MP3 Ignorance

[Jones]

I'm looking into music for motorcycle riding but I have come upon a small problem. I'm completely ignorant when it comes to mp3 players, Ipods...whatever.

 

Here is the set-up. I have managed to burn (or is it rip?) every CD I own onto my hard-drive using Windows media player. A few were burned as WMA files but then I reset the program to burn as mp3 files because it sounded cool. I have a hell of a lot of music recorded (100GB of mostly Blues and Jazz on an external drive.)

 

I read that the Ipod uses its own format. Is that true? No good for all of my mp3s? Microsoft Zune looks cool, will that do the trick?

 

The ability to receive FM radio would be good. I really have no need for video or an up-link to the Intl. Space Station, I just want music. However, those features seem to be a standard so I will take what I can get. Downloading music from the internet is not an important thing.

 

What is a high quality mp3 compatible player with decent capacity?

 

I apologize for my ignorance. I'm old, and YES, I STILL HAVE A TURNTABLE.

 

Thanks for your help.

[TracerBullet]

As one who also has a turntable....

I have a mp3 player and frankly I do not listen to it very much. I find the sound quality of mp3's to be marginal at best. (JMHO)

I could not stand the decrease in quality so I decided to go with satellite radio.

I am sure others will disagree but to me the difference between mp3 and satellite is the difference between a boom box and your home stereo

[jfremder]

A 5th generation iPod will handle all your mp3 files with room to spare. The 160 gig version is about $300. A set of etymotic earbuds, and a griffin airclick remote and you're good to go. www.provantage.com has some good prices. The itunes application is available for free from www.apple.com It will move your .mp3's to the iPod and help to keep them organized.

[BMKrider]

As one who also has a turntable....

I have a mp3 player and frankly I do not listen to it very much. I find the sound quality of mp3's to be marginal at best. (JMHO)

I could not stand the decrease in quality so I decided to go with satellite radio.

I am sure others will disagree but to me the difference between mp3 and satellite is the difference between a boom box and your home stereo

 

You must far better hearing than me to be able to detect this level of sound quality when riding a motorcycle at 50mph+ even through in-ear speakers?

 

FWIW I use an iPod Nano linked through to my Autocom system with good results. I don't expect or need hi fi quality when riding my bike. I also link the Nano to the iJet remote for control over volume etc when riding.

[smiller]

The should be no detectable decrease in quality when using compressed formats at moderate bitrates and above. Extensive amounts of blind testing has been performed and very few listeners can resolve the copy from the source under these conditions, even using very good equipment. Early (many years ago) iterations of MP3 encoding software has some issues but modern encoders produce results that are for all intents and purposes transparent to the user.

 

At medium-to-high bitrates the various compressed formats (MP3, AAC, WMA, etc.) are pretty much indistinguishable from one another so it mostly depends on your preference. MP3 is a good format choice because it is the only one that enjoys virtually universal support on all platforms and players, meaning that you'll never have to re-encode your library if you change brands.

 

Lastly, what do I mean by 'medium to high' bitrates? Technically, a variable-bitrate file at 192 kbps or above (which has become pretty much the standard), but don't worry about the techy terms, just set the encoding quality to medium or high quality and you will be fine. In fact even 128 kbps can sound very good these days using the better encoders. If you want a reference of what truly bad overly-compressed music sounds like just listen to satellite radio...

 

With regard to players, there are many good ones but if you want very high capacity the iPod Classic is one of the few left on the market, with a choice of 80 or 160gb, and the 2nd gen Zune will have an 80gb unit. Creative players are also good but they seem to have dropped hard drive players from their line. Unfortunately high-capacity players seem to be a dying breed as most manufacturers are moving over to flash (solid state memory) players which still have relatively low capacity (8-16 gb max., although of course that will grow in time.)

[hopz]

yo, jones!

 

you asked: I read that the Ipod uses its own format. Is that true?

 

The iTunes is an MP3 format and it is shareable. What may lead to the confusion is that if you purchase and download a tune from the Apple Store you cannot give it to someone elase- without some tricky moves.

 

I use the iTunes software to manage my music on a PC (not a Mac), and I love it.

 

Note: When you install iTunes it will ask you for a credit card to open an account at the Apple Store. Go ahead and do that. They do not send junk adverts and there is no charge unless you actually purchase something.

 

I have a smaller collection than yours but am frequently adding and deleting music from my iPod Nano. My Nano easily connects to my in home stereo system and sounds great. So much easier than playing CD's and I love the shuffle feature which will play the entire library at random.

 

We have a great city library here and I "check out" CDs I like and rip the tracks I like to my iTunes. Most of the time, even my favorite artists have songs/track I just dont like. This makes things easy and economical.

 

I have a turntable too, and it still plays.... I use it for my Slim Whitman collection.

[chrisolson]

I'd agree with Seth ... most any old player will work ... the higher capacity ones are needed if you've recorded at very high bit rates, but unless you changed the default rate in Media Player, you've probably recorded at 128. Consequently the solid state units will be less $$ and may serve your purpose well ... you'll just need to re-load more often.

 

Additionaly I'm unclear if vibration and mounting the hard drive units on the bike (as opposed to putting in your pocket which works nicely) is OK, but the solid state units obviously don't have shock issues.

 

I've had Sirius and now have both XM and MP3 on my Zumo ... MP3 with speaker ear plugs is fantastic ... satellite is OK for variety.

[smiller]

the higher capacity ones are needed if you've recorded at very high bit rates

Or if you simply have a large library. If so it's not at all hard to exceed the capacity of the current crop of flash players. You can load only a portion of your library and delete/re-load as necessary, but in my view this defeats one of the neatest aspects of portable players... the ability to have your entire library available at any time and any place.

 

Additionaly I'm unclear if vibration and mounting the hard drive units on the bike (as opposed to putting in your pocket which works nicely) is OK

If you hard-mount to the bike you will likely have problems, but I simply leave mine in the fairing pocket in a padded case and use a remote control. This works perfectly and keeps the unit safe from weather.

[smiller]

The iTunes is an MP3 format and it is shareable.

Just to clarify between iTunes the music service and iTunes the program...

 

Downloaded iTunes tracks are in the AAC format, and as noted most tracks purchased from the iTunes store utilize a form of DRM (digital rights management) that will prevent their use on non-Apple products (among other restrictions.) If you want to use iTunes as a standalone music management program for ripping CDs it will also use AAC by default, but you can tell it to use the MP3 format in one of the sub-menus.

 

If you want to download music make sure that you select a DRM-free product. iTunes has some of its library available DRM-free (although it's still AAC) or you can buy DRM-free MP3 tracks from Amazon. And of course if you have the CD the best option is to just rip it yourself.

[MattP]

A 5th generation iPod will handle all your mp3 files with room to spare. The 160 gig version is about $300. A set of etymotic earbuds, and a griffin airclick remote and you're good to go. www.provantage.com has some good prices. The itunes application is available for free from www.apple.com It will move your .mp3's to the iPod and help to keep them organized.

 

+1 with a couple of notes.... I have a 4GB iPod Nano and love it. LOVE IT! I was in the same boat- had a lot of CDs ripped into Media Player...iTunes will grab all those for you. iTunes is very intuitive, I think you'll like it. I started with my iPod in my jacket pocket, and the inability to change volume/songs was not good. Toyed with the idea of a remote mounted to the handlebars, but went a slightly different route. I mounted a cradle for the Nano to the left bar via a RAM mount, then ran a 1/8" extention cable under the plastic back to the gap between the seat and the tank. Now I plug my Etymotic ear buds (note: I thought I had lost my mind for paying $70 for ear buds...money WELL spent) into the extention cable, the other end of the cable into the iPod, and away we go. Only downside is that you have to remove the iPod when you stop, and if it starts raining, but that's easy. Good luck!

[bakerzdosen]

If you're really an audiophile, you can always encode your music for your ipod in Apple Lossless compression format. It gives you a smaller file size than CD's but does just what the name implies - it doesn't lose anything. The D/A converters in iPods have historically been the best out there in portable units. (But if you're really the kind of audiophile with a tube amp and turntable that auditioned different kinds of $200+ speaker cables before buying them and then carefully breaking them in, basically any consumer digital format is probably going to bug you... If you just mentioned a turntable because you've had it forever and didn't realize that it's a sign of "true audiophiledom," well, much of this won't apply.)

 

Now, a few things to consider on a bike: As was mentioned, when you're riding along on a bike at 70mph, will you really notice the difference in formats? If you're encoding your music in AAC format at a 256 variable bit rate, I doubt you'll hear a difference at speed. I personally can tell a difference between 128 bit and 256 bit at speed, but beyond that, it's a wash for me. You may have a more discerning ear than me. If that's the case, Apple lossless (or some other lossless format - I just haven't needed others personally) is probably the answer.

 

The problem with Apple lossless is that it takes up a lot more space. With 160GB at your disposal, that might not seem like a big deal. It's certainly not a problem when you're connected to your home rig. But remember, If you use more space, your hard drive spins more often. That causes two problems on a bike: There is more risk of the hard drive crashing if it's bumped or even vibrated just right while it's spinning and your battery life will go down dramatically. Another point to remember is that hard drives have a nasty habit of not working in really cold temperatures. I've had my ipod freeze up on me three times - each time the unit was just under my outer gear and it was in the mid-20's. These things are true of any hard drive based player, not just ipods.

 

Technically speaking, Dolby's AAC format is superior to the MP3 format. There are those that say that Ogg Vorbis is superior to AAC and MP3, but most portable players don't support that format. (Any lossless format would be superior to them all though.) You'll just have to listen for yourself if you've really got that discerning of an ear. But you've really gotta ask yourself: "How important are things like soundstage and a flat response going to be to you at 70mph when you should be paying attention to the road?"

[smiller]

You'll just have to listen for yourself if you've really got that discerning of an ear.

That's really the best way to go if you are concerned about this issue. Google for Foobar 2000 or PCABX and give one or the other a try. These programs will allow the user to blind test between any two samples and see if you can really resolve a difference. Placebo effect can have a dramatic influence and it's easy to be absolutely certain that one sample or another is superior, only to have the difference melt away in a blind test. There have been many such formal blind tests published and the results are almost always the same in that very few individuals, even those experienced and trained in detecting subtle differences, can reliably tell a high-bitrate compressed file from the source even on high-end equipment. And on a portable MP3 player? Fuhgetaboutit.

 

I would encourage anyone interested in this topic to give it a try... the results can be very enlightening.

[eddd]

I am on the end of the spectrum that goes cheap. I recently purchased a 1 gig Creative Labs for $23.00. It holds 16 hours of music, which might not seem like much to some, but I also travel with my XM so I am never at a loss for entertainment.

 

Since my longer trips also involve carrying my laptop anyway, I can load a different 16 hours of music in 5 minutes when I stop for the night(or at anytime).

 

Keep in mind that I am not an audiophile in any sense of the word. I just want to have a little variety availble when I'm in the mood. My $23 solution is working well for me and is a way to get your feet wet without spending hundreds.

[TyTass]

You'll just have to listen for yourself if you've really got that discerning of an ear.

That's really the best way to go if you are concerned about this issue. Google for Foobar 2000 or PCABX and give one or the other a try. These programs will allow the user to blind test between any two samples and see if you can really resolve a difference. Placebo effect can have a dramatic influence and it's easy to be absolutely certain that one sample or another is superior, only to have the difference melt away in a blind test. There have been many such formal blind tests published and the results are almost always the same in that very few individuals, even those experienced and trained in detecting subtle differences, can reliably tell a high-bitrate compressed file from the source even on high-end equipment. And on a portable MP3 player? Fuhgetaboutit.

 

I would encourage anyone interested in this topic to give it a try... the results can be very enlightening.

I agree there's no point in worrying about sample rate in a "portable" environment. But I disagree with your conclusions that it most likely doesn't matter even when a person has an audiophile system and environment at home.

 

I am very interested in the studies you reference where trained professionals could not discern the deviations between various bit rates in audiophile environments. It's not that I doubt you, Seth. I doubt the validity of the findings, which sound exactly like the nonsense of the studies in the late 70s that "proved" that the a sample rate of 44.1kHz was "good enough" and that "even trained professionals" couldn't tell the difference. Immediately after the 44.1kHz format was decided upon, new studies came out where "trained professionals" proved time and time again that they could indeed discern differences between sample rates, when everything but the CD format changed - moving towards higher and higher sample rates. It was a case where those who wanted the CD technology out sooner rather than waiting for advances in microprocessing technology quoted and at times funded the studies with results they were looking for.

 

Seriously, PM me. I'm interested - not trying to "win" a conversation here.

[CoarsegoldKid]

I have a non-Ipod solid state MP3 player. 4gig of memory holds a lot of music. Sound is fine for me but hey my hearing is not a good as some. The problem with the non-Ipod units IMHO is that aftermarket stuff like remote volume control and such are not available. Also my unit requires it be hooked to a computer to charge the battery. No cig lighter to player adapters are available.

[smiller]

Seriously, PM me. I'm interested - not trying to "win" a conversation here.

Oh, no offense at all, and yeah, it is an interesting topic. Of course if we're going to get into audiophile lore then we maybe should move over to the thread on religion.

 

There are any number of Internet sources on this topic, try here for an example, or also check out the Hydrogenaudio site... those dudes are really into it.

 

I'm not claiming any absolute knowledge here BTW, just that the preponderance of the evidence that I've seen seems to point to the conclusion in my last post.

[eddd]

I have a non-Ipod solid state MP3 player. 4gig of memory holds a lot of music. Sound is fine for me but hey my hearing is not a good as some. The problem with the non-Ipod units IMHO is that aftermarket stuff like remote volume control and such are not available. Also my unit requires it be hooked to a computer to charge the battery. No cig lighter to player adapters are available.

 

Batteries are something I should have mentioned, and something to consider. Many MP3 players have rechargable batteries, but some of these batteries don't last through the day, so you need to connect to the cycle's electrical system.

 

Other use AA or AAA batteries that can be consumed very quickly. The player I mentioned uses a single AAA and it will not last long enough to play the 16 hours of stored music. I use rechargable batteries so I just take a bunch of those with me.

 

Buying batteries can get expensive and needs to be kept in mind. The ones that charge through the USB can really be limiting.

[Jones]

Thanks for all of your input. I think I am getting most of this stuff figured out. The 5th generation Ipod classic, from what has been said here, is sounding pretty good.

 

I should have been more specific in that I don't think I'll mount the unit to the bike and I'm OK with changing batteries or plugging in. You can plug it into the bike, right?? Stopping is not a problem as the fuel capacity of the RT has already exceeded the capacity of my bladder.

 

When I recorded my collection, I selected mp3 at the "largest" rate available, whatever that is. Having a significant portion of my collection in my pocket sounds really cool but It's OK to load what's needed for the particular ride. Stan Getz rides are different from Brownie McGee rides. Some of the albums are crap anyhow.

 

As for quality, I really wish I was an audiophile but almost 3 decades of sirens and air-horns has made that a non-issue. I just love the tunes but I don't think I could appreciate the fine differences between formats especially on a moving bike.

 

(BTW brother bakerzdosen: I DO have a Marantz tube amplifier. Warm and clean!)

 

Thanks for straightening me out about the Ipod. As long as it likes my mp3s it sounds fine. It has nice accessories available, a radio remote for one, as this thing will live in my pocket. Itunes did scare me but I'll give it a try.

 

Now I just gotta swing 3 bones for the pod and almost another C-note for some etymotic earbuds and a griffin airclick remote. Oh well, It's just money.

 

You people are the best.

[Twisties]

We have creative Zen 80 gB units. The battery will last all day (12 -14 hours) on locked mode, however the units are buggy, buggy, buggy. We've had to reformat the hard drives several times. Performance is highly variable: sometimes they start right up, but other times they take 3 or 4 minutes to boot up, and then response to control inputs is amazingly slow, say 30 seconds per step. Sometimes it infers steps you don't intend from the oversensitive touch pad, and you lose a full minute or more getting back to what you wanted.

 

Sometimes plugging it into the charger, or unplugging it from the charger causes the unit to turn on, and if you don't notice you end up with a dead battery. The units continually turn themselves off while playing (apparently at random intervals, and no, it's not vibration related, they'll do it sitting undisturbed on my desk). Since we have them in our tail spaces when riding, this can be very inconvenient, especially if we have a load strapped down on the rear seat.

 

I have yet to figure out to select and play an album from the unit menu (but you can make a playlist when connected to a computer). It requires an idiot dongle to connect to a computer. Note however, that the unit will happily, and on any excuse, play an album that it chooses randomly. It loves "album of the day".

 

They don't ship with a charger (so you have to use the USB computer connection which takes 5 hours, and requires on most computers that the computer stay active - Not Green), however aftermarket chargers can be had at a reasonable price. Wall chargers get the job done in about 2 hours. The aftermarket cigarette lighter units we bought are unusable for noise and electrical interference. The wall mount units are poorly built, but work.

 

The manual is worthless, and we haven't access to a teenager... unit is extremely non-intuitive. Service amounts to poorly worded FAQs on the web, that leave out steps, and are not well thought through.

 

Highly not recommended.

 

Jan

[bakerzdosen]

(BTW brother bakerzdosen: I DO have a Marantz tube amplifier. Warm and clean!)

Marantz is about as high end as I go (or I can afford) in my home rig, so I can appreciate that.

 

Thanks for straightening me out about the Ipod. As long as it likes my mp3s it sounds fine. It has nice accessories available, a radio remote for one, as this thing will live in my pocket. Itunes did scare me but I'll give it a try.

It's a tough switch over for people used to windows sometimes. It's just more intuitive than you may be used to. I've answered lots of friends questions about iTunes and their response to the answer is often "Man, it never occured to me that it would be that simple."

 

Now I just gotta swing 3 bones for the pod and almost another C-note for some etymotic earbuds and a griffin airclick remote. Oh well, It's just money.

If you're looking to save a bit, watch the refurbs at http://store.apple.com. They don't have any of the new ones up there yet, but they will eventually. I've only heard of anecdotal stories on the web about refurb units failing. I'll probably look there when my 4.5 year old iPod dies eventually.

 

My wife dropped her iPod shuffle (refurb) off the bike at 65+ mph and we went back and found it. She's still using it today. (I wouldn't recommend doing that with a hard drive based unit though.)

 

ER-6's can often be found for $75 at buy.com.

[Fugu]

"How important are things like soundstage and a flat response going to be to you at 70mph when you should be paying attention to the road?"

 

And just how does one get earphones to stage?

 

 

I'm a former audiophile. I'm a music lover, and I now use my audiophile bent only to facilitate listening to music, not to chase some unattainable mythical perfection. I'm a former pusher of audio gear. I sold $15,000 speaker cables to people with $100,000 speakers to replace their "old" $3000 cables that weren't as good...

 

I hated even the idea of owning an ipod like all those damn 14 year olds and feared proprietary Apple software. Well, a twist of fate and I ended up w/ an ipod and I love the stupid thing for the car and on the bike. It's good enough fidelity for those environs.

 

I'm not going to get in the debate of compression is or is not audible. On a bike I think it's just completely irrelevant - too much noise. I set whatever software I'm using to max fidelity. W/ Razorlame, that's -alt preset extreme. W/ Itunes, I think it's a little slider. I push mine over to the "You don't really have to go that far over" line.

 

Over 192 bit VBR the differences are slim, but I do sometimes listen in quiet environs and the sound quality is better. Yes, I know the guy who wrote Lame says it's not audible. I'm betting he's a tin eared programmer listening to PC speakers his whole life. The files are big, but I can deal with that even w/ my 30G refurbed ipod cheapy off ebay.

 

Itunes works remarkably well. I wanted to hate it, I thought it would suck, I even snagged a copy of Anapod explorer to get around having to use it. I end up using the itunes because it's easy and works good.

[bakerzdosen]

And just how does one get earphones to stage?

With a decent source and phones like UE-10 Pro's or Prophonic 2x-s's, you will indeed hear a relatively accurate representation of the soundstage. As much as I like my Etymotics, they are just out of their league here, though some claim an "OK" soundstage with the ER-4s's.

 

Does it compare to your "average" home system made up exclusively of Stereophile class A and B stuff? No way. Are full size cans still better at staging? Yup. Can you distinguish the placement with plugs's (IEM's)? You bet.

 

The problem is, most people don't want to wear $900+ custom plugs in addition to carrying around an additional amp (even something as small as the Altoids can amp) on their bike. You're right in that you probably can't distinguish anything while using the popular iPod->ER-6i setup (especially if you add an Autocom into the mix.)

 

There are some great reviews of all of the above at http://www.head-fi.org/, but seeing as how they're undergoing a MASSIVE hardware failure, you'll either have to wait or search through google's cache to really read them.

[smiller]

Yes, I know the guy who wrote Lame says it's not audible.

Actually no, he doesn't, and has never suggested any such thing. Quite the contrary, the LAME development group is constantly searching for audible artifacts, which is the only way to continue to improve the software. LAME is one of the few encoders that is still under constant development work.

 

But yes, the LAME developers are tin-eared computer programmers, and they know it That's why they rely on thousands of hours of blind testing by trained subject groups rather than subjective impressions. You tend to get more accurate results that way.

[Fugu]

Yes, I know the guy who wrote Lame says it's not audible.

Actually no, he doesn't, and has never suggested any such thing.

 

I've been beaten over the head with Bouvigne's comments on 320 kbps encoding repeatedly. Your comments here sent me to go find the interview with him to quote, and as it turns out, the people who have been telling me anything over 192kbps is overkill according to him are misquoting Bouvigne.

 

WHat he said was in reply to somebody claiming 320kbps through LAME sounds BETTER than the original .wav files, and to that he replied that he thought it was placebo effect.

 

He wasn't saying 320kbps mp3 doesn't sound better than 192kbps.

 

I stand corrected.

 

One such interview is here: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue32/lame.htm

 

That's why they rely on thousands of hours of blind testing by trained subject groups rather than subjective impressions. You tend to get more accurate results that way.

 

Yes, more accurate. Not necessarily better. Of course that goes back to analog v. digital, tube v. transistor, CD v. LP. You want the most accurate, or do you want the best sounding? And can you accept that these are not always the same thing?

 

 

 

Is there some reason my previous message telling Bakersdozen that I'd like to take our geek discussion of the sound staging capabilities of headphones to PM was deleted? I can tell the post registered because yours looks like a reply to it.

 

In a nutshell, I've never heard any headphones that imaged outside my head. WHatever sound stage there is gets located someplace in your skull with headphones, and I'm not limiting the discussion to in ear types. I've spent time listening to some pretty high end headphone rigs of several types.

 

The best ones have detail and dynamics that are nearly unmatchable with regular speakers due to room interaction, but that same fact limits their ability to really fool your brain into hearing a lifelike soundstage where sounds seem to come not only from between the speakers, but from outside their left/ right boundaries.

 

Of course this is not really a big issue on a motorcycle.

[smiller]

You want the most accurate, or do you want the best sounding? And can you accept that these are not always the same thing?

Yes, absolutely, no disagreement there.

[bakerzdosen]

Is there some reason my previous message telling Bakersdozen that I'd like to take our geek discussion of the sound staging capabilities of headphones to PM was deleted? I can tell the post registered because yours looks like a reply to it.

Yeah, that is weird. I know I gotta respond to that PM, but haven't got to it yet... But we're not that far off in opinions.

 

In a nutshell, I've never heard any headphones that imaged outside my head. WHatever sound stage there is gets located someplace in your skull with headphones, and I'm not limiting the discussion to in ear types. I've spent time listening to some pretty high end headphone rigs of several types.

 

The best ones have detail and dynamics that are nearly unmatchable with regular speakers due to room interaction, but that same fact limits their ability to really fool your brain into hearing a lifelike soundstage where sounds seem to come not only from between the speakers, but from outside their left/ right boundaries.

 

Of course this is not really a big issue on a motorcycle.

I can only get a bit of soundstage with my ER-4p's, but it is there. My "relatively cheap" home system does stage better.

 

And yes, this has nothing to do with a motorcycle, but we agree on everything motorcycle related, so the thread would just die if we didn't continue discussing things upon which we don't agree. Then we'd all just be stuck singing Kum Ba Yah together. At least the staging would sound good.

 

OOOOHHH Jamie...