What is it with some riders......

[memaus03]

This past weekend my wife and I went for a day ride through the country side North West of Sydney. It is a well favoured route for bike riding as it is a nice piece of road with lots of twisties and few cars. I would rate myself as a conservative rider, especially with the Mrs on the back, but also do not crawl along. I tend to stick mostly to the speed limits +10 and tend to drive very much in accordance with the conditions. This particular day we encountered two incidents that left me really annoyed.

 

Incident 1. We’re driving along in a mountain pass type area with tight corners and short straights. A number of riders come up behind us and immediately begin to get impatient riding right on my backside. With every opportunity they start going past. Then I come around a corner and there’s a short straight before the next corner, but a car has already come around the corner towards me. This does not stop bonehead who decides there is sufficient space to pass and blasts away. Now given that I’m doing a good 70 to 80km/h and the car coming up is doing the same, the gap is closing fast. The rider makes it through with about 3 - 4 metres to spare either side.

 

Incident 2. A lot of these guys have come past already. They are not all riding immediately one after the other and are pretty spaced out. Once again, I have come around a corner and on the short straight to the next corner. A quick glance in the mirror – all clear. Start to move over to the outside in prep for the next corner. My mind is with working out my line and checking all clear.. Suddenly, from nowhere this bonehead roars past me - in my lane!. He passed us so close that we could have touched him. Naturally we both got a fright and almost lost it into the mountain side (the road is really narrow)

 

I feel this kind of riding is ridiculous and merely endangers other users of the road. To me this proved that age does not add to brains or intelligence. Obviously some never had it in the first instance (we saw them at a later stop and all were pretty much over 40”s).

 

I don’t want to start a verbal war here and don’t want to classify riders but there is just no getting away from it. Some riders simply do not behave like the majority of others do. In this group of riders, with the exception of two, all dangerous riding was being done by one brand of rider.

 

My other question for the wider membership of this forum, without wanting to inflame anyone is, what is it with HD riders? Here in Aus these guys are the only ones who will never greet another rider. When you buy a HD do you have to subscribe to a certain ‘Bad Boy’ circle or what is it that these guys are simply so antisocial, disregard all laws and simply give other bikers a bad name whereby we all get brushed with the same broad brush that has the greater public considering all ‘bikies’ to be bad people. I know there is something about the appearance of a lot of them but I’m just not understanding this phenomenon. How is it elsewhere? I’d be really keen to hear from others.

[russell_bynum]

Why didn't you just move to the right side of the lane (or would it be the left? I forget which side of the road you guys drive on down under.) and wave the faster riders past? That would have solved everyone's problem.

[Francois_Dumas]

I agree with some people having different ideas on what's safe (sane) and what's not. Happened to me two years ago on an Alpine pass too. Since then I just wave them through (in the Alps there are two sorts of riders: ones in a hurry, thinking themselves all to be Casey Stoners probably, and ones who love riding in wonderful scenery).

 

As for the HD folk.... that's a 'lifestyle' isn't it? *grin*. Like all the people who suddenly had to pick up 'golf' as a 'sport'...... Lots of people would like to be 'something else' in their lives and many people will strike a pose to convince others they've succeeded in that.

 

One has to see through it.... easily done IMHO.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

+1 on Russell's comment.

 

If you are riding at or near the posted limit, which here in the US is usually really low, you should have plenty of room on the road to take whichever line you wish. I simple move to the inside of the lane and wave 'em past.

 

That way, you will know when they are going to pass (or not) and be more in control of the situation.

 

I, for one, do not understand why "certain kinds of riders" won't get the heck out of the way when a faster rider comes up behind them and obviously wishes to pass.

[memaus03]

Just to clarify something here.

 

In incident 1 I had in fact been slightly to one side of the road but one needs to remember that the road is fairly narrow at this point.

 

In incident 2 I was on one side of the road already but had not seen the other rider coming up so fast and was not expecting someone to pass within the one lane so close.

 

I remain of the opinion that passing under those circumstances was unnessarily dangerous as the road conditions were not such that it could be done safely. I have no problems allowing faster riders through and always give way to them but in this case I was not happy being on the edge either given that I had a rock face next to me. There was also no place to pullover for them otherwise I would have done that, although they were not all in one group so don't know how long I would have stood there waiting, if a pull over was possible.

[sardineone]

For safety and harmony among riders of different priorities, I too support moving over to let faster riders go by. Very happy not being able to offer any direct feedback of being passed by Harley Davidsons!

Sounds like the universe is turned upside down, 'Down Under'.

[Knifemaker]

The other half of riding motorcycles is being a defensive rider especially when we are responsible for someone else with us. Keep looking into the mirrors and move over and flag another rider around whe he/she acts aggressive. RIDE YOUR OWN RIDE do not let the actions of others allow you to make mistakes.

 

As for riders of other BRANDS of motorcycles I wish we could get past this typing based on BRAND of bike and just call an a..hole an a..hole when necessary and leave the machine out of it...The machine is just responding to the a..hole riding it...my 2 cents.

[Wooster]

...Sounds like the universe is turned upside down, 'Down Under'.

 

Harleys passing beemers, who would of thunk it ?

 

Wooster w/o a clue

[flars]

All you sanctimonious bastiges need to re-read the OP. He said he rides 'speed limit + 10' - he doesn't say he is dawdling. WannaBe Casey Stoners need to get a clue about respect for the other riders on the road. On a narrow road like he is talking about there isn't always enough room to 'move over and let them past', especially if the rider being overtaken isn't aware of someone coming up from behind. Consideration for the other guys safety is what it is all about.

[Paul Mihalka]

Well, even if I am riding at +20 - which can happen - and somebody comes up behind me, I move over, slow down, and wave him by. He is happy, I am happy, and if there is a LEO hiding in the bushes, he will get the other guy and not me

[SageRider]

All you sanctimonious bastiges need to re-read the OP. He said he rides 'speed limit + 10' - he doesn't say he is dawdling. WannaBe Casey Stoners need to get a clue about respect for the other riders on the road. On a narrow road like he is talking about there isn't always enough room to 'move over and let them past', especially if the rider being overtaken isn't aware of someone coming up from behind. Consideration for the other guys safety is what it is all about.

If this is a tight road and the OP is doing 10 over and still being passed by HDs, then the speed limit is a total joke!

 

Bottom line, One knows they are behind and want to pass. Control the situation. Pull to the outside of the road and, if necessary, slow down to allow passing where one wants them to pass. It's the polite thing to do also!

And as stated above. A'Holes are not brand specific.

[Davis]

+2, 3 whatever on moving to the edge and waving by

 

If the road is wide enough for two cars to pass, it's plenty wide enough to move to the edge of your lane and wave another bike by. It's easy to focus on the inconsideration of riders making questionable passes, but what about being considerate of those wishing to run a faster pace and allowing them to do so. Move over let them by, they're happy, you feel good having done the polite thing, you no longer feel endangered wondering if and when you'll get passed and can enjoy the rest of your ride.

[SHOman]

Keep in mind the OP is talking KM here. 70-80 kmh equates to 46-50 mph.

 

Who knows why those riders chose to do what they did. Maybe they just pounded a few brews and were feeling brave. Sure sounds like it.

 

Regardless of BRAND and why a person does this, it will happen from time to time. Don't get mad, that'll impair your judgement. Without being there I can only speculate what I would have done if in your shoes. Think smart and make a decision on what to do (pull over, slow down and wave them by, haul ass and show'em your good rooking tail lights, etc).

[russell_bynum]

All you sanctimonious bastiges need to re-read the OP. He said he rides 'speed limit + 10' - he doesn't say he is dawdling.

 

Ah yes. The old "anyone who's slower than me is a jerk and anyone who's faster than me is a maniac" argument.

 

I don't care if you're going six times faster than the speed limit. If a faster vehicle comes up behind you and you have a opportunity to allow them to pass, you do that.

 

On a narrow road like he is talking about there isn't always enough room to 'move over and let them past'

 

Hogwash. If the road is wide enough for two cars (one going each direction), then it is more than wide enough for one bike to pass another bike. The passee moves over as much as is safely/comfortably possible (and maybe slows down a bit if they want to be really nice) and the passer goes right on by.

 

especially if the rider being overtaken isn't aware of someone coming up from behind.

 

Depending on the closing rate and how long the rider behind them was visible, you're right. If the trailing rider was visible in the lead rider's mirrors for more than about 60 seconds and the lead rider didn't see him, then the lead rider needs to check his mirrors more often.

[Francois_Dumas]

.The machine is just responding to the a..hole riding it...my 2 cents.

 

Right on the mark !

[motoguy128]

I agree with letting faster riders pass. When I'm in my car, I always give consideration to cars wanting to go faster then me on the highway. I will hold off a pass or pass at a faster speed so they don't have to slow down.

 

On my motorcycle, when riding 2-up, I would do hte same thing to a group of sportbikes in the twisties. I would then have fun trying to match their pace while still staying within my comfort zone.

 

Why do I do this? Because I've been the car stuck bhind a trailer and the sportbiker stuck behind the goldwin or HD on a twisty road. I like to put myself in the shoes of the other person.

[dmk]

I would never pass somebody in their lane unless they waved me by. That's just being safe and courteous. And I'm quick to get out of the way of faster traffic or wave faster riders by. Again, that's just being safe and courteous. Basically, I think the road is a better place if everybody can do their own pace. When drivers who want to go different speeds get all stuck in a bunch, that's when people's inner a$$hat starts to come out and cause problems.

 

"Bunching" is partly a product of people who don't let faster traffic by, but it's also caused by faster people who won't pass. If you come up behind slower traffic on a two-lane road and don't pass, you've just made it harder for the next guy behind to pass. On the roads I usually ride, if the second and third guys in line won't pass the lead vehicle, a long train starts building up and soon nobody can get safely past for tens of miles.

[Matts_12GS]

All you sanctimonious bastiges need to re-read the OP. He said he rides 'speed limit + 10' - he doesn't say he is dawdling. WannaBe Casey Stoners need to get a clue about respect for the other riders on the road. On a narrow road like he is talking about there isn't always enough room to 'move over and let them past', especially if the rider being overtaken isn't aware of someone coming up from behind. Consideration for the other guys safety is what it is all about.

 

You might like my new avatar!!

[Flyer5]

I think we should have speed restrictors installed on all bikes maybe say 60mph .This way we can all just follow happily along .Just think of all the road rage that would be prevented .

[IanW]

Remember we in Australia are riding on the left, if we want to "wave a rider past" what hand do we use? if we use the right to indicate an outside pass what happens to the throttle? if we use the left the rider behind may think we want him/her to pass on the inside which is not advisable for obvious reasons. I just slow down and move to the left.

Ian

[AviP]

Remember we in Australia are riding on the left, if we want to "wave a rider past" what hand do we use? if we use the right to indicate an outside pass what happens to the throttle? if we use the left the rider behind may think we want him/her to pass on the inside which is not advisable for obvious reasons. I just slow down and move to the left.

Ian

Looks like you need to move to a motorcycle "wave a rider past" friendly country.

 

But seriously, if those riders wanted to go nuts in the twisties, I would move to the left and they would get the hint. 'Nuff said.

[Davitt_Potter]

My other question for the wider membership of this forum, without wanting to inflame anyone is, what is it with HD riders? Here in Aus these guys are the only ones who will never greet another rider. When you buy a HD do you have to subscribe to a certain ‘Bad Boy’ circle

 

Yes, we do. It's the secret part of our yearly HOG dues - the "Free Pass to act like a d!ck" card, good for all HD Riders, owners, passengers, and especially poseurs".

 

or what is it that these guys are simply so antisocial, disregard all laws and simply give other bikers a bad name whereby we all get brushed with the same broad brush that has the greater public considering all ‘bikies’ to be bad people. I know there is something about the appearance of a lot of them but I’m just not understanding this phenomenon. How is it elsewhere? I’d be really keen to hear from others.

 

Again, it's the agreement when you buy your HD. "Do you promise to ride like an idiot, trampling laws and civil respect?" "Yes, I do." "Cool, here are your keys."

 

 

Seriously, now.

 

Harley Davidson is being sold as a "lifestyle" - "F the man", fight the power, etc., etc., - and they're damned good at it. Riding a Harley means you're cool, you're in with the big dogs, and you've arrived. Yamaha, Honda, and Kawasaki cruisers are echoing that sentiment. Many dealers sell on the "looks and rides like a Harley" factor. Many metric cruiser riders say "yeah, I wanted a Harley but couldn't afford it."

 

Here in South Dakota, I see the best and worst of the Harley riders. Some are exactly as you say. Others (and I like to think I'm in this group ) are courteous, watch our riding, watch our mirrors, and pay attention to our surroundings, and above all, "ride our own ride".

 

Sportbike squids have the same issues - illegal lane changes, excessive speed, and flagrant disregard for traffic laws. But not ALL sportbike riders are in this group.

 

BMW riders (on this board, anyway) seem to be about safety, self-improvement, and generally about being a motorcycle enthusiast - not a "biker".

 

Many, many cruiser riders are in it for the "lifestyle". They're out with their buds, having fun in their way, and yes - they could use more time, training, and practice. But couldn't we all?

 

HD riders do seem to fit a category - it's part of the reason they (we??) bought the bike they (we?!?) did.

 

But not all HD riders are that way. Not all BMW riders are ATGATT riders, either, I'd presume.

 

Rather than get all pissy about having a group of HD guys (are you sure they were *all* Harley-Davidsons? Could they have been Yamaha Road Stars, VTXs, Boulevards, or Vulcans??), if they made you feel unsafe, uncertain, or 'crowded', why not pull over when they were "riding your ass"? Why stay in a situation that you weren't comfortable in? Since you apparently were at your own pace, and they had proven once with the dumbass pass move, why not stop for 15-20 minutes, have a Coke/smoke/toke/whatever, and let them get ahead so you didn't have to worry about the clusterf!@k they were causing?

 

Regarding "Greeting another rider" - I ride an Ultra Classic, arguably one of the most recognizable shapes on 2 wheels. I usually wave (except during Rally; I'd just be riding one-handed all day ). Just something I do. Some HD guys wave back, some don't. It's RARE for a BMW to wave back - so what does that tell you? Sportbike guys are about 75/25 yes/no. Most import cruiser guys wave back.

 

Usually the guys that don't wave back - when I'm just puttering about town on errands - are riding the Softails, Dynas, and other 'ass jewelry'. They're too cool to be seen gawking; they're putting on a show. I laugh at them. They can't ride. They can sure pose, though!

 

Seriously, man, why get so upset? Would you be pissed if everybody in a Chevy pickup didn't wave back when you drove your Dodge? Or if a group of Toyotas passed your Buick, would you say "Damn Toyota drivers!" ?

 

The person, NOT the Marquee, is your problem. And you're spending WAY too much effort worrying about the 'effect' of two little letters on somebody's behavior.

 

Either apply throttle and display the superior motorcycle and skills you may have, or slow down, pull over, and realize that it'd be pretty damned boring if everybody rode a K1200GT.

 

(Traffic would probably move faster, though!! )

 

Davitt

 

PS:

 

Just for fun:

I was going to sample the total # of HD sold to BMW, and then did some other research:

 

2006 Harley Davidson sales: 349,196 (http://www.harleyfanatic.com/Latest/Harley-Davidson_Reports_Revenue_and_Earnings_Growth_for_2006/)

 

2006 BMW Motorcycle Sales: production: 103,759 units, delivery 100,064 units (http://www.webbikeworld.com/BMW-motorcycles/bmw-husqvarna.htm).

 

Yamaha Motorcycles: 349,000 units in 2006 (www.yamaha-motor.co.jp/global/news/2007/07/30/ymvn.html) (Includes all bikes, I assume)

 

Honda Motorcycles, PWC, and ATV: 10,271,000 units (!!!!) (world.honda.com/motorcycle/report/2006/)

[Twisties]

I'm happy to wave faster bikes past at any opportunity. However, there is absolutely no excuse for someone passing in my lane without permission, and particularly on a narrow road in a curve when I don't know he's there. Lets just say that's one more reason I don't carry a gun, cause I'd have to shoot at him. The overtaking rider needs either to pass in the oncoming lane, or wait to be waved through. Is that unreasonable?

 

My read of the OP is that he did not feel he had appropriate opportunity. He was there, we weren't. I won't second judge him. In his second scenario, taken at face value, clearly he did not have any opportunity to wave the overtaker past.

 

As for beemers getting passed by HDs. I've read here many times its all in the rider. Some say we on our beemers can out ride sport bikes. HDs can move when they want to. I just took the MSF ERC yesterday and one of the rider coaches was on a bright yellow '99 'Wing. I've absolutely no doubt he could stay with me in the twisties. Incidently, he sport tours. The other RC, his wife was on an ST1300, and they ride with beemers regularly. There were 4 RT's in the class and one cruiser, a Victory Jackpot, loaded. Also a VStrom and a GSXr. Anyway, I don't see why the OP should do anything other than ride his ride and not worry about being the fastest bike on the road.

 

As to the OP's question about brand, I don't think it's necessarily HDs, but lets say cruisers. I work in a 50 person office. In the last year 4 (almost 10%) people have got on bikes for the first time, or gotten back on bikes after many years. 3 of the 4 for sure have no license (I don't know about the 4th), none of the 4 have taken the MSF BRC (for our foreign friends this is the basic skills course), at least 3 of the four have no gear including helmet (again, I don't know about the 4th), and 3 of the 4 are on cruisers, the other being on her husband's Ducati until she gets a cruiser after the baby is born.

 

What I make of this is that cruisers are the entry/re-entry bike of choice (see my own other bike on the signature line below). These riders have limited riding experience and riding education. One was talking to me about gear and expressed total surprise when I explained he needed some kind of face protection. It had never occurred to him that he could get hit with a rock or bug, causing a wreck (not accident).

 

This is not to say that all cruiser riders are like this. I chat with many on the road. Around here at least they pretty much all wave and like to chat. Many have been riding for years on years. A lot of them have had beemers, or want beemers, and recognize beemers as a legitimite kind of bike (it's metric cruiser they despise). Many ride more responsibly than me. But amongst their ranks go the inexperienced and they stand out.

 

Too though, HD's advertising doesn't help. It cultivates a lawless attitude, and definitely attempts to main stream gear less riding.

[Matts_12GS]

Yes, we do. It's the secret part of our yearly HOG dues - the "Free Pass to act like a d!ck" card, good for all HD Riders, owners, passengers, and especially poseurs".

 

I actually got mine with a Tshirt at a gas station north of Daytona.

 

i think there's too much categorizing cruisers as "re-entry" or "beginners bikes." Yep, lots of folks buy them when they come back to riding, and I'd bet that mostly they do it because they're easy to handle at low speeds, they carry weight low, and because until people decide whether they're sufficiently addicted to riding to want to ride longer, faster, harder they can be resold fairly easily to the next guy coming back to riding.

 

Besides, don't discount that fact that some people want to ride simply TO do toy rides and poker runs.

 

It's just different than what you want, isn't that what freedom of choice is for?

 

Russell said he doesn't get the ride to the bar thing. Me, I know people who have bikes pretty much ONLY to ride to breakfast once in a while, down to the corner bar for a couple to hang out with their friends and shoot some pool etc. And you know what, that's ok too as long as they aren't riding while impaired, they're not doing anything wrong.

 

Sure, they don't get but one oil change a year and trade in bikes instead of changing tires, but all of that is done by a dealer anyway so we're keeping mechnics employed... Extra vehicles registered mean more tax revenue for cities, etc.... It's really a good thing that there are different reasons to ride and different people doing them. I think it may lessen our statistical chance of getting crushed by some weasel in an expedition texting while he holds a latte.

[russell_bynum]

I'm happy to wave faster bikes past at any opportunity. However, there is absolutely no excuse for someone passing in my lane without permission, and particularly on a narrow road in a curve when I don't know he's there. Lets just say that's one more reason I don't carry a gun, cause I'd have to shoot at him. The overtaking rider needs either to pass in the oncoming lane, or wait to be waved through. Is that unreasonable?

 

No, that's not unreasonable (Except for the part about shooting people who pass you.)

 

The only time I'll pass a rider in their lane is either:

1. When they wave me by.

2. If they're a total d*ck and they've putzed along refusing to use any of the paved turnouts, then they punch the throttle on the straights to keep people from passing. It's not the most mature thing to do, but I generally like to pass close enough to really scare the piss out of them.

[bvaughan]

. . . what is it with HD riders? Here in Aus these guys are the only ones who will never greet another rider. . . . How is it elsewhere?

same in southern california. it's a safety thing. harley guys are very safety conscious. they know that if they take their hand off the handlebar for even a split second the bike will fall over and they'll crash.

[GregB]

I agree with letting faster riders pass. When I'm in my car, I always give consideration to cars wanting to go faster then me on the highway. I will hold off a pass or pass at a faster speed so they don't have to slow down.

 

On my motorcycle, when riding 2-up, I would do hte same thing to a group of sportbikes in the twisties. I would then have fun trying to match their pace while still staying within my comfort zone.

 

Why do I do this? Because I've been the car stuck bhind a trailer and the sportbiker stuck behind the goldwin or HD on a twisty road. I like to put myself in the shoes of the other person.

YES! I don't care if someone THINKS they are going "fast enough" they should do what they can do to let the faster traffic pass.

[GregB]

same in southern california. it's a safety thing. harley guys are very safety conscious. they know that if they take their hand off the handlebar for even a split second the bike will fall over and they'll crash.

I have found Harley guys a bit less likely to wave but didn't quite "get" the reason until I read your analysis. The group who really doesn't wave are the scooter riders. What is their reason?

[Wyn]

"Oh what fun it is to ride!"

[Quinn]

Okay, I'm not understanding something. Are all y'all saying that, if as a slower rider, I should move over and share my lane with someone who is passing me with insufficient room? Don't think that's going to happen. Don't guarentee that I can stay on a consistent enough line to allow it.

[russell_bynum]

Okay, I'm not understanding something. Are all y'all saying that, if as a slower rider, I should move over and share my lane with someone who is passing me with insufficient room?

 

No. You move over and wave the faster rider's past. There's plenty of room for two bikes to ride side-by-side in a single lane briefly. Hell...some riders go all the way across the country riding side-by-side. I don't think it's a good idea to run that close for an extended period of time, but for the second or two that it takes someone to pass you...what's the big deal?

 

Of course...most of the time they don't need to take half of your lane, but you moving over just gives them more room to get by...which makes it better for everyone.

 

Don't guarentee that I can stay on a consistent enough line to allow it.

 

If you can't keep the bike within a 5-foot (lane width is normally about 11-12'...so call it 10' to be really conservative and then cut that in half) lateral space for a few seconds, then you're a danger to yourself and everyone else on the road.

 

 

The "main idea" to take home and apply in your riding is that if you've got a faster rider behind you, nobody's happy. They have to slow down and try to figure out how to pass and you have to deal with someone on your ass. If you can do something that causes that situation to go away, that's a good thing. The idea end result is for the faster riders to be ahead of the slower riders. You're happy and they're happy. If you can do something to help facilitate that, then you should do that. Often it doesn't take much...slow down another 5-10mph, move over a little and give the trailing riders a friendly wave to pass. Problem solved for everyone. Plus...you have the satisfaction of being the nice guy, and they remember "that nice guy who moved over and waved me by." Everyone wins.

[Davis]

if as a slower rider, I should move over and share my lane with someone who is passing me

Most of the time, you don't wind up sharing the lane. By moving over and waving faster traffic by, you make it clear that you want them to pass and when. You take some control of the situation. Most of the time, the overtaking rider will cross into the opposing lane slightly to give as much space to you as convenient. By moving over, you've not only made your intention clear, but you've provided a slightly shorter period the passer needs to be in the middle of the road and given a little more space in case things get crowded.

 

 

 

Don't guarentee that I can stay on a consistent enough line to allow it.

If you slow down to say 50mph and are overtaken by somebody going 70mph he's beside you for all of about 1/3 of a second. If you can't stay in half of a lane for a second, you need to get off the road and practice riding before you hurt yourself or others.

 

Waving faster bikes by is just common courtesy, just like pulling into a turnoff in the cage to let faster cages by.

[Mr Pou]

Waving faster bikes by is just common courtesy, just like pulling into a turnoff in the cage to let faster cages by.

 

Yes, but sadly, common courtesy is not so common these days.

 

I give folks some time to do the right thing (turnout, move right, etc.), but after a while, it's time to slash and burn.

[Twisties]

Waving faster bikes by is just common courtesy, just like pulling into a turnoff in the cage to let faster cages by.

 

Exactly, its a courtesy, not a requirement. It is up to the rider being overtaken, and if that rider chooses not to extend that courtesy, too bad. It doesn't give Russell the right to "pass with prejudice" as my ahole brother calls it. That kind of move, which Russell calls "immature" is illegal, dangerous, and IMHO, not at all funny. There has been plenty of talk on this board of other vehicles causing a wreck without being involved themselves. If we assume for a moment that the rider being overtaken is not the best rider on the road, should we not also assume that such an aggressive move could cause a wreck (not accident)?

 

As to the staying over and waving someone past, there are curves and then there are curves. The rider waving you past needs to feel confident of what he is doing. One problem that can occur is when the overtaking rider doesn't get the job done in a smart manner. I've had this happen where the rider I waved past was tenetive, and didn't get by me within the space I had in mind when I waved, this can be a bit dangerous. On other occasions, I have been waved past when I had no intent to pass, and had been following comfortably behind. This isn't as simple or cut and dried as some would have it.

 

My point is just this: Courtesy is good. Let's all use it. But also respect the rights of the rider in front of you. Understand that courtesy is not an obligation. Understand that the rider may lack the confidence or skills you have, may have different view of the road and it's challenges. It is also incumbent on the overtaking rider to demonstrate courtesy by waiting back, not crowding or forcing an issue. Courtesy goes both ways, and is much easier to extend when returned in kind.

 

The bottom line is that if you aren't waved past, then wait until you can safely pass in the oncoming lane.

[Ken H.]

Okay, I'm not understanding something. Are all y'all saying that, if as a slower rider, I should move over and share my lane with someone who is passing me with insufficient room? Don't think that's going to happen. Don't guarantee that I can stay on a consistent enough line to allow it.

I'd much rather be the one choosing when to be passed in my lane by moving over a bit and waving the following rider by, then have him/her be the one choosing when to pass me. In the former I'm deciding and and am ready for it. In the later the timing might not be as desirable and as a result more dangerous for both of us.

[SageRider]

As to the staying over and waving someone past, there are curves and then there are curves. The rider waving you past needs to feel confident of what he is doing. One problem that can occur is when the overtaking rider doesn't get the job done in a smart manner.

 

Again, stay in control of the situation. Just pulling over and waving is often not enough when there are tight curves and limited visibility.

It is often necessary to slow down enough so that the following rider feels comfortable getting past you in the sight line that is available. Sometimes it may be necessary to almost come to a stop. If one feels that they do not have enough bike control to allow someone to pass them, then I suggest that they completely stop to allow the faster bike to pass, then get the heck off the road and get some more training!

[Boffin]

Methinks most US riders would hate to ride in the UK. We do things very differently over here.

 

There is no concept, legal or otherwise, of 'owning' the lane, bikes pass cars without crossing the centre line, we would not think twice about passing or being passed on a straight in the same lane, though it is usual to give plenty of space where available. When a clean pass in another lane is not possible, the usual routine is for the faster bike to close on the slower bike, hold for a short time, then pass at a moderately higher speed. Some riders however, just blast on by - that can be disconcerting when you are doing 60 and they are doing 120.

 

Andy

[NEOHMark]

Methinks most US riders would hate to ride in the UK. We do things very differently over here.

 

There is no concept, legal or otherwise, of 'owning' the lane, bikes pass cars without crossing the centre line, we would not think twice about passing or being passed on a straight in the same lane, though it is usual to give plenty of space where available. When a clean pass in another lane is not possible, the usual routine is for the faster bike to close on the slower bike, hold for a short time, then pass at a moderately higher speed.

 

You're right about the US being different - especially in the 'thought' process.

 

What you just described makes logical sense to allow traffic to flow in a safe and reasonable manner. Unfortunately, here in the US we have at least three generations of drivers who stupidly bought into the 70s' propaganda that 'Speed Kills' and who think it's their birthright to choke twenty vehicles slowly behind them while a half-mile or more of open road exists in front of them.

 

Many US drivers are so stupid that they actually think it's SAFER to clog traffic in this manner simply because they're traveling at a 'safe' (read: slow) speed, than to pull over and allow traffic to flow smoothly and openly at a higher speed. Anymore, a simple pass is thought to be dangerous - especially by seasoned citizens.

[russell_bynum]

It doesn't give Russell the right to "pass with prejudice" as my ahole brother calls it. That kind of move, which Russell calls "immature" is illegal, dangerous, and IMHO, not at all funny.

 

You are correct. I did, by the way, state that I ONLY do that sort of pass when it is excruciatingly obvious that the rider ahead is DELIBERATELY and INTENTIONALLY going out of their way to prevent faster riders from passing. Sometimes I'll do the mature thing and just pull over. Let them get a gap, then start up again. (And this time, if I do catch up with them, I try to sneak up on them so I can pass before they've noticed that I'm there.) But sometimes I strafe them as close as possible. It's sort of a "anything you can do, I can do better" routine. Not the mature thing to do. Not legal. Not particularly safe. But there you go...sometimes I do it.

 

I always give the lead rider the opportunity to wave me by (unless I come up to them in a legal pssing zone or somewhere where I can make a pass (legal or otherwise) easily while giving them lots of room.

 

My point is just this: Courtesy is good. Let's all use it. But also respect the rights of the rider in front of you. Understand that courtesy is not an obligation. Understand that the rider may lack the confidence or skills you have, may have different view of the road and it's challenges. It is also incumbent on the overtaking rider to demonstrate courtesy by waiting back, not crowding or forcing an issue. Courtesy goes both ways, and is much easier to extend when returned in kind.

 

I totally agree.

 

In this thread, the OP posted that he had a negative experience out on the road due to interaction with some other riders. We're just saying "Here's what you could have done to prevent or fix that situation so you would have a better time on your ride."

[russell_bynum]

Methinks most US riders would hate to ride in the UK. We do things very differently over here.

 

There is no concept, legal or otherwise, of 'owning' the lane, bikes pass cars without crossing the centre line, we would not think twice about passing or being passed on a straight in the same lane, though it is usual to give plenty of space where available. When a clean pass in another lane is not possible, the usual routine is for the faster bike to close on the slower bike, hold for a short time, then pass at a moderately higher speed. Some riders however, just blast on by - that can be disconcerting when you are doing 60 and they are doing 120.

 

Andy

 

Yep. What you described makes perfect sense. There's lots of things that I dearly love about my Country, but the attitude of the drivers is not one of them. People have very low skill levels, they're generally more interested in having "bling" and ridiculous gadets and gizmos on their cars than having cars that actually respond well to driver inputs, they do everything they can to isolate themselves from the driving experience, and there's an arrogant "I own the road." attitude in a huge number of the drivers. Unfortunately, this seems to be getting worse, not better.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

In general, when passing a slower rider, I try to adhere to what I learned at the Code school. Just don't get within 6 feet and the rider in front "owns" the line, whatever line he chooses to take. I'll also sit back for a couple of turns and evaluate the rider's skill level. If the guy is fast and smooth, I'll be much less hesitant about getting a bit closer than some guy carefully carving 5 or 6 apexes on each turn.

 

I also use a universal sign when being closed upon by a faster rider. Raise left hand straight up and hold whatever line I happen to be on. If I happen to have a better sight line, easy cause I'm ahead, and can see that the road ahead is reasonably straight with no oncoming traffic, I will even give this indication at the entrance to a curve, making sure I don't apex tight (long way around). If the road is no good, hand goes down in a whoa gesture.

 

Never had faster riders misinterpret these signals. On the contrary, they usually understand quite well and will always give me a wave or a stuck out boot after the pass is complete.

[sardineone]

70s' propaganda that 'Speed Kills'

 

Hey, tread easy there. That's what my avitar is based on!!!

[Quinn]

Russell,

There are a couple of things wrong with your scenario IMHO. Yep, I'm not a very good cyclist and take up the whole lane going around most curves. What's the skill level of the guy trying to pass me? I don't know. He doesn't know mine. If the highway department doesn't think there's room to pass, what happens if there's a collision? I don't even pass bicyclists without giving them a full lane---just don't like being in the wrong if there's an accident.

 

Next problem to my way of thinking: When I wave a person to pass, how do I know when he will choose to go? Suppose I move over and wave for him to pass; am I responsible if he waits until the next curve to start and either has a head on with a car or forces me off the road avoiding it?

I can see moving over once he is passing so he can spend minimum time accross the center line, but I don't feel it is an obligation--only a courtesy.

[russell_bynum]

Russell,

There are a couple of things wrong with your scenario IMHO. Yep, I'm not a very good cyclist and take up the whole lane going around most curves.

 

Well sure...I do too. But it's by choice. If you really and truely can't get around a corner without taking up the whole lane, then you really need to get to a parking lot and do some practice.

 

What's the skill level of the guy trying to pass me? I don't know. He doesn't know mine.

 

So?

 

I'm riding along, and I come up on a slower rider. They move over and give me a wave...I make a pass as soon as safely possible. It never even occurs to me to judge their skill. They moved over and OK'ed the pass, so I go around.

 

 

If the highway department doesn't think there's room to pass, what happens if there's a collision?

 

Who gives a sh*t what the highway department thinks? They're designing for the least common denominator, like a loaded dump truck. I'm on a narrow, high-powered motorcycle. What's unsafe for a dump truck is no issue at all for me on my bike.

 

What happens if there's a collision? I'm not sure what you're asking. If you're talking about the legal aspect...it will almost certainly be the passing rider's fault if there is a collision.

 

 

I don't even pass bicyclists without giving them a full lane---just don't like being in the wrong if there's an accident.

 

I don't like being in accidents, regardless of who's wrong. What's your point?

 

 

Next problem to my way of thinking: When I wave a person to pass, how do I know when he will choose to go?

 

 

You don't. You make reasonable accomodations to allow the faster rider to pass, and then the ball is in their court.

 

Suppose I move over and wave for him to pass; am I responsible if he waits until the next curve to start and either has a head on with a car or forces me off the road avoiding it?

 

 

If I come up behind you, and you wave me by...and I make a pass around a blind turn on the wrong side of the road and run into someone...that's my fault. Only an idiot makes a pass on the wrong side of the road on a blind corner, regardless of being waved by or not.

 

I can see moving over once he is passing so he can spend minimum time accross the center line,

 

By that time, it's likely too late to do anything. When I pass someone, I get out, around, and back in as quickly as possible. Unless they happen to be staring at me in their mirrors at the instant that I start the pass, by the time they see me (which would be about the time I'm beside them) and they add their reaction time, I'm already clear ahead and moving back over before they can even start reacting.

 

but I don't feel it is an obligation--only a courtesy.

 

Sure. It's your obligation not to be a d*ck....intentionally making it difficult for someone to pass, but you are not obligated to make it easy to pass. You're right, it is a courtesy.

 

It just happens to be a courtesy that solves the problems of everyone involved....so why would you not do it?

[Twisties]

Methinks most US riders would hate to ride in the UK. We do things very differently over here.

 

There is no concept, legal or otherwise, of 'owning' the lane, bikes pass cars without crossing the centre line, we would not think twice about passing or being passed on a straight in the same lane, though it is usual to give plenty of space where available. When a clean pass in another lane is not possible, the usual routine is for the faster bike to close on the slower bike, hold for a short time, then pass at a moderately higher speed. Some riders however, just blast on by - that can be disconcerting when you are doing 60 and they are doing 120.

 

Andy

 

Hi Andy,

 

Here it is illegal to pass without completely clearing the lane. However this might be somewhat confused for moto's because many of the States allow "Lane Sharing", e.g. for two moto's to ride side by side. If lane sharing is allowed then I suppose there is some room for argument that a pass is a form of a lane share. However, lane sharing is obviously by agreement, and the pass we are talking of here is not. Still I think most jurisdictions would say a pass is a pass, and a lane share is something else. So generally, one must pass by moving completely into the next lane.

 

In the case where one chooses to wave a biker by, I'm generalizing from other cases I've heard of but most likely two things occur:

 

1. The passing biker is still illegal and subject to ticketing if the pass is improper, e.g. occurs in a non-passing zone, doesn't clear the lane, uses excessive speed, is reckless. If there is wreck, the primary responsibility will lie with the passing biker.

 

2. The rider that waves you by assumes some degree of liability for the outcome. Probably not a great deal of chance of being ticketed, but if an accident occurs, could be sued and the degree of liability would be determined in court. Could be ticketed if the LEO were determined, and depending on the jurisdiction. Some jurisdictions may have laws that cover things like conspiracy/aiding illegal or aggressive driving, or it might go as reckless driving in and of itself, but generally I would not expect to be ticketed for it.

[russell_bynum]

Here it is illegal to pass without completely clearing the lane.

 

Right. Legal/illegal is one thing. I'm not talking about that. If you come up on a CHP officer, don't pass them in their lane and don't pass them over the double yellow.

 

That shouldn't need to be said, but...

 

[Twisties]

Here it is illegal to pass without completely clearing the lane.

 

Right. Legal/illegal is one thing. I'm not talking about that. If you come up on a CHP officer, don't pass them in their lane and don't pass them over the double yellow.

 

That shouldn't need to be said, but...

 

 

Russell, I was just responding to Andy's point about different practices across the pond, and why any of us here have an expectation a right to our lane. Agree, we were not talking about legality, we were talking about reality!

 

Jan