Ridesmart vs the Criss-cross

[Whip]

Since I've been playin in the dirt a bit I've had to get used to cross controlin the bike more(weighting the outside peg and keeping your body perpendicular to the ground.). I've found that my slow speed turns are much better now on all my bikes....... I can do a u-turn in less space on the FJR than before.

 

My question for the collective is??????

 

At what speed/condition should ya switch back to Ridesmart? In parking lots and slow speed corners especially in slippery or wet conditions it seems to me the criss-cross is a better way to ride, but what about at 25 mph making a 90 degree turn on a surface your not sure of......say it's dark and your lights are not pointing at the sand/gravel in the corner...should ya switch back to the criss-cross. Will it add traction like in the dirt????

 

 

...hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm??????????????

 

 

Whip

[Woodie]

I've always thought of it as a combination of turn radius and speed. I *think* radius has more to do with it.

 

When the turning radius shrinks beyond a certain size, you must cross-control the bike, in order to get it over far enough to make the turn, while not falling over.

However, it's also a speed/traction thing.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Since I've been playin in the dirt a bit I've had to get used to cross controlin the bike more(weighting the outside peg and keeping your body perpendicular to the ground.). I've found that my slow speed turns are much better now on all my bikes....... I can do a u-turn in less space on the FJR than before.

 

My question for the collective is??????

 

At what speed/condition should ya switch back to Ridesmart?

 

The tradeoff is between turning radius and cornering clearance/suspension alignment. Keeping the bike vertical and hanging your body to the inside of the turn optimizes the latter, while laying the bike over and leaning your body to the outside minimizes the former. Leaning to the inside is appropriate where suspension behavior (i.e. traction) and cornering clearance are critical, i.e. out on the road; leaning to the outside is be appropriate when you want to minimize turning radius and are less concerned about suspension (traction) and cornering clearnace, for example in a low-speed parking lot setting where your handebars are approaching the steering limit and you want to turn within an even tighter radius.

 

From what I've seen, leaning to the outside on a dirt bike also positions your body to allow your inside foot to dab the ground. This might work well on a 160-pound dirt bike coming out of a slow turn, but as Shawn will attest, it is acutely dangerous on a 600-pound touring bike travelling at speed.

 

...

but what about at 25 mph making a 90 degree turn on a surface your not sure of......say it's dark and your lights are not pointing at the sand/gravel in the corner...

 

Leaning to the outside will not help matters here; if you can't see where you're riding, your best bet is to slow down.

[Whip]

"Leaning to the inside is appropriate where suspension behavior (i.e. traction) and cornering clearance are critical, "

 

Traction????????

 

Not true in the dirt....

 

What's the difference????

 

Speed??????

 

 

BTW...I don't put my feet down even in the dirt....the KTM is still way too heavy....and last night there was no time to slow anymore by the time I smelled the diesel on the ground and saw the wet spot.

 

I criss crossed and slid it a little.....I think if I had dipped my left shoulder I would have gone down like Ewan in that video from a couple weeks ago.

 

 

Whip

[Huzband]

I think you just answered your own question.

 

It all depends on circumstances, without there being a defined line as to where riding style comes into play.

 

Your scenario of diesel on the tarmac is an excellent example of why one should have some knowledge, even if not proficiency, about dirt bike riding. You're no doubt correct, if you had leaned in to the slide, you'd have come up with case of Calvin shoulder.

 

I believe the thing that gets most riders into trouble is, they learn only one way to ride, & when they encounter a situation that dictates another, they can only do what they know.

 

Then they come here to ask why they crashed.

 

Whip, don't worry about when or where, just be confident that you know the difference, & can use it when needed.

 

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

"Leaning to the inside is appropriate where suspension behavior (i.e. traction) and cornering clearance are critical, "

 

Traction????????

 

Not true in the dirt....

 

What's the difference????

 

Let me declare up front that I have just about zero experience with dirt riding. It'll take someone with good theoretical knowledge of both to give you a truly definitive answer on this, but I'll offer my speculation, and you can take it for what it's worth.

 

<speculation>

Street riding: your goal is to maintain static traction between tire and road. You want the suspension to act in as near a vertical plane as possible so as to absorb bumps and smooth out (time-wise) the contact force between tire and road, minimizing the time during which the tire is unloaded (i.e. just after a bump). if the bike is leaned over hard, the suspension can't soak up the bumps as effectively, and you're more likely to break from static traction and start a slide.

 

Dirt riding: you are fully expecting to break from static traction and slide the rear wheel as you power out of a turn, but you want this to be a controlled, smooth event, as opposed to the bike suddenly spiraling/stepping out from under you. You want the bike closer to horizontal so that the rear suspension can smooth out the sliding action and make things predictable.

 

On a dead-smooth stretch of pavement (or at very slow speeds), suspension activity won't matter so much, and so traction is not likely to be significiantly affected by body english; whether you slide or not will be dictated almost entirely by your speed/lateral acceleration and the frictional properties of the road surface.

</speculation>

[Whip]

static traction

 

vertical plane

 

contact force

 

speed/lateral acceleration and the frictional properties

 

 

I few more days and this Ferndale High Grad will have what you said figured out...

 

Then again maybe not.

 

[David]

Whip, here's how I think of it. You only need to worry about body position when two things are true: a) you are doing fast and traction is critical; b) you're leaned over and traction is critical. That's an oversimplification, but it's a useful way to think about it. For example, going fast in a straight line wouldn't be much of a factor in terms of my body position. Nor would turning sharp at a slow speed.

 

Here's another way to look at it: unless the bike is moving fast, there's no force to counteract the weight of hanging your body off the inside, so don't mess with it.

 

Having said all that, there are many situations where it is BETTER to push the bike under you (going fast around a corner on pavement is never one of those):

 

1) Keep the front from "pushing" as you turn (think dirt riding).

 

2) Severely decreasing the turning radius by rolling on the side portion of the tire (think dirt and street).

[Mister Tee]

I always counterbalance in low-speed parking lot turns, u-turns and corners - that's just a standard technique for slow speed maneuvering on the street. In any other situation, I'll be leaned to the inside, and significantly depending on my speed and the radius of the curve.

 

One of the biggest mistakes new riders make is either sitting bolt upright on a high speed curve, or even counterbalancing to the outside - both of which can lead to an "oh s***t" moment during cornering.

 

The basic idea in high speed cornering is to keep the bike itself as upright as possible while you go through the corner. If you take the curve too fast, and you're leaned to the inside of the bike, you can always pull the bike down into a greater lean, but if you're leaning to the outside, or you're totally upright, you can't.

 

If I'm approaching a curve and I'm not sure about it, I'll always exaggerate my body lean to the inside just in case. We teach new riders on the track to "kiss the mirror" when rounding a curve.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Actually, I rarely bother to counterbalance in even low speed u-turns. I just lean it over and accelerate as I go, leaning the body along with the bike. The lateral forces are so low there is little benefit to leaning off the bike. The key is to accelerate, or at least maintain neutral throttle all the way through the turn. So long as I have somewhere around 8 foot radius, I'm fine with this. Since I don't have to protect a dry clutch, 2nd gear and 2 fingers on the clutch is normal as well. Blackbird has too much low end torque for first gear, makes throttle control a little too sensitive.

[BruceWA]

Could someone please enlighten me as to the meaning of the term Criss-cross"? My web search was unsuccessful.

[David]

It's more commonly called cross-controlling. It means that the bike is leaning more than you the rider are. So you are more upright and the bike is leaned.

[Whip]

Could someone please enlighten me as to the meaning of the term Criss-cross"? My web search was unsuccessful.

 

Sorry my man....I kinda made it up.

 

[BruceWA]

I've been suckered in again!

 

Thanks Whip!!!

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Could someone please enlighten me as to the meaning of the term Criss-cross"? My web search was unsuccessful.

 

This is "Criss-Cross" style:

 

 

Bike is closer to horizontal, rider is closer to vertical. Opposite of what a GP rider does, i.e. bike closer to vertical, rider closer to horizontal.

[russell_bynum]

I'm having trouble putting this in words, but....

 

In the Neduro Dualsport riding techniques DVD, he talks about counter-balancing the bike in turns. The way he demonstrated it was he rode in a really tight circle...and stopped. He said if you have to put your inside foot down, you aren't counter-balancing enough.

 

That got me thinking (I know...it's a dangerous thing)....

 

When you are properly counter-balanced, you could stop moving, and not fall over. Wouldn't it also mean that if the bike loses traction and slides, it will not tip over? If the bike is balanced so that it doesn't fall over when you stop, it seems to me that it would be balanced so that it doesn't fall over when it slides.

 

So...as far as traction is concerned, you don't counter-balance the bike so that you get better traction...you counter balance the bike so that when you lose traction, you're as balanced as possible so you don't pull the bike down with you.

 

That explains why a counter-balancing dirt rider can slide all over the place and it's no big deal, but a hanging-off GP racer has a pretty narrow margin of error once things start sliding (and a front slide while the bike is leaned very much gets ugly real fast).

 

Thoughts?

[Whip]

I would think that having your weight over/on top of the tires would give you more traction at slower speeds and that's why we weight the outside peg and criss cross in the dirt when turning.....it also helps to balance the bike at slower speeds. I don't know about the sliding part, I don't practice that very often, but it sounds reasonable, look at the dirt trackers.

 

 

BTW ED.......I tried what your were talkin about(I think)......no chance......if you lean to the inside and try to make a u-turn the bike will not turn in 8 feet or 18 feet, more like 30 feet.

 

 

Whip

[motorman587]

It's more commonly called cross-controlling. It means that the bike is leaning more than you the rider are. So you are more upright and the bike is leaned.

 

Isn't it counter steering in the MSF world???

[ShovelStrokeEd]

I did say radius so a 16 foot, that might just be a little tight an estimate but I do it to enter my parking space every day. Perpendicular at the adjacent space and just lean it over to make a 90 and come out in the center of my space, stop and back up. I don't treat it any differently from a regular turn.

[Huzband]

So...as far as traction is concerned, you don't counter-balance the bike so that you get better traction...you counter balance the bike so that when you lose traction, you're as balanced as possible so you don't pull the bike down with you.

 

An excellent visual of this is watching a good short track race, or even the GNC half mile, or mile races.

 

Those guys are constantly wavering from leaning IN to the turn to cross controlling the bike under them, all in the name of balance/traction/speed/trajectory.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

When you are properly counter-balanced, you could stop moving, and not fall over. Wouldn't it also mean that if the bike loses traction and slides, it will not tip over? If the bike is balanced so that it doesn't fall over when you stop, it seems to me that it would be balanced so that it doesn't fall over when it slides.

 

So...as far as traction is concerned, you don't counter-balance the bike so that you get better traction...you counter balance the bike so that when you lose traction, you're as balanced as possible so you don't pull the bike down with you.

 

That explains why a counter-balancing dirt rider can slide all over the place and it's no big deal, but a hanging-off GP racer has a pretty narrow margin of error once things start sliding (and a front slide while the bike is leaned very much gets ugly real fast).

 

Thoughts?

 

Again, I'm speaking from a near-total lack of dirt-riding experience; I don't know exactly what is going on, but I can state what isn't going on.

 

Your speed and your turning radius together completely determine the lateral acceleration, which is what ultimately determines the location of your combined center of mass (relative to contact patches). Leaning off one way or the other will not change this; lean in, the bike leans out, or lean out, and the bike leans in, either way your combined (that is, bike + rider) center of mass isn't going to relocate unless you change your speed and/or your turning radius.

 

It is the location of your combined COM that determines whether you are going to fall over when you come to a stop; if the COM is directly above the contact patches (or at least close enough for some tightrope-style body english), you'll stay vertical, otherwise gravity is gonna pull you down.

 

When your instructor is doing the tight-circle thing and coming to a stop, he is moving his COM, either by shifting his body or bringing the bike more upright, when he comes to a dead stop. So whatever it is that counter-balancing does for you in the dirt, he isn't explaining it very well.

 

<speculation>

I think there's something more complex and transient going on when recovering from a slide in the dirt, involving a rapid change in body position that allows a rider to not fall down copmletely when the wheels break loose, and that maybe leaning one's body to the outside of the turn helps a rider to perform this rapid body relocation (whereas a GP rider, leaning to the inside, is pretty much screwed once the skid starts). David's explanation of keeping the front wheel on the ground for better steering also makes sense: rather than the torque of the rear wheel popping a vertical wheelie, the front wheel is wheelied toward the inside of the turn.

</speculation>

[Mister Tee]

(whereas a GP rider, leaning to the inside, is pretty much screwed once the skid starts). David's explanation of keeping the front

 

Really. I disagree - what determines how screwed you are when a skid starts is what kind of pavement you're on, and what you do in reaction. The natural reaction riders tend to have when they lose the rear wheel is to chop the throttle. This does two things - the rear wheel instantly regains traction, and rapidly changes the acceleration in to the turn, like slamming on your rear brake. This normally leads to an instant high side.

 

The best thing one can do is keep a constant throttle and let the bike drift. In fact, adding power isn't a bad idea. Why? The rear wheel has a very large amount of rotational inertia, which tends to keep the bike stable in a lean. As long as it is rotating at approximately the same speed or a higher speed than the bike, the bike will drift, but maintain its lean, and when traction is regained, a faster spinning wheel will accelerate the bike slightly and provide additional weight transfer to the rear wheel, which is beneficial in exiting a corner.

[BruceWA]

Understand, I think, what you are expressing. In the dirt bike world the bike is given more freedom to make changes in direction/latitude than in the paved world. One way to express this would be to say that the rider allows the dirt bike to "go where it wants" or more correctly, to let the bike/components perform their designed tasks as much as possible, with the rider making corrections to maintain control. As others have noted the pavement rider has much smaller margin for input error.

 

There is more room for rider input error in the dirt than on the pavement. At least that is my experience.

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

(whereas a GP rider, leaning to the inside, is pretty much screwed once the skid starts). David's explanation of keeping the front

 

Really. I disagree - what determines how screwed you are when a skid starts is what kind of pavement you're on, and what you do in reaction.

 

Certainly there are things that can be done with the throttle in either case to recover from a slide, but I was thinking in terms of what the rider can do with his body to maintain some semblance of balance when a slide begins.

[Mister Tee]

>Certainly there are things that can be done with the throttle in either case to recover from a slide, but I was thinking in terms of what the rider can do with his body to maintain some semblance of balance when a slide begins.

 

The answer is don't change it until you regain traction, but you're in a better position if you're leaned inward of the curve. Even if you break traction at high speed, you can still adjust the lean position of your bike by countersteering (remember the gyroscopic action of the wheels offer a great deal of stabilization.) If you're leaned to the inside, you still have the option to steer the bike more upright and put your body down lower if you're skidding, or lower the bike if you're not and you need to tighten the radius. If you're leaned outside of the turn, you don't have much of an option. At least not on the pavement, anyway. If you try to raise the bike, you're either going off the road, or off your bike. If you try to lower it, well, you can only go so low.

[bvaughan]

At what speed/condition should ya switch back to Ridesmart?

 

countersteering's the way for high speed,even if you're not hanging off . . .

well, he's really hanging off, or is he . . .

look at his spine angle as compared with the bike centerline.

empirical answer: when you're going fast enough that you can't keep the inside bar pushed enough to keep the bike down in the turn, ya gotta be hanging off or at least leaning in, unless you're ruben xaus, otherwise you'll either run wide or just look like a LEO.

theoretical answer: start here

[russell_bynum]

countersteering's the way for high speed,even if you're not hanging off . . .

 

Let's not confuse terminology...Countersteering is turning the bars in the opposite direction of the intended turn.

 

Counter-balancing (or cross-controlling) is pushing the bike down while you keep your body upright.

 

I'll also note two things about the pics you posted:

 

1. That's a supermoto bike, which are riden with a style more like a dirt bike than a roadracer.

2. Ruben crashes...a lot.

[bvaughan]

countersteering's the way for high speed,even if you're not hanging off . . .

 

Let's not confuse terminology...Countersteering is turning the bars in the opposite direction of the intended turn.

 

Counter-balancing (or cross-controlling) is pushing the bike down while you keep your body upright.

it's not confused. countersteering at high speed is the only way to turn. leaning into the turn, either by hanging off or just leaning in helps a lot and as the speed goes up becomes necessary, at least for mere mortals. xaus's technique seems to put the lie to that, although at very high speeds i suspect that even he'd hang off properly. the question in the original post is when does one switch from leaning in to "cross-controlling," as you call it. my answer is when you're not able comfortably to maintain your line through the turn by countersteering -- that's when you need to stop cross-controlling and lean in towards the center of the turn and, at some point, slide your butt off the seat. xaus's technique is similar to what you see in pix of a lot of veteran racers: pelvis slid to the inside of the turn but head to the outside of the bike centerline, sort of a hybrid.

 

I'll also note two things about the pics you posted:

 

1. That's a supermoto bike, which are riden with a style more like a dirt bike than a roadracer.

2. Ruben crashes...a lot.

so, 1, what is it about supermoto/dirt bike geometry that requires or encourages a different style, i.e., cross-controlling, and 2, so what? in the pix he's stable in the turn, countersteering and cross-controlled on hardsurface. or is he not really cross-controlled but in that hybrid position, because his pelvis is hanging off, but his spine and shoulders are leaning out. in an earlier thread LEOs on this board have said they basically never hang off, just cross-control or, at the most, keep their spine aligned with the bike centerline. their answer is thus "never".

[russell_bynum]

xaus's technique is similar to what you see in pix of a lot of veteran racers: pelvis slid to the inside of the turn but head to the outside of the bike centerline, sort of a hybrid.

 

Right. It works for him, but that doesn't mean it's the "best" way to ride.

 

Just looking at the physics of it, most of your weight is above your waist. So, if you hang off to get your weight to the inside so that the bike can remain more upright, then you'd want to get your upper body as far off as possible. Twisting around the tank like Xaus, Bayliss, Duhamel, etc do is somewhat counter productive because even though it gets your ass inside the turn, the heaviest bit of you is on the centerline of the bike (or even on the outside).

 

If that's what they need to do to feel comfortable and confident on the bike, then that's what they do...but it doesn't mean it's the "best" way to go.

 

Like I said...they're not fast because they do that, they're fast and they do that.

 

The majority of the top roadracers do not ride that way.

 

 

so, 1, what is it about supermoto/dirt bike geometry that requires or encourages a different style, i.e., cross-controlling,

 

I don't really know. I've asked that question myself several times and never really got an answer that I was satisfied with. I know that when I ride my dirt bike in the dirt, if I lean into the turn, the front washes out and I take a soil sample. If I cross-control the bike, sometimes it slides, sometimes it doesn't, but I stay upright. On the street (supermoto)...I really don't know why they do it that way.

 

and 2, so what? in the pix he's stable in the turn, countersteering and cross-controlled on hardsurface.

 

In the pic, he's sideways with smoke pouring off the rear tire.

 

in an earlier thread LEOs on this board have said they basically never hang off, just cross-control or, at the most, keep their spine aligned with the bike centerline. their answer is thus "never

 

Correct. LEO motor training is (from what I've heard from the motor officers that I've talked to) totally devoted to low speed stuff where that technique is exactly what you need to do. They are not training for dealing with high speed curves where an entirely different technique (minimize the bike's lean angle by using your body weight) is called for.

 

I wouldn't ask Keith Code to teach me to ride my bike in a tight 1st-gear figure eight, and I wouldn't ask a LEO motor instructor to teach me how to go around a 90mph sweeper.

[Mister Tee]

russell_Bynum has some excellent points.

 

Note that Supermoto courses are generally run at low speeds, at least compared to supersport speeds, and sliding on slippery pavement is part of that style. Yes, if you chose to ride your RT or your sportbike that way, e.g. sliding around on pavement at relatively low speeds, then yes, you would probably want to counterbalance the same way Supermoto riders do. But, as pointed out, they tend to dump their bikes a lot too. Personally, I'll leave that to them.

 

But the difference here is that unless we're riding in a wet parking lot at above normal speed, traction loss is generally going to be an issue at high speeds during hard cornering, and that's what we need to plan and prepare for.

 

I did ask a CHP motor cop once why they tended to always lean outside of the curves at high speeds, and he brought up a couple important points - the first being that 99% of high-speed riding is through gentle highway curves, weaving in an out of traffic, not negotiating sweepers. The second being that leaning into a turn is very difficult with all the gear that they have to wear. Surely there is a motor cop here that can chime in on this.

[BruceWA]

I know that when I ride my dirt bike in the dirt, if I lean into the turn, the front washes out and I take a soil sample.

 

When riding a dirt bike agressively it is crucial to weigh the front end during cornering. Have also experienced what you have mentioned here, and "generally" it has been a failure on my part to weigh the front wheel while cornering.