Oh, Gawd, a dead RTP

[notacop]

As the little spider/man in the web said, Help me, Help me...

Ok so the Bike dies in the garage, I'm lucky, I'm at home. Check the spark, no spark. Check the plug, very dry so no fuel. Got the copy of Dana Hager write up for checking the dreaded Hall sensors. The little LED goes on and off when the crank is turned. It seems that the sensors are getting some sense up to the plug to the Motronics.

The fuses seem OK and the relays....well Bill Allen should have some expertise there.

I've got access to a couple other Motronics to test. 1 from an S and the other from a RS. Are there any differences in controls? This is an RTP, is it the Bastid child or a real family member?

I did check the compression, it's 160+ so that's really good on an engine with 116000 miles.

Your valued comments on what to did is solicited. I do intend to pull each and every plug and connector that seems to be in the path of the signal flow including ripping the dash open to get at them. This is not so much as seek and destroy but rather tactical nucular renewal!

Yours in avoiding the dealer...Notacop

[KER]

do you hear the fuel pump turn on?

[notacop]

Oh yah,sure you betcha, little pumpy noises. Put a new filter in it after the death crawled on it. Thought it was starvation of gas but found the no spark after it wouldn't still start.

Seems to me that since I have no spark or fuel it's the Motronic since the hall dudes test out positively.

Then again it's electrical and the ghost of Tesla and high voltage may be playing havoc!

I really am looking for any input and do appreciate your response.

I hate driving the Trooper to work. I can't lane split and it takes forever to get to work and I'm growing more impatient with my co-commuters more each day.

[louisvillebob]

Nota:

Have spent more than enough time chasing electrical gremlins only to find poor connections/corrosion rather than black box malfunction. Try the simple and cheap first. While yer chasing gremlins and unplugging/replugging, apply a dab of dielectric grease to each connection. Also, it's a simple thing to (carefully) remove an injector, crank the engine and observe for a spray pattern. No spray pattern, no start. Careful here--yer spraying atomized gasoline. This'll give u more information. Next time u replace the juel filter, consider the external fuel filter modification. Why in the world should a fuel filter be in the gas tank?

 

Good luck. Ride carefully when ya lane split.

[tobyzusa]

Why in the world should a fuel filter be in the gas tank?

 

If you are not confident in your fuel system design - it is under pressure - then you might stick it inside the gas tank for added safety.

[OlGeezer]

I know you don't want to hear this, but....

First remove the relays and test each one. I've even had them test O.K., still replaced it and it worked. I don't know if the 1100 is similar to the 1150 in this regard, but I have three relays with the numbers ending in 412. One is the load relief relay and the other is the lighting relay. Try new ones for both of these. If nothing else, pull them all out, wait for a bit, then put them back in. Then reset the motronics.

 

Good luck.

[notacop]

Yo' Wild Bill, you said "reset the Motronics"! Is that remove the ground on the battery? I did that. Seems I need to become entirely too familiar with the manual.

External filter. It's a really good Idea. I've seen some installations. To the fearful, it's 42 PSI and the other connections external to the tank seem to work just fine, so should those little BMW clamps poght to not be a concern.

it's just where, the behind the cylinder seems a bit too warm for me. The under the seat spot is ideal for ease and convenience.

Lemme get this beast running first!

Bill, both Mike and Tom have vulture circling donor bikes to borrow tidbits from. Thanks for the idea.

[OlGeezer]

Yo' Wild Bill, you said "reset the Motronics"! Is that remove the ground on the battery? I did that. Seems I need to become entirely too familiar with the manual.

External filter. It's a really good Idea. I've seen some installations. To the fearful, it's 42 PSI and the other connections external to the tank seem to work just fine, so should those little BMW clamps poght to not be a concern.

it's just where, the behind the cylinder seems a bit too warm for me. The under the seat spot is ideal for ease and convenience.

Lemme get this beast running first!

Bill, both Mike and Tom have vulture circling donor bikes to borrow tidbits from. Thanks for the idea.

 

Pull out the motronics relay, plug it bag in, turn the key to power on the system only, turn the throttle wide open three times (like clicking heels) then turn it off.

 

From my reading (a lot here) and not from personal experience, I believe the 1100s had more problems with the HES than the 1150s (essentially non existent). However, a topic that has not received the attention it deserves IMO are the tightly clamped wiring harnesses. My harness going to the ignition switch was a culprit and it was really hard to detect. A fellow club member (Jim Bud) started feeling along the harness and felt a knot below the shrink wrap. Sure enough, when I cut it open, there was a break in the wire. There were several broken and the hot wire was actually sparking over. According to the marks on the wiring, this has been going on for some time.

 

Just curious, how well was your fuel gage working before failure? This was one of the clues that I had. Of course, I didn't recognize it until after I repaired the wiring harness. After replacing it, my fuel gage worked perfectly (stayed full and slowly went down like you would expect). I don't know about yours, but my harness runs from the ignition switch to a point on the left hand side of the fairing. You might be able to probe each wire to test for continuity. Oh, I almost forgot the important part. Do you know where the wire failed? Right at a zip tie!

 

FYI, my fuel filter is under the seat, resting comfortably on the air filter.

[OlGeezer]

Here is the saga of my ignition wire woes. Maybe this will help.

 

Of course, here is a link to all my woes. Man, 2007 has been a tough year. It's hard to imagine I've managed to squeeze in 28k miles.

[notacop]

Bill, I didn't have any weird symptoms from the RID. it just crapped as I backed the bike out of the garage. Got home from Deming no problem and no unususl activity on the dash. Fuel gauge has been dependable in it's operation. Even after I refiltered it it read 1 bar as before the filter.

When I checked the HES i put a 12volt Diode in line with the HES sensor and rotated the rear tire to turn over the engine, Did it again on the other sensor. Got a LED on with each rotation of the crank. Thanks EBBO site.

So I haven't had a chance to go out and 'ring out' all the wires. Relays et al are next.

I did see a really nice R1150 for sale on the site, New lamps for old...

Hey, I just reread your post of the broken wires. Had the same problem on my '73 CB500 Honda. Usta blow a fuse on the way home at night. Finally disected the wiring and found the same thing. Too bad you didn't picture where the wire loom in place. I'll do more search and destroy tomorrow after the sun comes up!

[OlGeezer]

Bill, I didn't have any weird symptoms from the RID. it just crapped as I backed the bike out of the garage. Got home from Deming no problem and no unususl activity on the dash. Fuel gauge has been dependable in it's operation. Even after I refiltered it it read 1 bar as before the filter.

When I checked the HES i put a 12volt Diode in line with the HES sensor and rotated the rear tire to turn over the engine, Did it again on the other sensor. Got a LED on with each rotation of the crank. Thanks EBBO site.

So I haven't had a chance to go out and 'ring out' all the wires. Relays et al are next.

I did see a really nice R1150 for sale on the site, New lamps for old...

Hey, I just reread your post of the broken wires. Had the same problem on my '73 CB500 Honda. Usta blow a fuse on the way home at night. Finally disected the wiring and found the same thing. Too bad you didn't picture where the wire loom in place. I'll do more search and destroy tomorrow after the sun comes up!

 

It's the wiring harness coming out of the ignition switch.

 

Can you list the electrical things that work and the things that don't?

[notacop]

Seems like all the stuff works. 'Cept the sparky and fuel. I was just out trying to get the cable to the dash from the handlebar unplugged. Dang the engineer that designed these things. Got a blood blister now and the plug is still plugged in.

With the ignit on the RID responds to the side stand, It's got a green Neut lite and the RID goes on and off with the kill switch. Just like a normal operating system.

It's just a matter of spending the time tracing all the lines back though the system. And stealing parts off Tom and Mikes bikes.

[OlGeezer]

Seems like all the stuff works. 'Cept the sparky and fuel. I was just out trying to get the cable to the dash from the handlebar unplugged. Dang the engineer that designed these things. Got a blood blister now and the plug is still plugged in.

With the ignit on the RID responds to the side stand, It's got a green Neut lite and the RID goes on and off with the kill switch. Just like a normal operating system.

It's just a matter of spending the time tracing all the lines back though the system. And stealing parts off Tom and Mikes bikes.

 

On mine, there is a little set screw on the right hand side. It's painted red. YMMV. The harness comes out much easier when that screw is removed.

I can probably take a pic if you need it. Let me know.

 

According to David Diaz, GM at Seaver's, he sells on average one ignition switch per month. I was fortunate that my problem was in the harness. The ignition switch is harder to remove (two one way screws - requires BMW special tool). David says most of the ignition switches he sells are for RTPs. Hmmmm....

[OlGeezer]

Seems like all the stuff works. 'Cept the sparky and fuel.

 

You originally said your fuel pump worked. Is that no longer true or is that intermittent.

 

Here's something really dumb to try. If your fuel pump once worked and now doesn't, turn on your ignitin and move the handlebars left to right and back again.

[KER]

Seems like all the stuff works. 'Cept the sparky and fuel.

 

You originally said your fuel pump worked. Is that no longer true or is that intermittent.

 

Here's something really dumb to try. If your fuel pump once worked and now doesn't, turn on your ignitin and move the handlebars left to right and back again.

 

 

kickstand kill switch broken.........

[SWB]

Seems like all the stuff works. 'Cept the sparky and fuel.

 

You originally said your fuel pump worked. Is that no longer true or is that intermittent.

 

Here's something really dumb to try. If your fuel pump once worked and now doesn't, turn on your ignitin and move the handlebars left to right and back again.

 

 

kickstand kill switch broken.........

 

Only if the starter won't turn over ....

 

I've read this thread, and I didn't hear where you tested the resistance on the ignition coil. If it's cranking and not producing spark, that would be the first thing I'd check. Particularly so, if BOTH plug wires produce no spark. As I understand it, the link goes from spark plugs to plug wires to ignition coil, and then to the motronic and/or HAL (not sure of the order there; I think the HAL tells the motronic each time the crank is at the correct position to fire the cylinder, and the motronic sends a signal to the ignition coil).

 

Anyway, without pulling out a manual, that's my best guess. (I'm sure folks here will chip in and correct the record.)

[Kirbo40]

I went through the HE sensor problem on a '98 RT. It died in the rain so I replaced the sensors only. Went on for about 8 months no problem. Then same thing, but the test rig showed both sensors good. But would not start. BMWMick I think it was told me it was probably the wires going to the sensors as I had not replaced them before. He sent me info on where to buy higher temp wires. I got the new $325 sensor from BMW & she fired right up.I got the wire, but never got around to r&r ing the old one before I traded up to the 1200RT. One other thing if battery voltage gets a little low the bike will crank & everything works but the MO says no sparky & no fuel.

[Ken H.]

Pull out the motronics relay, plug it bag in, turn the key to power on the system only, turn the throttle wide open three times (like clicking heels) then turn it off.

This is applicable to the 1150 and 1200 series, not the 1100s.

[Ken H.]

kickstand kill switch broken.........

OP said that the RID responds to side stand switch motion.

[Ken H.]

I think there are several likely possibilities here; the Motronic relay would be high on my list. I don't think this is an ignition switch wiring issue because you can hear the fuel pump initialize when the key is turned on and its on the same circuit from the ignition switch as the Motronic.

 

Although you did a static test of the HES's, I'm still suspicious. I have the ability to test the HES's bench spinning at running RPM on a scope, but I'm here and you're there. (Unless you'd want to send the HES to me for testing?)

 

Try this - Pull the plugs so the engine is easy to rotate smoothly then rotate it. Do you hear the fuel pump start up again with each rotation?

 

Lack of a fuel spray (you pulled an injector and tried to spray a piece of dark paper yes?) AND lack of spark likely rules out ignition coil issues.

[OlGeezer]

Pull out the motronics relay, plug it bag in, turn the key to power on the system only, turn the throttle wide open three times (like clicking heels) then turn it off.

This is applicable to the 1150 and 1200 series, not the 1100s.

 

Thanks for the clarification. Sooo...how do your reset the motronics on an 1100?

[bmwmick]

Pull out the motronics relay, plug it bag in, turn the key to power on the system only, turn the throttle wide open three times (like clicking heels) then turn it off.

This is applicable to the 1150 and 1200 series, not the 1100s.

 

Thanks for the clarification. Sooo...how do your reset the motronics on an 1100?

 

Remove power for 30 seconds or so and it's reset as much as possible.

 

Mick

[notacop]

If this POS keeps causing me to bust my knuckles and more blood blisters it will be with a 4 lb sledge!

Checked the coil. .4 on the ptimary, 9.3 on the seconday, not exactly what the book has but close when dealing with coils, it seems to be there.

Oh, that key switch wire seems to be even more hidden up in the fairing than the rt handlebar switch. That rang out ok.

What Shakespeare said about lawyers, next is engineers.

I swapped the #4-5 relays, the Motronic, still no spark. I may antagonize Mr Bacon for his Motronic for a test. But since the Rig is operational and I have a spare car I can work on the POS at my leasiure.

[bmwmick]

Bill, I didn't have any weird symptoms from the RID. it just crapped as I backed the bike out of the garage. Got home from Deming no problem

 

I didn't see you in Deming. I always carry one of my rebuilt units with me just in case someone needs one on the road.

 

When I checked the HES i put a 12volt Diode in line with the HES sensor and rotated the rear tire to turn over the engine, Did it again on the other sensor. Got a LED on with each rotation of the crank.

 

Did you ensure that there were no signal wires shorted together in the HES harness? This doesn't sound EXACTLY like a HES failure but it still could be. How do you know you don't have fuel? Did you pull an injector and watch for a spray? Pull the tank and measure the coil too. 0.5 Ohms on the primary and 7.5K Ohms on the secondary would be good.

 

As for swapping Motronics units, the R1100RS will work but the R1100S will NOT.

 

Mick

[OlGeezer]

What Shakespeare said about lawyers, next is engineers.

 

Are we having fun yet?

[notacop]

PM's aside, I finally went out to the garage to look at the cadaver setting on the center stand. Thought I'd check the spark again since I've wiggled wires and replugged plugs. Zowie, nice big spark. So now I gots to install the tank again and see if it will start. Probably will but the sickening part is I don't know what I did to get the spark.

Could be the gremlin to come back on the road and bite me again. I hate when that happens.

 

Do the dealers have quick connect fittings for the fuel line or do folks go to NAPA. Sure'd make R&R of the tank easier.

[OlGeezer]

PM's aside, I finally went out to the garage to look at the cadaver setting on the center stand. Thought I'd check the spark again since I've wiggled wires and replugged plugs. Zowie, nice big spark. So now I gots to install the tank again and see if it will start. Probably will but the sickening part is I don't know what I did to get the spark.

Could be the gremlin to come back on the road and bite me again. I hate when that happens.

 

Do the dealers have quick connect fittings for the fuel line or do folks go to NAPA. Sure'd make R&R of the tank easier.

 

Hmmm... are you SURE it's not the HES?

[tallman]

PM's aside, I finally went out to the garage to look at the cadaver setting on the center stand. Thought I'd check the spark again since I've wiggled wires and replugged plugs. Zowie, nice big spark. So now I gots to install the tank again and see if it will start. Probably will but the sickening part is I don't know what I did to get the spark.

Could be the gremlin to come back on the road and bite me again. I hate when that happens.

 

Do the dealers have quick connect fittings for the fuel line or do folks go to NAPA. Sure'd make R&R of the tank easier.

 

Hmmm... are you SURE it's not the HES?

[notacop]

Well, I can't be sure of the HES cus it didn't go sparky until after I swapped the relays,Motronic/fuel pump.

So yes it could be if they hate me. No if it were some other loose connection or dirty contact on the relay which since it's been disturbed is now clean.

It did start and I swapped the relays back to original position, still worked.

Now I gotta put all the tupperware back.Or I can play road warrior and have the ugliest RT on the hwy.

At least it seems to work.

[USAF1]

This sounds frighteningly like what happened to my RT a few years back.....don't think I've ever heard of anything even close since. I swapped out a lot of stuff....including the ignition switch wiring....kill button....HES....shorted out the clutch switch AND the side stand switch....before swapping the fuses on the motronics. Turns out that the fuse had a crack in it. Best o'luck.........

 

Pat

[OlGeezer]

This sounds frighteningly like what happened to my RT a few years back.....don't think I've ever heard of anything even close since. I swapped out a lot of stuff....including the ignition switch wiring....kill button....HES....shorted out the clutch switch AND the side stand switch....before swapping the fuses on the motronics. Turns out that the fuse had a crack in it. Best o'luck.........

 

Pat

 

That happened to me in February, a month after discovering a short in my ignition wiring. It's been a heck of a year...

[notacop]

Wild Geezer, I think I got it. I stole a HES from Mike Bacon's bike and mine started ok. Seems ok now.

I had done some testing of the original on the bench and it seems fine but it don't workee on the bike.

So HES 1 and me 0.

Oh, and a Merry Bah Hum Bug to all!

[OlGeezer]

Wild Geezer, I think I got it. I stole a HES from Mike Bacon's bike and mine started ok. Seems ok now.

I had done some testing of the original on the bench and it seems fine but it don't workee on the bike.

So HES 1 and me 0.

Oh, and a Merry Bah Hum Bug to all!

 

Hooray!!!!

[louisvillebob]

Nota:

 

Check some back issues of BMWON. I think there was an article on rebuilding HESs. I think it's esentially replacing heat-cracked wires and renewing corroded connections. Save $.

Re: quick disconnects: try Tucker Rocky. Am not sure what their pressure rating is.

 

Ride safe.

 

Bob

[OlGeezer]

Re: quick disconnects: try Tucker Rocky. Am not sure what their pressure rating is.

 

Ride safe.

Bob

 

I've got the quick connects solved. See this.

[notacop]

LouBob, I saw that link on the wires and got an email from a fellow in England about it. Seems fair to suspect the wiring. Very strange in the bench work though that it just seem to prove it self good. On with the Disection. There is a Electronics store near by that I should be able to get good thermal wires. Practice up on my soldering skills and salvage this plate.

Oh and those QD's I think anything with a 50PSI rating would be sufficient for the 42 that the book says the bike makes.