travelingman Posted July 8, 2008 Posted July 8, 2008 Have any of you guys had any issues with Ethanol . Here in East Tenn seems all stations have a 10% ratio . Since most cars get worse Milage on it I am wondering about adding a octane Booster . But i have wondered if that would efect the catholetic converter ?
ShovelStrokeEd Posted July 8, 2008 Posted July 8, 2008 Ethanol is an octane booster so you don't have to worry about that. It does contain less energy per unit volume than does gasoline so you might experience about a 4% reduction in power, depending on engine configuration, and that might equate to some loss of economy. Then again, it might not have any effect if your engine has a knock sensor and you have been running low grade fuel. Too complex an issue to really make a prediction as driving habits, engine configuration, roads driven, tire pressures and about a jillion other things can effect both short and long term economy. A catalytic converter won't care much and I'm pretty sure they are all a Protestant invention anyway.
Wheels Rollin' Posted July 8, 2008 Posted July 8, 2008 Have any of you guys had any issues with Ethanol? Here in Iowa, travelingman, ethanol is... well... something of a religion... It's been an available fuel option here for quite some time... I run it in all of my vehicles, partly because of the octane boost and because it has, at least until recently, enjoyed a pricing advantage at the pump... And another reason equally as important? We do like to suppport the local economy as much as possible <>... Performance challenges? I haven't noted any... Mileage experience? It's completely unscientific, but a couple of years ago, I ran back-to-back tanks of ethanol and non-ethanol fuel through my 2000 Volkswagen New Beetle during a cross country, Interstate highway miles, trip... The difference in mileage between the two tanks was minor -- 34.3 ethanol versus 34.2 non-ethanol... I've had absolutely no maintenace issues, as some have reported elsewhere... Now, as for my '04 RT? I'll switch back and forth... Sometimes you can't get premium... Sometimes you can't get ethanol... I'm a modest rider with little mechanical ability or inclination (how's that for being brutally honest? <>) and I can say I notice no performance or mileage difference in the type of riding I do... Your experience, of course, may be different... That's my view... ~ Bill
ArthurKnowles Posted July 8, 2008 Posted July 8, 2008 I don't have a choice, all fuel in CA is 10% ethanol. From what I can tell, base don what I have read of other's gas milage on their motorcycles, ethanol does cut down the MPG. That's the bad side. On the good side it does help with emmisions. Other than that, it works fine in all my vehicles (2 & 4 wheel).
Joe Frickin' Friday Posted July 8, 2008 Posted July 8, 2008 Have any of you guys had any issues with Ethanol . Here in East Tenn seems all stations have a 10% ratio . Since most cars get worse Milage on it I am wondering about adding a octane Booster . But i have wondered if that would efect the catholetic converter ? If you're using an E10 fuel with the same octane you would choose in a pure-gasoline fuel, then octane booster won't make a difference. The reduced fuel economy of E10 (and other ethanol blends) is due to the reduced energy content of the fuel. If you're experiencing heavy knock/pinging, your easiest option is to simply select a higher octane fuel, no matter if it's E10 or straight gasoline. If you'd prefer to use an octane booster, the container will likely tell you in no uncertain terms whether or not it's safe for catalytic converters; you'll simply need to go to the auto parts store and see what's available. Again, this would only be if you're having knock/ping problems.
travelingman Posted July 9, 2008 Author Posted July 9, 2008 when you say theres a octain boost are saying its higher than gas without it ? If so dozen't octain an BTU's go hand in hand to produce more energy which should equate to beter mpg . I just did my first fillup today with Shell. I will let you know I had 248 miles on that tank full . I did not notice any pinging not really sure on performance i've only got 30 miles on the tank .
Mr. Frank Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Gas with 10% ethanol drops my mileage by about 2mpg. That's a pretty common experience. That works out to about 10-15 cents a gallon more than you think you are paying. If you are not a farmer, it does not make economic sense. An exception is when mid grade with ethanol is being sold for less than regular and you need midgrade.
TestPilot Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 travelingman - Octane measures resistance to detonation. High octane fuel allows you to use higher compression ratios and turbo- or supercharging. High octane does not mean high energy content. That said, you could recoup the mileage losses by building an engine designed specifically to run on ethanol. That's what the IRL does. However, since our bikes are mapped for gasoline, we're stuck with the losses.
Joe Frickin' Friday Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Octane measures resistance to detonation. High octane fuel allows you to use higher compression ratios and turbo- or supercharging. High octane does not mean high energy content. To cite an extreme example, pure ethanol is 98 octane, but on a per-gallon basis has about 66% of the energy of gasoline. That said, you could recoup the mileage losses by building an engine designed specifically to run on ethanol. You can use higher compression and more advanced spark timing to improve efficiency, but that'll only get you so far. An engine optimized for ethanol will be more efficient on an energy-out-per energy-in basis than an engine optimized for for gasoline, but because of the far lower energy content of ethanol, I don't believe you can achieve a higher miles-per-gallon.
ShovelStrokeEd Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Just to further on Mitch's observations. Best power from a gasoline engine will come at an fuel/air ratio of about 12.5:1. Ethanol requires about 6.5:1 to produce the same power. I think, btw, pure ethanol has an octane rating of 116, not 98 although difference might be because of units used. The 98, I think would be correct if it refers to 98% iso-octane, 2% heptane.
Joe Frickin' Friday Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Just to further on Mitch's observations. Best power from a gasoline engine will come at an fuel/air ratio of about 12.5:1. Ethanol requires about 6.5:1 to produce the same power. I think, btw, pure ethanol has an octane rating of 116, not 98 although difference might be because of units used. The 98, I think would be correct if it refers to 98% iso-octane, 2% heptane. Heywood indicates an RON of 107, and an MON of 89; that's how I arrived at (R+M)/2 of 98. I suppose the numbers will vary a bit depending on the source cited, but I'll wager your 116 is an RON value.
Wooster Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 ... A catalytic converter won't care much and I'm pretty sure they are all a Protestant invention anyway. Good one. Wooster, a Catholetic convert
breyfogle Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 travelingman - That's what the IRL does. And they get, what, 1.5 to 2.5 MPG ???
ShovelStrokeEd Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 Yup, a RON number and I have seen that vary all over the place, depending on the source. High, with a little research, of 139 and a low of 107. I also saw one where the RON of 10% ethanol gasoline blend only came out as an RON of 93. Tells me, for the most part, it is all a matter of who is presenting the data and, to some extent, their agenda. Energy content seems to be a bit more consistent with most rating gasoline at around 34 MJ/l and ethanol at around 25.
travelingman Posted July 9, 2008 Author Posted July 9, 2008 I,m sure learning alot from this post .Wheels since you are up there in the land of ethanol have you ever heard or read anything automobile wize about changes that can be made to the fuel system on non flex fuel vehicles,to improve performace an or economy ? I thought I read something to that effect but can not recall where . I just wish these gas stations would give us a choice . Don,t get me wroung I am all for the farmers haveing crops in high demand . But with the impact on the feed an food market an the drop in lower energy causeing less mpg it looks to me like it just comes full circle .
mikeR1100R Posted July 9, 2008 Posted July 9, 2008 In Connecticut, when 10% ethanol was added to gasoline, I noticed an immediate drop in gas mileage by about 8%.
Wheels Rollin' Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 Wheels since you are up there in the land of ethanol have you ever heard or read anything automobile wize about changes that can be made to the fuel system on non flex fuel vehicles,to improve performace an or economy? I have no personal knowledge of any such 'tweaks' or more formal modifications, travelingman, though I suspect there are an ample number of web sites addressing that question and others you could check out... E85 and flex-fuel seem to be the rage at the moment -- that, and bio-diesel... Sorry I couldn't be more helpful... ~ Bill
ShovelStrokeEd Posted July 11, 2008 Posted July 11, 2008 In Connecticut, when 10% ethanol was added to gasoline, I noticed an immediate drop in gas mileage by about 8%. It shouldn't be that high. Some other factor at work. The overall result of mixing 10% ethanol with gasoline is only about a 4% drop in energy content of the fuel. Tracking fuel consumption is hard. Inconsistent fill method can skew results and it not unusual to encounter spikes on even long term data. I wouldn't get upset on even a 4 tank anomaly. I have seen some truly strange stuff. One data point being that I always get better mileage on BP silver obtained in middle Georgia than any other gas I put in my bike. This has been going on since the mid 80's when my '84 300 ZX got an astonishing range on a tank of gas. Never have been able to figure it out.
4wheeldog Posted July 12, 2008 Posted July 12, 2008 In Connecticut, when 10% ethanol was added to gasoline, I noticed an immediate drop in gas mileage by about 8%. It shouldn't be that high. Some other factor at work. The overall result of mixing 10% ethanol with gasoline is only about a 4% drop in energy content of the fuel. Tracking fuel consumption is hard. Inconsistent fill method can skew results and it not unusual to encounter spikes on even long term data. I wouldn't get upset on even a 4 tank anomaly. I have seen some truly strange stuff. One data point being that I always get better mileage on BP silver obtained in middle Georgia than any other gas I put in my bike. This has been going on since the mid 80's when my '84 300 ZX got an astonishing range on a tank of gas. Never have been able to figure it out. One thing that throws mileage calculations into the weeds is wind. A headwind or a tailwind can give wildly different results. Pretty easy to have variations of more than 10% from the average because of wind. Of course, headwinds are more prevelent than tailwinds......It can actually be proven scientifically.
ShovelStrokeEd Posted July 12, 2008 Posted July 12, 2008 True dat, especially in New Mexico. I've ridden there traveling east, south, west and then back north and been in head winds all day. Also went from sunny and hot to a hail storm, torrential rain, cold and then back to hot, all within 50 miles.
Mr. Frank Posted July 12, 2008 Posted July 12, 2008 Yep. About 4% is what I experienced on a recent 4600 mile trip into and out of ethanol country. If it's not more than 16 cents a gallon cheaper, it's no bargain.
GregB Posted July 12, 2008 Posted July 12, 2008 Of course, headwinds are more prevelent than tailwinds......It can actually be proven scientifically. Just about any serious cyclist will tell you that any wind not coming mostly from behind FEELS like a headwind.
Traveler Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 30% ethanol in the fuel in I got in the Yukon in '04. Terrible milage. Anyone else have the same? I went from 42mpg to 31mpg.
stubblejumper Posted July 14, 2008 Posted July 14, 2008 I will not pay the same money for less fuel mileage,so I avoid fuels containing ethanol whenever possible.
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