Troublesome R1150RT

[Linz]

OK, I have twenty years experience with Beemers so I'm no newbie but I have an issue with my bike that is difficult to work out.

 

My previous R1100RT (first model released) surged but not badly enough to warrant a real "fix". Just kept it tuned and balanced it it was OK. It was noticeable around town in 4th but on the open road it was just fine.

 

Fast forward to this year when I bought an '02 R1150RT with 13,000Km on the clock and absolutely spotless. The cleanest used bike I ever saw. I bought the bike and on the first long trip (700Km) on long open freeway discovered that I had an arm wrenching surger, a real dog...

 

I had my mechanic do a throttle body balance, valve adjustment, end play and all the goodies that could be done. No difference, if anything, worse.

 

I added a Techlusion 1031 which solved the surging (mostly). At worst it's better than the old R1100RT but not completely "cured". Good enough though.

 

Recently, the bike has begun to lose idle speed. It's hard to warm up whilst I put my helmet and gloves on and even when warm, it wants idle at or around 500rpm, at best, 600rpm. Sometimes, arriving at traffic lights or a roundabout, it wants to stall or cut out due to the idle speed.

 

Power is great. On the open road it has more power than before the fitting of the Techlusion and it runs smoothly and well. Idle is a whole different ballgame.

 

I've ordered a TwinMax to balance the throttle bodies myself as I just can't afford to keep throwing $400 bucks a throw to my dealer just to adjust idle speed and balance the throttle bodies. Cost of ownership so far has been astronomical... I could have bought a new R1200RT for what I've thrown at this bike.

 

TwinMax is about to arrive and I'm looking forward to chasing the issues myself. I may be kidding myself and about to enter a whole new dimension of motorcycle hell.

 

Could anyone shed any light as to why this bike would suddenly lose idle speed so rapidly?

 

I just did a 1500Km trip through the mountains and the problem was much worse. back at sea level, it began to idle better (although not at the recommended rate). I think that the higher level above sea level upset it somewhat...

 

Do these rantings mean anything to anyone? Anyone experienced anything like this previously? Any tips please.

 

Regards,

 

Linz

[DrPaul]

Linz,

Are you noticing a loss of low end power as well as the low idle RPM? Did this begin with the installation of the Techlusion? Is it harder to start? Are you using the same grade of fuel as before?

[Ken H.]

The first thing to take a look at is plugged air bypass ports. The large brass screws on each throttle body. Take them out and clean them and the port. Then re-install them at 1 1/2 turns out each. You will have to re-sync the bike though after having done so, there's just no way around that.

 

Do a search here on "manometer" and you will find several threads on how to construct a fluid manometer for doing sync. yourself for under $US10.

[T__]

OK, I have twenty years experience with Beemers so I'm no newbie but I have an issue with my bike that is difficult to work out.

 

My previous R1100RT (first model released) surged but not badly enough to warrant a real "fix". Just kept it tuned and balanced it it was OK. It was noticeable around town in 4th but on the open road it was just fine.

 

Fast forward to this year when I bought an '02 R1150RT with 13,000Km on the clock and absolutely spotless. The cleanest used bike I ever saw. I bought the bike and on the first long trip (700Km) on long open freeway discovered that I had an arm wrenching surger, a real dog...

 

I had my mechanic do a throttle body balance, valve adjustment, end play and all the goodies that could be done. No difference, if anything, worse.

 

I added a Techlusion 1031 which solved the surging (mostly). At worst it's better than the old R1100RT but not completely "cured". Good enough though.

 

Recently, the bike has begun to lose idle speed. It's hard to warm up whilst I put my helmet and gloves on and even when warm, it wants idle at or around 500rpm, at best, 600rpm. Sometimes, arriving at traffic lights or a roundabout, it wants to stall or cut out due to the idle speed.

 

Power is great. On the open road it has more power than before the fitting of the Techlusion and it runs smoothly and well. Idle is a whole different ballgame.

 

I've ordered a TwinMax to balance the throttle bodies myself as I just can't afford to keep throwing $400 bucks a throw to my dealer just to adjust idle speed and balance the throttle bodies. Cost of ownership so far has been astronomical... I could have bought a new R1200RT for what I've thrown at this bike.

 

TwinMax is about to arrive and I'm looking forward to chasing the issues myself. I may be kidding myself and about to enter a whole new dimension of motorcycle hell.

 

Could anyone shed any light as to why this bike would suddenly lose idle speed so rapidly?

 

I just did a 1500Km trip through the mountains and the problem was much worse. back at sea level, it began to idle better (although not at the recommended rate). I think that the higher level above sea level upset it somewhat...

 

Do these rantings mean anything to anyone? Anyone experienced anything like this previously? Any tips please.

 

Regards,

 

Linz

 

 

 

 

Lindsay, you could have one or more of many possible problems..

 

I guess if it were my bike I would start with the 02 sensor.. It’s possible that has become lazy or inop.. Your Techlusion adds fuel across the board but at or below 1500 RPM’s the Motronic pulls that added fuel back out in response to the 02 sensor.. If for some reason the 02 isn’t functioning at full crossover operation that added fuel could overburden the idle function.. Either turn off the Techlusion (or at least the Green fuel-add pot) to see if the idle gets better.. Or better yet splice into the black 02 output wire & use a voltmeter on the 02 output to see if it is fully functional..

 

Next, make sure your TPS is operating properly & not staying above .4 volts at idle.. While the 1150 TPS system is adaptive it still has to see under threshold voltage to know it’s at idle.. Maybe try a computer reset here also (pull #5 fuse for 30 seconds then re-install the fuse, key up then fully open the throttle a couple of times)..

 

It might not hurt to pull the brass idle by-pass screws & clean both the screw tips & the air passage seat below the brass screws (plugging by-pass passages can really skew your base idle) ..

 

Make sure your exhaust hasn’t come loose & allowing air to enter at the Cat to front pipe joint (will skew the 02 sensor reading at idle)..

 

Make sure both TBI units track smoothly with no cable hang ups or stones in the cable tracks..

 

Make darn sure your fuel tank is venting properly & that the Evap can isn’t plugged off (any vacuum on the fuel tank when the cap is opened after a long ride?)

 

Make sure the fuel tank return hose hasn’t become disconnected at the quick disconnect or is pinched off & forcing high fuel pressure..

 

As a last resort see if the Motronic pressure sensor has dirt or a bug in it (can alter the fuel chart in relation to atmospheric pressure) .. Still should idle OK if the 02 is functional though..

 

What CCP are you using? Different CCP’s alter the off idle open/close loop threshold..

 

Has your problem been there through multi tanks of fuel? If only the last tank full maybe suspect a load of bad gasoline..

 

Other than that do the basics,, like new spark plugs,, turn the Techlusion off (or better yet disconnect it) ,, run a hot compression check,, check the running fuel pressure,, verify 02 function (especially at idle),, look for intake air leaks (use an unlit propane torch),, monitor TPS voltage sweep,, etc..

 

Twisty

[boatzo]

Have you checked all 4 spark plugs and also make sure the proper type plugs are installed? I can't remember for sure, but I think the secondary plugs are a different type? I may be wrong on that.

 

Good luck.

[Agent_Orange]

Darn. I feel cheated. My '02' only has two plugs.

[Linz]

To clarify, I've had around 4000Km of "normal" behavior from the bike since the Techlusion was fitted. The bike has ridden like a new one and the slow idle problem has only just started. It did get progressively slower though, almost like each ride it lost a 100rpm until it's settled into this 500-600rpm range.

 

This model Techlusion (1031) requires unplugging the 02 sensor so I'm unsure if the recommendations to check it are relevant. Comment please?

 

I haven't changed fuel and it's had this behaviour on probably 7 or so tanks of fuel.

 

Some of the suggestions here are really great but it looks like a dealer job again as I'm just not that talented where mechanical issues are concerned...

 

I'll wait until the TwinMax arrives so that I can see what that might show up. After that it's chequebook time again

 

Linz

[Tipover_Bob]

Linz:

Looking at other responses, I am wondering if you could just have a fouled spark plug. I hate messing with spark plugs because of worry about stripping the threads in the aluminum head. However, it might be worth a try. Just check the plugs, but be very careful to not over torque them when replacing them.

Tipover Bob

[mrduck]

Far fetched idea here but have ya checked the airbox and intake lately? Mebbe some critter crawled in and made a home? It is springtime for ya'll about now isn't it?

 

 

 

[T__]

To clarify, I've had around 4000Km of "normal" behavior from the bike since the Techlusion was fitted. The bike has ridden like a new one and the slow idle problem has only just started. It did get progressively slower though, almost like each ride it lost a 100rpm until it's settled into this 500-600rpm range.

 

This model Techlusion (1031) requires unplugging the 02 sensor so I'm unsure if the recommendations to check it are relevant. Comment please?

 

I haven't changed fuel and it's had this behaviour on probably 7 or so tanks of fuel.

 

Some of the suggestions here are really great but it looks like a dealer job again as I'm just not that talented where mechanical issues are concerned...

 

I'll wait until the TwinMax arrives so that I can see what that might show up. After that it's chequebook time again

 

Linz

 

Linz, OK you really do have the 1031 unit.. I figured you had the 1032 & just called it the 1031.. Very few people use the 1030/1031 on the later 1150 BMW’s as without the 02 sensor operational the Cat converter can over fuel at idle if the Green pot is set too rich..

 

Yes, disregard the part I posted about the 02 sensor check as that is now non operational..

 

You still might have a failing 1031 unit.. The early Techlusions didn’t have a sealed electronics board in them & were prone to acting weird if any water got into the box.. The later units had a different design plastic box & a sealed board..

 

I guess I would say you should still try disconnecting the Techlusion & plugging the 02 back in.. If that cures your idle problem then send the box back to Dobeck Performance.. Those units are guaranteed for a long time.. They will test your unit & replace it if defective.. With your engine dropping a little more idle RPM as you ride it,, disconnecting the box & connecting the 02 would be a good place to start troubleshooting..

 

It would still be a good idea to pull the brass air by-pass screws & clean the screw tips & passages in the TBI units..

 

Twisty

[Willie]

I second the option of completely unhooking the 1031. I had trouble with a 1032 that, even when turned off at the box, still caused a problem. Disconnecting it would solve the problem I was having. Can you control the quality/speed of your idle by adjsuting the green fuel pot? I currently am in the middle of troubleshooting my bike and can slightly impact my idle by adjsuting th egreen on my 1032. Do you get a stumble in the engine when first riding off after starting up with a warm engine? Anyway, the first thing I would do is yank the 1031, connect the O2 back up, and see if the problem is still there. Dobeck will help you if needed, but absolutely make sure that the bike is in a fine state of tune before drawing conclusions about the 1031 being bad. Brass air screws should be 1 1/2 turns out and clean and make sure the throttle cable adjusters are seated in the whole way while you're doing your TBS.

[BigAL]

How about this (as I'm a relative newbie, but have been reading threads about these surging problems) --

 

You've put on 4000km since the last adjustments and now it's beginning to give problems? Maybe it's time for another careful and correct valve adjustment, and throttle body sync. I've read in a few places here that the dealers and other pro mechanics don't always do the very best job (as they're under time constraints, and you as owner might be willing to put in the extra effort to get it 'just right'). Maybe it just needs to be readjusted......

 

GL getting it right!

[DrPaul]

Do you get a stumble in the engine when first riding off after starting up with a warm engine?

 

Absolutely! This started right after my Techlusion R259 installation. Only lasts a few seconds so I haven't spent a lot of time thinking about it but it's interesting that you have experienced the same. Have you fixed it?

[Linz]

I appreciate all of the well thought out replies. I have plenty to go on with now and I'll do some tests to see if I can source the problem.

 

I'm going to begin with the throttle body balance, clean the Big Brass Screws, check the valves etc. I'll also play with the green pot on the 1031.

 

When I first fitted the Techlusion, it needed to be set to the 4 o'clock position to stop it surging. That was at around 14,000Km and now, at almost 20,000Km it seems not to require so much and I turned it back to 3 o'clock when the idle thing started to appear. This did improve the idle speed slightly and the surging is no worse.

 

I'd heard that these bad surgers (and this was a pig) got better as they ran up the miles and this does seem to be the case with this bike. I'd like to get it to the stage where I could put it back to stock. My R1100RT surged slightly and if the 1150 did that, it would still be acceptable.

 

I don't have a stumble. In fact, as soon as the bike is off and running, it runs just fine and much stronger the pre-techlusion fitment.

 

I suspect that the valves and throttle body balance is off a little but after 4000Km, that's a lot of adjustment to lose in a short time...

 

I just hope that this settles down as the bike runs in more and requires less attention. I kinda like *riding* the bike and am not a lover of just owning it to fiddle with it constantly.

 

I'll report back to let you all know how it went. Gotta get that TwinMax in the mail before we can do anything though.

 

Cheers to all.

 

Linz

[Tipover_Bob]

Linz:

I know you will like the "Twin-Max" but let me tell you the home-made thingy using fish aquarium air line tubing and a yardstick and auto transmission fluid is very, very good and dead accurate and sensitive. I made my for about $3 and it hangs near where I park the bike and can be hooked up in a second. I balanced mine and in 3000 miles it hasn't changed hardly at all. The balance appeared to reduce the surging to almost undetectable.

Tipover Bob

[Linz]

Hi Bob.

Yes, I am aware of your unit and plan to build one myself. Apparently, hooking up to your device after a TwinMax balance really allows the perfect balance to occur.

I've already ordered the Twinmax and it's on it's way to me now. I'll use whatever I need to get the results I want.

 

I'm retiring from full time work in the next two years and I just will not have the cash to throw at dealers to keep the bike right so I'm getting up to speed now (beginning now) to maintain the bike myself. It will have to go otherwise...

 

Thanks for your input.

 

Linz

[Capt_Ron]

Bob,

 

Where can I get more info on this "home-made thingy" of which you speak?

 

Ron

[BigAL]

Linz:

I know you will like the "Twin-Max" but let me tell you the home-made thingy using fish aquarium air line tubing and a yardstick and auto transmission fluid is very, very good and dead accurate and sensitive. ... I balanced mine and in 3000 miles it hasn't changed hardly at all. .Tipover Bob

 

And you attribute the fact that you used a homemade vaccuum balancer to the throttle bodies staying in balance ?

[Tipover_Bob]

And you attribute the fact that you used a homemade vaccuum balancer to the throttle bodies staying in balance ?

 

Al:

No, I attribute the fact that once balanced a bike has a tendency to stay in balance to the quality of the bike, insinuating to a newer guy like myself, that once one does this balancing act one doesn't have to keep doing it continuously. But then again, I did do a good job, and the equipment was so elegant (cheap) it must support your point. After all, many old timers, and I guess I am right in there on this, believe their own way of doing things is better than the new way (high tech). I certainly can attest to this even though I learned how to make the balancing rig on this site just a couple of months ago, lol.

Tipover Bob

[Linz]

I have the TwinMax, I saw the posts about the Autolite spark plugs and as we don't have those here (that I could find), I ordered 8 from overseas.

I needed the Wurth feeler gauges so that I could check both valves at the same time easily so ordered those. I'm going to get into this bike next weekend.

 

My question now is, I see references to "checking the TPS sweep". I'm just positive that somewhere on this forum, this must have been discussed to death previously but if it has, I can't find it.

 

Can anyone tell me the "guts" of what checking the TPS sweep means please.

 

Please answer as if you're explaining to a child. Assume nothing. If you have pictures or a list of exactly what I need, how I do the checking and even more importantly, how I adjust the TPS sweep if it doesn't fit the specs...

 

If anyone has an image of this being done, it would be wonderful.

 

Sorry to be a pain but I need to learn this stuff so that I'm independant from my dealer.

 

My gratitude for the help so far. Great forum with awesome knowledge base.

 

Cheers,

 

Linz

[Linz]

Also...how on earth do you tell which is fuse 5 to "reset the computer".

 

My eyesight isn't what it was but I can't find anything written on any of the fuses which would indicate that it was Fuse 5.

 

I know, I'm a pest but I can learn very quickly and then get on with life, sharing asI go. Done it all my life.

 

Cheers,

 

Linz

[SWB]

Also...how on earth do you tell which is fuse 5 to "reset the computer".

 

My eyesight isn't what it was but I can't find anything written on any of the fuses which would indicate that it was Fuse 5.

 

I know, I'm a pest but I can learn very quickly and then get on with life, sharing asI go. Done it all my life.

 

Cheers,

 

Linz

 

Far left is fuse #1, far right is #10. Count left to right.

 

See attached.

[Linz]

Many thanks for the image.

 

Linz

[Ken H.]

Can anyone tell me the "guts" of what checking the TPS sweep means please.

 

Please answer as if you're explaining to a child. Assume nothing. If you have pictures or a list of exactly what I need, how I do the checking and even more importantly, how I adjust the TPS sweep if it doesn't fit the specs...

Throttle Position Sensor. It is a black box located on the left throttle body. It electronically is a potentiometer. A variable resistor. It’s resistance changes as the throttle body opens. Think of an old style volume control on an old stereo, radio or something where you rotate a knob to change the volume. (Quaint idea, I know.) Same principle.

 

When we check the sweep of the TPS we hook up an analog ohm meter (the kind with a needle) and as the throttle is slowly opened we look for ‘dead’ spots in it. Spots where it’s resistance suddenly jumps. If found this will send a faulse signal to the Motronic messing up the fuel delivery amount.

 

Having said all that, your symptoms don't fit this possibilty as a TPS with a bad spot will show up at the exact throttle postion each and every time.

[BMW_Ken]

On the way back from the MOA rally this summer, my 2004 R1150RT suddenly dropped 50rpm at idle and was idling very rough. At times I had to work the throttle to keep it idling at a stop.

 

Upon returning home, I did a 24k mile tuneup including a valve adjust and throttle body sync as it was due based on the mileage. This did not help my poor idle.

 

After some additional searching and trouble shooting, my problem turned out to be a spark plug coil (the stick coil that goes over the spark plug). Idled great after changing the coil on the right side.

 

Good luck.

[T__]

On the way back from the MOA rally this summer, my 2004 R1150RT suddenly dropped 50rpm at idle and was idling very rough. At times I had to work the throttle to keep it idling at a stop.

 

Upon returning home, I did a 24k mile tuneup including a valve adjust and throttle body sync as it was due based on the mileage. This did not help my poor idle.

 

After some additional searching and trouble shooting, my problem turned out to be a spark plug coil (the stick coil that goes over the spark plug). Idled great after changing the coil on the right side.

 

Good luck.

 

Ken, he has a 2002, 1150 & that is a single spark engine (no stick coils)..

 

Twisty

[Linz]

Thanks for that explanation.

 

Valves and Throttle Body Balance it is then. Let's hope it goes smoothly.

 

I appreciate the input.

 

Linz