FD oil change at 36K, with pics.

[Jim VonBaden]

I did my 36K today, and have not changed the FD oil since 22K, so I was very curious how the oil and splines would look.

 

I had lubed them liberally with Honda Moly 60. Here is what I saw:

 

 

They were surprisingly dry considering how much I put on them at 22K:

 

At 22K.

 

I also noticed the Speed Sensor was virtually devoid of even the finest metal shavings comparred to the 22K change:

 

At 36+K

 

At 22K

 

 

 

The oil was also pristine, with no sign of any contaminates:

 

 

Unlike the original oil:

 

 

So, not exactly proof, but a decent indication that all of you who are still buying the "lifetime fluid" idea, that it might be a good idea to change it!

 

Jim

[Swag]

Yea Jim, what a big different. I have an 07 the dealer changed mine at the 600 mile. I was planning on doing it again when I do the 36k service.

 

Thanks for all the information you provide us.

[keithb]

Jim I am changing my tranny and FD fluids at 12K mile intervals. I was shocked to see how dry the splines were at 12K miles. Two weeks ago I did the tranny and FD at the 24K mile mark and again I was surprised at how dry they were so at this point I am thinking the 12K interval is a good thing. I am using a Kendall Super Blu Multi purpose grease. Your before and after pictures looked just like my splines.

[Dave_zoom_zoom]

 

Thanks Jim

 

Excellent presentation of good information!

 

Dave

[Jim VonBaden]

Thanks Guys!

 

I think 12K is a decent number. It is pretty easy, and the splines, while still looking new and probably covered in moly, could certainly use a bit more lube.

 

Jim

[Boffin]

Thanks Guys!

 

I think 12K is a decent number. It is pretty easy, and the splines, while still looking new and probably covered in moly, could certainly use a bit more lube.

 

Jim

 

The big thing about moly grease is that it is absorbed onto the surface of the metal, so although it looks dry it is still lubricated. That is why when people do spline lubes they always look like they were shipped without lube. They were not, it just looks like they were.

 

Andy

[Lawman]

Jim,

Can I have the oil you drained out?

[Jim VonBaden]

Jim,

Can I have the oil you drained out?

 

Looks good doesn't it?

 

Jim

[RoSPA_man]

Thanks Guys!

 

I think 12K is a decent number. It is pretty easy, and the splines, while still looking new and probably covered in moly, could certainly use a bit more lube.

 

Jim

 

The big thing about moly grease is that it is absorbed onto the surface of the metal, so although it looks dry it is still lubricated. That is why when people do spline lubes they always look like they were shipped without lube. They were not, it just looks like they were.

 

Andy

Useful info Andy- is there a particular spec of Moly to be used on the splines?

[Jim VonBaden]

 

The big thing about moly grease is that it is absorbed onto the surface of the metal, so although it looks dry it is still lubricated. That is why when people do spline lubes they always look like they were shipped without lube. They were not, it just looks like they were.

 

Andy

Useful info Andy- is there a particular spec of Moly to be used on the splines?

 

BMW has it's own spec lube, but many tech use the Honda Moly 60. That is what I used.

 

Jim

[pokorskij]

What is the BMW recommendation for FD oil change for:

2005 R1200RT?

2006 R1200RT?

2007 R1200Rt?

 

And if different, why?

 

Thanks.

 

Reason I ask is I just took my 2005 in for the 24K service and inquired about changing the FD oil and was told I am no where near the recommended mileage for a change. It is like 50K or 80K.

[Boffin]

 

The big thing about moly grease is that it is absorbed onto the surface of the metal, so although it looks dry it is still lubricated. That is why when people do spline lubes they always look like they were shipped without lube. They were not, it just looks like they were.

 

Andy

Useful info Andy- is there a particular spec of Moly to be used on the splines?

 

BMW has it's own spec lube, but many tech use the Honda Moly 60. That is what I used.

 

Jim

 

I use Castrol Optimol which is pretty much the same formulation as the Honda Moly 60.

 

Andy

[marcopolo]

Pokorskij, when you and I bought our bikes the FD was supposed to be a "lifetime" fill, so you would not have found any mention of it in the maintenance schedules. BMW subsequently revised the maintanance schedule to call for the FD fluid to be replaced at the running-in check, i.e., 1000 kms/600 miles. They don't call for any further changes after that initial flush. I believe the FD fluid change is the same for all model years of R12RTs. I have no idea what the guy at your dealership based his comment on, but if I were you, I'd have it changed now.

 

The final drive failed on my R12RT in mid-July, while I was on a long road trip. It was replaced by BMW of Salt Lake, who advised me to change the fluid in my new final drive at 600 miles (I did this flush at Brown Motor Works in Pomona CA). I had had the fluid changed in the original final drive at the end of my first riding season (even before I knew BMW had changed the schedule). I plan to change the fluid periodically in my replacement final drive.

[keithb]

I believe I have read on this site the interval is now at 24K miles. I checked the FD on my 05 RT at 12K miles and the splines were very dry. Two weeks ago when I did the oil/tranny/FD at 24K miles the splines on the FD were very dry again. At 24K miles I would definitely recommend you change the fluid and check the splines. I know Jim VonBaden just checked his at the 36K mile mark (previous service for him was 24K miles) and his were quite dry as well. Considering gear oil is so inexpensive in the grand scheme of keeping your bike running my personal interval for changing tranny and FD fluids is 12K miles.

[Jim VonBaden]

What is the BMW recommendation for FD oil change for:

2005 R1200RT?

2006 R1200RT?

2007 R1200Rt?

 

And if different, why?

 

Thanks.

 

Reason I ask is I just took my 2005 in for the 24K service and inquired about changing the FD oil and was told I am no where near the recommended mileage for a change. It is like 50K or 80K.

 

So far as I know, BMW has NOT specced a FD oil change interval at all. The 07 bikes spec a change at 600 miles, but nothing after that.

 

Any dealer telling you otherwise is NOT following BMW guidelines.

 

For piece of (my) mind, I am doing it regularly, but BMW sure doesn't say that.

 

That said, many dealers are being proactive and "suggesting" various time frames from sane 12K to insane 50K.

 

You choose.

 

Jim

[Nitrox]

Not wanting to hijack the thread and turn this into the "Jim VonBaden Tech Talk FD Help Hour"... but...

 

Completed my FD last night, and, quite Frankly, it was fun! Had the kids' DVD player with Jim's CD playing on the seat next to me, like my own personal trainer...

 

Couple of questions that came up (FYI, 2005 RT):

1) My filler apparatus came loose and I lost a bit of oil onto the brake rotor (). Best cleaning method? I wiped it down, but my test ride (yes, I got her all put back together!) felt a little loosey-goosey on the rear brake.

 

2) I noticed a small amount of oil left in the measuring container. Add that to the small amount spilled, how important is it to be at .25 actually "inside" the final drive?? Should I attempt to top off? Should I drain and start over (after all, I had so much fun )

 

I will note that I did this at 6000 miles. I suspected that my dealer didn't do it at break in. By the amount of metal on the speed sensor, I would guess that I am right. Also, the fluid, while it started out looking clean, spewed blackness at the end. I will get a picture to share.

 

I need a better fill bottle. That was the cause of my spillage.

 

Thanks to replies.

 

Oh, Jim, I will note that in almost all places that you said to use a Torx 40, I used a Torx 45. No biggie, thought I would mention it. Different on the RT vs GS?

 

-Jason.

[Jim VonBaden]

Not wanting to hijack the thread and turn this into the "Jim VonBaden Tech Talk FD Help Hour"... but...

 

Completed my FD last night, and, quite Frankly, it was fun! Had the kids' DVD player with Jim's CD playing on the seat next to me, like my own personal trainer...

 

Couple of questions that came up (FYI, 2005 RT):

1) My filler apparatus came loose and I lost a bit of oil onto the brake rotor (). Best cleaning method? I wiped it down, but my test ride (yes, I got her all put back together!) felt a little loosey-goosey on the rear brake.

 

2) I noticed a small amount of oil left in the measuring container. Add that to the small amount spilled, how important is it to be at .25 actually "inside" the final drive?? Should I attempt to top off? Should I drain and start over (after all, I had so much fun )

 

I will note that I did this at 6000 miles. I suspected that my dealer didn't do it at break in. By the amount of metal on the speed sensor, I would guess that I am right. Also, the fluid, while it started out looking clean, spewed blackness at the end. I will get a picture to share.

 

I need a better fill bottle. That was the cause of my spillage.

 

Thanks to replies.

 

Oh, Jim, I will note that in almost all places that you said to use a Torx 40, I used a Torx 45. No biggie, thought I would mention it. Different on the RT vs GS?

 

-Jason.

 

Good call on the Torx. I realized my mistake too late to change the DVD, and have recently added that to the included handout.

 

Unless you lost a significant amount on the spill and left in the container, you should be fine. The spec is .22ml refill anyhow, so if you started with .25ml you should be fine.

 

I would have cleaned the rotor with some brake cleaner, or a minimum of some alcohol.

 

Did you do your FD after several hours of sitting, or soon after riding it? Generally the deposits will come out last if the bike has been sitting because they are 90° off the drain hole, though like mine above, there were none.

 

Jim

[Nitrox]

Unless you lost a significant amount on the spill and left in the container, you should be fine. The spec is .22ml refill anyhow, so if you started with .25ml you should be fine.

That's good to know. I should be fine then. Mostly cause I new I would have some type of 'Freak Accident' so I added an extra drop or two to the container

I would have cleaned the rotor with some brake cleaner, or a minimum of some alcohol.

Great idea. I was disappointed I didn't clean the silencer and the wheel while I had it off, so I will clean it then.

Did you do your FD after several hours of sitting, or soon after riding it? Generally the deposits will come out last if the bike has been sitting because they are 90° off the drain hole, though like mine above, there were none.

It sat for a week while on vacation. After driving 10 hours home with screaming kids, I wanted to play with my toys, so I changed the FD My last ride before vacation brought me to 5995 miles.

 

-Jason.

 

While you're at it... If you would like some more tips for your addendum sheet: Add the Torque Value for the FD Drain Plug. Its not mentioned on the DVD. Matter of fact, as a value add, you could add a list of all torque values used in the video as a handy reference. Would have kept my oil smudged fingers off of the kids' DVD player

 

Anyway, thanks for you help and knowledge! You do great work!

[Jim VonBaden]

 

While you're at it... If you would like some more tips for your addendum sheet: Add the Torque Value for the FD Drain Plug. Its not mentioned on the DVD. Matter of fact, as a value add, you could add a list of all torque values used in the video as a handy reference. Would have kept my oil smudged fingers off of the kids' DVD player

 

Anyway, thanks for you help and knowledge! You do great work!

 

Thanks, I attempted to add the torque value to everything. Lots of things!

 

Adding a second sheet with torque values is a good idea, or I might add a link to my upcoming web site with service lists, updates and changes, and torque values.

 

Thanks for the feedback, it will help make the work even better!

 

Jim

[motoguy128]

I asked my dealer about lube on the splines. They said it's not nessesary. I will clarify that next time I'm in there. If you think about it, it's not a pinion gear. It's directly interlocking and never actually "travels" anywhere. The most it does is chatter in place. I wouldn't expect lube to have any significant shock absorbtion qualities to reduce wear in that situation. It's a hardened part. My question, does the spline slide in and out as the FD moves through the suspension travel?

 

For drain intervals. I asked the machanic and while he agreed that BMW says "for life" if it was "his bike" he'd change it at 36,000. That seems reasonable to me with the synthetic fluid in there. After having an O-ring get torn during reinstallation on my first FD oil change, I assume change it as INfrequently as possible.

[Ken H.]

does the spline slide in and out as the FD moves through the suspension travel?

Not on the hexheads. The geometry is such that there is no lateral travel on the splines at the drive shaft to FD point. As a matter of fact a cir-clip holds them together in place.

 

This is a change from the 1100 and 1150 series. On those bikes they do travel in and out as the suspension moves up and down.

[Jim VonBaden]

does the spline slide in and out as the FD moves through the suspension travel?

Not on the hexheads. The geometry is such that there is no lateral travel on the splines at the drive shaft to FD point. As a matter of fact a cir-clip holds them together in place.

 

This is a change from the 1100 and 1150 series. On those bikes they do travel in and out as the suspension moves up and down.

 

Absolutely true, but I still do not like metal to metal contact with no lube. Besides, if BMW didn't think they needed lube, why did THEY do it.

 

While they are essentially locked in place, there is definitely some movement. The angle changes of the two universal joints will introduce a small amount of movement, otherwise they would simply be bolted in place.

 

I do not believe it is a dangerous wear area like the old K-biles, but to ignore them is to invite issues later.

 

Jim

[motoguy128]

does the spline slide in and out as the FD moves through the suspension travel?

Not on the hexheads. The geometry is such that there is no lateral travel on the splines at the drive shaft to FD point. As a matter of fact a cir-clip holds them together in place.

 

This is a change from the 1100 and 1150 series. On those bikes they do travel in and out as the suspension moves up and down.

 

This is probably why my dealer then does not bother lubing them. At the factory, I can only assume it's mainly to help them assemble it faster and to act as a corrosion inhibitor.

 

Does the BMW service manual that the dealer uses tell you to lube them?

 

Either way, lubing them can't hurt anything so I guess why not.

[ZoomX7]

Is it easier to do a spline lube, on the R1200, than it is on the R1100/1150?

[Jim VonBaden]

Is it easier to do a spline lube, on the R1200, than it is on the R1100/1150?

 

Yes, substantially easier.

 

You would have to remove the entire FD on an 1100/1150, and that involves heating the pivot bolts to soften the locktight, and installation with a decently calibrated torque wrench.

 

Those who have done it a few times can do it an an hour or so, but for most it is a couple hour job.

 

Jim

[Ken H.]

Is it easier to do a spline lube, on the R1200, than it is on the R1100/1150?

Which splines are we talking about? If the front and rear drive shaft ones, yes, easier.

 

However the splines typically referred to when people are discussing spline failures are the ones between the engine and the transmission. They are decidedly no easier to get to on the 1200 than the 1100 or 1150 series. As a matter of fact I would argue that transmission removal is actually a bit more complicated on the 1200's because the tilt the rear sub frame up trick on the 1100 & 1150's won't work on the 1200's, it has to come off.

 

All that being said, I've yet to hear of a single spline failure on a 1200, so maybe that issue at least has been put to bed.

[ZoomX7]

Thanks.

The splines referred to in the "failures", is what I was wondering about.

I've got 64K on my '99 RT and have never had them lubed.

One dealer I checked with, said it wasn't needed on the '99 RT.