How many people here are a members of the AMA?

[Bud]

But then again, I'm in favor of clean air.

 

And yet, you participate in a passtime that is dangerous, impractical, expensive, burns fossil fuels, and pollutes the air for absolutely no reason other than your own personal enjoyment.

 

An inconvenient truth...

 

[Kraynak]

Sorry, that wasn't your point.

Yeah that’s basically was my point it is all relevant. I'm pretty sure that my neighbors SUV sucks down more gas and pollutes more than my Boxer in a year. No matter what the C.A.R.B website says. You have to have a bit of common sense here. Bud it seems like to me you would be the first person to start crying when the government takes your bike away. Maybe riding isn't as important to you but I don't like Golf.

I love how people complain about paying 40 a year, when they spend 15k+ for a bike. Now that’s funny.

 

[Kraynak]

Everyone on this thread is talking about Loud Pipes, and I guess the first thing that comes to mind is a cruiser.

Well that’s not the only thing that the AMA is talking about.

They are also referring to the noise that Dirt bikes make.

Some local/State governments are or have passed a law stating that if you do not own 11 acres or more then you can not ride your bike on your own property.

This is just one case where the AMA took a stance and fought it.

[Bud]

Sorry, that wasn't your point.

Yeah thats basiclly was my point it is all relavant. I'm pretty sure that my neighbors SUV sucks down more gas and pollutes more than my Boxer in a year.No matter what the C.A.R.B website says. You have to have a bit of common sense here. Bud it seems like to me you would be the first person to start crying when the government takes your bike away. Maybe riding isn't as important to you but I don't like Golf.

I love how people complain about paying 40 a year, when they spend 15k+ for a bike. Now thats funny.

 

You may be pretty sure about the pollution of your neighbor's SUV during the year vs your bike and you may be right, I don't know how many miles they ride nor how few you ride. However, there are posts in this thread which support the argument that bikes pollute more, per vehicle, than SUVs.

 

You haven't given one instance where the government is going to take my bike, your bike or anyone else's bike away. My sky is not falling because the government is requiring pollution controls on motorcycles.

 

Now,if you could show the government is trying to take away my motorcycle and the AMA is fighting that attempt, then the AMA would look more attractive than it does now.

 

But other than yourself, I haven't seen another post on this thread where folks think there is a plot or an attempt by the government to take your bike.

 

But, I'm not the brightest bulb on the porch so if someone can show otherwise, I will be the first to admit I was wrong.

 

 

I don't golf either.

 

PS I'm riding a 97 R 1100 RT I bought used last year. Your $15K would buy three of my bikes.

[Bud]

Everyone on this thread is talking about Loud Pipes, and I guess the first thing that comes to mind is a cruiser.

Well that’s not the only thing that the AMA is talking about.

They are also referring to the noise that Dirt bikes make.

Some local/State governments are or have passed a law stating that if you do not own 11 acres or more then you can not ride your bike on your own property.

This is just one case where the AMA took a stance and fought it.

 

Once again, no one is taking anyones bike away. There are lots of restrictions on uses of private property. It would appear that loud pipes pissed off enough people that they convinced legislators to take action.

 

 

BTW What states or local governments took this action. Any names or bill #'s?

[russell_bynum]

BTW What states or local governments took this action. Any names or bill #'s?

 

For starters, Riverside County, CA.

 

http://www.amadirectlink.com/news/2006/Riverside4.asp

[ghaverkamp]

BTW What states or local governments took this action. Any names or bill #'s?

 

For starters, Riverside County, CA.

 

http://www.amadirectlink.com/news/2006/Riverside4.asp

 

Right. So, rather than take a stand and encourage off-road riders to ride quiet machines, they took a stand to permit people to make noise. That is a perfect example of the messed up priorities of the AMA.

[russell_bynum]

BTW What states or local governments took this action. Any names or bill #'s?

 

For starters, Riverside County, CA.

 

http://www.amadirectlink.com/news/2006/Riverside4.asp

 

Right. So, rather than take a stand and encourage off-road riders to ride quiet machines, they took a stand to permit people to make noise. That is a perfect example of the messed up priorities of the AMA.

 

Actually, not. Did you read the article?

 

The AMA recognized the problem and was in support of restricting the noise.

 

What the board did, was place restrictions on riding off-road vehicles on your own property that had absolutely nothing to do with noise.

 

They also put in a new noise ordinance that essentially makes it against the law for people to have a conversation in their back yard. (Depending on zoning, you can't make more than 50, 55, or 75 decibels at your property line. A conversation is 60 decibels.)

 

First of all...we don't have enough land to ride on our own property, so I don't really even have a dog in this fight.

 

But 55Db at the property line seems like an obvious over-reaction.

[Deadboy]

As someone who attended numerous meeting in Riverside I can assure you noise was not the issue (but was a convenient thing to point at). In truth, even when a demonstration was held with bikes and certified (i.e. big $$) sound testing equipment and a highly respected mutually agreed upon sound engineer conducting the tests, that proved the over all background noise levels from numerous other sources at the neighboring properties were in fact higher than the riders bikes, the board of supervisors (a number of whom were in attendance, this was a public demonstration) simply decided that riding was not allowed because of the impact to the environment (but strip malls and tract housing is apparently perfectly acceptable). Remember this is on private property and the riders were (and still are) willing to do dust mitigation and get grading permits….

[Kraynak]

I don't know all the things the AMA stands and would most likely not agree with everything but as time continues on, I'm learning more and more. The fact that someone is looking out for my hobby and lifestyle in my mind is better then sitting back and having the government pass laws under our noses.

If you don't like the AMA, that’s fine. But would love to see everyone that also likes to ride as much as I do (which I know a lot of you do, if not more) would get involved in some form of organized club that shares the same passion as they do.

 

Thanks for letting me disrupt the board for my rant. –Kraynak

[Bud]

BTW What states or local governments took this action. Any names or bill #'s?

 

For starters, Riverside County, CA.

 

http://www.amadirectlink.com/news/2006/Riverside4.asp

 

Right. So, rather than take a stand and encourage off-road riders to ride quiet machines, they took a stand to permit people to make noise. That is a perfect example of the messed up priorities of the AMA.

 

Actually, not. Did you read the article?

 

The AMA recognized the problem and was in support of restricting the noise.

 

What the board did, was place restrictions on riding off-road vehicles on your own property that had absolutely nothing to do with noise.

 

They also put in a new noise ordinance that essentially makes it against the law for people to have a conversation in their back yard. (Depending on zoning, you can't make more than 50, 55, or 75 decibels at your property line. A conversation is 60 decibels.)

 

First of all...we don't have enough land to ride on our own property, so I don't really even have a dog in this fight.

 

But 55Db at the property line seems like an obvious over-reaction.

 

I certainly agree. 55 Db is way too low.

[Bud]

As someone who attended numerous meeting in Riverside I can assure you noise was not the issue (but was a convenient thing to point at). In truth, even when a demonstration was held with bikes and certified (i.e. big $$) sound testing equipment and a highly respected mutually agreed upon sound engineer conducting the tests, that proved the over all background noise levels from numerous other sources at the neighboring properties were in fact higher than the riders bikes, the board of supervisors (a number of whom were in attendance, this was a public demonstration) simply decided that riding was not allowed because of the impact to the environment (but strip malls and tract housing is apparently perfectly acceptable). Remember this is on private property and the riders were (and still are) willing to do dust mitigation and get grading permits….

 

So are you saying that in spite of the AMA, this passed anyway?

[Bud]

I don't know all the things the AMA stands and would most likely not agree with everything but as time continues on, I'm learning more and more. The fact that someone is looking out for my hobby and lifestyle in my mind is better then sitting back and having the government pass laws under our noses.

If you don't like the AMA, that’s fine. But would love to see everyone that also likes to ride as much as I do (which I know a lot of you do, if not more) would get involved in some form of organized club that shares the same passion as they do.

 

Thanks for letting me disrupt the board for my rant. –Kraynak

 

I sure don't consider it either a rant or a disruption. Healthy discussion of issues helps all of us figure out what we really believe in.

 

I appreciate the fact that even though some may think I'm a dumb ass and don't know s*%t, the members of BMW Sport Touring are courteous enough to not make personal attacks.

 

For what it is worth: I admire your willingness to take a stand. Nothing at all wrong with standing up for what you believe and trying to influence others.

 

A much wiser person told me that reasonable people can differ. Unreasonable people shout at each other.

[Deadboy]

I am saying exactly that....despite the AMA’s best efforts to muster the riding community too few local people got involved early in the process and not until the ordinance was passed did they start to realize what this meant and that they would be personally effected....interestingly enough San Bernardino County went through the same type of process and came to a mutually agreeable standard (as did Placer County in NorCal)....you win some you lose some, but at the end of the day the local Riverside riders got screwed and the next generation of young riders will only be left with stories of the "good old days"....sad really, how many of us started out in the backyard on a minibike….the ordinance makes no separation between a 450 MX bike and a PW 50…..apparently all riding is bad and must be stopped….

[ghaverkamp]

Well, silly me. When the AMA itself says, "[w]hile the sound law doesn't specifically target off-highway motorcycles and ATVs, it was written in part as a result of noise complaints about off-highway vehicle riders, and also to address loud music at private parties," why would I possibly imagine that sound was at issue. It is either is, or not only is the AMA ineffectual, but someone's misrepresenting the facts. What happened at the meeting is hardly a surprise; I don't expect much of substance to come from local politicians, outside of perverse grandstanding and corruption.

[grayghost]

My kid doesn't on a Public School bus, when someone besides me is driving him that I don't know. No sense to me sorry. This is another subject all together.

 

Then by your reasoning, join the School Bus Manufacture organization and vote in those who would support mandatory seat belts and their use on school buses. It's a lobby that keeps them from being required and used by children.

 

Some places (NJ) require seat belts in buses, although try to get the kids to wear them. Either the driver would be stopping the bus every 100 ft because "Johnny" took off his seat belt or you would have to have a "seatbelt monitor" on the bus. As an ex-driver I would see kids buckle up but they would leave the seat belt so loose, (that way they could peek around the edge of the seat to have a conversation) that if there was an accident they'd probably be hurt worse than if they weren't belted.

 

As far as the AMA, I'm a life member, at least they are trying to do something.

How many people are aware of whether their health insurance would cover them if they were injured in a "recreational pursuit" such as motorcycle riding, horseback riding, etc?

At least the AMA is trying to do something about this, and some other issues, they advocate "Loud pipes lose rights".

(How many people here have changed the pipes on their BMW?) While it may not be as loud as a straight piped cruiser, (and there are straight pipes for "metric cruisers" not just HD's) it is louder than the manufacturer made and would violate a recent law Denver wanted to enforce.

The AMA lobbies to have roads opened that banned motorcycles, (Lake Drive in Chicago), and other issues affecting motorcyclists. While they can't be "all things to all people" they do seem to try, the magazine isn't that bad. The website has links to members submissions of roads to ride on in different states. (Not a bad thing if your traveling to another state and want to take in some scenic riding). While it may not be the best thing around it really is the only game in town and don't think $40 dollars a year is that bad a deal, (less than $1 a week to help support motorcycling.)

[Deadboy]

Silly isn't the first word that comes to my mind but ok if you want to go with that feel free....

 

There are in fact 2 ordinances that were adopted, one a generic sound ordinance (with amazingly low dB levels) and another targeting OHV use specifically….

[codougd]

The Denver ordinance is even more mind-numbingly stupid that that. The ordinance specifies that, unlike all other motor vehicles, motorcycles must have an EPA sticker of compliance with noise restrictions. This means that, with very few exceptions, all bikes with aftermarket mufflers are in violation of the law. Details here: http://northdenvernews.com/content/view/830/2/

[Ken H.]

How exactly does the helmet law issue impact the non-riding public?

Without (hopefully) turning this into a helmet thread; my short answer is I've never bought into the argument that a decision to wear a helmet or not impacts only the rider/wearer. If a rider kills, or injures them self where they might not of, had they had a helmet on, the impact is far wider than on just themselves. From their family (and often the breadwinner), to friends, to workplace impact, to loss of their contribution potential to society, to increased insurance rates for all of us. And more. No person is an island.

[russell_bynum]

How exactly does the helmet law issue impact the non-riding public?

Without (hopefully) turning this into a helmet thread; my short answer is I've never bought into the argument that a decision to wear a helmet or not impacts only the rider/wearer. If a rider kills, or injures them self where they might not of, had they had a helmet on, the impact is far wider than on just themselves. From their family (and often the breadwinner), to friends, to workplace impact, to loss of their contribution potential to society, to increased insurance rates for all of us. And more. No person is an island.

 

OK. I'm not sure I buy all of that argument, but OK.

 

To me, it seems like that would be fairly far down on the list of priorities. No?

 

It seems to me that the noise issue probably does more damage (at least in terms of public perception) than helmet use. Would you agree with that?

 

As far as the other issues I listed (the stuff I want to see my advocacy group working on)...how do you feel about that stuff?

 

Or maybe to put it another way...what else would you have the AMA (or the motorcycle advocacy group of your choice) do?

[Bud]

The Denver ordinance is even more mind-numbingly stupid that that. The ordinance specifies that, unlike all other motor vehicles, motorcycles must have an EPA sticker of compliance with noise restrictions. This means that, with very few exceptions, all bikes with aftermarket mufflers are in violation of the law. Details here: http://northdenvernews.com/content/view/830/2/

 

If you are interested, there has been a lot of discussion on this forum HERE and most of the responses supported Denver's efforts to curb excessive noise.

[RamblinBoy]

The survey doesn't provide a response for me. I was a long-time AMA member. No more. As much as I love my motorcycle, it is not my life. My politics go far beyond motorcycles. AMA's single-issue support or opposition to political candidates became more than I could stomach. While I, for instance, support the right to choose whether to wear a helmet, among many other AMA issues, I refuse to fund a candidate who supports my helmet view while opposing my much-more-important overall political views.

[Deadboy]

That is in fact a very difficult issue for many groups....you may already know this but the AMA has pulled back from endorsing many races (president for instance) and I know other groups (like the NRA) have had similar problems....politics is a tricky business and makes for strange alliances....

[Ken H.]

To me, it seems like that (helmets) would be fairly far down on the list of priorities. No?

Kind of depends on what their true mission is. If it’s to improve the non-riding’s perception/acceptance of motorcycling, then yes, helmets are probably lower on the list. OTOH, if its to improve the welfare of riders, mandatory helmet laws and helmet use education, should have some priority.

It seems to me that the noise issue probably does more damage (at least in terms of public perception) than helmet use. Would you agree with that?

Yes

As far as the other issues I listed (the stuff I want to see my advocacy group working on)...how do you feel about that stuff?

 

I'd like to see some inward-focused efforts like working with local dragstrips to provide "bike nights" to help keep people from street racing.

Great idea, track days too. Even some of the hoons here talk about how they are more conservative on the street after having been on the track, getting it out of their system so to speak.

Along the same lines, I'd like to see efforts to improve the rider's awareness of various threats tha they face on the road, and also efforts to improve the rider training that's available.

I’d even say they even need to go a step further and develop and provide rider training. Real rider training, not just MSF starter stuff. (Which is good as far as it goes. It just doesn’t go very far.)

I'd like someone to fight the a**holes who build houses next to a race track, then complain about the noise. (I'm OK if they complain if the track came after they did.)

Well that’s an issue for most any entertainment venue that produces noise. Airports, outdoor concert venues, and NASCAR tracks come to mind. Maybe more of an issue for zoning boards and city councils than the AMA?

Also, I think they're doing a hideous job managing the AMA pro roadracing series' (Superbike, Supersport, Superstock, Formula Xtreme) There needs to be changes. Probably first and foremost, we need pressure on the track owners to improve safety. We should be able to have races in the rain at every track where rain is a real possibility I don't really know what the solution to this is, but I'd like to see rules that help the non-factory teams be more competitive.

Why are they in it at all? Seems rather out of scope for a organization that is supposed to represent all of motorcycling. Just a small group of guys using the AMA’s pocketbook to fund their own fun IMHO. Put the money to the use/benefit of all of us.

 

 

 

One thing I would add to the list is I’d like to see them (or some motorcycle organization) promoting/encouraging motorcycling as a practical mainstream activity and transportation resource. In the States (except for maybe parts of California) it’s almost exclusively viewed/used as a recreational activity. Heck of the seven people where I work that have bikes, most days mine is the only one in the lot. What about them promoting all the advantages of commuting on a motorcycle? Less fuel consumption and lest traffic congestions being top on the list.

 

Also related, if they had a lobby effort for allowing splitting/filtering that was a strong as their efforts against helmet and pipe laws, think how great THAT would be!

 

And while they have made some effort, I’d like to see them working harder against health insurance companies that are denying claims based on motorcycling be classified as a not-covered recreational activity. Even if the claim is from a commuting related incident. It's absurd.

[dmk]

The survey doesn't provide a response for me. I was a long-time AMA member. No more. As much as I love my motorcycle, it is not my life. My politics go far beyond motorcycles. AMA's single-issue support or opposition to political candidates became more than I could stomach. While I, for instance, support the right to choose whether to wear a helmet, among many other AMA issues, I refuse to fund a candidate who supports my helmet view while opposing my much-more-important overall political views.

 

This isn't about what candidate you support. The AMA doesn't fund candidates. This is about having an organization that can educate and influence elected officials on our behalf, regardless of how those officials stand on other political issues.

[dmk]

Well, silly me. When the AMA itself says, "[w]hile the sound law doesn't specifically target off-highway motorcycles and ATVs, it was written in part as a result of noise complaints about off-highway vehicle riders, and also to address loud music at private parties," why would I possibly imagine that sound was at issue. It is either is, or not only is the AMA ineffectual, but someone's misrepresenting the facts.

 

As the article states, there are two problem laws. The primary issue is the first law restricting OHV on private property. The secondary issue is the dB levels set by the second law. The AMA doesn't oppose sound restrictions, they opposed an unreasonable standard that can't be met even with vehicles that comply with EPA noise standards.

 

You're response to this was:

 

Right. So, rather than take a stand and encourage off-road riders to ride quiet machines, they took a stand to permit people to make noise. That is a perfect example of the messed up priorities of the AMA.

 

If anybody is misrepresenting the facts here, it's you.

 

What happened at the meeting is hardly a surprise; I don't expect much of substance to come from local politicians, outside of perverse grandstanding and corruption.

 

And that is why we need a lobbying/advocacy organization. Without a voice in government, how will legislators and officials understand how they are impacting the motorcycling community? How will they know whether a law imposes a reasonable standard or unreasonable one?

[hANNAbONE]

mY iNSURANCE rates per year are less because of my membership to the AMA.

[ghaverkamp]

And that is why we need a lobbying/advocacy organization. Without a voice in government, how will legislators and officials understand how they are impacting the motorcycling community? How will they know whether a law imposes a reasonable standard or unreasonable one?

 

I don't have a problem with the existence of an organization that would do a good job of representing and protecting the motorcycling community. Rather, I have a problem with the AMA.

 

This thread didn't start with me shouting, "I hate the GD AMA." Instead, this thread started with, "How many are members" followed closely by an attitude of "If you're not with us, you're against us." We were told that it's only $40, and we shouldn't be whining about that much money.

 

I wasn't whining about money. I have no problem giving $40 a year to organizations I feel are helping me. I'm not particularly against the AMA, largely because I feel everyone is entitled to an opinion.

 

I do wish the AMA (or its champions here) would recognize that the AMA doesn't represent "the motorcycle community." It represents its members. It represents what its members feel is important, regardless of whether those positions are good for motorcycling or not.

[John in VA]

I do wish the AMA (or its champions here) would recognize that the AMA doesn't represent "the motorcycle community." It represents its members. It represents what its members feel is important, regardless of whether those positions are good for motorcycling or not.

 

The AMA doesn't represent me, so I guess simply being a motorcyclist I can never be considered a member of the "motorcycle community."

[90%angel]

And a few don't like the way the AMA mishandled roadracing

 

Saw this today on Roadracing world.com and thought of this thread:

 

AMA To Sell Commercial Rights To Pro Racing Series

[wrestleantares]

I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member. - Groucho Marx