Illustrated Lessons from RidingSmart II

[David]

I think we might be able to learn more by watching the riding of our own group, and this thread is meant to illustrate a few things we've learned through RidingSmart.

 

First, sorry about the quality of these images. They are "stills" pulled from a miniDV tape and thus the resolution isn't real high.

 

Second, I have the permission of the riders to make this post and wouldn't do it otherwise. All of us are interested in learning and the heart of the gatherings is honest feedback.

 

A Two-Up Experiment

 

Ken H. and Donna asked if they could do the weekend two-up, and we jumped at the opportunity to try it. These folks rocked. Donna was just as into it as all the riders, and it was fun to see them doing the exercises two-up.

 

I wanted to illustrate a before/after shot of the effect of body position. In this first shot, toward the beginning of the day, the body position needs some help. The red line mimics the lean angle of the camera bike. It's not exact given the curvature and lean, but it's very close. So the first thing to notice is how much extra they are leaning than the camera bike. If you look at the road in relation to the horizon, you'll see a pretty significant lean already in place for them--theirs is magnified, which means they have less lean angle clearance and less traction (for steering and braking). Notice too that they are scraping. Those sparks are from the footpeg.

 

The blue line represents the center line of the bike itself, and you can see that Ken is barely right and Donna is barely left, offsetting each other. Not only are they not leaned in the same direction, but the net is that they are on the bike's centerline.

 

The second picture was taken at the end of the day. You'll see that Donna now has her feet pointed more inward, she's in a neutral position, and she's looking through the curve over Ken's shoulder. Speaking of Ken, his upper body is way off toward the inside, where it should be, and his inside knee is slightly dropped. He's also lower and more forward. It's a really beautiful "sporty" two-up position. And they are leaning just slightly more than the camera bike. A big

 

 

 

More Illustrations of Good Body Position

 

This is Christine. It's probably more forward and down than you'd want for a long ride, but if a corner surprises you, there's no better position to be in if you want to maximize your mind and machine. And yes, that's an AWACS pod on the back.

 

 

Here's Mitch. Notice how much extra lean angle he has. There's tons of room left, and he was moving at a pretty good clip. His head is forward, in, and down, right over the RT mirror.

 

 

Here's Spike:

 

 

Here's ChrisK, who has a pretty fearless lean angle indicator. In this case, a big part of his shoulder is to the inside (see the blue line), but his head isn't over the mirror, where it should be. As a result, he's carrying far more lean angle than the camera bike. Compare the lean from the lean differential between the red line. When he gets this figured out, none of us will get any video of him!

 

 

Example of a Good Transition

 

Moving your upper body around is all that's necessary unless you are really hooning it. Not only is there far more weight concentrated above your waist, but it doesn't upset the bike because you aren't tempted to use the bars to move your lower body across the seat. Here's a good example. You might have to watch it a few times to see it in the QuickTime Movie. It's easier to see as he transitions to the left:

 

Click here to see the 11 second movie.

 

Finally, there were many examples of good execution--I just chose these because the camera bike just happened to be close enough to get a discernible image.

[rrrich]

This is dynamite stuff, David...a picture is worth a thousand words. Very helpfull to see ChrisK's sholder in but head out and the effect it has on angle...something I think I probably do as well and am going to practice on the way home.

 

Rich

[Patience]

Phew... I'm glad ChrisK will be breaking in a new bike while I'm following him down towards Nashville through Indiana. That's more lean angle than I think I could do comfortably just yet. Oh wait. Indiana doesn't have curves like that. No problem!

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

Here's ChrisK, who has a pretty fearless lean angle indicator. In this case, a big part of his shoulder is to the inside (see the blue line), but his head isn't over the mirror, where it should be. As a result, he's carrying far more lean angle than the camera bike. Compare the lean from the lean differential between the red line. When he gets this figured out, none of us will get any video of him!

 

I saw this in a few of the videos we watched. THe difference seems to be a matter of where the rider bends his/her spine. The only bend should be above your shoulders, to bring your head level.

 

To get your whole upper body cocked to one side, you don't bend your lower back, you rock on your "sitbones." these are the red parts of your pelvis shown in this picture:

 

 

Hard to spot whether people had that right in the video clips/stills, but if a rider is paying attention he/she can easily tell the difference between bending his/her lower back and actually rocking side to side on those sit bones. The easier "oops" to spot is when people bend their upper or middle back (as Chris K did) to get their head level with the roadway. Keep the spine straight, bend your neck instead; that'll keep more of your body mass far from the centerline of the bike.

 

For real, Chris had the best advice all weekend: try to bite off a piece of your mirror. Left turn, your head gets left, forward, and down; the right half of your butt comes off the seat; and your right knee digs into the tank while the ball of your right foot pushes on the peg. Try it! Play around with it on the straights to get a feel for it, and then try using it in turns.

[Voodoo]

Very helpfull to see ChrisK's sholder in but head out and the effect it has on angle...something I think I probably do as well and am going to practice on the way home.

 

It's probably the most common mistake people make when they "think" about changing their body position. When most people think about leaning off, they instinctively slide their lower half over because that's what they see on TV and in the pictures. The problem is that the upper body then counter corrects out of fear/uncomfort. Sliding your lower half over but then cancelling the effect the whole effect by counter leaning with your upper body just gets you out of whack.

 

That's why, as David said, you should concentrate on your upper body first - head over mirrors, etc - then follow that with your lower body when needed.

 

And, just for the record, Christine's position up there rocks! It might have been more than needed for the speed, but damn, she's ready for as much speed as she needs right there!

[Tasker]

Indiana doesn't have curves like that.

 

WANNA BET ? ! ! !

[Spike]

Indiana doesn't have curves like that.

 

WANNA BET ? ! ! !

 

Tasker, please see me this weekend. We are going to borrow a computer at the hotel and then Im gonna teach you all about the wonderful world of UBB quotes.

 

-- Spike

[Voodoo]

Indiana doesn't have curves like that.

 

WANNA BET ? ! ! !

 

Tasker, please see me this weekend. We are going to borrow a computer at the hotel and then Im gonna teach you all about the wonderful world of UBB quotes.

 

-- Spike

 

LOL!!!!

[wedgeman]

David,

nice vid clippage.. tres cool...

 

Here's a question for the more, 'hoonish' in the house...

 

Suppose one is living in Deep Space 9 already (that netherworld out beyond the mirrors sought for by all, seen by few, feared by most), so as to maximize ground clearance and afford fastrer times thru curvies...

 

I'm finding that I often reach a point (I call it past "ZERO"), where I can't 'counter-steer and correct" to go thru a turn. I get the bike over, and am down and in keeping a good balance, but I don't have enough angle to get the bike around the turn without changing bar geometry. IOW, I'm finding that I'm off the inside, hanging the bike up thru the turn, but simple countersteering is parking me in the ditch.

 

At this point, I've begun to "pull' the bike thru the turn. IOW, I'm off the inside of the bike, have countersteerred into the turn, but am actually physically pulling the tire BACK into the turn, and hanging myslef far off inside to force it towards me. Riding at ZERO (where it's all countersteering and no 'pulling) seems to result in too wide of an arc..

 

But it doesn't seem right. It feels like I'm really really fighting the bike when I do this. I get INTO the turn fine--probably hot, but I'm just trying to get a faster turn speed, and still come out in the groove..

 

Is this proper proceedure?? How do you get thru a turn faster when you're physically down already, but you're grinding out?

 

Yeah, yeah, everybody says slow down, but that's just boring..

[Haynes]

At my ripe old age I learn rather slowly and it took me a while to analyse what made a successful turn at speed.

I found that the biggest elements were to lean forward as I enter the corner, bend my elbows and allow my head to move over to the inside of the turn.

In this position, I get more visual and tactile feedback and have more control over the steering inputs.

[David]

At my ripe old age I learn rather slowly and it took me a while to analyse what made a successful turn at speed.

I found that the biggest elements were to lean forward as I enter the corner, bend my elbows and allow my head to move over to the inside of the turn.

In this position, I get more visual and tactile feedback and have more control over the steering inputs.

 

Sounds perfect! And I welcome the emphasis on "more control" and better "feedback" vs. an emphasis on speed.

[David]

How do you get thru a turn faster when you're physically down already, but you're grinding out?

 

Yeah, yeah, everybody says slow down, but that's just boring..

 

I'll admit that I've read this a couple times and I'm not sure I understand the setting. Are you saying that you are already scraping hard parts and need to lean deeper, even with your body in the right position?

 

I'm not certain that's what you are asking, but if it is, the problem is what you are asking of your suspension. You are going too fast (sorry, but it's the truth)--so fast that you aren't at neutral or positive throttle, which means that your suspension isn't being allowed to work well and give you the clearance you want. Start slow, slow, slow--so slow that you can accelerate all the way through the turn.

 

Now, if the question is more about the "feel" of your body position, concentrate on your lower body, first, to make sure you are providing a platform for your upper body that allows it to swing to the inside and forward. If your lower body doesn't feel "locked" onto the bike, it's going to feel out of control.

[steve.foote]

David, I'll add a little to what David just said (sure are a lot of 'Davids' in this).

 

Regardless of your speed, you have to develop a balance with the bike that produces zero steering bias to pull off the perfect turn. If you are going faster, you will need to lean the bike more AND lean off more. If you are going slower, you will need less bike lean and less body lean.

 

It sounds like, from your post, that you are executing good body lean (deep space 9), but not enough bike lean for the faster turns. This will cause you to fight the bike throught the turn with countersteer. Push the bike down until you have enough lean (combined body and bike) to require zero bar input.

 

Like David said before, if all fails, you may be simply hitting it too hot. Getting some feedback from a trailing rider may be the ticket.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Wedgie,

I'm gonna chime in here and pile on with the rest. You are probably getting into your corner(s) too fast if you have to go to a lean that is dragging hard parts and you are way off the bike.

 

Recent experience which has lead to a vast improvement in my riding skills has reinforced the slow in fast out thing for me so hard that it is the only way to ride as far as I am concerned. Maybe some thought to the matter of riding fast and the simple math involved. The difference between your situation and a more controlled entry is only a few mph into and through the corner. The difference between exit speeds is dramatically in favor of the guy who can get on the gas sooner because of a slightly slower entry speed. It is exit speed that (given bikes of equal acceleration ability) will make the difference down the entire next straight. Look at it this way, would you prefer a 5 mph advantage for the arc of the corner or a 5 mph starting advantage on acceleration all down the following straight. The one gains you a few feet at most, the other maybe 2 or 3 bike lengths.

 

The really fast guys are not fast everywhere, all the time, only when it is right to be.

 

Ed

[chadhargis]

One thing that helps me when riding the twisties briskly is to get my weight shifted a bit early instead of trying to move while starting the turn. Sometimes I find that I need to steer the opposite direction of the turn if I shift my weight in too early, but this usually sets me up on the outside of the turn for a proper line.

 

Also, when I'm riding a really twisty road, if there is a series of turns which requires me to "flick" the bike back and forth, I tend to scrub off some speed versus trying to slide back and forth on the bike. That seems to make for a smoother ride.

 

Interestingly enough, I find I have to REALLY shift my weight to hustle the FJR around, but on my Ducati M900, I don't have to hang off quite as much. Perhaps this is due to the fact the Monster weighs quite a bit less than the FJR and has a steeper steering rake.

[johnt650]

David,

I had a conflict on the dates of the Ride Smart II or I would have signed up immediately. That said the information and pictures you have passed on here are very helpful.

[silverghost]

Okay, David. First off, very cool video on the sport biker. Let me ask a couple questions, if I may, just to see if I understand this concept of "leaning." Am I to infer that if you lean the upper body in the direction of the turn, then, (by concentrating putting your head in alignment with the inside mirror) that you will have to lean the bike less (which it looks like it happening in the photos)? If this is correct, so far, my question is why, given the fact that you are putting some body mass even more away from the center of gravity, that this wouldn't tend to make the bike "fall" into the turn, rather than be more upright? Is it that because the body mass is over, that you have to keep the bike more upright to compensate, thereby allowing you a little higher entry speed? Hope I made myself clear. Thanks for any help here.

[David]

Am I to infer that if you lean the upper body in the direction of the turn, then, (by concentrating putting your head in alignment with the inside mirror) that you will have to lean the bike less (which it looks like it happening in the photos)?

 

Yes, that's correct.

 

If this is correct, so far, my question is why, given the fact that you are putting some body mass even more away from the center of gravity, that this wouldn't tend to make the bike "fall" into the turn, rather than be more upright? Is it that because the body mass is over, that you have to keep the bike more upright to compensate, thereby allowing you a little higher entry speed? Hope I made myself clear. Thanks for any help here.

 

The term we probably ought to be using is center of mass instead of center of gravity. The reason the bike doesn't "fall" into the turn when you lean your body to the inside is that the bike itself leans toward the outside of the turn, in effect leaning less. So essentially you split the center of mass.

 

All this (leaning less) will allow higher corner entry speeds, but that's not necessarily the goal. The main point of "less lean" is better traction, less scraping, and a far more effective suspension.

 

Hope that helps!

[silverghost]

Thanks a lot David...that helps clear it up for me---I will go practice it. Lorel

[Reprobate]

Well, this doesn't work in the dirt.

[Shaun]

Guess it’s inferred … but it also really helps the dynamics if as much body weight as possible rests on the pegs, rather than the seat.

[SCOTTinNJ]

One thing that helps me when riding the twisties briskly is to get my weight shifted a bit early instead of trying to move while starting the turn.

 

This is a good point. In the video, the rider seems to "dive" into the corner a little. It's generally better to set your body position well before the turn, such that when you hit the beginning of the arc you are already fully setup. I find that when I "dive" into the turn, I end up turning too much and have to make a mid-corner correction - usually to straighten up a bit. Get the body in position first, then brake, then turn.

 

Of course, this is easier to understand at track speeds. Sometimes on sweeping turns on the street like in the video it just flows better to "dive" a little. But, technically, that's not an ideal riding method.

[motorman587]

I am not trying to start an argument, but I think the couple looks the best in the corners. If I taught a motor school with that much body lean angle, I would get fired. What happen to sitting up straight and pressing the hand grips. You riding a sport touring motorcycle not a super bike. OK, waiting to get my head copped off.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

John,

What you advocate is fine for just cruising around. The suggestions here are for a more sporting kinda riding. Here, subtle changes in body position make a dramatic difference in the stability of the motorcycle, even at a moderate pace.

 

Try it yourself. Next time you are out on your motor, the departments or your own, head into an on ramp you are familiar with and go in just a bit hotter than you normally do. Don't risk crashing, just get a little hot. Take note of how you and the bike feel going through the turn, in particular once you have rolled on the gas to accelerate through the turn. Now, go down the road, U-turn and come back and hit the same ramp. This time, before you get into the turn, just lean forward a tiny bit and shift your shoulders to the inside, trying to bite the mirror is a good analogy. Now complete the turn just as you did before.

 

Hmmm, seemed like the bike didn't have to lean quite so much to get through the turn? Much less mid turn correction needed or pressure on the bars to hold the line? That results form the subtle weight shift to the inside and the relaxing on the bars caused by the slight forward lean. It is a very valid technique. You don't need to drag your arse off the seat or bang a knee down in the corner to improve technique, this little bit helps a whole bunch.

 

After you get a bit of practice at it, try it on your motor training field. Even there, with most of the emphasis on slow speed, tight turns, a weight shift can make a dramatic difference in available clearance.

 

Ed

[Hewhois]

Hi David,

 

Very helpful thread. Been catching myself lately leaning *back* a bit on my bike. Probably my cruiser beginnings coming back to haunt me.

 

When I go into Deep Space 9 mode, I find it hard to not put any weight on the handlebars, and in consequence my steering input is jerky with lots of corrections. If I moderate the position some, that seems to help, but I don't feel like I am as close to the ideal position that I could be.

 

Guess I will try it in stages.

[steve.foote]

John, the emphasis on leaning is to enable more control in the corner.

 

In the case with Ken and Donna, the first picture shows them leaned all the way down to the hard parts. The second shows them with much less bike lean. If Ken had to suddenly react an obstacle, which position would be more helpful and give more options?

 

If you equate lean angle to money (upright being $100 and leaned to the point of losing traction being $0), it's a simple choice. Do you want more or less money in your wallet?

 

Ed's right, give it a shot. PD training and policy do a lot of things right. BUT, and that's a big 'but', they also do some things that make one wonder (riding side-by-side at highway speeds, officers in short-sleeve shirts and open-face helmets???).

 

I think there is room for improvement. The Army air corps used to prohibit banking in turns. They got over it.

[motorman587]

I feel more in control sitting on the motor than leaning off. I have been into corners fast chasing folks and yet did have to lean off looking like I am out of control. If there was something that I had to stop for and was leaning way out I would have to first sit up and straighten the hand bars and then brake. If you are leaning with the motor all you have to straighten and brake. Also I dragging motor school parts is problem with set up in the courner and then sometimes you just have to drag. The were two up so there is more pull on the suspension.

 

I kind of like the last person lean also, but the others picture in middle just look out of control. Other way to look at, if I were on patrol and saw motors come around a corner and saw the first two and last rider I would let them go, but the riders in the middle that look like they are fighting with lean of the motorcycle I would have to turn around and do a pace clock, if I did not get a clock or see if they would run.

 

I guess it is different riding styles, but I have to say I was never taught that way nor would I try it. If I crash do I say I learned on the internet?

[russell_bynum]

I guess it is different riding styles, but I have to say I was never taught that way nor would I try it.

 

I'm really having trouble with this statement, John...it seems very closed-minded. All of this stuff is about being MORE in control of the motorcycle, which is always a good thing.

 

Also, your perception that you need to get straight on the bike, then stand it up in order to brake, is just flat wrong. First of all...with some minimal practice, it is not difficult to learn how to brake while leaned over. Second, you can stand the bike up and get on the brakes while still hanging off a bit. Third, the majority of the emphasis on body position in RideingSmart seems to be on UPPER body. i.e. you keep your butt pretty well planted in place, shift your weight on your sit bones, and move your upper body off to the inside. This makes it very easy to just move your upper body back to center if you need to stand the bike up for whatever reason.

 

Also, if I'm not mistaken (and please correct me if I'm wrong), but doesn't police motor training put the emphasis on low-speed stuff? The figure 8 within a box and all of that stuff? I'm always impressed with the way motor officers handle their bikes at low speeds, but the skills required to do a figure eight at 5mph while dragging hard parts are different than the skills required to negotiate a corner at speed.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

guess it is different riding styles, but I have to say I was never taught that way nor would I try it.

 

John,

 

I agree with Russell, that statement is really close minded. This is a valid riding technique, proven by many, many riders. As Russell pointed out, you needn't hang you butt off the side of the bike, rather, you just move a bit on your sit bones and place the upper portion of your body to the inside of the turn. Even a couple of inches makes a big difference. It is a subtle move with a big impact on stability and precision. Surely your neck is not so stiff as to be unable to move your head a few inches is it? Give it a shot, you just might learn something outside of motor training that could save your own butt. I would think with the emphasis you place on riding safely you would welcome anything which improves control of the motorcycle.

 

Ed

[David]

I feel more in control sitting on the motor than leaning off.

 

That's just because you haven't done it. I don't feel in control sitting bolt upright with the bike!

 

Other way to look at, if I were on patrol and saw motors come around a corner and saw the first two and last rider I would let them go, but the riders in the middle that look like they are fighting with lean of the motorcycle I would have to turn around and do a pace clock, if I did not get a clock or see if they would run.

 

Well, this was a class, and so the movements are intentionally exaggerated. What they were illustrating is exactly what were looking for. None of them were going particularly fast (we were on public roads).

 

If you go read "The Pace" you'll see that one reason not to hang off (though N.I. is talking more about lower body) is to not attract attention as "going fast." But I still find that persepctive (that they must be doing something wrong) sad and stereotypical.

 

Come on up to the spring El Paseo and let's ride together.

[Ken H.]

Not to beat up on poor John anymore, but there are a couple of other points to the whole technique worth mentioning beside the 'leaning off' part... (Actually 'lean forward and out' is more apropos than 'lean off.')

 

First, by getting your upper torso forward and down, it forces you to bend your elbows, thus allowing the front suspension to work more independent of you. It gets you out of the stiff armed thing where you interfere with and fight the bike.

 

Second is the feet and legs position part of the form. Balls of the feet, not the instep, on the pegs gets your toes up and out of the way of the pavement. A very good thing! And it allows you to better slightly 'lift' and push back your butt. Not for the purpose of leaning off, but to get it back and to disconnect it a bit from the seat, allowing the rear suspension to work under you better. Think of a horse rider's form. Your legs acting as moving pivot points at the hips and knees.

 

I've been showing a couple of people here parts of the concept. They both independently came up with same word, "lighter." The bike feels lighter underneath you when you allow it work underneath you.

 

Finally it allows you to put the bike in a natural, neutral balance through the turn/curve. Without having to apply a constant counter-steering pressure. Again allowing the bike to work as it is designed through the curve without interference from you.

 

Try it, you'll like it!

[motorman587]

Ok, OK, I tried it last night enroute to a serious crash. Can not do it. I feel like I am into the corner and the motorcycle is not. Again an RT is for comfort and I

understand with body if I was riding GSXR. I too, have been to a riding school, Kevin Schwantz and he too taught to hang your butt off etc.......... Can not see it on an RT.

 

Motor school does teach low speed stuff however we have a small track and some days are spent on taking corners. Again it different riding styles, I guess.

 

Aren't cops suppose to profile?

[steve.foote]

Aren't cops suppose to profile?

 

John,

 

As Ron White would say, "Profiling is wrong."

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

For more on lean angle and hanging your weight off the bike, click on this post; for more yet, click out to the whole thread.

[Ken H.]

I feel like I am into the corner and the motorcycle is not.

Actually John, you may have subconsciously stated one of the fundamental reason why this works. And other 'zen' type riding mindsets that get vocalized from time-to-time.

 

The motorcycle is just a tool to get YOU into, and around/through, the corner. In all riding I suggest thinking in terms of the path you want YOU to follow, then use the motorcycle to take you there.

 

It matters not where the motorcycle is if it is most effectively taking you where you want to be. Divorce (maybe 'decouple' is the right word) yourself from concern about the motorcycle's path, but use it to set your body's own path.

 

But we can let this go. Take David (or someone else) up on his offer to demonstrate, explain, etc. in person some time. If for no other reason than to expand your options!

 

Cheers!

[motorman587]

I have answered the post once, do not know if it got deleted. Anyway, I am not going to be taught how to ride over the internet and the pictures show me, in some, that the wrong set up in the corner. Most are in the middle of the corner. What happend to settng up in the outside, inside and outside. You can take those couners straight up, not scrap pegs, and not have that sport bike image. Sorry, you will not change this guy. Maybe if you guys came up to Tallahassee, I could show you to ride "Motorman" style. Last year I took an LT up to the "Dragon" two up. He rode a sport bike. I eat him up for lunch, and sat up straight. It is all how you practice. To me it sounds like you are trying to teach someone how to corner that is scared already and attempting to make change so they can go into the corner faster.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

John,

No disrespect but, those are some pretty good riders moving along at a pace you may not be familiar with. I very much doubt that you and your LT will be eating any of their lunches. I also doubt that there was much fear involved here. Yes the pictures show the action near the middle of most of the corners. The bikes seem to be positioned quite well on the road, aiming for safe apexes with the exit of the turn clearly in sight.

 

Your work bike might be a better platform to try this stuff on than your LT. The control layout of the Hippo makes it a bit more difficult to achieve the proper body position.

 

The entire purpose of these exercises is to move the combined center of mass of the bike and rider further to the inside of the turn to allow the combination to proceed around the corner at reduced lean angle for the speed involved. This action increases margins of safety in allowing a more controlled passage through the turn and more options in positioning the motorcycle should the unexpected rear its ugly head.

 

I respect your decision to ride your own ride but, dismissing a valid technique that allows additional safety just cause it felt uncomfortable the first time you tried it smacks of the reactionary to me. How long did it take you to perfect your current technique? Try this one for just a week. You'll be a better and safer rider for it.

 

Ed

[steve.foote]

John,

 

I fully agree with you about being cautious about what you hear on the internet. I don't recommend that folks go out and try to adopt the RidingSmart techniques until they have had the chance to observe them in person.

 

That having been said, I personally find these techniques have had a profound effect on my riding. The key word here is confidence. Better control + better lines = confidence. And with increased confidence comes more enjoyment of the ride.

 

I feel like there is a little tug-of-war going on here. I certainly didn't mean to put you on the defensive and hope you don't take any of our comments personally. You are an excellent contributer and I have enjoyed many of your posts. You also perform an important job and your input is valued.

[motorman587]

Thank you guys, I was not trying to be disrespectful also. I know some of you ride a lot of high mileage and I was just attempting to add my point of view. I think you said it best is, ride your ride and what ever works for you stay with it. Pratice. This is it for me on this topic.

[chadhargis]

No question that body position helps with cornering clearance, even a little change in position. You don't have to slide your butt way off the seat for body position to be effective. You can simply move your shoulder toward the turn. This will also help you countersteer.

 

As David has mentioned, there is more mass in your upper body than your lower body. Squids get all jazzed about "dragging knees", but that's really only useful on the track where your knee becomes your "lowside sensor" so to speak.

[Patience]

I guess it is different riding styles, but I have to say I was never taught that way nor would I try it. If I crash do I say I learned on the internet?

 

Why not? It worked for me!

 

Actually, I'm not 100% on this one as I've never seen myself ride, and have only ridden curvies with other people for the first time this weekend, but I think (hope) my body position looked similar to Christine's, based largely what I read on here. (Feel free to chip in here if I'm off base in how I was riding) The extra stability and braking ability afforded by the weight shift meant I had more traction available to brake if I needed it. If I needed to stand the bike up and brake it, since it was already more vertical because of the split center of mass, I can do it quicker and smoother, and be more prepared for continuing the turn.

 

My two cents, anyway.

[Spike]

...because of the split center of mass...

 

So just how do you split a center of mass anyway ?

[Ken H.]

Sorry, you will not change this guy.

Ok, I give up. Just was trying to be enthusiastic about something some of us have found that really works for us.

 

Enjoy your riding! After all, that's what it's all about!