F800 ABS Brakes

[fisherman]

I was getting serious about buying this bike until I started poking around over on The 800 Riders Forum (F800Riders.org). They have page after page about problems with the ABS. Does anyone know anything about this?

[Bonkorama]

I have an F800s, and i cant say enough great things about it.

 

I had 2 complaints:

1: front end is soft. But that can be remedied with a set of progressive springs and heavier oil. A $300 fix or less.

2: Mirrors. I could not see behind me. I ordered the mirror extentions ( which are invisible practically) and that solved the problem.

 

So now im only down to 1 complaint. But truthfully, the front end isnt too soft for me, Im probably just going to leave it as it is.

 

Regarding the ABS - I practice panic stops weekly on both my R1100RT and F800S. From 60 mph to 0 in as short as distance I can.

 

My F800S has AWSOME brakes. Never had any problems.

 

OH - please note that most of the F800riders.org members are in europe. That can make a difference (in terms of the motorcycles we drive, not the users, I'm sure all europeans are nice folks - not crybabies like us ).

[bikebits]

 

Like on any other vehicle, the F800 ABS will lengthen stopping distances when it kicks in. In the meantime it increases directional stability and keeps the bike from going down. I think since the F800 is an "entry" level bike, a lot of the complainants are new to ABS on a motorcycle and aren't used to the increased stopping distance.

 

I don't really notice any net difference in the way the F800 ABS works compared to my car's. The F800 ABS system is the same as that used on the R1200S but I haven't heard any complaints to the way it functions on that bike.

[Ben_Ricci]

I was getting serious about buying this bike until I started poking around over on The 800 Riders Forum (F800Riders.org). They have page after page about problems with the ABS. Does anyone know anything about this?

 

I haven't looked at F800Riders.org in a while. What are they saying is wrong with the ABS?

 

I ride my wife's F800ST from time to time and took it on a reasonably long trip (one week) late in the summer and never had a hint of problems with the brakes (other than a little squeal from the rear pads once in a while). Like Bonkorama I fixed the mirrors, but otherwise there is really little to complain about on the F800. The F800ST is too upright for my tastes, but that's not a flaw in the bike (most people want to add bar risers to make it more upright). If my R12ST suddenly left this world, an F800S would be one of the first bikes I'd consider to replace it.

[Ben_Ricci]

Read the F800Riders.org thread(s). It's the same gripe one hears about any Beemer with ABS, so it's not F800 specific. Lots of comments could be made about the complaint(s), but that's another topic.

[fisherman]

Thanks all. If I can find a decent deal I think I might go for it.

 

Oh and "BikeBits" you can buy a new FJR 1300 for what the 800ST costs...doesn't seem like that's exactly "entry level".

[Bonkorama]

I dissagree with the term "entry level" to accurately describe a bike.

 

If your first bike is a Goldwing, or RT. Then that is YOUR entry level bike.

 

Sort of a senseless term.

 

F800 bikes are less expensive new than other new K or R bikes ( i think ), so maybe in that sense one could call it entry level.

 

If F800 bikes were "entry level", one would think that after owning one, you "move-up" to a R or K bike.But I think if you continue to read the F800 riders forum, you'll find many riders coming FROM those bikes to a F800x.

 

I'm done.

[bikebits]

After 25 years riding BMW's, I came to the F800 from an 1150 oilhead, with a K bike before that. The reason "entry" was in quotation marks was because that is the very word BMW is using to market the bike. Based on the tone of comments on the 'net and the reception I get from other BMW owners it has much wider appeal than that.

[Bonkorama]

I'm with you on that. It's just a word after all.

[NakedRider]

About those brakes...

 

I have an F800S with ABS. They are a problem. What happens when the activate is a "free wheel" effect rather than the "ABS cycling" effect most of us are used to.

 

I can recreate the problem upon will. Just hit the brakes hard enough to lock the front wheel and the brakes "release" causing you to shoot forward for some time before grabbing again. I unplugged my front sensor. BMW refused to accept that there is an issue with the system. You're better off without it IMO.

 

As for the 800 being an "entry" bike. Ride one. It's my 16 BMW, most of them were the big twins, and this bike will hold it's own with any of them as far as being a great all-round bike. I love it. Very easy to ride with plenty of punch.

 

I never expected to be won over by the 800 but I sure have been. Try it out. Very light.

[SageRider]

What happens when the activate is a "free wheel" effect rather than the "ABS cycling" effect most of us are used to.

 

I can recreate the problem upon will. Just hit the brakes hard enough to lock the front wheel and the brakes "release"

David,

How much are you unloading the rear tire when you hit your brakes to recreate the problem?

[fisherman]

"How much are you unloading the rear tire when you hit your brakes to recreate the problem?"

 

Michael,

 

With all due respect, in a panic situation when you grab all the brake you can, who is thinking about unloading the rear tire? The bike has ABS and it is supposed to work as intended every time. Go to the 800 Riders Forum and you will see case after case of this issue exactly as David has described.

 

Please don't take my response the wrong way, there is nothing personal here.

[SageRider]

"How much are you unloading the rear tire when you hit your brakes to recreate the problem?"

 

Michael,

 

With all due respect, in a panic situation when you grab all the brake you can, who is thinking about unloading the rear tire? The bike has ABS and it is supposed to work as intended every time. Go to the 800 Riders Forum and you will see case after case of this issue exactly as David has described.

 

Please don't take my response the wrong way, there is nothing personal here.

In the case questioned, the action is being triggered on purpose, so there is no panic involved.

The design of the ABS, at least on my RT is such that the front will release if it is perceived that the rear is in the air (anti-stoppie).

I always hated this for the reason that when one needs brakes the most, one essentially has none.

My question was to determine if this anti-stoppie effect was what was happening or if there was an additional issue.

 

Just a general motorcycle ABS thought though... If the rear tire is in the air / locked up, how does the ABS system know if the front is locked up or the bike is actually stopped?

[Ben_Ricci]

"How much are you unloading the rear tire when you hit your brakes to recreate the problem?"

 

Michael,

 

With all due respect, in a panic situation when you grab all the brake you can, who is thinking about unloading the rear tire? The bike has ABS and it is supposed to work as intended every time. Go to the 800 Riders Forum and you will see case after case of this issue exactly as David has described.

 

Please don't take my response the wrong way, there is nothing personal here.

 

Are you saying a potentially locked front wheel with the rear wheel in the air (or unloaded) is a better option in a panic situation? Define "panic situation." It sounds to me like a bike with or without ABS in the situation you described is in serious trouble--with the likely outcome being the same except how the rider felt about his/her brakes. I'm having trouble understanding how this one potential outlier situation takes precedence over all the other more probable situations where the ABS system is a definite benefit. I've read the F800 threads and it's the same stuff that's posted here every time the ABS vs. non-ABS topic pops up. A panic situation requires more riding skill than just grabbing all the brake a rider can. I'll maintain a rolling wheel provides more control than a locked wheel (on the street).

[NakedRider]

They've updated the thread on the 800 site.

 

It appears that, by design, the brakes release. The problem with the release is the distance. At 20MPH it is designed to release 7 - 8 feet!! That's the difference between hitting something and not. At 60MPH that would mean you have no brakes for over 40 feet!!! Not a good safety feature. I've disconnected the front sensor and I'm quite happy with the performance of the brakes with no ABS.

[Bonkorama]

ABS KICKS IN AT 20 mph??????

 

If anyone is able to get thier ABS to kick engage at such a low speed, i think it's time to make an appointment at thier dealer. Thats NOT normal IMO.

 

At 60 mph in my favorite huge parkinglot, grabbing as much brake as can, its difficult for me to get 1 pulse from them, and its only 8 feet or less, NOT 40 feet!!!

 

If its over rough terrain, its easier for the pulse to activate, which is normal activation.

 

Maybe there is a difference in the builds, 06's vs. 07s. I dont know.

Either way - if someone paid for ABS (not a cheap ticket item), if it were me, i'd definitely have them repaired, as they sound faulty to me.

[Herleman]

I'm kinda new here -- don't post much.

 

I ride an 800ST. I bought it specificaly because of the ABS. I still feel it was a good decision.

 

Having said that, I find that there is an issue with the ABS design. It will kick in whenever if finds a wheel unloading, and then it will take what seems like an eternity to reconnect the brakes. In the meantime the bike will travel 20 to 30 feet down the road. This can be a very real issue if one is approaching a busy intersection or coming up on a quickly stopped vehicle.

 

What happens is that if the system senses that a wheel is beginning to skid -- front or rear -- it will block the pressure in the system resulting in no brakes at all. The rider -- often by reflex will tighten the gip on the brakes so that when the pressure is unblocked, the wheel will lock and the cycle starts over. Or, if the rider has become accustomed to the issue, it will still take a bit to recover unless the thing that cause the wheel lock is on longer an issue.

 

Simply illustrated, one is approaching a stopping vehicle -- plenty of space to stop, etc, but, the surface has just a slight bit of sand by the rear wheel. Front wheel is fine, but the rear is approaching skid. The ABS system will release pressure on BOTH brakes and the result is that the rider has no brakes at all, and is still approaching the stopping vehicle with no alternative means of stopping the bike.

 

I've ridden Hondas with ABS and I've ridden a 1200RT with ABS. None exhibited this behaviour.

 

It is truly unsettling, and in the right circumstance could be dangerous at best.

 

The system mapping is in need of some attention from the Bosch folks. Eventually there will be litigation on the issue. Hopefully the litigation will not be from the next-of-kin of a deceased rider.

 

It is an issue folks, and it needs to be addressed.

[Ben_Ricci]

Could it be that some F800s are experiencing this problem as opposed to generalizing and saying they all do? I've ridden my wife's F800ST for several thousand miles and under all sorts of braking scenarios and I haven't noticed anything "flawed" with the ABS. Given my experience I can't honestly endorse the perspective the brakes are improperly designed, but I'll do my best to see if I can cause a fault under appropriate conditions.

[Bonkorama]

+1 Ben_Ricci, I tend to agree that not not every F800s(t) has the bad brake system, but of course who knows for sure. Mine have never reacted in any manner other than what I would consider *normal* operation.

 

I will try again today to create that condition. There is a railroad track nearby, and will use that as my test surface, its pretty slick and bumpy. Im sure I can time it so there wont be traffic nearby in case I end up on my behind. Lets hope not.

[Herleman]

Look for some bumps near a stop sign and hit the brakes hard. DO NOT DO IT IN OR NEAR A TURN OR WHEN LEANED OVER (as might happen if the rear wheel were to start slipping away braking into a turn) -- PLEASE.

 

If you find it, its not subtle. You will know right away.

 

I put several thousand miles on mine before experiencing it, and I can pretty well predict the surface that might cause it now, but there are still times that it catches me. I rolled completely through a controlled intersection once after hitting some oil droppings in the center of my lane. The wheel started to lock, and the bike rolled on. I squeezed hard, but nothing happened. I throttled up and blew through the intersection which was thankfully empty.

 

It is unnerving when it occurs. I have no idea whether it affects all of the 800 series. I know it affects mine, and I have talked with others with almost identical stories.

 

Please do not misunderstand. This is not a gripe with the 800 series or with BMW. I love my bike and I intend to keep it forever, but there is this one little bug that needs to be addressed. I am confident that eventually Bosch will do exactly that -- willingly, or otherwise.

 

Just be aware that it is there -- give yourself plenty of room to stop -- always, and keep a wary eye for an escape route should stopping become impossible.

[fisherman]

As I originally mentioned, IMO ABS should work perfectly everytime it is needed and not selectively from bike to bike or model to model. Why should it matter that it is the exception and not the norm. You know anybody that wants to own the exception?

 

The above not withstanding, do we think BMW would knowingly take on this kind of liabilty?

 

It's such a nice bike, I still may roll the dice and get one.

[Herleman]

By all means, get one. None of this should be interpreted to mean that the bike is not a good one. It has some little quirks that you will get used to. The ABS anomalies are perhaps the only one that is even remotely serious, and its possible that many, if not most, riders will never experience any difficulty whatsoever.

 

I do not think that BMW would knowingly take on an issue like this, but the system is manufactured for them by Bosch who, no doubt, built the system according to spec. It looks as if not all situations were properly anticipated.

 

It will be interesting to see if this issue remains, or if it is eventually resolved by some remapping from Bosch.

 

but please... buy the bike (buy a blue one if you want the absolute best).

[NakedRider]

I agree with several points here. 1) The F800 is a great bike. 2) ABS should be consistent. 3) Many riders haven't experienced ABS issues.

 

Depending on your skill level you can test this in your driveway. I have. Just grab enough brake and the front will release. Every time. Just make sure you are going straight.

 

I just disconnect the front sensor. I'm leaving it like that until there's a solution from BMW but quite frankly I'm not holding my breath since it's been reported and BMW's position is clear. To them, it's not a problem therefore it doesn't exist.

[Bonkorama]

I did my weekly (or almost weekly) "panic" braking excersise at my test facility (big open parkinbg lot in burbank near airport) again today after my Little Tajunga Canyonpalooza on my F800S.

 

Here are my results:

60 mph - 0 mph: Shortest possible stopping distance ( maybe width of 3-4 parking spaces); front brake NO abs pulsing, rear brake; several abs pulses.

 

times repeated; 5, last attempt from 70 mph.

Same results. Front Brake; no pulse, rear brake; several pulses.

 

The G-forces of the last attempt actually made me momentarily dizzy (1 or 2 seconds).

 

So in summary I submit, if one can enable thier front brake ABS easily (like in thier driveway) a trip to the dealer is nessecary.

ABS brakes that kick in at driveway speeds are as good as no brakes at all IMO.

* dealer time *

The life you save *will* be your own!

[NakedRider]

I did my weekly (or almost weekly) "panic" braking excersise at my test facility (big open parkinbg lot in burbank near airport) again today after my Little Tajunga Canyonpalooza on my F800S.

 

Here are my results:

60 mph - 0 mph: Shortest possible stopping distance ( maybe width of 3-4 parking spaces); front brake NO abs pulsing, rear brake; several abs pulses.

 

times repeated; 5, last attempt from 70 mph.

Same results. Front Brake; no pulse, rear brake; several pulses.

 

The G-forces of the last attempt actually made me momentarily dizzy (1 or 2 seconds).

 

So in summary I submit, if one can enable thier front brake ABS easily (like in thier driveway) a trip to the dealer is nessecary.

ABS brakes that kick in at driveway speeds are as good as no brakes at all IMO.

* dealer time *

The life you save *will* be your own!

 

You need to grab the front hard enough to kick it in. If that doesn't happen you're not grabbing hard enough. ALL ABS units on ANY bike can be activated. What's different about this bike is it doesn't pulse it just releases all together. Lock the front and you'll see. Trust me I'm not talking about normal stopping. You need to be aggressive enough to kick in the unit.

 

As far as Tujunga Canyon...I learned to ride up there. I'm envious of your location.

[Bonkorama]

Dude, on my canyon ride yesterday, i didnt see a SINGLE MOVING VEHICLE, once i past MIDDLERANCH. The entire canyon.

 

I had THE BEST ride. THE BEST.

 

But about the brakes, I on even non gravely surface, I can't get the front brake to pulse on stopping. The bike just stops. Over rail tracks, its different. But on normal surface - they work incredibly.

 

BTW, how did u disonnect your sensor? It doesnt send a fault code to the ABS?

[NakedRider]

Dude, on my canyon ride yesterday, i didnt see a SINGLE MOVING VEHICLE, once i past MIDDLERANCH. The entire canyon.

 

I had THE BEST ride. THE BEST.

 

But about the brakes, I on even non gravely surface, I can't get the front brake to pulse on stopping. The bike just stops. Over rail tracks, its different. But on normal surface - they work incredibly.

 

BTW, how did u disonnect your sensor? It doesnt send a fault code to the ABS?

 

Sounds like an AWESOME ride.

 

While riding over the railroad tracks and the ABS activates does it pulse or release? If it just lets go and you surge forward that's the complaint everyone has.

 

If you grab enough front brake one of two things will happen. Either you'll lock the front wheel or your ABS will kick in. It has to be one or the other or you're not braking hard enough. Keep in mind I consider this to be very dangerous. Not recommended for the faint of heart. It's an excellent way to dump your bike.

 

If the ABS kicks in it will either pulse (like you would expect from a normal unit) or it will release and you will shoot forward. If it shoots forward...well you'll understand the complaint.

 

Some of the guys in England are replicating this by going over a specific set of tracks. It's consistent.

 

To disconnect the front ABS just take off the strip on the middle of the tank and you'll see the battery with another wire on the top like this:

 

 

Just disconnect the plug:

 

 

...and you're done. I taped both ends to keep moisture out and I put a black piece of tape over the ABS warning light.

 

I'm not worried about the fault. I told the dealer what I had done and they were OK with it.