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Another Trans problem near 100k


Flyer5

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I was trying to get the bike ready for the UN . I drained the trans fluid and found these on the drain plug (See attachment)if I can get it posted . Any gurus have an Idea what they are part of . The dont look like bearing or cage material . No,the penny wasn't in there just for size comparison before anyone decides they can't hold back and comment . Could they be just part of the wave washer . I planned on taking the trans out this winter and doing the bearings and clutch . I guess it will be sooner . I don't have any shifting problems I have noticed a slight knock when the bike is in neutral and the clutch is engaged (lever not in ).The fluid came out a nice color no chocolate . It only had 6000 miles on the oil . From the service records I have with the bike fluids were regularly changed prior to my purchase .When I did the fluid change last time everything was good .Thanks, Dave

915417-trans.jpg.90478d393b2720adb0fc0a30f6641df8.jpg

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That's not shim stock material is it?

 

Can't tell , your pic is hazy.

 

My guess tho.

 

You'll probably be into the trans sooner than you think.( Don't go far from home.)

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If you're not experiencing serious symptoms, I'd ride it into the ground before opening it up. Of course, if you're into the clutch area, consider the tranny. For the money and effort involved, and again, considering that you've had no serious symptoms, and that you are a long distance rider, I'd pony up the bucks for an oil analysis. If it comes back clean, ride and forget about it. If it comes back indicating possible problems, schedule your maintenance early, and send your tranny to Bruno or Tom Cutter for rebuild and gear under cutting. It'll come back better than new. Mine did. grin.gif

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russell_bynum
Well, anyway, 100k miles out of the tranny isn't bad. Freshen it up and you will be good for another 100k.

 

310K on my BMW car transmission without a rebuild.

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I was trying to get the bike ready for the UN . I drained the trans fluid and found these on the drain plug (See attachment)if I can get it posted . Any gurus have an Idea what they are part of . The dont look like bearing or cage material . No,the penny wasn't in there just for size comparison before anyone decides they can't hold back and comment . Could they be just part of the wave washer . I planned on taking the trans out this winter and doing the bearings and clutch . I guess it will be sooner . I don't have any shifting problems I have noticed a slight knock when the bike is in neutral and the clutch is engaged (lever not in ).The fluid came out a nice color no chocolate . It only had 6000 miles on the oil . From the service records I have with the bike fluids were regularly changed prior to my purchase .When I did the fluid change last time everything was good .Thanks, Dave

 

Dave, the picture is kind of blurry & gets worse if enlarged.. Difficult to define the bits you have pictured.. Put a magnet to them & see if they are magnetic.. If so they probably mean something,, if not they could be pieces of case casting.. Any chance they were introduced at a trans oil change? (dirty funnel or dirty container)..

 

Twisty

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Dave, the picture is kind of blurry & gets worse if enlarged.. Difficult to define the bits you have pictured.. Put a magnet to them & see if they are magnetic.. If so they probably mean something,, if not they could be pieces of case casting.. Any chance they were introduced at a trans oil change? (dirty funnel or dirty container)..

 

Twisty

 

They are magnetic as they were stuck to the drain plug .I dont use a funnel to fill the trans ,I have a pump for putting it in and it was definatly clean . I will try to get a better pic .Thanks,Dave

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If you're not experiencing serious symptoms, I'd ride it into the ground before opening it up. Of course, if you're into the clutch area, consider the tranny. For the money and effort involved, and again, considering that you've had no serious symptoms, and that you are a long distance rider, I'd pony up the bucks for an oil analysis. If it comes back clean, ride and forget about it. If it comes back indicating possible problems, schedule your maintenance early, and send your tranny to Bruno or Tom Cutter for rebuild and gear under cutting. It'll come back better than new. Mine did. grin.gif

 

 

I like your thinking ,I would like to get it to the UN ,rather not cage my way there ,I will drain the oil again after some light riding and see what I find . There was not a lot of metal fillings on the plug actually it was surprisingly clean except for these three pieces .

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I'm guessing (guessing be the operative word) with Seth that it is parts of a failed anti-rattle wavy washer. It in itself is not fatal, but I'd sure like to know where the rest of it is. Hopefully laying harmlessly in the bottom.

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I'm guessing (guessing be the operative word) with Seth that it is parts of a failed anti-rattle wavy washer. It in itself is not fatal, but I'd sure like to know where the rest of it is. Hopefully laying harmlessly in the bottom.
I'm going to take it for a little ride tomorrow and drain the fluid again hopefully they are there .Unfortunately when I drained the trans the drain pan already had engine oil and final drive oil in it so I couldnt see if any more was there . Dave
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Well it's almost certainly not part of an adjusting shim as the way the transmission is put together that would be somewhere between incredibly unlikely and impossible, and any production casting bits that are ever going to come off would probably be gone by 100k miles, so my guess remains the wave washer. If so the transmission could probably run without it for quite a while/forever so a repair probably isn't urgent, but at 100k on the original clutch and tranny I'd get in there sooner or later and do some maintenance. Too bad that it isn't a BMW car transmission as I hear they last longer.

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Well it's almost certainly not part of an adjusting shim as the way the transmission is put together that would be somewhere between incredibly unlikely and impossible, and any production casting bits that are ever going to come off would probably be gone by 100k miles, so my guess remains the wave washer. If so the transmission could probably run without it for quite a while/forever so a repair probably isn't urgent, but at 100k on the original clutch and tranny I'd get in there sooner or later and do some maintenance. Too bad that it isn't a BMW car transmission as I hear they last longer.
The clutch seems solid so I am not to concerned .I am not sure if I should chance the trans issue .I had a quad trans lock up on me a 50mph and that wasn't fun ,I would hate to even think what would happen with two wheels . I really want to ride to the rally not drive . I planned on pulling the bike apart over the winter anyway to do the clutch and check the trans .Looks like it may be sooner . I agree if it is the thrust washer it is not a problem just more noise .I guess I will see tomorrow when I drain the fluid again. Dave
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If it comes back indicating possible problems, schedule your maintenance early, and send your tranny to Bruno or Tom Cutter for rebuild and gear under cutting. It'll come back better than new. Mine did. grin.gif

Sadly, it looks like mine is going to need to be built. Any contact info for either of these guys? Any idea how much a rebuild is going to set me back? Thanks!

 

 

Sorry, for the threadjack!

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If it comes back indicating possible problems, schedule your maintenance early, and send your tranny to Bruno or Tom Cutter for rebuild and gear under cutting. It'll come back better than new. Mine did. grin.gif

Sadly, it looks like mine is going to need to be built. Any contact info for either of these guys? Any idea how much a rebuild is going to set me back? Thanks!

 

 

Sorry, for the threadjack!

 

Depends on what's required in replacement parts, and how much work you can do yourself. The "intermediate gear" set alone is $1000, and although considered unrebuildable by BMW, Tom Cutter was able to rebuild mine from used parts.

 

My BMW dealer's estimate was $3300 for the rebuild alone. You can purchase a factory rebuilt transmission for $2100 from Chicago BMW (as I recall; double check). Mine was rebuilt by Tom Cutter for something around $1200-$1300 (can't recall exactly, as I paid $1600 but added on a few parts, e.g. neutral switch, clutch piston, oilite bushings for the final drive). Of course, I did the R&R myself.

 

I had one quote of about $500 from a good local independent, just to get the transmission off the bike and to break the case. I believe BMW quoted me about $900 for a clutch job (which is about the same level of labor to R&R the transmission).

 

I've heard of a few guys who did well to pickup a low-mileage used transmission in the $400 to $800 range, and did the R&R themselves.

 

I'd go with Bruno in Canada or Tom Cutter in the Pennsylvania area if I were you. They'll undercut the gears (actually, I understand Tom sends the gears to Bruno for that work), and the transmission will literally shift better than new.

 

Good luck.

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Anton Largiader

The wave washer people are talking about is about 0.5mm thick and 4.5mm wide (41mm OD, 32mm ID). Yes I'm holding one in my hand.. smile.gif That should help you visualize whether or not the bit you found is from that.

 

I frequently see them cracked but I've personally never seen one broken to the point that parts are in the bottom of the tranny. Usually when I see bad ones it's because the input gear is eating into the rear bearing and THAT'S why I have that tranny open. But by the time things have worsened to the point that bearing retainer material is at the bottom of the tranny, there are real driveability problems and the oil comes out burnt.

 

If you have loose metal in the tranny, you need to get it taken care of before it gets expensive. I currently have one complete M97 reworked (ala Bruno) gearset ready to go, with input shaft, and a used black M97 tranny of apparently good heritage. And this perfectly nice wave washer.

 

It would be awesome if all that was needed was the washer. Parts for the M97 input shaft are not available separately, so they have to be scavenged from other dead shafts.

 

Measure your shard and try to post a better pic.

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Usually when I see bad ones it's because the input gear is eating into the rear bearing
Anton, curious if you have any ideas as to what causes this?
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Anton Largiader
Anton, curious if you have any ideas as to what causes this?

Not really. There isn't a whole lot of bearing surface between the two parts, but there must be more to it otherwise they would all fail. Bruno has repaired a few of these by installing a hardened washer. Usually by the time I see them the edges of the gear teeth are eating into the bearing, so it's a bit too late for that repair.

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Bruno has repaired a few of these by installing a hardened washer.
Yes, that is an option I've considered. Whatever is causing the deformation of the bearing inner race seems to be exacerbated by the fact that the gear doesn't make 100% contact over the entire bearing surface, concentrating the force and reforming bot the gear and the bearing.

 

Here is a theory as to what might be happening... would be curious to know what you think of it...

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Anton Largiader
Here is a theory as to what might be happening... would be curious to know what you think of it...

 

Interesting thread. That really destroyed one looks exactly like one I've fixed. On that tranny the oil came out like bubbling tar.

 

No real time to think about it now... but I'll try to get back to this later.

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