R1200xx FD Failure Rate Poll. All R1200xx Owners Please Reply!

[s3steve]

If you own or have owned a BMW '05, '06 or '07 R1200GS/GSA/RT/ST/S/R please vote.

[StretchMark]

RightSpin has already done some of this.

Link Here

[s3steve]

RightSpin has already done some of this.

 

It's a little dated. Feb. '05. Not enough info on the R1200xx at that point. I'm not interested in the older model FD failure rate. That's why I posted this in the Hexhead section.

But thanks for the info!

[Mr_Ed]

I think you're making a mistake by not taking into account mileage and year of purchase data.

[s3steve]

I think you're making a mistake by not taking into account mileage and year of purchase data.

 

It would take a number of polls and questions to do that. Besides some people have said they have had a FD failure with a very low mileage bike.

 

This is just to get a general idea. It may help some people to make up there mind on a new BMW or maybe buy something else.

It may increase the FD hysteria or may relieve some peoples minds and just ride the darn thing!

 

Lets just see how it all turns out.

[DonB]

8000 Miles on 07 RT, no problems.

[keithb]

24,000 miles on an 05 RT, no problems w/FD

[ScottT]

43,000 miles and counting with no failure. Right-side seal did develope a slow leak and was replaced around 35k under warranty. I have changed the oil my self twice. First time at 30k, second at 40k. First change oil was a bit cloudy with fine metal particles I think. Last change the oil looked as if it came straight out of the bottle. It was that clean.

[EffBee]

Put 90,000 miles on my RT. No failure. Changed the FD oil with BMW Synthetic every 6K (takes 10 minutes, two 70-cent crush washers, and one-fourth of a quart of syn lube probably worth $5) and it was always clean.

[Don_Eilenberger]

Steve - great idea. If people want to tell more about their non-failure or failure - they can leave a message. The simplicity of the poll means you might actually get some data. I've forwarded the link to the IBMWR mailing list - where there has been a LOT of discussion and hand wringing over the two FD failures in the Iron Butt on Hexheads..

 

BTW - at 7,000 miles my R1200R drive seems just fine. Oil was changed as scheduled at around 450 miles (a tiny bit early 600 mile service - but I was leaving on a long trip..)

[RoyTemple]

17,500 on my 05. No failure yet!

[jsmith]

No FD failure yet (knocks on wood, crosses fingers and says silent prayer to the mechanical Gods), but I did have the gearbox seal problem.

 

Forgot to mention...06 RT with 30,000km

 

Jim

[Pictou]

20,000kms (12,000 miles) and no problems here. My dealer didn't believe in the lifetime lube thing and changed the final drive oil on all R12 series bikes they sold at the initial 1000km service and then changes it again every 20,000kms thereafter.

[steve.foote]

RightSpin has already done some of this.

 

It's a little dated. Feb. '05. Not enough info on the R1200xx at that point. I'm not interested in the older model FD failure rate. That's why I posted this in the Hexhead section.

But thanks for the info!

 

Actually, it's updated to May 07. You will need to collect quite a bit more data to make your poll meaningful. Mileage, SN, type and date of failure will be necessary to correlate the results in a manner which will illustrate the problem. At best, I was able to only spot some vague patterns with about 100 failures reported.

 

There are simply not enough owners represented here to develop an accurate survey.

[s3steve]

 

 

It's a little dated. Feb. '05. Not enough info on the R1200xx at that point. I'm not interested in the older model FD failure rate. That's why I posted this in the Hexhead section.

But thanks for the info!

 

 

 

Actually, it's updated to May 07. You will need to collect quite a bit more data to make your poll meaningful. Mileage, SN, type and date of failure will be necessary to correlate the results in a manner which will illustrate the problem. At best, I was able to only spot some vague patterns with about 100 failures reported.

 

Is this the complete data set up '07 you have?

 

http://www.rightspin.com/mc/misc/mpfs/mpfs.htm

 

I don't see any R1200xx in the report?

[kopov260]

29K on my 05'ST. No failure.

[RichEdwards]

41K miles on my 1200GS. I changed the final drive fluid at about 36K miles and the old fluid looked just like the fresh, new stuff I put in.

[Roadwolf]

06 R1200RT 7800 miles since new in Feb... running great!

[Kitsap]

I replied no failure. The outboard seal began to leak at 15K and was replaced under warranty, I consider that a failure.

 

For reference I replaced the FD fluid with Redline Shockproof at 1500 miles and have not touched it since nearing 18K. Many commuter as well as long, high speed miles on the clock.

 

One other observation, when I did the initial lube change there was no visible metal remnants in the fluid. I passed the original fluid through a filter at work and was amazed how "clean" it was. Others have noted quite a bit of debri during their first change leaving me to wonder about the assembly process and/or metal quality of their specific units.

 

As part of my normal work I perform failure analysis and investigation of these types of events, it sure would be nice to see BMWs analysis results. Without them we're all guessing as to causation.

[steve.foote]

Is this the complete data set up '07 you have?

 

http://www.rightspin.com/mc/misc/mpfs/mpfs.htm

 

I don't see any R1200xx in the report?

 

That's all of it up to that point. No R1200 failures have been reported to me. This may be due to the original thread having been started in the Oilhead forum. I also didn't get very many K-bike reports.

[JohnBeaven]

32000km on my '05 R1200RT with no failure.

 

FD oil was changed at the 30000km service. The dealer tech. told me that although the oil change was not necessary it was probably a good idea...

[bakerzdosen]

17,500m on my 05 ST. No failures other than the tires and oil need needing to be changed every 6k or so.

[Twisties]

I agree this poll is as good as the board facilities will support. I also agree that the survey as posted is more likely to be misleading than informative.

 

I had considered posting a poll but did not because I couldn't figure out how to structure it properly. Did not know about Rightspin's survey for the reasons he cites.

 

Although it will never be statistically valid, collecting data is not a bad thing. We need some real visibility for Rightspin's post, and to encourage everyone with a drive train failure to report to him regardless of model type. I would encourage an administrator to make Rightspin's thread sticky post in all four wrenching forums, if Rightspin is willing to handle all the reports he gets.

[Swag]

15k on my 07 RT no problem with F/D dealer changed oil at 600 mile service.

[noel]

'05 RT with 16000 miles. I did have the FD oil changed at 7.5K.

[marcopolo]

My FD failed at 38,000 kms (22,500 miles) on my '06 RT. Problem was not fluid or bearing-related. Splines on axle tube, and rotor flange, wore down creating significant play in rear wheel. From "no play" to "significant play" happened relatively quickly on a long road trip. Warranty repair; off road two days; parts/labour would have been $2000 USD said dealer. Invoice showed 9 1/2 hrs labour. Parts included final drive, rear rotor, and all lug nuts.

[Jim VonBaden]

37K miles on my 12GS, and 23K miles on Tina's 12ST, NO failures.

 

I only know one guy out of about 40 who have had a 12 series FD failure. No idea of total miles, but likely 400K miles all in all.

 

Jim

[Jim VonBaden]

My FD failed at 38,000 kms (22,500 miles) on my '06 RT. Problem was not fluid or bearing-related. Splines on axle tube, and rotor flange, wore down creating significant play in rear wheel. From "no play" to "significant play" happened relatively quickly on a long road trip. Warranty repair; off road two days; parts/labour would have been $2000 USD said dealer. Invoice showed 9 1/2 hrs labour. Parts included final drive, rear rotor, and all lug nuts.

 

9.5 hours labor to replace a final drive?

 

Damn, I am absolutely certain I could do it in about an hour. Add another hour for diagnostics at most.

 

Jim

[Firefight911]

My FD failed at 38,000 kms (22,500 miles) on my '06 RT. Problem was not fluid or bearing-related. Splines on axle tube, and rotor flange, wore down creating significant play in rear wheel. From "no play" to "significant play" happened relatively quickly on a long road trip. Warranty repair; off road two days; parts/labour would have been $2000 USD said dealer. Invoice showed 9 1/2 hrs labour. Parts included final drive, rear rotor, and all lug nuts.

 

9.5 hours labor to replace a final drive?

 

Damn, I am absolutely certain I could do it in about an hour. Add another hour for diagnostics at most.

 

Jim

 

Darn you!!! Beat me to it. I was thinking the same thing.

[marcopolo]

My FD failed at 38,000 kms (22,500 miles) on my '06 RT. Problem was not fluid or bearing-related. Splines on axle tube, and rotor flange, wore down creating significant play in rear wheel. From "no play" to "significant play" happened relatively quickly on a long road trip. Warranty repair; off road two days; parts/labour would have been $2000 USD said dealer. Invoice showed 9 1/2 hrs labour. Parts included final drive, rear rotor, and all lug nuts.

 

9.5 hours labor to replace a final drive?

 

Damn, I am absolutely certain I could do it in about an hour. Add another hour for diagnostics at most.

 

Jim

 

Darn you!!! Beat me to it. I was thinking the same thing.

 

That's what I thought too, at the time. I assume this is what BMW allows and is what they would have reimbursed the dealer. The dealership (Salt Lake City) also told me the job was $2,000 in total. Once you deduct the cost of the FD, rotor, and lug nuts, that would seem to make the 9 1/2 hrs fit. All I know is that it was covered by warranty, thank god. This was not the first one of this type of failure that this dealer had repaired on an R12 bike. As I've pointed out before, this exact failure is the subject of a TSB for the R1200GS (probably because no other hexheads had been released for sale at the time the TSB originally came out).

[motoguy128]

Come-on folks...where are all of those failures??? Hmmm... we seem to be hovering at 3-5%, about what some older surveys has estimated.

 

Sheesh, 4%-5... I can live with that, espcially if it's likely to occur under warranty.

[Stan Walker]

Your poll is being distorted (not that any internet poll can be trusted).

 

A link to it has been posted on other internet BMW groups (IBMWR for sure). That may suck in additional "failure" reports but is less likely to collect additional "good" FD reports.

 

So take this 4 percent number with an extra large grain of salt.

 

Stan

[Rocket_Cowboy]

2006 R1200RT. Purchased last Oct 31st. ~19,400 miles on the odo, impending final drive failure is in progress.

 

FD oil was changed at 12K and it's condition raised a good bit of concern from both the mechanic and the service manager. At 19K when I had tires mounted, the FD oil was changed again, looked even worse, and has metal in it. Service manager has a call into BMWNA to authorize FD replacement.

 

There is no outward sign of problems. There is no play in the rear wheel. There is no fluid leak on the FD. There is no grinding noise. But something is getting eaten up inside as evidenced by the metal shavings in the oil and overall poor condition of the FD oil when it's drained. The only reason I had them change the FD oil at the 12K service was because BMW had changed the lifetime "no-maintenance" claim on the final drives just before, so since it wasn't changed at 600 miles as they are now asking, I had it changed at the next available service.

 

Once we get the approval from BMWNA, we'll start disecting the FD to see what the culprit is.

[Paul Mihalka]

2005 R1200GS bought used with 9,000, now has 22K. No failure (of any kind)... liar, one headlight bulb...

[Richard G]

2005 RT 7000 miles. Bought new May 05.

Had the rear fluid changed at dealer for 6000 mile checkup.

So far no problems.

 

Rich

[smiller]

That may suck in additional "failure" reports but is less likely to collect additional "good" FD reports.

Normally perhaps, but maybe not in this case. From what I've been reading on the Internet there seems to be just as much an axe to grind by those who want to prove there is no problem as those suggesting that there is.

[Gkgeiger]

My '05 has 36k and no FD failure.

[Twisties]

Come-on folks...where are all of those failures??? Hmmm... we seem to be hovering at 3-5%, about what some older surveys has estimated.

 

Sheesh, 4%-5... I can live with that, espcially if it's likely to occur under warranty.

 

Actually, 4 to 5% is at the high end of the range of estimates we've discussed in the threads in this board, although it is consistent with polling rates on advrider and bmwlt. If you are happy with that rate then .

 

Personally, if the number of premature FD failures is anywhere near that rate I'd be horrified. Consider, the last reported case, Linky FD on fire clearly shows that this is a safety issue, as if the evidence for that wasn't already clear! Imagine if that aluminum alloy metal had ignited?

[Bheckel169]

06 1200 Rt and no failure after 9,000 + miles. But I'm just about to sell it because of the **** gas gauge. Talk about a shoddy bike!

Bruce

[Limecreek]

looked even worse, and has metal in it.

 

Sorry to hear about your terminal FD.

 

How much metal are we talking about? Can you describe it for us--size, amount, was it suspended in the fluid, color? Thx.

 

I've noted a small amount of metal suspended in the used FD fluid from my R12RT during both fluid changes (9,800 miles and 21,000 miles) and considered it normal. I'd like to know what your mechanic views as normal versus abnormal.

 

Oh, yes....2005 R12RT purchased new March '06. No FD failure, or any other failure for that matter.

[Bill Murray]

17k on my '05 R12ST with no FD problems. I did experience a engine main seal leak at 16k (repaired under warranty).

[Jim VonBaden]

That may suck in additional "failure" reports but is less likely to collect additional "good" FD reports.

Normally perhaps, but maybe not in this case. From what I've been reading on the Internet there seems to be just as much an axe to grind by those who want to prove there is no problem as those suggesting that there is.

 

Definitely works both ways. Anyone with any statistical analysis skills and training would tell you that forum and basic internat polls are virtually useless.

 

Testimony is usefull in identifying the types of problems, but again, useless in determining how many or how often.

 

Jim

[xbubblehead]

07 1200rt, on the 600 mile check - I was told the FD oil was changed. Is that new? It was not listed on my 600 mile "check" sheet in the owners' guide. I was told everything looked good - no issues.

[Rocket_Cowboy]

How much metal are we talking about? Can you describe it for us--size, amount, was it suspended in the fluid, color? Thx.

 

I didn't get specifics as to how much metal, but it was described to me as "chunky". I intend to get a better look at things once they start opening things up.

[Rocket_Cowboy]

07 1200rt, on the 600 mile check - I was told the FD oil was changed. Is that new? It was not listed on my 600 mile "check" sheet in the owners' guide. I was told everything looked good - no issues.

 

Yeah, in 2007 BMW issued a tech bulletin now calling for the FD oil to be changed as part of the 600 mile service.

[jaytee]

I feel MUCH better after seeing this poll, even though I know its statistically useless. Less than 5% failure rate seems acceptable. I would assume (but might be incorrect) that it skews to higher mileage units, althoguh a 7 unit sample is pretty small to be inferring that.

 

While 5% is not negligible, its also not the near-guaranteed horror that the boards make it out to be.

 

JT

[artig]

No FD failure on a 1200GS bought new in April '04, now with 54,000km on the clock. Had the FD oil changed some time ago when they fixed the engine seal leaks.

[Marty Hill]

'05 12gs/32k

'05 12gs/21k

'06 12gs/20k

'07 12gs/13k

 

Burned out 2 dip beam bulbs. Is the sky falling?

[Philippe]

No faillures on a R1200ST '05, did 37000 KM without any problems untill car ran it of the road. Bike is total loss since a few weeks. Ordered R1200RT last week.

[Bullett]

'07 RT delivered to me on May 18, 2007. Final drive fluid changed at 600 mile service. 6663 miles to date, no problems so far.