Barriers to Riding?

[Misti]

What do you think is the greatest barrier you face in your riding?

What one thing, (technique or skill) is preventing you from being the rider you want to be?

 

Misti

[steve.foote]

It's a pretty good question, Misty. My first instinctual answer was 'time.' But, then I thought, I could make as much time available for riding as I'd like if I really wanted to.

 

So, I'm going to change my answer to 'desire.' If I really wanted to improve my riding, I would.

[smiller]

OK, I'll say it... fear. Fear of bodily injury (and perhaps not insignificant monetary expense as well) if I make a mistake. My current skill level has gotten me through 32 years without a serious accident, but I know I could do much better in terms of 'performance' riding if I applied myself. But I don't want to get mangled up in the process. Oh, the shame...

 

You know what they say about getting older... 'less to prove, more to lose...'

[T__]

What do you think is the greatest barrier you face in your riding?

What one thing, (technique or skill) is preventing you from being the rider you want to be?

 

Misti

 

 

Misti, I don’t suppose you would buy AGE as a valid barrier.. I can barely get a knee down to tie my shoe laces..

 

Probably lots of things-- but at or near the top of my list would be nice & expensive bikes.. I will take it close to the edge but don’t want to trash a nice bike so always leave something on the table.. Keep telling myself I need a track only bike but never seem to get one..

 

Twisty

[Firefight911]

Excellent question Misti!

 

It, invariable, is very difficult to boil things down to just one thing (City Slicker style ), but to stay within the confines of the question, I would have to say vision.

 

Not Nostradamus but visual survey of the environment as it presents itself to you during the course of your ride.

 

The old adage of you go where you look. Look Left - Go left. Look Right - Go Right. Look Down - . . .

 

A side to this is visual reference points. Of course, the importance of this goes without saying when in the environment of the race track where the real estate repeats itself every lap and the reference point guides the braking, turning, and accelerating.

 

IMO, reference points are still important in the street environment. Being able to identify them is one thing. Being able to understand them another. And being able to use the information another.

[Francois_Dumas]

Oh to be twenty again without a worry in the world and full of testosterone...... That would be my barrier to 'sporty riding'.

 

As it is, I am happy with my touring style and try to improve my skills and experience by riding consciously.... and to stay alive in one piece. What more can one wish for ??

[russell_bynum]

Confidence.

 

I routinely find myself in a corner at the track, I've got all my RP's picked out, I know where I am and where I'm going, but every time I start to open the throttle, I think about how much it would suck to fall off, and I back off (I don't roll off the gas, but I don't roll on nearly as hard as I know I could.)

 

I've had two crashes at the track, and while I can go back afterwards and say what I did wrong, I didn't see anything going bad when I was out there until I was on the ground sliding. I don't like surprises like that. In both cases, everything felt really good, calm, and in control one minute and the next minute I was off the bike.

 

In the dirt, there are things that I know I could do if I just grew a set and pinned the throttle, but in my head I know that the faster I go, the faster I'll be going when I fall, so I slow down, and fall because I didn't have the momentum to make it up the hill.

[Paul Mihalka]

Well, for me it is not so much what prevents me from being the rider I want to be, but what prevents me from being the rider I was. Obviously, the simple answer is age. I know that my reaction times are slower and I take that into account while riding. The difference that kept me sharp for many-many years and I don't have now is time on race tracks. I stopped racing in 1954 (age 23), but kept on being on race tracks all the time. In Venezuela just for fun (I was part of the organizers) or holding informal novice racer schools. In the USA since 1982, I did a Reg Pridmore's CLASS day every year, some times twice a year. I called it my yearly tune-up. I always rode my everyday bike, because that was the situation I wanted to push close to the limits. That put me in conditions of hard braking, way-over lean angles, precise line picking, that I won't do on the road, but I do it by instinct if needed, because I've done it before. I did the last CLASS in 2001 at age 70, and I wasn't the slowest guy on the track...

[smiller]

Confidence.

Yes, that's what I was trying to say in my post in using the word fear, but I like your terminology and description better. Same syndrome though. Surely others must feel this way as well?

[ShovelStrokeEd]

I wish I had a better feel for what the bike is doing. I seem to recover OK when it starts to go bad but I don't get that feel that things are about to. One moment I'm OK and then the front is trying to tuck (happened three times to me). I would say that more track time would probably be the solution. I spend far too much time just slabbing from place to place and I'm good at that. Trouble is, when I get to the twisties, it takes way too long to get my mojo workin' cause I may not have ridden anything more than a couple of on ramps in the last few months.

[lawnchairboy]

Time, time, time.

 

Just don't have it at the moment.

[Silver Surfer/AKAButters]

Traffic.

[Quinn]

I think it was William Blake who said that you never know how much is enough until you know how much is too much. I'm too old and brittle to want to find out how much is too much. I've only returned to riding a year ago and it's on a much different bike. I'm also dedicating myself to a much more concious, learning experience this time. I'm hoping that will make the difference down the road and I'll end up a better rider. So far, though, all the thinking is keeping me from relaxing and makes me overcautious of what could happen. As an example, when I pull up at a stop sign, it is in two steps. First I pull up, modulating the brakes, keeping the forks pointed straight, and put down my foot. Then, once stopped, I looked left and right. Two separate steps; I still can't look around as I'm pulling up; got to be completely stopped. I've gotten better; a lot of things are now on the sub-concious level and don't require the direct attention that they did when I first started back.

[Woodie]

You again? With the thoughtful questions? What are we, a focus group????

 

As mentioned above, unwillingness to experience what "too much" is (lean, speed, brakes, etc...) in order to learn the limit, is one limiting factor.

 

For me, because I usually ride to work and back, no weekends, rare trips, it's "lack of focus". I'll call it "utility riding". I need to get there, with some sort of time constraints, and there's a pile of things to do waiting at the end of the ride. It's distracting, and means that I'm not truly paying 100% attention, 100% of the time. So there, I admit it! Flame on!

 

Solutions:

Riding less?

Stop riding to (live) work, start riding for focussed fun. No deadlines, just guidelines.

Stay in the moment.

 

 

As I mentioned above...thought provoking question.

 

[leikam]

I'm pretty content with my technical skills, such as they are. My biggest barrier to riding is having nowhere to go.

[Rich_O]

1. Understanding why I crashed. I'm working on that. I allowed too many things to go wrong...mostly tiredness, also visual perception.

2. How to fix the problem.

3. Having a bike to ride.

 

I'm going to put a H.A.L.T. placard next to the key on my next bike.

 

Hungry? Angry? Lonely? Tired? ...reasons to halt.

[camille]

I asked myself the same question a few weeks ago.

 

I want to ride more winding roads.....so I signed up Superbike school. Cornering class should help! Can't wait to be there.

[jaytee]

1. fear: of falling, of wrecking, of screwing up, of not seeign the spilled gasoline on the road...

 

2. lack of confidence: in my ability to properly pick a line when there is little margin for error, in my ability to properly choose the lean angle/body lean/bar pressure in the aforementioned case

 

3. lack of opportunity: to air it all out in a more or less safe environment wihtout having to do the track thing

[BWS]

This may be a little over the top for some but its very real to me..........some of the twistys here are very steeply banked.I'm getting very queasy(sp) doin Rtys,and this isn't anywhere "near the limit".Braking forces aren't a problem,in fact enjoy that.Only problem with acceleration is its invariably hitting the pocket book(driveline/tyre wear)in one way or other,but the forces are easy to deal with.........Nope,its when my head gets anyway near as low as my heart its "puke city".I do fine on flat and mildly banked tightys.

 

The thoughts of certain carnival rides even,make me nauseous.

[Horse]

Confidence.

Yes, that's what I was trying to say in my post in using the word fear, but I like your terminology and description better. Same syndrome though. Surely others must feel this way as well?

 

Oh I don't know, I think you had it with the 'fear' aspect.

 

Isn't it in Code's stuff that fear of crashing can make you crash?

 

Quite understandable, that if you're afraid of something you'll either avoid it (in my case fear of crash & pain, which I avoid by riding more slowly that others) or make it happen (tension not allowing relaxed steering etc = crash).

 

Perhaps another way of looking at it is not so much 'what barriers do you have', but 'why are your limits different to other riders?'

 

I've often wondered why I ended up even being a regular long-term rider.

 

I don't like getting cold & wet

I'm afraid of falling & getting hurt

I don't have a prticularly great sense of balance

I'm not a risk-seeker

I have no other thrill-seeking hobbies

 

Yet I ended up whizzing around on large bikes for 30+ years . . .

[jfremder]

Confidence.

I've had two crashes at the track, and while I can go back afterwards and say what I did wrong, I didn't see anything going bad

 

I have to second that confidence thing. I only have a few track days/classes under my belt. Haven't got a knee down yet. I wonder whether my 48 yr old body, fear, and reading how quick a lowside happens will allow me to continue to improve... I still have a blast anyway

[Quinn]

[quote

I've often wondered why I ended up even being a regular long-term rider.

 

I don't like getting cold & wet

I'm afraid of falling & getting hurt

I don't have a prticularly great sense of balance

I'm not a risk-seeker

I have no other thrill-seeking hobbies

 

Yet I ended up whizzing around on large bikes for 30+ years . . .

 

 

Horse, you a man after my own heart. My only excuse is that I enjoy doing things I'm not really good at. Think it's because I amaze myself when I succeed. And, when you get right down to it, that's who I'm trying to please.

[Silver Surfer/AKAButters]

Hungry? Angry? Lonely? Tired? ...reasons to halt.

 

Dang! That would put me out of the saddle full time. The good news is, after a few minutes on the bike, I am no longer L or T, but never angry and always hungry.

[upflying]

Not enough time is a biggie for me. Although I am retired, I am busier now than when I was a working stiff. Retirement just gives you more time do things you didn't have time for before. I guess riding isn't a priority but I did manage to put 30,000 local mi on my bike in the past four years.

[Horse]

 

 

And, when you get right down to it, that's who I'm trying to please.

 

Yup, I get my pleasure from doing it as well as I can. I know I'm never going to be as brave/fast/stupid as other riders, so I set my challenge as being as smooth/inch perfect, timed-well, and fluid as I can.

 

[BeamieToo]

I always keep a picture of my wife and kids in my minds eye.

At age 52 and after 36 years in the saddle I'm still honing my SURVIVAL skills.

I've become the rider I want to be and am happy with the status quo.

[Rich_O]

Somemiddy git Buttr's a samich!

 

Distraction is the big issue and you have to be checking yourself. If you're sure, from experience, that the riding will clear up those factors quickly, then you are GTG.

 

Just stay aware of the factors as the day wears on.

 

Aggressiveness is the thing that would have helped me that day. L and T tend to sap aggressiveness and focus. A little A can help focus as long it's not to the point where control is lost. H? maybe not a factor, unless you tend to get "shaky" when hungry. Carry some G-bars and fruit for those times when it will be a little while longer before the next food stop.

[Misti]

Excellent question Misti!

 

It, invariable, is very difficult to boil things down to just one thing (City Slicker style ), but to stay within the confines of the question, I would have to say vision.

 

Not Nostradamus but visual survey of the environment as it presents itself to you during the course of your ride.

 

The old adage of you go where you look. Look Left - Go left. Look Right - Go Right. Look Down - . . .

 

A side to this is visual reference points. Of course, the importance of this goes without saying when in the environment of the race track where the real estate repeats itself every lap and the reference point guides the braking, turning, and accelerating.

 

IMO, reference points are still important in the street environment. Being able to identify them is one thing. Being able to understand them another. And being able to use the information another.

 

Hahahah I laughed out loud on some of these answers and could relate to a lot of them. This is the one I related the most too. Visual skills. A lot of people said that fear is a big barrier to their riding, often listing age and fear of crashing and getting hurt as the main reasons. I wonder if things like vision have an effect on those feelings of fear. I know that when I am having a good day visually, seeing far ahead, picking up good reference points, looking through the turns, my sense of fear disappears. I don't get as afraid. On days I am afraid, I notice that my visual skills suck.

 

I wonder, for the people that listed fear, and fear of crashing, if there was some specific skill you could learn that would take away that fear, and ultimately remove or at least reduce some of the fear. Does that make sense?

What do you think? For example, someone said they wanted to have a better feel for the bike, to understand how to feel the tires. If you had practice with sliding and understanding the way tires feel and what to do if they did start to slide, would that reduce some of the fear and therefore get rid of that riding barrier? Could you break down the barrier of "fear" to something more tangible?

 

Hmmmmmm?

[Francois_Dumas]

If you had practice with sliding and understanding the way tires feel and what to do if they did start to slide, would that reduce some of the fear and therefore get rid of that riding barrier? Could you break down the barrier of "fear" to something more tangible?

 

Hmmmmmm?

 

Yes, I believe that would help. I still am totally confident in any car, fast or slow, because I have done a lot of racing. I learned to drift, power slide, had my 'outings' and so know what to expect and when to expect it (that doesn't mean it always turned out as expected ).

 

I have never really raced a motorbike, so I don't know what to expect on border-line situations... and have no idea what the thresholds are.

 

My solution so far is not to attend racing classes(too expensive and doesn't have my interest anymore, sorry) but rather to adapt my riding style to my (in this case more limited) skills.

 

Fear is bad. If I'd be afraid, I'd stop riding. Period.

[russell_bynum]

What do you think? For example, someone said they wanted to have a better feel for the bike, to understand how to feel the tires. If you had practice with sliding and understanding the way tires feel and what to do if they did start to slide, would that reduce some of the fear and therefore get rid of that riding barrier? Could you break down the barrier of "fear" to something more tangible?

 

Perhaps.

 

I'm comfortable with the rear tire of my dirt bike spinning and sliding, but the transition from grip to slip always seems to be much more gradual there. On the track, both times I came off, I didn't perceive any warning signs...one minute it was hooked up and gripping, the next minute I was down.

 

I rode the "slide bike" a couple of years ago at Barber and had fun with it. I didn't really have trouble controlling the slide when it happened. When it's happened to me in real life, things have gone from "everything's great" to "you're screwed" faster than I could react.

 

I assume that the problem is I failed to spot the warning signs that it was about to start spinning, but it still seems like it was much more sudden and violent than when it broke loose on the slide bike.

[smiller]

If you had practice with sliding and understanding the way tires feel and what to do if they did start to slide, would that reduce some of the fear and therefore get rid of that riding barrier? Could you break down the barrier of "fear" to something more tangible?

It definitely would in my case but in my experience street tires and pavement are pretty unpredictable things and loss of traction is not always easily estimated or controlled outside of a race environment. As a result I probably err way on the side of caution and thus give up a lot of performance potential. 'Drifting' in a car may be fun but it's pure pucker on a bike, at least for me. I'd like to try that 'slide bike' contraption...

[eddd]

I'm not looking to push my motorcycle anywhere near its limits. The main reason is that road conditions are so unpredicable. In my neck of the woods, it is not unusual to see gravel and and even cement on the roads (new "deposits" pretty much on a weekly basis). Seeing this on my commute makes this boy a very cautious rider.

 

I guess the bottom line is that, with training and practice, I could become a better rider, but I'm just not sure it is worth it given how I ride. The motorcycle riding I do now is very enjoyable.

 

I do enjoy some spirited riding on my mountain bike. I guess I get my fill of "hanging it out" on the two wheel attached to the Cannondale.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Misti,

I'm the guy who mentioned the front end tucking on me when I didn't expect it to, or put another way, I had no warning. 2 of the three times, I could understand it, first, too hot into an off camber corner with moisture, bonehead move and it tucked big time. I just wrestled it back up and went wide on the exit, no biggie, I had a lot of room. 2nd time I hit a frost heave, mid corner and got the front tire on the wrong side of the edge, wrestled it back again, or it recovered on its own, I'm not really sure, and no worries. Third time, I haven't the faintest idea what went off. Mid speed corner up on Deals Gap, probably no more than 50 mph, rolled it in, rolled on a little gas, just like normal and damn if all of a sudden my boot was on the ground, front of the fairing scraping and bars not pointing anywhere near where they should. Again, adamant refusal to allow the bike to fall, just more or less yanked the bars back where they belong, allowed me to recover and proceed in an ungainly fashion through the rest of the curve. I didn't feel any fear in any of these cases until after the event was over. More "NO YOU DON'T, You big SOB". The yips did follow each of these and I remained detuned for most of the rest of the ride.

 

I do think some time spent sliding and pushing to the limits would give me better skills at anticipating this kind of thing. I'm sure there were signals and had I felt them before, I would have known to back off a bit or find a better line. I probably need to just head out into the sand on a dual sport and shove the thing around till it gets squirrelly and then keep it there till I figure out what the signals are. Sand, at least without rocks or roots in it, is pretty forgiving.

 

I don't fear crashing per se, I've done it enough to know that if you have the right gear on and the Gods are somewhat with you, it'll really only cost you some money to fix the bike up and replace some rashed gear. I would much prefer to explore these limits at a track rather than on the street though. P'rolly past time to send Keith some more money.

[T__]

Misti,

I'm the guy who mentioned the front end tucking on me when I didn't expect it to, or put another way, I had no warning. 2 of the three times, I could understand it, first, too hot into an off camber corner with moisture, bonehead move and it tucked big time. I just wrestled it back up and went wide on the exit, no biggie, I had a lot of room. 2nd time I hit a frost heave, mid corner and got the front tire on the wrong side of the edge, wrestled it back again, or it recovered on its own, I'm not really sure, and no worries. Third time, I haven't the faintest idea what went off. Mid speed corner up on Deals Gap, probably no more than 50 mph, rolled it in, rolled on a little gas, just like normal and damn if all of a sudden my boot was on the ground, front of the fairing scraping and bars not pointing anywhere near where they should. Again, adamant refusal to allow the bike to fall, just more or less yanked the bars back where they belong, allowed me to recover and proceed in an ungainly fashion through the rest of the curve. I didn't feel any fear in any of these cases until after the event was over. More "NO YOU DON'T, You big SOB". The yips did follow each of these and I remained detuned for most of the rest of the ride.

 

I do think some time spent sliding and pushing to the limits would give me better skills at anticipating this kind of thing. I'm sure there were signals and had I felt them before, I would have known to back off a bit or find a better line. I probably need to just head out into the sand on a dual sport and shove the thing around till it gets squirrelly and then keep it there till I figure out what the signals are. Sand, at least without rocks or roots in it, is pretty forgiving.

 

I don't fear crashing per se, I've done it enough to know that if you have the right gear on and the Gods are somewhat with you, it'll really only cost you some money to fix the bike up and replace some rashed gear. I would much prefer to explore these limits at a track rather than on the street though. P'rolly past time to send Keith some more money.

 

Ed, you don’t have too soft of front springs on that thing do you.. Sounds like it might be compressing & going low in the front so you are losing your front-end geometry..

 

Twisty

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Front springs are a factor, the bike has 63K on it now and is approaching 7 years old and still has the factory springs. I have a set of Hyperpro springs on order for it and plan on adding some valving changes to the front damper assemblies as well. I expect that will improve things a good deal. Rear spring is getting changed as well as that has sagged quite a bit over the last 15K miles or so. Oddly, the rear shock still has pretty good damping although the improved front end and new spring at the back may well make that the weak link. No problem, Penske still sells shocks for these things, as do Ohlins, Wilburs, Hyperpro and probably a couple of others.

[Ken H.]

Well it's not a technique or skill, but for me the answer is location. And by extension, financial limitations. Being the the middle of the Midwest any real training venues are non-existent. Especially lacking the finances to get myself to Barber or wherever. So I have to make do with whatever I can read about and try to teach myself.

[Horse]

Being the the middle of the Midwest any real training venues are non-existent. Especially lacking the finances to get myself to Barber or wherever. So I have to make do with whatever I can read about and try to teach myself.

 

Try my sig

[Misti]

Misti,

I'm the guy who mentioned the front end tucking on me when I didn't expect it to, or put another way, I had no warning. 2 of the three times, I could understand it, first, too hot into an off camber corner with moisture, bonehead move and it tucked big time. I just wrestled it back up and went wide on the exit, no biggie, I had a lot of room. 2nd time I hit a frost heave, mid corner and got the front tire on the wrong side of the edge, wrestled it back again, or it recovered on its own, I'm not really sure, and no worries. Third time, I haven't the faintest idea what went off. Mid speed corner up on Deals Gap, probably no more than 50 mph, rolled it in, rolled on a little gas, just like normal and damn if all of a sudden my boot was on the ground, front of the fairing scraping and bars not pointing anywhere near where they should. Again, adamant refusal to allow the bike to fall, just more or less yanked the bars back where they belong, allowed me to recover and proceed in an ungainly fashion through the rest of the curve. I didn't feel any fear in any of these cases until after the event was over. More "NO YOU DON'T, You big SOB". The yips did follow each of these and I remained detuned for most of the rest of the ride.

 

I do think some time spent sliding and pushing to the limits would give me better skills at anticipating this kind of thing. I'm sure there were signals and had I felt them before, I would have known to back off a bit or find a better line. I probably need to just head out into the sand on a dual sport and shove the thing around till it gets squirrelly and then keep it there till I figure out what the signals are. Sand, at least without rocks or roots in it, is pretty forgiving.

 

I don't fear crashing per se, I've done it enough to know that if you have the right gear on and the Gods are somewhat with you, it'll really only cost you some money to fix the bike up and replace some rashed gear. I would much prefer to explore these limits at a track rather than on the street though. P'rolly past time to send Keith some more money.

 

Interesting comments and this is a good one in terms of reminding us that sometimes unpredictable things happen and sometimes they happen without warning. Even the top racers and the best riders crash or make mistakes.

 

What I did notice in this thread though is that a lot of people agreed that more skills and practice would help them reduce their fear and ultimately help push the barriers to riding. I guess that was what I was getting at when I came up with the thread. Wondering what the most common barriers for people were when riding and then how do you overcome those barriers.

 

For me, fear plays a role in my riding and racing sometimes. Going into a corner too hot (or what I think is too hot) will trigger that, or getting passed super close by another rider will trigger fear. And fear is what causes a lot of mistakes. With my riding, the more I learn, skill wise, the more I push the limits and push past the fear. I don't get scared now going XX fast, the fear sets in now when I'm going XXX fast. Every time I get on the track I try to push myself a little further to press past the fear.

 

This may be a slightly different approach to overcoming barriers of riding then the everyday street rider but I think the basics are the same. In order to get past fear, you need to improve skills and technique.

 

Are there other ways to get rid of fear?

 

Misti

[russell_bynum]

Are there other ways to get rid of fear?

 

Alcohol.

 

 

[Ken H.]

I think the biggest cure for fear is familiarity. We are most fearful of what we don’t know. ‘ What will happen when I do this like this?’ Too fast going in, pass on the inside, what’s around the corner, etc. Riding at 9/10 on the street isn’t necessary or even prudent, but if we learn to ride at 9/10 somewhere, somehow, 7/10 on the street, or anywhere for that matter, is no longer so scary. We know what happens at 9/10 so 7/10 is no big deal.

 

Now if the situation suddenly requires 7/10 and 6/10 is all you know, now that’s fear!

[Paul Mihalka]

I think the biggest cure for fear is familiarity. We are most fearful of what we don’t know. ‘ What will happen when I do this like this?’ Too fast going in, pass on the inside, what’s around the corner, etc. Riding at 9/10 on the street isn’t necessary or even prudent, but if we learn to ride at 9/10 somewhere, somehow, 7/10 on the street, or anywhere for that matter, is no longer so scary. We know what happens at 9/10 so 7/10 is no big deal.

 

Now if the situation suddenly requires 7/10 and 6/10 is all you know, now that’s fear!

Ken, perfect description of why I suggest doing track schools. In the same line of thought is why I like to suggest doing it on your every-day bike if you are not really high-speed oriented, and not a sporty school bike. That way you KNOW you can do it on your bike if you have to.

[camille]

If you had practice with sliding and understanding the way tires feel and what to do if they did start to slide, would that reduce some of the fear and therefore get rid of that riding barrier?

 

Hey Misti,

 

A very experienced guy on this forum mentioned that he thinks braking in a skid is worth practicing regularly. Is this something they cover in superbike classes?