types of oil

[simonpeter]

I have been using silkolene semi-synthetic oil in my 1100 RTP. This is quite an expensive oil. could i use the same grade of oil that has been bottled up for car use (e.g.the general motors oil i use in the SAAB) with peace of mind? I have heard several conflicting opinions - "never use car oil in a bike" and "it doesnt matter". Any light shed on the subject would be good. Safe riding.

[Linz]

The BMW has a dry clutch. If the oil meets the standard set by BMW or exceeds it, it's OK to use.

I use car oil in mine with no apparent issues.

 

Linz

[Boffin]

As Linz says, it is the clutch which is the deciding factor here. Most motorcycles use a 'Wet' clutch, that is a multi-plate clutch sat in a bath of engine oil. Modern car oils have additives which can cause wet clutches to slip under power. The clutch in your bike is a 'Dry' clutch, built on the same pattern as car clutches, it is a single plate clutch in air between the engine and gearbox. As such it matters not one whit to the clutch what oil you use.

 

Now, the 'correct' oil to use is often seen as a matter of religion

There are however, some basic rules.

1. Always use an oil to the specification given in the owners handbook.

2. Never show the engine the label on the oil can (The Shovelstroke Ed rule)

 

I have seen it written that BMW reccomend using oil with a high ZDDP content and for that reason I use Shell Helix diesel oil in my RT. The oil meets the spec called for by BMW, it has higher levels of ZDDP than spark-ignition oils and it is cheaper than bike oils.

 

Andy

[RFW]

Yet another oil thread.

 

Motorcycle engines are more highly stressed than most car engines. This is one reason why BMW has warned against the latest car oils that have steadily reduced their content of the extreme pressure additive ZDDP, incorrectly claiming that car oils do not have enough "zinc" and/or "phosphorous". While the basic claim is correct, the reference to zinc and phosphorous is about as silly as saying a person that does not drink enough water, does not have enough hydrogen and oxygen.

 

BMW has stated that while flogging their own oil, an acceptable oil is a "brand name type HD oil". That means either a motorcycle specific oil ($) or a so-called "diesel oil" such as Shell Rotella and Rotella-T, or Chevron Delo 400. Diesel oils are made to order for our bikes. They contain elevated amounts of ZDDP (which satifies BMW), and they are made from generally better feedstock than typical car oils, so tend not to lose their viscosity as much over time as many car oils do. They also contain no friction modifiers, so clutch slippage (in a wet clutch bike) is not an issue.

 

As for "synthetic versus dino", there is a lot of BS flying around. Many of the supposed benefits of "synthetic" oils are in the mind of the user. "Synthetic" oils are NOT slipperier than other oils. In fact, most of the so-called synthetics on the market are not even truly synthetic; they are derived from super-refined Group III Dino feedstock. The main benefit of a true synthetic (or a Group III derived dino oil for that matter) is vastly reduced paraffin content, and reduced tendency to thin out at higher temperatures without the need for large amounts of Viscosity Index improvers that tend to break down over time.

 

So if you want an excellent oil that conforms to BMW's requirements and you do not want to be ripped off, you cannot do better than using Rotella or Delo 400.

 

But car oils? Well, I figure that BMW knows more about their bikes than any of us here ever will, and if they say any car oil that is later than SH (such as the latest SL oils are) is NOT acceptable, then why argue?

[Boffin]

Bearing in mind that the UK and US oil markets are somewhat different, in particualr what you can and cannot call synthetic. Shell Rotella is sold in the UK as Shell Helix (though to slightly different specs....)

 

Other than that, what Bob said.

 

Andy

[realshelby]

BMW has stated that while flogging their own oil, an acceptable oil is a "brand name type HD oil". That means either a motorcycle specific oil ($) or a so-called "diesel oil" such as Shell Rotella and Rotella-T, or Chevron Delo 400. Diesel oils are made to order for our bikes. They contain elevated amounts of ZDDP (which satifies BMW), and they are made from generally better feedstock than typical car oils, so tend not to lose their viscosity as much over time as many car oils do.

 

While the "diesel" oils may indeed be great for the BMW Oilheads beware that these oils are changing also. I recently checked the shelves of a local Auto Zone to see what kind of diesel oil was in stock. Most of what they had, including the brands listed in this thread, were CJ-4 spec. These have REDUCED amounts of ZDDP. Or Zinc and other good stuff as us commoners like to call it! I have not yet seen how these oils compare to "car" oils in the anti-wear chemistry. It will be interesting to find out. BTW, I was checking availability to see if the CJ-4 was readily available. It is the oil Ford, GM, Dodge require in their new 2008 diesel engines.

[notacop]

Interesting palaver about the Diesel juice. informative and yet lacking the religious fervor of other similar discussions. Do it matter when you change oil every 3Kmiles and oil/filter at the 6K mile mark? I've been using good Ol' Castrol 20-50 since 1983 when I got may first, still have, Beemer. Use Honda and Kawi oil now and Castrol depending on which store I hit first at oil time.

116000 miles 160+psi in the chambers, must be working.

Use what makes you pocket book happy.

[jrlars]

Hi all. First time poster here. I thought I might add something on the diesel oils. On our farm we use quite a bit of diesel oil in our trucks and tractors. Our oil supplier says the diesel oils are changing and has made it very clear to not use the new formulations in any gas engine with a catalytic converter. Don't remember the specifics, just the warning. This guy does know his products pretty well.

[RFW]

While the "diesel" oils may indeed be great for the BMW Oilheads beware that these oils are changing also. I recently checked the shelves of a local Auto Zone to see what kind of diesel oil was in stock. Most of what they had, including the brands listed in this thread, were CJ-4 spec. These have REDUCED amounts of ZDDP.

My comments were takem from a conversation I had with a Chevron oils chemist. While all oils are seeing their ZDDP content being reduced, the so-called Diesel oils STILL (according to the chemist guy) have more of the stuff than car oils do. Besides, they (and not any "car oil") are what is called a type-HD oil, which BMW has stated as being an excellent oil choice.

[RFW]

Hi all. First time poster here. I thought I might add something on the diesel oils. On our farm we use quite a bit of diesel oil in our trucks and tractors. Our oil supplier says the diesel oils are changing and has made it very clear to not use the new formulations in any gas engine with a catalytic converter. Don't remember the specifics, just the warning. This guy does know his products pretty well.

He is right that they are changing, but totally wrong that the "change" makes them unsuitable for use in non-diesel motors.

 

The change is the REDUCTION of ZDDP, in order to IMPROVE catalyst life! The full name of ZDDP is Zinc Dialkyl Dithiophosphate, and if your motor burns some oil, the phosphorous in ZDDP can cause catalyst poisoning. Car oils after API SH, have been undergoing a reduction in ZDDP to reduce this problem. Diesel oils also have been seeing gradually reduced ZDDP content. BUT, diesel oils started out with higher ZDDP content and they still have more of the stuff than type SL car oils.

 

It is worth noting that Shell, on their Rotella site, recommends the use of their Rotella "Diesel oil" for use in both cars and in particular, in motorcycles.

[Bud]

Now that the oil question has been answered, do you want a recommendation on what brand of filter to use?

[rob1100r]

If I read right, the 'New' red cap Mobil 1 15W/50 has been 'reintroduced' with added levels of 'ZDDP' (this according to their website)..Good and realatively cheap synthetic, though it's been said it is now a group 3 dino and not really fully synthetic...Still good stuff though

[SAAB93driver]

A potential issue with Diesel oil like Rotella and Delo is that 15W-40 is not heavy enough for most summer temps according to BMW's own viscosity chart in the owner's manual (at least of the 3 oilheads I have owned).

[Boffin]

A potential issue with Diesel oil like Rotella and Delo is that 15W-40 is not heavy enough for most summer temps according to BMW's own viscosity chart in the owner's manual (at least of the 3 oilheads I have owned).

 

More than heavy enough for UK summer temps - the OP is a Brit.

 

Andy

[Mr. Frank]

Here is the poop from the Mobil I website:

 

"Why are you reintroducing Mobil 1 15W-50? Have there been any changes to the formulation, or is it identical to the previous product?

Mobil 1 15W-50 is being reintroduced based on popular demand. Mobil 1 15W-50 provides higher viscosity, designed to provide extra protection for performance vehicles and vehicles that operate in severe service, such as towing, hauling and racing. Additionally, Mobil 1 15W-50 contains higher levels of anti-wear (ZDDP or Zinc DialkylDithioPhosphate) that may be required for certain racing applications and camshaft designs. This is a new Mobil 1 15W-50 formulation and is not the same as the product that was marketed a few years ago."

 

It sounds like it would be good for motorcycles again.

[Tipover_Bob]

You all know, oil is oil, a, or something like that. But don't you sometimes believe you are getting a sales pitch. Why is it so important to use a multi viscosity oil? What is a multi viscosity oil?

 

Generaly, I believe a multi viscosity oil is a thinner oil with some viscosity increasers that are essentially coiled chain molecules that stretch out when they get hot. These things are not lubricants. The advantage of this type of oil is that the oil is thinner when it is cold and thicker (maintains viscosity) when it is hotter because the coils unwind. This property should allow a vehicle lubed by a multi viscosity oil to function better in differeing conditions including start up without having to change oil to change viscosity.

 

So, isn't this great? I contend that it is not so great. A multi viscosity oil would be made up of thinner oils so it could leak where a single (heavier) viscosity oil would not. Also, what is the deal with a 75W140 weight oil. Does that mean it acts like a 75 wt oil when it is cold and a 140 wt oil when it is hot? Yes, except, the actual lubrication capacity of the 140 weight part of the oil is measured as a viscosity. The actual lubricant actions during the extreme pressure of the gears and the bearings is not being measured or compared directly to a single weight (90w) oil. In other words, despite the listed viscosities, you really don't know what is happening in a multi viscosity oil, you are assuming you know what you are getting. Sure, the wear results have been pretty good with these oils. But, I contend the actual lubrication is a question mark biased by the sales pitch of the oil, bike, car makers wanting to get the best mileage. In other words, the advertising for the best oil is biased.

 

Everyone knows that bearings, like in our final drives, can be designed with an almost infinite life. Why would BMW build their final drives so they fail? I contend that, besides individual examples of abuse, many of us are just using the wrong oil.

 

That is why I have been sold on using a straight 90 wt oil in the temperature conditions recommended by BMW. I have concerns about the actual lubrication of the bearings and the gears. I don't want to use a 75 wt oil when I want a 90 wt (at the gears and bearings) and I don't want to lubricate with a polymer (at the gears and bearings) when I don't have any idea what that polymer is doing and I don't care about gas mileage.

Tipover Bob

[philbytx]

Given British weather, the poor bugger should simply buy winter weight oils

[Bud]

Given British weather, the poor bugger should simply buy winter weight oils

 

OUCH

[philbytx]

Rob,

To clear up any confusion.

The new formula "Regular" Mobil1 15w50 is in a silver bottle that has a silver cap and a label with a red background for the 15w50.

 

Mobil1 Extended mileage is in a silver bottle with a GOLD cap with a green background for the 15w50.

 

Just picked up two of the new formula 15w50 Mobil1 5qts at a Wallymart

[RFW]

A multi viscosity oil would be made up of thinner oils so it could leak where a single (heavier) viscosity oil would not.

The logic here is flawed. All that matters for leakage is the actual viscosity of the final product.

 

Everyone knows that bearings, like in our final drives, can be designed with an almost infinite life. Why would BMW build their final drives so they fail? I contend that, besides individual examples of abuse, many of us are just using the wrong oil.

Unfortunatley, that is a flawed argument. Ball and roller bearings do NOT use oil for lubrication, because in a bearing, no surfaces slide against each other. Bearings use oil for localized cooling, and to help prevent brinelling. Oil viscosity in a ball or roller bearing is nearly irrelivant.

 

In fact, many of the bearing failures in BMW rear drives are caused by the bearing ball retainers fracturing, which has nothing to do with oil at all. Brinelling is sometimes the cause of other failures, but that cannot possibly be blamed on oil viscosity, but rather, often on incorrect preload which is very difficult to accurately set on BMW rear drives. It is worth noting that the latest rear drives (the ones with the big hole down the center) are designed so no preload is required, in an attempt to eliminate bearing failure.

 

I have concerns about the actual lubrication of the bearings and the gears.

With respect, you need to do a little research on lubrication principles of ball/roller bearings. As I mentioned, these bearings have no need to be "lubricated" because the balls or roller have a pure rolling motion, they do not slide along their races. Oil is used only for cooling and to help prevent brinelling as stated above. Where oil become more critical is in the lubrication of the gears themseves, where some sliding motion always occurs between gear teeth, but in BMW rear drives, actual gear failure is nearly unknown.

[rob1100r]

Rob,

To clear up any confusion.

The new formula "Regular" Mobil1 15w50 is in a silver bottle that has a silver cap and a label with a red background for the 15w50.

 

 

 

Mobil1 Extended mileage is in a silver bottle with a GOLD cap with a green background for the 15w50.

 

Just picked up two of the new formula 15w50 Mobil1 5qts at a Wallymart

 

 

Yea, just got a 5 Qt container from there myself (yup the Red label). Just shy of $20.00 on sale!

[Tipover_Bob]

RFW:

You might want to check out this site by Timkin.

http://www.timken.com/products/bearings/techtips/tip8.asp

 

Tipover Bob

[ShovelStrokeEd]

The application is meaningless, Bob, it is for a tapered roller bearing used in a wheel bearing application. Well, I would guess not entirely meaningless as there is a tapered bearing within the final drive and it does turn at "wheel" speeds. I have never heard of one failing in our BMW final drives though.

 

However, unless we are talking big trucks, oil lubrication is almost never used on these bearings. Big trucks do use oil lube but, they also have a reservoir that holds nearly a quart of the stuff.

 

A final small point, the OP is talking about engine oil.

[RFW]

RFW:

You might want to check out this site by Timkin.

http://www.timken.com/products/bearings/techtips/tip8.asp

Problem is that this does not address the basic principles I was addressing. It only recommends what are good lubricants in this specific application (tapered roller wheel bearings in trucks). My post attempted to address the incorrect notion that rear drive ball bearing failure in BMW bikes has anything at all to do with the type of oil used. In fact, the oils they recommend are essentially what BMW is recommending (a typical GL5 oil) as well as engine oil. Clearly with these extremely different oil types, as well as grease being recommended, the exact lubrication types are not terribly important so long as there is an ample amount of it. Upon reflection, this makes sense since as stataed earlier, oil or grease does not serve any actual lubrication function in a ball/roller bearing since there is nothing in these types of bearings that requires lubrication in the normal sense (balls and rollers ROLL, they do not slide!).