok, it's probably some of that, but hey, I might learn something too.

 

Today, mostly, I learned how not to take riding pictures. Next time we'll try some faster shutter speeds, a bigger aperature (more like f4 or lower, these are at f8), and a bigger lens. Might try to get on the inside of the curves so the rider is looking at the camera, and need to be sure to catch the apex and the follow through/run out more. Also try to get some shots directly to the side of the rider while at the apex. Lots to work on. Does Killboy have multiple cameras staged throughout a single turn?

 

Comments welcome...

 

While I was waiting for Bullett (Sharon) this rider came by. He's holding up traffic (yeah, not just the Mustang, but in the last frame you can see a truck, he's holding up a truck!) and takes a center line through the curve, but at least he looks through the turn. Classic MSF (SlowLookPressRoll) style I'd say. Counter-balancing is causing him to over-lean the bike, and he probably thinks he's going really fast.

 

 

 

 

Now here comes Bullett. She's catching the same lean angle as our unknown lead biker, but is probably carrying twice the speed. Unfortunately I didn't follow her through the run out. Live and learn:

 

 

 

 

 

 

My turn. On my first pass this fellow caused me to alter my line and pull-up some in mid-turn.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This is coming back down for a second pass. I think it looks wrong. Like my torso starts off leaning into the turn, but upper body hasn't followed, and the shoulders and head are almost vertical. I see this a lot when riding behind others. Sometimes only the hips are aligned with the seat, and the entire torso is vertical, or even counter-balanced. In this case I think it's just that I'm moving relatively slow and am very relaxed. If I were really into the turn, I hope my head would be over inside more. Or, it may just be that the shot is late in the turn, I may be starting to move the bike vertical. Not sure.

 

 

Second run. Felt good.

 

 

Bullett totally caught the late apex, right on the money!

 

 

 

 

[leikam]

It's hard to see what this corner is like, but from these photos, I'm liking the slow guy's line better than either of yours. You two look awfully close to the fog line without any particular reason that I can see.

 

Could you post a google maps link showing us where this corner is?

[Twisties]

We were both a little surprised to see our line too. We're going to have to go back with the gps to figure out which turn it is.

 

Jan

[tallman]

Anyone else getting a page of X ?

[Twisties]

Smugmug is down. They have a temporary service interruption notice posted on their home page. Give it an hour or two.

[tallman]

Gracias.

[Twisties]

N40 37.484 W 111 45.964

 

Yesterday's shots were taken from a position about 30 - 40' SE of this spot. It comes up nicely on Google Earth, but I don't know how to link to that. You can enter the coordinates though. Here it is on Google Maps.

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&geocode=&q=N40+37.484+W+111+45.964&ie=UTF8&ll=40.623623,-111.767161&spn=0.002813,0.00456&z=18&layer=c&cbll=40.624488,-111.765681&panoid=S9XSleAFLXkLciV4JJeZQQ

 

Today we tried some different shots. Smugmug is still down though. We'll post later.

[AdventurePoser]

From where I sit, just a bunch of Xs... .hopefully smug mug will come back up-I'd love to see the photos!

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

[Huzband]

From where I sit, just a bunch of Xs... .hopefully smug mug will come back up-I'd love to see the photos!

 

Cheers,

 

Steve

 

You're not missing anything. I saw 'em earlier.

 

P.S., He's not as slow as he talks.

[russell_bynum]

First of all, bravo. Very few riders take this stuff serious enough to actually work at being better. Seeing and analyzing photos of yourself is a great way to learn. (Video is even better.) Posting here for everyone to nitpick everything from your line to the dirt on your brake caliper bolts ("You guys could analyze a haircut." -Gleno) takes real guts.

 

 

From what I can see, Body position looks decent, but it looks like you've turned in a bit early.

[JustJean]

I get the photos just fine and they look great! Nice work!!

 

 

[motorman587]

I am X out too.

[Twisties]

Looks like Smugmug is up and down some right now, probably due to heavy load after they brought it in on line. Anyway, pics are up loaded.

 

First, some fun shots:

 

For Mr. Whip

 

 

Then, you know, this one is captioned, "Wow, Niiiiccceee Helmet"

 

 

What I think you may notice is that overhead view you get on Google Maps and Earth makes it look simpler than what you see in the photos. Yesterday we were really only showing you the exit from the turn.

 

Here is the approach:

 

 

 

The entry:

 

 

Through the turn:

 

 

 

The shrubby tree just ahead of me on the right is the one you saw casting shadows in yesterday's shots. I'm just now at the point you might have first seen me yesterday.

 

 

 

 

Ok, here comes Bullett (Actually, she went first, but glacially slow Smugmug hadn't finished processing all the shots of her yet). I have the longer lens on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

More Grins: Caption "Nice shoes, Lady. Hey, don't skin those knees on any passing cars."

 

 

 

 

 

 

[russell_bynum]

 

This shot definitely shows an early turn-in.

 

Keep it out wide until you can see the exit of the turn. Then snap the bike down, square the turn off, and fire it out. That would give you better sight lines, makes it easier to deal with a decreasing radius that may be hidden, minimizes the amount of time you spend leaned over, and also forces you to keep your entry speed down.

 

 

Ok, here comes Bullett (Actually, she went first, but glacially slow Smugmug hadn't finished processing all the shots of her yet). I have the longer lens on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

More Grins: Caption "Nice shoes, Lady. Hey, don't skin those knees on any passing cars."

 

This is a classic mistake. Bullet's upper body position (kiss the mirrors) is looking good at first. Then, as she gets into the turn and the bike leans, she sits back upright. Her mind is seeing the ground getting closer and saying "There be dragons there...don't go down there." Of course...the whole point of the "kiss the mirrors" thing is minimizing lean angle to increase traction and therefore make it less likely that you'll have a run-in with any of the pavement-dwelling dragons. Sitting upright is totally counterproductive...it's a survival reaction, and though is may be appropriate in the context of eons of human evolution, it is not appropriate in the context of riding a motorcycle.

 

So...how to fix it?

 

In both of your cases, I'll say, "Slow down"

 

Turning in early is a very common survival reaction, and survival reactions tend to pop up when things are happening too fast for your brain to stay in a logical state. You're affraid of running wide, so you turn in. Your emotional brain says, "The inside of the road is safety, the outside is danger...get inside as fast as possible." Slow down until you can keep your emotional brain quiet and force yourself to stay out wide until you can see the exit of the turn.

 

Same thing in Bullet's case. Slow down until you can keep the "kiss the mirrors" position all the way through the turn, not bringing your upper body back over the bike until after the bike is upright.

[Albert]

Russell's comments are as good an explaination as I've heard on the subject. I'm not qualified to critique your style other than to applaud you as well for working to improve your riding.

 

Russell's comments reminded me of the Ride Smart I did several years ago with Mark ("StretchMark") filming me from behind. When we did the video session that night I was appalled at the glaring bad habits that 40 years of riding had instilled (in fact I was the perfect poster child for how NOT to do it ). After 2 years of steady practice since that day I feel that I've almost "unlearned" my shortcomings. It is still at times a conscious effort but I am slowly making correct body position second nature. I can also say that when it all comes together there's no better feeling than the almost effortless sweep through a turn done well.

[JustJean]

Poor Squirrel.

[russell_bynum]

I'm not qualified to critique your style

 

Just a note on that...as a rider, you ARE qualified to critique someone else's style.

 

The worst thing that could happen is your critique will be wrong...in which case, discussion here will hopefully set you straight and you'll come out of the discussion ahead of the curve.

 

With 40 years of riding under your belt, you definitely have experience that is worth sharing. As a RideSmart graduate, you've got some knowledge and understanding about the how and why of cornering.

 

That's what this Ride Well forum is about. It's about sharing the lessons of experience, and bringing our ideas up to see if they withstand the trial of open discussion.

[SageRider]

Poor Squirrel.

The squirrel is just another critic....

[motorman587]

This is a classic mistake. Bullet's upper body position (kiss the mirrors) is looking good at first. Then, as she gets into the turn and the bike leans, she sits back upright. Her mind is seeing the ground getting closer and saying "There be dragons there...don't go down there." Of course...the whole point of the "kiss the mirrors" thing is minimizing lean angle to increase traction and therefore make it less likely that you'll have a run-in with any of the pavement-dwelling dragons. Sitting upright is totally counterproductive...it's a survival reaction, and though is may be appropriate in the context of eons of human evolution, it is not appropriate in the context of riding a motorcycle.

 

I respectfully disagree that sitting up straight is "not appropriate" in the context of riding a motorcycle. Have been doing it professionally for the last 15 years. Your "kissing the mirror" is a technique as is "sitting up straight", which is taught in all motor schools and MSF (BRC and ERC) courses. I would not tell you that "kissing mirrors" is not appropriate. That is your riding style. If you use the proper entry speed and the correct path of travel, outside-inside- outside you really do not have to worry about the lean angle because you are sitting up straight. I know do it daily on an RTP. Hope this does not cause WWIII.

[Twisties]

Poor Squirrel.

 

Yes, Poor Squirrel. We were thinking that too, on the other hand we felt a little ashamed that we couldn't stop laughing because it looked so funny with it's feet sticking up. I thought about trying to edit it out of the pics, but I'm still learning photoshop.

 

When you coming back to finish your Yellowstone trip?

 

See ya,

 

Jan

 

[Twisties]

That's what this Ride Well forum is about. It's about sharing the lessons of experience, and bringing our ideas up to see if they withstand the trial of open discussion.

 

That's what I'm hoping for from this, some discussion. We're still essentially novices to this kind of riding, and it shows. We've had the RT's 15 months now. With any luck the discussion helps others as well. I think a lot of good was done in the earlier photo posts by Mitch, and was it Tom (3Putt)? Here is a different curve, two riders of different experience.

 

For my part what I've gotten from this so far is:

 

1. Taking these photos well is really hard and takes practice. I've also for the first time found the limitations of my camera body for rapid shots. I may go to the point and shoot if we do more of this.

 

2. My body position is at least ok. I remember from the earlier posts one of the riders was surprised to see his body position wasn't what he thought it was. Mine is doing what I thought. We aren't going terribly fast in these shots, and I can certainly scooch back slightly more, lean more forward, and wider, and slide my butt an inch if I need to. But I didn't need to. It is reassuring to see that where I am on the bike is where I thought I was, and that at least one more experienced rider thinks the position looks ok.

 

3. I need to rethink line. I was surprised to see the line in the pics, and two commentors have remarked on the line. I need to figure out if this is something I do consistently, or if there is something about this turn. Right now I think it's that I'm letting the camber of the turn force my line. But, I will find a way to test that and make appropriate adjustments. I also note, that I didn't have a great deal of awareness of where I was on the road. Another aspect to work on.

 

Anyway, have it, I'd like to see more opinions, and if you feel inspired, go on out and get some pics of your own to add.

[Twisties]

This is a classic mistake. Bullet's upper body position (kiss the mirrors) is looking good at first. Then, as she gets into the turn and the bike leans, she sits back upright. Her mind is seeing the ground getting closer and saying "There be dragons there...don't go down there." Of course...the whole point of the "kiss the mirrors" thing is minimizing lean angle to increase traction and therefore make it less likely that you'll have a run-in with any of the pavement-dwelling dragons. Sitting upright is totally counterproductive...it's a survival reaction, and though is may be appropriate in the context of eons of human evolution, it is not appropriate in the context of riding a motorcycle.

 

I respectfully disagree that sitting up straight is "not appropriate" in the context of riding a motorcycle. Have been doing it professionally for the last 15 years. Your "kissing the mirror" is a technique as is "sitting up straight", which is taught in all motor schools and MSF (BRC and ERC) courses. I would not tell you that "kissing mirrors" is not appropriate. That is your riding style. If you use the proper entry speed and the correct path of travel, outside-inside- outside you really do not have to worry about the lean angle because you are sitting up straight. I know do it daily on an RTP. Hope this does not cause WWIII.

 

I think it's a great topic to discuss!

 

Well, the theory is that by riding more actively, and "kissing the mirrors", you are always safer in a turn because you keep the bike more upright. This increases the tire patch cross-section, and results in greater traction.

 

So the MSF approach, Slow, Look, Press, Roll is not incorrect, but requires a greater lean angle, all else being the same, and is therefore riskier.

 

Additionally, the "press" aspect tends to result in being stiff and heavy on the bars, and leads to less ability to respond. As it was described to me, using body position, foot pressure, and a light touch on the bars results in finer inputs to the bike and creates greater overall control.

 

I was exposed to this last September after 3 and half years of riding the MSF way. I've been practicing ever since. Sometimes I still fall into old habits. A few times I've switched in the middle of a turn when I've caught myself. It's like 15 mph came off when I slack my inside arm and move into a lean. Plus, it's more fun.

 

Jan

[russell_bynum]

This is a classic mistake. Bullet's upper body position (kiss the mirrors) is looking good at first. Then, as she gets into the turn and the bike leans, she sits back upright. Her mind is seeing the ground getting closer and saying "There be dragons there...don't go down there." Of course...the whole point of the "kiss the mirrors" thing is minimizing lean angle to increase traction and therefore make it less likely that you'll have a run-in with any of the pavement-dwelling dragons. Sitting upright is totally counterproductive...it's a survival reaction, and though is may be appropriate in the context of eons of human evolution, it is not appropriate in the context of riding a motorcycle.

 

I respectfully disagree that sitting up straight is "not appropriate" in the context of riding a motorcycle. Have been doing it professionally for the last 15 years. Your "kissing the mirror" is a technique as is "sitting up straight", which is taught in all motor schools and MSF (BRC and ERC) courses.

 

Motor officers and the MSF are all training and low speed, where traction isn't much of an issue. In that context, sitting upright, or even counter-balancing the other way, IS the best way to go. It's also the best way to go in the dirt, unless you like losing the front and crashing. DAMHIK.

 

In this context: Cornering at speed, it is the wrong way to go. Sitting upright (or worse, counter-balancing) increases lean angle for a given speed/radius. That means your suspension doesn't work as well. That means less available traction. Can you dispute any of that?

 

If you use the proper entry speed and the correct path of travel, outside-inside- outside you really do not have to worry about the lean angle because you are sitting up straight.

 

Entry Speed, Line, and Lean angle are all components that you need to manage. Sure...you could set your entry speed and line so that excessive lean angle (caused by poor body position) doesn't bite you (most of the time), but that doesn't mean it's right.

 

I know do it daily on an RTP.

 

Lots of people do the wrong thing on a daily basis and get away with it. That doesn't mean it's right. I grew up on dirt bikes, where the riding style you talk about is crucial. That transferred to my street riding. I rode tens of thousands of miles like that and never crashed, but that doesn't mean it was right.

 

Here's a shot of me in a corner on my RT:

 

My line is good: A very late apex.

My body position is bad (counter-balancing), which forced excessive lean angle. In that shot, my footpeg is on the ground, my bellypan is on the ground, and my valve cover is just above the ground. Sure...I could slow down and that would buy back some of that lean angle. Or I could use better body position, keep the same speed, and have much more lean angle to work with. As it was, if I had needed to tighten my turn, or even roll off the throttle a little bit, it would have been checkmate. I had no more lean angle to work with...due mostly to my poor body position.

 

 

 

 

[russell_bynum]

Well, the theory is that by riding more actively, and "kissing the mirrors", you are always safer in a turn because you keep the bike more upright. This increases the tire patch cross-section, and results in greater traction.

 

Actually, it's about getting the suspension more upright so that it works better. With a modern sport tire, the contact patch often actually gets bigger when you're leaned...until you lean enough that the contact patch reaches the edge of the tire (i.e. "No chicken strips") any more lean past that point will decrease the size of the contact patch.

 

 

So the MSF approach, Slow, Look, Press, Roll is not incorrect, but requires a greater lean angle, all else being the same, and is therefore riskier.

 

Slow, look, press, roll isn't about body position. Slow, means low entry speed. That's good. Look means look through the corner. That's good. Press means countersteer. That's good. Roll means roll on the gas to firm up the suspension, increase ground clearance, and get the weight distribution correct (about 60/40 rear/front). That's good.

 

You can (and should) do all of that while "kissing the mirrors".

 

 

Additionally, the "press" aspect tends to result in being stiff and heavy on the bars, and leads to less ability to respond. As it was described to me, using body position, foot pressure, and a light touch on the bars results in finer inputs to the bike and creates greater overall control.

 

Ooh...this is a good point. The mantra should probably be Slow. Look. Press. Release. Roll. Countersteering should be a finite press/release. Lots of riders press, and the counter that pressure with their other hand, which results in them being tight on the bars. If the bike is properly balanced (a factor of throttle control and body position), you should be able to let go of the bars and the bike would maintain it's arc until it ran out of gas and fell over. If you're having to hold pressure in the turn to maintain your line, there's something not right.

 

Light grip on the bars allows them to move a bit as the front wheel tracks over bumps and into the turn. It also prevents bumps from being transferred through the chassis to your body and back to the bars as steering inputs.

 

 

[Bullett]

Thanks for the critique.

[Huzband]

Russell's comments are spot on.

 

Having ridden behind both of you, I'll reinforce one of his points.

 

Both of you early apex, & that's a BIG RideSmart no-no.

 

There's still room in this week-ends class, & you have plenty of time to get here.

[motorman587]

Motor officers and the MSF are all training and low speed, where traction isn't much of an issue. In that context, sitting upright, or even counter-balancing the other way, IS the best way to go. It's also the best way to go in the dirt, unless you like losing the front and crashing. DAMHIK.

 

In this context: Cornering at speed, it is the wrong way to go. Sitting upright (or worse, counter-balancing) increases lean angle for a given speed/radius. That means your suspension doesn't work as well. That means less available traction. Can you dispute any of that?

 

Motor school and MSF are not all about slow speed. There are two ways to steer a motorcycle. Low speeds, which is turning the steering wheel, which you can counter balance, if needed or at speed, which is above about 10-12 mph then you need to counter-steer. Again these are techniques. We at motor school have about 1/2 track with a couple of turns where we practice that.

 

Can I dispute that. Sure, why is there a bigger tire in the rear of the motorcycle?? Because when you roll on the throttle traction goes to the rear of tire, does not mean your suspension is not working. I would love too, just out disscusion video tape a courner both techniques just to compare. Lets have curve turn contect....

[motorman587]

This is a classic mistake. Bullet's upper body position (kiss the mirrors) is looking good at first. Then, as she gets into the turn and the bike leans, she sits back upright. Her mind is seeing the ground getting closer and saying "There be dragons there...don't go down there." Of course...the whole point of the "kiss the mirrors" thing is minimizing lean angle to increase traction and therefore make it less likely that you'll have a run-in with any of the pavement-dwelling dragons. Sitting upright is totally counterproductive...it's a survival reaction, and though is may be appropriate in the context of eons of human evolution, it is not appropriate in the context of riding a motorcycle.

 

I respectfully disagree that sitting up straight is "not appropriate" in the context of riding a motorcycle. Have been doing it professionally for the last 15 years. Your "kissing the mirror" is a technique as is "sitting up straight", which is taught in all motor schools and MSF (BRC and ERC) courses.

 

Motor officers and the MSF are all training and low speed, where traction isn't much of an issue. In that context, sitting upright, or even counter-balancing the other way, IS the best way to go. It's also the best way to go in the dirt, unless you like losing the front and crashing. DAMHIK.

 

In this context: Cornering at speed, it is the wrong way to go. Sitting upright (or worse, counter-balancing) increases lean angle for a given speed/radius. That means your suspension doesn't work as well. That means less available traction. Can you dispute any of that?

 

If you use the proper entry speed and the correct path of travel, outside-inside- outside you really do not have to worry about the lean angle because you are sitting up straight.

 

Entry Speed, Line, and Lean angle are all components that you need to manage. Sure...you could set your entry speed and line so that excessive lean angle (caused by poor body position) doesn't bite you (most of the time), but that doesn't mean it's right.

 

I know do it daily on an RTP.

 

Lots of people do the wrong thing on a daily basis and get away with it. That doesn't mean it's right. I grew up on dirt bikes, where the riding style you talk about is crucial. That transferred to my street riding. I rode tens of thousands of miles like that and never crashed, but that doesn't mean it was right.

 

Here's a shot of me in a corner on my RT:

 

My line is good: A very late apex.

My body position is bad (counter-balancing), which forced excessive lean angle. In that shot, my footpeg is on the ground, my bellypan is on the ground, and my valve cover is just above the ground. Sure...I could slow down and that would buy back some of that lean angle. Or I could use better body position, keep the same speed, and have much more lean angle to work with. As it was, if I had needed to tighten my turn, or even roll off the throttle a little bit, it would have been checkmate. I had no more lean angle to work with...due mostly to my poor body position.

 

 

 

 

To me this looks as if the entry speed was to hot. More lean angle was due to the speed not because you where kissing the mirrors. Also if you kept your head level this would've helped too. Slow, look, lean, and roll..........

[Boffin]

To me this looks as if the entry speed was to hot. More lean angle was due to the speed not because you where kissing the mirrors. Also if you kept your head level this would've helped too. Slow, look, lean, and roll..........

 

More lean angle was because he was upright - leaning away from the corner. Simple physics, if he was inline with the bike the lean angle would be lower. If he was kissing the mirrors (that means the INSIDE mirror) he would have his body weight inside the curve reducing lean angle further. Sitting upright is bad technique insofar as it reduces your margin even if travelling more slowly, less margin is never good.

 

Andy

[Albert]

All this is actually quite easy to demonstrate to one's self. Find a nice sweeping (safe) place to practice a turn. Go into that turn remaining upright or even leaning away from the turn. As you corner through the turn bring your upper body to the inside (kissing the mirror). You will be rewarded by an immediate response. Either a. you won't modify the lean angle of the bike and you will clip the inside of the turn (please don't do that), or b. you will be forced to reduce the lean angle of the bike to maintain a proper line throught the turn. Whatever reduction in lean angle that results is the extra margin that you didn't have using the upright technique.

[JustJean]

He was kinda funny looking, and that was the only comment I could make since I'm still a newby. But I'm reading to learn too!!

 

I have been depressed since I have been home, but I finally warmed up some. I would like to finish my tour of Yellowstone for sure!! I would love to get a picture of a Grizzly Bear!!

[russell_bynum]

To me this looks as if the entry speed was to hot. More lean angle was due to the speed not because you where kissing the mirrors. Also if you kept your head level this would've helped too. Slow, look, lean, and roll..........

 

More lean angle was because he was upright - leaning away from the corner. Simple physics, if he was inline with the bike the lean angle would be lower. If he was kissing the mirrors (that means the INSIDE mirror) he would have his body weight inside the curve reducing lean angle further. Sitting upright is bad technique insofar as it reduces your margin even if travelling more slowly, less margin is never good.

 

Andy

 

Exactly. There are three things you can change to impact your lean angle in a corner:

Radius (line)

Speed

Body position

 

That means that yes...I could have slowed down and that would have allowed me to carry less lean angle for that spead and line. Or I could use good body position (kiss the mirrors) to use the same line and speed with less lean angle.

[russell_bynum]

Motor school and MSF are not all about slow speed. There are two ways to steer a motorcycle. Low speeds, which is turning the steering wheel, which you can counter balance, if needed or at speed, which is above about 10-12 mph then you need to counter-steer. Again these are techniques.

 

counter-steering has nothing to do with this. Counter-steering is how you initiate a turn at anything but the very slowest speed. That has absolutely nothing to do with line, speed, body position, or lean angle.

 

What we're talking about is body position and how it impacts lean angle.

 

 

Can I dispute that. Sure, why is there a bigger tire in the rear of the motorcycle?? Because when you roll on the throttle traction goes to the rear of tire, does not mean your suspension is not working. I would love too, just out disscusion video tape a courner both techniques just to compare. Lets have curve turn contect....

 

John, I really don't know how to respond because what you just said seems to be about 3 completely unrelated ideas.

 

The suspension is designed to move along the veritcal axis of the bike. Except for minute little flexing and bending, that's the only way the suspension works...straight up and down the vertical axis of the bike. If the bike is leaned over and you hit a bump (or otherwise do something to generate a force that tries to move the suspension), that force is generally going to be straight up and down...pushing against the forks and shock from the side rather than along their axis.

 

The more upright the bike is, the more of that force goes into the suspension so that it can do it's job...maintain traction.

 

Why is the rear tire bigger? Because under acceleration, the bike's weight transfers more to the rear tire, and you're applying acceleration force to it as well so it needs to be bigger to handle that.

 

I have no idea what you're trying to say in those last two sentences.

[amz]

I always found a nice demonstration of what happens when you 'kiss the mirror' is to do it when going in a straight line.

 

E.g. 'kiss the right mirror,' even move your butt over to the right side. Your CG (center of gravity) will now be to the right and above the motorcycle's CG. This will result in the motorcycle wanting to lean to the right/turn right, and in order to keep going straight, you'll have to push on the left grip. Your bike will now be leaned to the left, with left 'counterstear.' (In effect, your are leaned so as to vertically align your and your bike's CGs [to counter gravity] and continue straight) Much the same happens in a corner when you 'kiss the mirror' (minus the left counterstear), only here you use some of this 'away lean' to reduce your actual required lean angle to corner, thus buying you more lean angle reserves, resp. more traction reserves.

 

[motorman587]

What is that saying here on the board, that some would argue over a hair cut? I am out numbered here so I am ending it with, be careful. My point in the beginning is riding up straight is not a bad thing nor is it in-correct. I guess I have been riding wrong all this years and all my motor cop buddies too. I guess I've been teaching MSF wrong too. And I do ride fast. These are all just techniques and if you believe the technique is the best/safest for you, than go for it. Ride safe.

[David]

What is that saying here on the board, that some would argue over a hair cut? I am out numbered here so I am ending it with, be careful. My point in the beginning is riding up straight is not a bad thing nor is it in-correct. I guess I have been riding wrong all this years and all my motor cop buddies too. I guess I've been teaching MSF wrong too.

 

Would you agree that this is possible?

 

And I do ride fast. These are all just techniques and if you believe the technique is the best/safest for you, than go for it. Ride safe.

 

That's about the scariest riding statement I've seen in awhile.

[russell_bynum]

What is that saying here on the board, that some would argue over a hair cut? I am out numbered here so I am ending it with, be careful. My point in the beginning is riding up straight is not a bad thing nor is it in-correct. I guess I have been riding wrong all this years and all my motor cop buddies too. I guess I've been teaching MSF wrong too. And I do ride fast. These are all just techniques and if you believe the technique is the best/safest for you, than go for it. Ride safe.

 

 

John, it has nothing to do with being outnumbered. Sitting upright IS bad in a turn at speed because it increases your lean angle and that decreases available traction.

 

Unless you can EITHER dispute any of that, OR explain the advantages of sitting upright, this isn't really a discussion, it's just you saying "It's how I do it and I haven't died yet, so it must be OK."

 

 

[ShovelStrokeEd]

You know, David made a comment on this a couple of years ago that has stuck in my mind since. I'll have to paraphrase here cause I am too lazy to go look up the reference.

 

When you have your body positioned well inside the bike during a turn, you can actually push the bike up and away from you to gain a little more ground clearance if stuff is rubbing.

 

I have used that technique many times when in a high speed cornering situation. Lean angle is getting a bit harsh, usually indicated by the outside of my foot hitting the ground. Lean upper body a bit more off the bike and push the bike upwards. Like magic, scuffing of boot stops, turning radius remains the same and the bike gets less nervous.

 

You can experiment with this on even gentle turns although the effect is more dramatic on high speed sweepers or decreasing radius corners. Less lean angle for a given speed/radius is a wonderful thing for maintaining margin, all important on the street.

[russell_bynum]

Yep. Superbike School calls that the "pick up drill" and they use it to get the bike upright sooner so you can get on the gas earlier...which you can do because you have more traction with the bike more upright.

 

A similar technique is what they call the "Hook turn". It's very similar from a body position perspective...you drop your upper body down more (kiss the mirrors) and hold your lean angle...which causes the bike to tighten up it's turn without requiring a traction-eating steering input.

 

 

[skyskier]

What is that saying here on the board, that some would argue over a hair cut? I am out numbered here so I am ending it with, be careful. My point in the beginning is riding up straight is not a bad thing nor is it in-correct. I guess I have been riding wrong all this years and all my motor cop buddies too. I guess I've been teaching MSF wrong too. And I do ride fast. These are all just techniques and if you believe the technique is the best/safest for you, than go for it. Ride safe.

 

John,

 

I think you would agree that there are good techniques and bad techniques when it comes to riding motorcycles. I will venture to say that done correctly sitting straight up could be a good technique. I will also veture to say that "kissing the mirror" is probably a better technique if done correctly. I say this because, if you could corner a motorcycle as fast sitting straight up as you can kissing the mirrors, there would be at least one MotoGP, Superbike, or Supersport rider that would use that technique.

 

I don't think it is a matter of right or wrong, more of a matter of good verses better. Kind of like what motor LEOs in the US wear as riding gear verses what the LEOs in Europe wear. I don't think anyone here would dispute that the LEOs in Europe are better protected. It doesn't make what the LEOs in the US wear wrong, just not as good.

[yabadabapal]

I wish I had something intelligent to say to all of you after reading all your posts on this subject. I am not anywhere near to being in the same league as all of you are. But I will say this.

I am proud to be a member of this club where you have all debated and discussed this matter in a professional and kindly manner.

[motorman587]

What is that saying here on the board, that some would argue over a hair cut? I am out numbered here so I am ending it with, be careful. My point in the beginning is riding up straight is not a bad thing nor is it in-correct. I guess I have been riding wrong all this years and all my motor cop buddies too. I guess I've been teaching MSF wrong too. And I do ride fast. These are all just techniques and if you believe the technique is the best/safest for you, than go for it. Ride safe.

 

John,

 

I think you would agree that there are good techniques and bad techniques when it comes to riding motorcycles. I will venture to say that done correctly sitting straight up could be a good technique. I will also veture to say that "kissing the mirror" is probably a better technique if done correctly. I say this because, if you could corner a motorcycle as fast sitting straight up as you can kissing the mirrors, there would be at least one MotoGP, Superbike, or Supersport rider that would use that technique.

 

I don't think it is a matter of right or wrong, more of a matter of good verses better. Kind of like what motor LEOs in the US wear as riding gear verses what the LEOs in Europe wear. I don't think anyone here would dispute that the LEOs in Europe are better protected. It doesn't make what the LEOs in the US wear wrong, just not as good.

 

Thank you, that was my point from the beginning and I got sucked in. Technique vs. riding style.

 

About motor cops clothing. You are correct about good vs. better. You must also add the fact the American LEO must talk to the violator vs getting a picture in the mail. The American LEO, depending where have to deal with 100+ heat. More likely to dye for heat stroke. The American LEO must where or do wear a bullet proof vest, which BTW has more upper and back protection than most motorcycle armor. There are some American LEOs ie Oregon and some in North Carolina that would make you proud. I know I sound like I am making excuses, but for me the heat is the killer with 30 pounds of gear. We tried flip ups, but where jus too hot in the summer.

 

Next time you go for a ride in the heat, gear up. Stand in the sun, ie running laser. Get off and on the bike, 10 or 15 times, walk about 25 feet to a car, ie traffic stop. Have sponse yell at you, and attempt write something on a pad, ie issuing a ticket to pissed off cage driver. Do this for 8 yours. See how long you would last???

[SageRider]

Next time you go for a ride in the heat, gear up. Stand in the sun, ie running laser. Get off and on the bike, 10 or 15 times, walk about 25 feet to a car, ie traffic stop. Have sponse yell at you, and attempt write something on a pad, ie issuing a ticket to pissed off cage driver. Do this for 8 yours. See how long you would last???

John, the easy solution to this would be not to stay stationary trying to pick off drivers with a laser gun. This would also reduce having to chase then stop and get off the bike as well as talking to someone who is pissed off.

Wouldn't you rather be riding anyway???

[David]

Thank you, that was my point from the beginning and I got sucked in. Technique vs. riding style.

 

John, I really enjoy your interactions around here, and I have a lot of respect for what you do. So I hope you won't think I'm just trying to be mean when I say that you've got to get your head out of the sand and quit lying to yourself. You're looking for false security, here, where there is none.

[motorman587]

Next time you go for a ride in the heat, gear up. Stand in the sun, ie running laser. Get off and on the bike, 10 or 15 times, walk about 25 feet to a car, ie traffic stop. Have sponse yell at you, and attempt write something on a pad, ie issuing a ticket to pissed off cage driver. Do this for 8 yours. See how long you would last???

John, the easy solution to this would be not to stay stationary trying to pick off drivers with a laser gun. This would also reduce having to chase then stop and get off the bike as well as talking to someone who is pissed off.

Wouldn't you rather be riding anyway???

 

True, but turning in zero tickets is not good. Plus we only have lasers no moving radar. We turned them as we were damaging them in the rain.

[motorman587]

Thank you, that was my point from the beginning and I got sucked in. Technique vs. riding style.

 

John, I really enjoy your interactions around here, and I have a lot of respect for what you do. So I hope you won't think I'm just trying to be mean when I say that you've got to get your head out of the sand and quit lying to yourself. You're looking for false security, here, where there is none.

 

Lying to myself about what??? That I could pick a line in a curve as well, sitting up straight, as you kissing the mirror???

[russell_bynum]

Thank you, that was my point from the beginning and I got sucked in. Technique vs. riding style.

 

John, I really enjoy your interactions around here, and I have a lot of respect for what you do. So I hope you won't think I'm just trying to be mean when I say that you've got to get your head out of the sand and quit lying to yourself. You're looking for false security, here, where there is none.

 

Lying to myself about what??? That I could pick a line in a curve as well, sitting up straight, as you kissing the mirror???

 

 

You could both take the same line at the same speed, and you would have more lean angle than David. More lean angle means less traction and less margin.

 

You write this off as "my style vs. your style" instead of looking at it objectively and seeing that "your style" isn't ideal.

 

Here's how I see it....

 

We're saying that good body position (i.e. "Kiss the mirrors") will: reduce lean angle for a given speed and line.

The result of that is: More traction and more margin.

 

The way I see it, you can dispute those points, you can bring up disadvantages to the 'kiss the mirrors' style, you can dispute that sitting upright increases lean angle (or that increased lean angle means less traction and less margin), or you can bring up advantages to sitting upright that might outweigh the disadvantages.

 

 

An example..."hanging off" like the racers do would reduce lean angle even more for a given speed and line. That means even more traction and even more margin.

 

But...there are drawbacks:

1. Learning to do it without putting pressure on the bars takes some time.

2. Learning to be able to move from side to side quickly...if you had to swerve, for example, without upsetting things takes quite a bit of time and is difficult to execute...especially under "emergency" conditions.

 

IMO, those drawbacks outweigh the advantages...but that's just my opinion.

 

You're not disputing any of the advantages of the "Kiss the mirrors" body position. You're not bringing up any disadvantages to the "Kiss the mirrors" body position. You're not denying any of the disadvantages of the "sit up straight" body position and you're not bringing up any of its advantages.

 

You're just saying that "This is how I do it and I'm not dead, so it must be perfectly OK." Surely you see where that falls short??

[FlyingFinn]

 

--

Mikko

[David]

You're lying to yourself that somehow technique is different than riding style, as if that eliminates the distinction. You're also lying to yourself that it doesn't matter. Well, in most cases it doesn't matter, but when you get near the edge of traction, it's that last little bit that might keep you from crashing.

 

What you are espousing and what the other side is advocating are NOT both correct. They might be both be WRONG, but they are not correct.

 

Like I said, for normal patrol work, sitting upright (without your upper body moving to the inside) is going to be more comfortable, less fatiguing, and plenty safe enough. But when you're chasing someone and nearing the limits of the motorcycle, you'll run out of skill before you run out of pursuit.

 

What we need to do is a test. Let's put both of us on exactly the same bikes and see if you can catch me if I'm bolt upright, and then see if you can catch me in a more performance setting.

 

I don't want to piss you off at all, so please don't take this personally. You're obviously a very skilled rider, but your understanding of the technique is inversely proportional to your speed. In other words, you're applying slow-speed technique to higher-speed situations, and that might get you hurt. We don't want that!

[Twisties]

I'm going to suggest that at this point we drop it. The discussion is no longer bringing up new points of riding techniques, or even new points of persuasion, but is heading towards argument. Time to let it go and move on.

 

Thanks,

 

Jan