Further to "Splinal Tap'

[Dousta]

Hi all,

My name is Doug, the buddy of Zepher (Dennis) at your recent Unrally. A big thankyou to you all for the amazing hospitality and help in making Zepher's situation bearable.

My question is directed to anyone but specifically Jaimie who has the same model and year of bike that I drive but with over 140,000 miles on it. Very impressive. Of course I am concerned with the potential problem that Zepher had. Upon arriving home I went to my mechanic who stated that BMW has had this problem since 1996 when they stopped having the input shaft spline lube as a regular maintenance procedure and he has had to repair many bikes with this issue over the years. He states every 20,000 miles this procedure should be done. Jaimie, or anyone, what is your mileage time frame for this maintenance procedure. I have 42,000 miles on my bike and it hasn't been done yet so am getting apprehensive.

regards,

Doug

[KMG_365]

Hi and welcome, Doug!

 

First, it appears from all the empirical evidence here that one either has: "a good one", "a fair one" or "a really lousy one" and the only way to know, short of taking it apart and measuring shaft run-out very carefully, is by riding it, keeping an eye on how it shifts and pulling the alternator and checking the circumferential play on the clutch disc as we did on Dennis' bike. He was already hearing noises enough to make him get off the bike and start looking for problems at the back of the bike and sure enough his clutch play was at the wear limit of about 1.25" (~3cm). Dennis obviously got "a really lousy one". There may be other variables that affect spline life like how you ride, what weather/environmental situations you ride through, original amount and type of lube applied at the factory, etc.

 

True, I've got 142,000 miles on my original clutch and splines, but Southern California is a very different place from B.C. and every bike is different. Still, after reading all this spline failure I was worried about the same thing as you. That was what motivated me to figure out the splinal tap approach in the first place--I'm really NOT interested in getting to know my bike THAT well unless I'm forced to! I had about 3/8" (~1cm) slop when I first checked mine out at almost 100K miles and had noticed a bit of stiff down shifting down into first gear (while moving). The splinal tap helped that symptom and I've done it again since (at around 120K miles) with similar results, but otherwise the splines had NO special attention paid to them for the first 100,000 miles. So my splines were obviously NOT in the same situation/alignment as Dennis' bike.

 

Others who have had really bad run-out/alignment problems have replaced their trannies input shafts and lubed everything fully (obviously very easy to do when you're doing the full stink-bugging of the rear sub frame and pulling the whole thing apart to pull the tranny--a six-hour job if you know what you're doing) and yet the splines would still strip again in less than 30K miles. We checked Bob's ("flyboy") 1150GS splines with 50K miles on them (never lubed to my knowledge) and he had brand-new slop of less than 1/4" (~.5cm)!! He also said he noticed improved shifting after the "Splinal Tap" (the access was even easier on the GS) and the better shifting plus the peace of mind was worth the 20 minutes of time.

 

So to sum up: the mere fact that you've got 42K miles on your bike means that you don't have "a really lousy one" or you would have already replaced your tranny input shaft and clutch disk. That said, it certainly is worth the time to pull the alternator and check your slop. If you have less than 1/2" of slop at the outside circumference of the clutch disk and you don't notice any shifting problems/stiffness I would just button it back up and not worry about it as you've obviously got "a good one" and you'll need a new clutch disk anyway before the splines will go. If you've got much more slop than that, you've probably got "a fair one" and a regular spline lube (or splinal tap) will help to prolong the life and decrease wear, but NO REASONABLE AMOUNT of lube will save "a really lousy one" from premature self destruction. Sure, you could stink-bug the bike and pull the tranny every 6K miles to try to keep from replacing $2K worth of parts, but jeeeez!

 

I posted to Zephyr's post in the UnRally Forum with some suggestions to search under if you want all the history and background information to show your mechanic. There are some really complete breakdowns with pictures, etc. I'm sure that now Dennis can help you to check yours out.

 

Hey, have we had any Great White North Tech Daze yet??

[zephyr]

Jamie, just to be clear, I believe in your above reply that when you say "alternator", you actually mean "starter", eh?

[KMG_365]

Jamie, just to be clear, I believe in your above reply that when you say "alternator", you actually mean "starter", eh?

Dang it!!! I do that ALL THE TIME!!! Yes, it is the starter, just as we did for yours. It must be my own alternator belt fixation causing all the slips!

 

 

Double DANG IT!! The first time I typed the above I TYPED ALTERNATOR AGAIN!! Aaaaagghhhh! I'm losing what's left of my poor brain!

[Dousta]

Hi Jaimie,

Thankyou for your reply. You have given me some piece of mind as my bike has displayed no symptoms of this problem. I will take your advice to my mechanic as it may be helpful to him also.

Again, we we were so impressed with all of your help and generosity and hopefully will meet up again.

Regards,

Doug

[Steve W.]

Upon arriving home I went to my mechanic who stated that BMW has had this problem since 1996 when they stopped having the input shaft spline lube as a regular maintenance procedure and he has had to repair many bikes with this issue over the years. Doug

 

One of my old riding buddies bought a brand new 1981 R100T (in 1981). Clutch and splined shaft went at 6k mi. Next one at 12k, etc. At 24k BMW replaced the engine case and tranny case, dealer swapped all the good parts to the new cases. That Fixed it.

This is not a NEW Problem for the brand. I've heard of other Airheads with the same problem. One would think by now they would have figured it out. Maybe BM could buy a Goldwing and take a look at how they did it.

Cheers

Steve

[smiller]

This is not a NEW Problem for the brand. I've heard of other Airheads with the same problem. One would think by now they would have figured it out. Maybe BM could buy a Goldwing and take a look at how they did it.

Maybe they were too busy figuring out how to fix the final drive once and for all. :smirk:

[Dousta]

Yes, I do realize that this is not a new problem. I had a couple of K100'rds in the 80's that had the spline problems. Back then it was standard procedure to have them lubed every couple of years at least. When I bought my R1150RT I was told that they were now basically maintenance free. So much for listening to a dealer.

[Dousta]

Please remember that the Japanese brands with shaft drive are a wet clutch system so for better or worse, the BMW cannot be compared with them.

[KMG_365]

Yes, I do realize that this is not a new problem. I had a couple of K100'rds in the 80's that had the spline problems. Back then it was standard procedure to have them lubed every couple of years at least. When I bought my R1150RT I was told that they were now basically maintenance free. So much for listening to a dealer.

Other splines (drive shaft, etc.) on earlier bikes did need regular lubing but they supposedly changed the metals on later models and that helped, but a drive shaft spline is much more "floating" and thus able to self-center. The clutch/input shaft splines seem to me to be in a fixed relationship and any run-out problems are going to cause premature wear. I've got 140K miles on my ORIGINAL CLUTCH DISK which is practically unheard of and that's only because we do a lot of touring and I don't punish/ride the clutch much.

 

The problem is it is a total PITA to get to the damn clutch splines to lube them so it's not something the average owner is going to want to either do themselves or pay the labor for every 20K miles.

 

So in effect, other than basic ongoing oil changes and valve adjustments, my RT has indeed been "basically maintenance free"--no driveshaft lubes, no full spline lube, one set of front wheel bearings one rear final drive (original bearing gave up at 86K miles and cratered the FD), no top end work, still not burning oil, still gets up and goes. Same alternator (though I just found out that my pulley is eccentric which explains the numerous belt failures), same starter (one squealing starter service at ~80K miles), same complicated EVO brakes, I didn't even have to adjust the valves from about 50K miles to over 100K miles (and since then I've only been loosening up the top two exhaust valves a smidge every 12K miles or so), hell I just replaced the O2 sensor that lasted about 130K miles (twice it's expected life span).

 

I'm not sure how much more one would/should expect from a motorcycle.

[Dousta]

Nice to hear a positive story after all the bad luck ones

[Steve W.]

Please remember that the Japanese brands with shaft drive are a wet clutch system so for better or worse, the BMW cannot be compared with them.

 

You got that last part right!

 

Cheers

Steve

[Ken H.]

Hey, have we had any Great White North Tech Daze yet??

Interesting you should ask...

 

I asked a few of the Canadians during the UN if, in that we will soon be there too, there ever has been or ever an interest in holding a SK/AB/BC Tech Day? The general answer I got was, 'no need.' That Canadian self-independence showing through I guess!

[Urban Surfer]

Hey, have we had any Great White North Tech Daze yet??

Interesting you should ask...

 

I asked a few of the Canadians during the UN if, in that we will soon be there too, there ever has been or ever an interest in holding a SK/AB/BC Tech Day? The general answer I got was, 'no need.' That Canadian self-independence showing through I guess!

 

We did have a mini teck day here in April. We got some of the work accomplished.

[doc47]

Suggestion for spline lube:

Wurth SIG (Super Impact Grease) or this sounds like a possibility:

 

Paragon Products, Inc

5602 Old Brownsville Rd

Corpus Christi, TX 78417

 

sales 1-800-200-9366

tech 1-361-289-8834

fax 1-361-289-5682

 

Wurth - HS2000

 

Our Price: $19.65

 

 

Product Code: WURTH_HS2000

Qty:

 

Description

 

Würth HHS 2000 is a high pressure, resistant adhesive lubricant. It lubricates parts exposed to strong pressure and impacts on vibration. Würth HHS 2000 is silicone free, highly polymeric and penetrates quickly and adheres completely. Würth HHS 2000 is fluid, non-sticking with an excellent creeping capacity which penetrates into inaccessible places.

 

The solvent in Würth HHS 2000 evaporates as it is sprayed resulting in an immediate strong adherence of the lubricant onto metal. It is ideally suited in places where mineral oil and other lubricants do not achieve long term effectiveness or where parts must be dismantled when applying lubrication paste. It also has long lasting effectiveness in places which cannot be lubricated in short term intervals. Sprays on as a liquid and then dries to a clear semisolid which will not dry out. Würth HHS 2000 is water resistant, will not attract dust and will not damage rubber.

 

16 oz