Laney Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 I wasn't given any information about the cause(s) of Buddy's troubles, since they're apparently not certain about a few things yet. But I was asking questions -- my "did you check this and are you going to check that" list, and I got to the question about checking the rings. The Service Manager told me they're taking the engine apart, one piece at a time, checking the torque values as they go, photographing everything, and taking copious notes. OK, so he really didn't use the word copious... But even better than all that is that it's coming apart down to the crank. No more mysteries deep within the heart of my bike. I'm ALMOST ready to celebrate, but I wanna see all the pictures first -- Before AND After! Link to comment
ericfoerster Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 More prayers from our house tonight I am sure pulling for you. Link to comment
John Moylan Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 ....The Service Manager told me they're taking the engine apart......checking the torque values as they go, Laney Just late seeing your tale of woe, but the above comment caught my eye. I'd very interested if the above proves to be of significance in their explanation to you of whatever the problem is. Because, unless there's been an engineering miracle since I finished work yesterday, there's no such way to verify applied torques to a fastener AFTER they're done up. It doesn't exist..........well unless you're in the R & D dept, but you get my drift..........a guy wielding a (even new, calibrated) torque wrench can produce nothing you could stand over. Correction: nothing THEY can stand over. My 0.02......as they say. Link to comment
Dennis Andress Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 I'd very interested if the above proves to be of significance in their explanation to you of whatever the problem is. Because, unless there's been an engineering miracle since I finished work yesterday, there's no such way to verify applied torques to a fastener AFTER they're done up. Yea, I was wondering about that too.... Link to comment
Laney Posted June 16, 2005 Author Share Posted June 16, 2005 I had a similar thought, but wondered if it wouldn't be possible to set a torque wrench below the spec by some percentage, and verify whether the torque was signifiicantly less than it should've been? The issue came up when I asked if they looked at whether the heads were torqued down as they should've been. I didn't ask, and they didn't say specifically that's how they were accomplishing that check, but I didn't think there was any other way to get an idea if torque values were way out of range. I don't so much think all the documentation is for my benefit, I think the question they're trying to resolve is whether this failure is a "factory defect" kind of thing, or whether there's something a BMW tech did during service or repair that caused things to go wrong. To me that means the details are likely to be recorded most carefully. Link to comment
tallman Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Om Mani Padme Hum Here's to a positive outcome. Link to comment
ShovelStrokeEd Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 'twould be nice if they could check that way but, it just ain't so. Breakaway forces for disassembly are so far above nominal torque values as to render any measurements taken in that fashion useless. Now, my bet is still on scored cylinder walls, piston skirts, piston rings as a result of improperly scraped carbon from the piston tops getting down there after the initial decoking job was done. The way the engine is constructed, improperly torqued cylinder heads will not greatly effect the roundness of the cylinder bores. These need to be measured BTW. Both taper and out of round as they can have a big impact on the problem as it presents. Ditto the pistons and the ring end gaps in the bores. It is there or in the valve guides that the answer to this problem will be found. Just some more info so you won't sound so much like a gurl. Link to comment
Dennis Andress Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Torque wrenches are only acurate if the fastener is moving when the wrench clicks. Aside from that, I can't think of any way a mis-torqued fastener could cause oil consumption. Sure, uneven torque could warp the head but that usually causes water to leak into the cylinders. Link to comment
John Moylan Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Ed/Dennis - you got it in one. Nice idea Laney, but it doesn't work out that way. No, the problem is not this........it's something more fundamental. Simple, even. ...this will be very interesting to watch............ Link to comment
tallman Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Ed, could they have meant that they were visually, then manually (check with fingers) checking to see if there were any loose fittings? Ot did they just assume Laney didn't know how to torque Buddy's nuts? Link to comment
ShovelStrokeEd Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Actually, if Laney were a bit better/more agressive about twisting nuts, this whole thing might have resolved sooner. As to the loose thing, yeah, maybe but, nothing left loose could possible cause this kind of smoking. I can see camshafts mistimed causing bent valves causing failure of the guides, remote, but possible. I can see loose cylinder head nuts causing leaking head gaskets but, that would have shown on plugs a long time ago. Steam from Glycol in a combustion chamber leaves a very distinct color on the plugs. Link to comment
tallman Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Actually, if Laney were a bit better/more agressive about twisting nuts, this whole thing might have resolved sooner. :eek ROFLMAO That may be the bottom line. Sure hope it's resolved. Link to comment
Calvin (no socks) Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 John, yes and no. I've taken apart many engines, and when disassembling an overheated engine, the head bolts on the exhaust side are always loose. Overheating the bolts/cylinders/manifolds etc. leaves all sorts of indicators. From melted plastic items, discolored metal, loose bolts, discolored gaskets, etc....Maybe they will see what the others missed...or rather caused... Link to comment
Dennis Andress Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 John, yes and no. I've taken apart many engines, and when disassembling an overheated engine, the head bolts on the exhaust side are always loose. Overheating the bolts/cylinders/manifolds etc. leaves all sorts of indicators. From melted plastic items, discolored metal, loose bolts, discolored gaskets, etc....Maybe they will see what the others missed...or rather caused... Have you seen oil boiled enough to turn to jelly? Link to comment
Laney Posted June 16, 2005 Author Share Posted June 16, 2005 Breakaway forces for disassembly are so far above nominal torque values as to render any measurements taken in that fashion useless.... ...Just some more info so you won't sound so much like a gurl. I wasn't thinking breakaway force. Even I know that doesn't show reality. I was thinking along the lines of -- if a nut's supposed to be torqued to X, you set the wrench lower than X by Y percent. If it clicks, then it wasn't tight enough. Seeing as how all the head related stuff was apart a very few months ago, it shouldn't have had much time to work loose, right? Link to comment
ShovelStrokeEd Posted June 16, 2005 Share Posted June 16, 2005 Close, but still no cigar. Proper torque settings, when using a click type wrench, are obtained by smoothly and continuously applying torque to the head of the fastner until the wrench clicks. Actuall, that applies to continuous measuring wrenches like deflecting beam and dial types. Its actually wrong to go back and see if the wrench clicks on a stopped bolt. It will click every time. If set lower, it will just click earlier. There is that break away force at work again once the fastner stops. That is why there are ususally increments required for higher torque values. Now, if you were to set it some slight figure higher, and the bolt turned appreciably before it clicked, you might learn something. Setting it lower won't work. Spec torque plus break away force will always be higher even if the fastener was torqued properly to begin with. Link to comment
rdfrantz Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 OK, guys. Now, I'll put my Engine Builder hat on. Listen up. Measuring Existing Fastener Torque: 1. Apply dripped candle wax to the fastener and its fastened piece and allow to harden. This marks the fastener position. Even "magic marker" lines are OK for this if you are only interested in approximations in the 10% range. 2. Loosen the fastener 1/2 turn, breaking the wax seal. 3. Using a Dial-type torque wrench, bring the fastener into its original alignment, vis-a-vis the wax, and note the torque value required to reach that point. Now you know. Some fasteners are torqued, then turned in degrees. The same method is effective with these as well. Best wishes. Link to comment
Rich_O Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 I'm glad to hear that they are taking some positive steps. Obviously the issue now is between the dealer and BMW (who's going to pay?) and I'm laughing my arse off. In typical fashion, the dealer is going down the path of spending 5x what it would have cost to give you a short block just to cover their a$$ and try to make somebody else pay. Link to comment
David_R Posted June 17, 2005 Share Posted June 17, 2005 RE: checking existing fastener torque. Dick's suggested way would be fine. No matter what, you're only going to approximate original settings since the friction surface of the fasteners change over time. Rechecking fastener torque is done everyday in vehicle manufacturing and industrial quality control applications. Traditionally, the best method has been to measure the lowest point at which retightening occurs. This value has been proven to be the closest value to the applied torque value (although a distinct minimum does not exist in some fasteners). New digital torque checking wrenches use a different method that is more accurate. /Dave Link to comment
TexRanger Posted June 30, 2005 Share Posted June 30, 2005 Any updates Laney? I hope they've got your bike back together and you've just been too busy riding smoke-free to post! Link to comment
bmwmick Posted July 8, 2005 Share Posted July 8, 2005 Laney, Any new progress to report? Mick Link to comment
rdfrantz Posted July 9, 2005 Share Posted July 9, 2005 Let's see here. Several posts asking "How's it Going?" Laney doesn't answer. Laney reads the board regularly. Seems to me she likes to chat too. Hmmmm. Anybody want to play Detective? Well. What's known? Uhhhh. First, the bike was running like crap in... well even way up in Torrey even. Bike goes in for a "major level" service. Get's its valves adjusted. Bike still runs like crap. BMW announces a "recall" to replace computer modules, ostensibly because of bad fuel metering. Bike's engine "pops" and don't run no mo'. Bike gets new "computer". Cylinder head gets "rebuilt". Engine gets "de-carboned". Bike runs, uh... Ok. But... It begins smoking. Smokes more. Smokes more than that. Smokes a WHOLE LOT more than that. Bike don't run no mo'. Independently, I learned, this is in the public domain, by the way, nothing "heroic" was found about the cylinder head. So... bet they didn't replace THAT part of the bike, huh? Now, Laney's quiet. Hmmmm. Ya know. I once heard of a guy who had real bad, I mean real, real bad troubles with his BMW bike. Negotiated with 'em. His problem went away. He said he was "restricted from talking about it." Hmmmm. Best wishes. Link to comment
bmwmick Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 Now, Laney's quiet. Hmmmm. Ya know. I once heard of a guy who had real bad, I mean real, real bad troubles with his BMW bike. Negotiated with 'em. His problem went away. He said he was "restricted from talking about it." Hmmmm. Best wishes. Thanks Dick!! Sounds a bit like a recent K1200S story I heard. Mick Link to comment
James Clark Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 Now, Laney's quiet. Hmmmm. There's an old soviet proverb: "Out of sight - out of mind." Do you think german agents have spirited her away to an asylum? Link to comment
hANNAbONE Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 Do you think german agents have spirited her away to an asylum? gOOD lORD...i hope not..!! Link to comment
ShovelStrokeEd Posted July 10, 2005 Share Posted July 10, 2005 She'd be running the place in a month! Picture Socko in a nures's costume. The mind boggles. Link to comment
Kathy R Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 (beware run on sentence) When you are the little guy and the big guy controls everything you have to play by the big guys rules if you want anything to get done close to your satisfaction by the big guy. While you are waiting for the big guy to do something, you are hamstrung. God help the big guy if he doesn't produce/come through/make good. Link to comment
rdfrantz Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 Do you think german agents have spirited her away to an asylum? gOOD lORD...i hope not..!! Well, Doctor, it all started with the Sock Monkey. You see, he.... Link to comment
hANNAbONE Posted July 11, 2005 Share Posted July 11, 2005 gOOD lORD...i hope not..!! Well, Doctor, it all started with the Sock Monkey. You see, he.... i fIGGERED that blinkin' SockMonkey would be at the bottom of this... Link to comment
Laney Posted July 12, 2005 Author Share Posted July 12, 2005 There's an old soviet proverb: "Out of sight - out of mind." Do you think german agents have spirited her away to an asylum? I am NOT out of my mind. But I must say that this whole experience comes as close as I want to get to that! Why is that Sock Monkey wearing my boots??? Now if the nice Doctors here would just let me make one phone call. Just one... Link to comment
Fasterpill Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Sounds to me as though you guys are just blowing smoke... Link to comment
Paul Mihalka Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Sounds to me as though you guys are just blowing smoke... I hope all the blowing smoke is done by now Link to comment
Richard Utas Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Now, Laney's quiet. Hmmmm. Ya know. I once heard of a guy who had real bad, I mean real, real bad troubles with his BMW bike. Negotiated with 'em. His problem went away. He said he was "restricted from talking about it." Hmmmm. Sounds like pillow talk to me.... Link to comment
Richard Utas Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 They can't still have it after a month, can they? Does she have the bike back yet? Once she does will we hear the full story? We all want to know and we might need to know just in case the same woes befall one of us. We all await the good news and the full story of Smokey Joe the K bike. In addition those of us in Southern California need to know which dealerships can be trusted to do the right thing. Link to comment
ESokoloff Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 We all await the good news No news is GOOD NEWS Link to comment
Kathy R Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 ....restricted ...... dum de dum de dum dummmmm I'm waiting to hear that they've fixed it to her satisfaction and attempted to mend the impression given that they would stick a rider, let alone an avid and accomplished rider, with this problem. You learn alot about a business/company in situations like this. We'll have to wait some more, it seems? Link to comment
steveknapp Posted July 13, 2005 Share Posted July 13, 2005 Hmm...so Laney can never post a ride tale on her K-RS ever again? And if not, then where are the picts of said bike running without smoke? Link to comment
tallman Posted July 14, 2005 Share Posted July 14, 2005 Well if Laney can't post... surely somone else can post a ride tale that she and Buddy just happen to be in. Link to comment
Laney Posted July 14, 2005 Author Share Posted July 14, 2005 They can't still have it after a month, can they? I have been riding Seymour since a few days before this thread first started. I expect I'll continue riding my Honda for about another week. Link to comment
ShovelStrokeEd Posted July 14, 2005 Share Posted July 14, 2005 To move things in a better general direction and to pose a less awkward question, Laney, what do you think of the VFR now that you have lived with it a while. I am in the process of ressurecting my '00 and plan on keeping it as my "sporty" bike with its main mission being under 1000 mile one way trips with twisties at the end. Link to comment
ESokoloff Posted July 14, 2005 Share Posted July 14, 2005 what do you think of the VFR now that you have lived with it a while. I think this question also needs to be asked after she starts to ride the RS again. Link to comment
4wheeldog Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 Just giving this a bump, maybe someone can tell us if the bike got fixed, or what happened. Link to comment
Paul Mihalka Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 Just giving this a bump, maybe someone can tell us if the bike got fixed, or what happened. I'm sure when the bike is fixed and Laney has it back, she will tell us... Link to comment
Bert Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Just giving this a bump, maybe someone can tell us if the bike got fixed, or what happened. I'm sure when the bike is fixed and Laney has it back, she will tell us... Perhaps not. They've had it for two months now. How long does it take to repair/replace an engine? Link to comment
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