Traction control ( ACS)

[rideaway]

Does anyone know if traction control can be added to a 2006 model r1200rt?

[russell_bynum]

Does anyone know if traction control can be added to a 2006 model r1200rt?

 

Having problems with wheelspin at corner exits?

 

[GregB]

I don't know the specifics but from years spent dealing with similar items in automobiles:

I would be shocked if it could be done for less than the price of a new 2007 less the value of yours.

[Burt]

Does anyone know if traction control can be added to a 2006 model r1200rt?

 

Having problems with wheelspin at corner exits?

 

This probably a dumb question, but exactly how does ACS work? I was told that it will cut back on the throttle if the back tire spins until the tire regains traction. What happens if you are leaned over in a corner and hit some sand or gravel making your rear wheel spin and come around on you. Will ACS cut back on the throttle, and stand the bike up in the corner? I have it on my car, and that seems to be the way it works.

[russell_bynum]

I'd be curious to hear about this as well.

 

I've seen the systems on racebikes work, but I'd be curious to see if a street-tuned system works any differently.

[smiller]

This probably a dumb question, but exactly how does ACS work? I was told that it will cut back on the throttle

It's implemented differently on different vehicles but it usually doesn't back off the throttle per se as most vehicle electronics don't have positive control of the throttle itself. More often power is reduced by some other method, such as retarding ignition timing or shutting off some injectors, or sometimes (on more advanced automotive systems) even by applying the brakes on an individual wheel.

[russell_bynum]

This probably a dumb question, but exactly how does ACS work? I was told that it will cut back on the throttle

It's implemented differently on different vehicles but it usually doesn't back of the throttle per se as most vehicle electronics don't have positive control of the throttle itself. More often power is reduced by some other method, such as retarding ignition timing or shutting off some injectors.

 

FWIW, I believe the newish BMW cages have fly-by-wire throttles, and I know some of the latest crop of Japanese bikes do as well.

 

I'd be really interested to hear how this system actually works...as in how it changes the riding experience. How does it respond to too much throttle in a corner? How about gravel? Rain?

[smiller]

FWIW, I believe the newish BMW cages have fly-by-wire throttles, and I know some of the latest crop of Japanese bikes do as well.

This is true, and if the vehicle has that capability then no doubt it is used. I don't think that the majority of vehicles equipped with ATC/ASC have fly-by-wire throttles yet though... but no doubt soon...

[99Roadster]

From what I remember reading (and it's been a while so please don't quote me) when a slip is detected the timing is retarded. But has to be over like 10%. This would make more sense rather than cutting the throttle abruptly.

 

It uses the ABS sensors to compare just like it does for the brakes only in the opposite manner. That's why ABS is a prerequisite for the ASC option.

 

GS models will have three settings On, Off and another setting that will allow greater loss of traction to occur without engaging ASC, I think it was something like 15%. Other models will allow ASC to be turned off.

[motoguy128]

The way i usnderstand is as mentioned above, it adjustes the ignition timing ot reduce power and then cuts the igntion. The goal is to cut power softly to avoid a highside.

 

I have not tried ot create wheelspin, but I do note that with a passenger, I haven't yet pulled a wheelie as I used to occasionally on my R1150R.

 

I also was able to spin the wheel while loading the bike on a trailer, but I beleive the ABS had not yet performed it's start-up check (since I hadn't been rolling). But again, it might still allow 10% wheelspin.

 

I also pulled away from a stop while turning left onto the highway and had the rear end step out. I don't know if I instintively reduced throttle and coutersteered out of the slide, or if the ASC kicin and cut the ignition.

 

I see ASC being most valuable at greasy intersection when it's raining, on frost covered bridges.

 

I'll try a little harder to pull a wheelie the next time I go riding. Truthfully, even in my sportbike riding days, I never got a lot of rear wheelspin. A couple times when "launching" from a light maybe.

 

Does anyone want to try reving to 6000RPM and dumping the clutch to see how well ASC works???

[russell_bynum]

I'll try a little harder to pull a wheelie the next time I go riding. Truthfully, even in my sportbike riding days, I never got a lot of rear wheelspin. A couple times when "launching" from a light maybe.

 

Is it supposed to be an anti-wheelie device as well?

 

It should be fairly easy to test the system...just get on a gravel road and start giving it little blips. I know with the traction control in the BMW cages, you can definitely feel it working in that situation It's pretty abrupt too...not something I'd want to experience on a motorcycle when I'm leaned over.

[LuckyLeif]

So, have any of the 07 bikes actually been delivered with the ACS option? I heard there was a delay at introduction of the 07 models when I took delivery of my RT . I don't check out new bikes all that frequently when at dealers.

[John Bentall]

I have read a test of a R1200GS equippped with ASC in a German magazine. It will stop wheelies, it will help when accelerating in a straight-line over ice or on repaired road surface where the coefficient of friction varies rapidly. It operates rather abruptly, and we await a second-generation implementation.

If you open the throttle hard mid-corner, the ASC will not prevent an otherwise inevitable accident.

If I were to buy a new RT I would therefore not bother with ASC. If it's icy, I stay at home.

[PTP]

So, have any of the 07 bikes actually been delivered with the ACS option? I heard there was a delay at introduction of the 07 models when I took delivery of my RT . I don't check out new bikes all that frequently when at dealers.

 

Yes.

 

Just took delivery of my bike with this option, I didn't specifically order it, bike came from dealer stock with it. The ASC switch is added to the left handle bar and can be turned on/off at will.

 

Production date of 07/07.

[motoguy128]

My biek has it. I took delivery in July, but my build date is in Febuary. My dealer hoards bikes in the winter and spring and puts them in a warehouse to ensure there's always 3 or 4 bikes of the most popular models on the floor. I've seen as many as 5 RT's on their floor, more than any other bike. I've also seen them sell 3 on a Saturday afternoon.

[bobbybob]

My biek has it. I took delivery in July, but my build date is in Febuary. My dealer hoards bikes in the winter and spring and puts them in a warehouse to ensure there's always 3 or 4 bikes of the most popular models on the floor. I've seen as many as 5 RT's on their floor, more than any other bike. I've also seen them sell 3 on a Saturday afternoon.

 

So how well does it work? The main reason I would want it is to be able to accel. full throttle in 1st gear without doing a wheelie.

[motoguy128]

Now that I have 800 miles and am more comfortable on the bike, I'll test out the feature on my next ride tomorrow. I have the top case mounted so my wife shouldn't mind too much.

 

I expect it will be pretty seamless.

[hass]

I have TCS on my 07 R12R... haven't tested it though - seemed a bit risky to do that, I'll wait till someone else does it

[John in VA]

It operates rather abruptly, and we await a second-generation implementation.

 

Maybe it's not the same, but if it's anything like the DSC on my 2000 323i, it performs a combination of reducing engine torque, speeding up the engine, or applying individual brakes to equalize the spin of all the wheels, I guess by monitoring the ABS sensors. It's annoying and abrupt on my 323i and I usually turn it off in inclement weather. If I try to accellerate up a hill in the wet, the DSC will do its herky-jerky unpredictable business and then basically stop the car when it detects any wheelspin (and even stall the engine on my stick-shift). C'mon, I can deal with wheelspin myself on a rear-wheel-drive car going up a wet hill. Of course, the system may be improved on their latest cars, but I really don't want such a gizmo on a motorcycle. The quirky servo brakes are bad enough.

[motoguy128]

I will note it did allow me to spin my rear wheel up a ramp while loading my bike on my trailer. However, I don't think the ABS (and therefore the ASC) had initialized since I hadn't moved very far with hte bike in gear and the engine running.

[russell_bynum]

The main reason I would want it is to be able to accel. full throttle in 1st gear without doing a wheelie.

 

How would traction control keep you from doing a wheelie?

[russell_bynum]

It operates rather abruptly, and we await a second-generation implementation.

 

Maybe it's not the same, but if it's anything like the DSC on my 2000 323i, it performs a combination of reducing engine torque, speeding up the engine, or applying individual brakes to equalize the spin of all the wheels, I guess by monitoring the ABS sensors. It's annoying and abrupt on my 323i and I usually turn it off in inclement weather. If I try to accellerate up a hill in the wet, the DSC will do its herky-jerky unpredictable business and then basically stop the car when it detects any wheelspin (and even stall the engine on my stick-shift). C'mon, I can deal with wheelspin myself on a rear-wheel-drive car going up a wet hill. Of course, the system may be improved on their latest cars, but I really don't want such a gizmo on a motorcycle. The quirky servo brakes are bad enough.

 

That's about how it works on Lisa's E39 (2000 528i). It's fairly annoying actually, and it definitely over-reacts sometimes...pulling way more power than it needs to.

[russell_bynum]

If you open the throttle hard mid-corner, the ASC will not prevent an otherwise inevitable accident.

 

That's EXACTLY what the traction control systems on race bikes are for. Why/how is this system different such that it does't work while the bike is cornering?

[Limecreek]

Does anyone know if traction control can be added to a 2006 model r1200rt?

 

No.

 

There is a retrofit available for 2007 model RT's manufactured in 2006. One condition must be met. The non ASC RT's (2007) must be equipped with the 2nd generation Integral ABS option (code SA 630).

[bobbybob]

The main reason I would want it is to be able to accel. full throttle in 1st gear without doing a wheelie.

 

How would traction control keep you from doing a wheelie?

 

Russell, see quote below from Web Bike World:

<"An additional function of ASC is that it prevents the front wheel from lifting off when accelerating under full power – again an important contribution in the interest of extra safety. Function and control. ASC uses the ABS wheel sensors to monitor the speed at which the wheels are turning and also applies the diagnostic functions offered by these sensors.">

 

From this website--pretty interesting:

http://www.webbikeworld.com/BMW-motorcycles/bmw-abs-asc.htm

[John Bentall]

If you open the throttle hard mid-corner, the ASC will not prevent an otherwise inevitable accident.

 

That's EXACTLY what the traction control systems on race bikes are for. Why/how is this system different such that it does't work while the bike is cornering?

 

I don't think anybody would give a 100% guarantee, that if you whacked the throttle full open in a bend on a K1200S while near the limit of adhesion, that the ASC would control everything quickly enough to stop a slide.

Maybe the GP bikes are more sophisticated if they are built regardless of expense.

[bobbybob]

If you open the throttle hard mid-corner, the ASC will not prevent an otherwise inevitable accident.

 

That's EXACTLY what the traction control systems on race bikes are for. Why/how is this system different such that it does't work while the bike is cornering?

 

Again, below from Web Bike World:

 

<"It is not conceived, however, for maximum acceleration or for accelerating all-out while leaning over sharply, for example in a bend. Within the usual limits of physics, however, Automatic Stability Control is able to reduce any side swerve effect of the rear wheel also in a bend, thus helping to enhance the motorcycle’s riding stability. But it is important to note that ASC cannot enhance the natural, physical limits to the stability of a single-track vehicle, and that it does not relieve the rider from the need to use engine power appropriately when leaning over to a low angle.>"

[russell_bynum]

The main reason I would want it is to be able to accel. full throttle in 1st gear without doing a wheelie.

 

How would traction control keep you from doing a wheelie?

 

Russell, see quote below from Web Bike World:

<"An additional function of ASC is that it prevents the front wheel from lifting off when accelerating under full power – again an important contribution in the interest of extra safety. Function and control. ASC uses the ABS wheel sensors to monitor the speed at which the wheels are turning and also applies the diagnostic functions offered by these sensors.">

 

From this website--pretty interesting:

http://www.webbikeworld.com/BMW-motorcycles/bmw-abs-asc.htm

 

First...I have to ask...is this really a problem?

 

I mean...we're not talking about short-wheelbase, high horsepower sportbikes. I can't say that I've ever seen a BMW accidentally wheelie at any of the different gatherings I've been to.

 

I mean... if you get the thing into the powerband in 1st and just whack the throttle open, it'll come up, but that doesn't really seem like the sort of situation that happens all that often. You'd have to be pretty hamfisted to accidentally wheelie a BMW.

 

As for wheelie control...I guess it's comparing the speed of each wheel and looking for gradual decel on the front as the rear accelerates. At that point, it could assume that the front is in the air and start cutting power.

 

I don't really see this as a worthwhile feature on these bikes, but maybe that's just me.

[russell_bynum]

<"It is not conceived, however, for maximum acceleration or for accelerating all-out while leaning over sharply, for example in a bend. Within the usual limits of physics, however, Automatic Stability Control is able to reduce any side swerve effect of the rear wheel also in a bend, thus helping to enhance the motorcycle’s riding stability. But it is important to note that ASC cannot enhance the natural, physical limits to the stability of a single-track vehicle, and that it does not relieve the rider from the need to use engine power appropriately when leaning over to a low angle.>"

 

So...what would happen if I got into a curve on my spiffy new ASC-equipped BMW and whacked the throttle wide open?

 

i.e. Would the system try to help me? If it did try, would it make things worse or better?

 

That's where I see actual benefit in traction control. Spinning a wheel on gravel or a rainsoaked street while I'm upright isn't a big deal. What worries me is getting into a corner, getting on the gas, and finding some gravel, sand, or something like that which reduces traction to the point that I could get through with reduced power, but if I keep the power on, I'll lose the rear. Obviously...some situatons are such that traction control wouldn't help because sometimes you run across areas of the road that don't give you enough traction to avoid a slide even if you were at neutral throttle. But I can remember a few times where I've been in a corner and on the gas and the rear has spun and stepped out. I would welcome traction control if it could help me with that scenario.

 

Otherwise, I don't really see the point.

[bakerzdosen]

Yeah, I've been half-trying lately to power-wheelie my unloaded ST as of late, and frankly, I'd be REALLY surprised if someone could accidentally wheelie the thing without overloading the luggage. And, I'm not 100% convinced that it's that easy even then.

 

Yeah, you go buy a naked hooligan bike and you're gonna do wheelies pretty easily. An RT is not a hooligan bike.

[SageRider]

I mean...we're not talking about short-wheelbase, high horsepower sportbikes. I can't say that I've ever seen a BMW accidentally wheelie at any of the different gatherings I've been to.

 

I mean... if you get the thing into the powerband in 1st and just whack the throttle open, it'll come up, but that doesn't really seem like the sort of situation that happens all that often. You'd have to be pretty hamfisted to accidentally wheelie a BMW.

 

Ride a 1200 boy. It's a lot easier... Don't have to be very ham fisted...

Then get 2-up with a trunk and the passenger can get a real thrill.... 2nd or 3rd gear too...

[motoguy128]

I wheelied my R1150R several times taking off quickly from a light to jump ahead of traffic to change lanes. I did have a passenger and a top case on... so that helped a lot.

 

Like ABS, I don't make a habit out of locking my wheels when braking, even in a emerguency but it's good to know I have it wheen needed.

 

It's also cool when your telling someone that your motorcycle not only has a power windscreen and cruise control, but also traction control and ABS.

[russell_bynum]

It's also cool when your telling someone that your motorcycle not only has a power windscreen and cruise control, but also traction control and ABS.

 

I'm not interested in that sort of thing.

 

I dunno...the anti-wheelie thing seems to be not really that big of a deal to me. Hell...I ride a short wheelbase 1,000cc V-twin hooligan bike with an upright riding position, and I very rarely have the front wheel come up when I don't want it to. When it does happen, it's usually just a little power wheelie...a few inches off the ground and not a big deal.

 

I wouldn't be totally opposed to an anti-wheelie system, but it isn't something I would seek out.

 

Now...traction control...if it works when I'm leaned over in a corner...that would be worthwile. But it sounds like this system doesn't do that.

[ESokoloff]

I can recall reading about one incident & witnessing another that ACS possibly would have helped.

Both involved wet conditions & yellow road paint.

Neither rider went down but each had a "brown moment".

 

As for me, I've needed a slipper clutch more times then ACS.

[motoguy128]

I would rather have a slipper clutch than ASC.

[russell_bynum]

I would rather have a slipper clutch than ASC.

 

Yeah, I'd put that higher on the priority list as well.

 

But...if they got ASC to the point where it would work in cornering mode, I'd be interested in that as well.

[bobbybob]

<"First...I have to ask...is this really a problem?

I mean...we're not talking about short-wheelbase, high horsepower sportbikes. I can't say that I've ever seen a BMW accidentally wheelie at any of the different gatherings I've been to.

I mean... if you get the thing into the powerband in 1st and just whack the throttle open, it'll come up, but that doesn't really seem like the sort of situation that happens all that often. You'd have to be pretty hamfisted to accidentally wheelie a BMW.">

 

 

Russell, on my way home from the dealer after first buying my 07 R1200RT, I opened the throttle in 1st gear doing about 10mph and the front wheel came about 12" off the ground before I could chop the throttle--near 'bout lost it. No top case on and bags were empty. Tank was almost full of gas. Have you ever actually *ridden* an 05 or newer R1200RT? If so, did you pin the throttle in 1st gear?

[russell_bynum]

Russell, on my way home from the dealer after first buying my 07 R1200RT, I opened the throttle in 1st gear doing about 10mph and the front wheel came about 12" off the ground before I could chop the throttle--near 'bout lost it. No top case on and bags were empty. Tank was almost full of gas. Have you ever actually *ridden* an 05 or newer R1200RT? If so, did you pin the throttle in 1st gear?

 

Yes I have ridden several R1200 bikes including a new RT, and no I didn't pin the throttle in first gear because that would be stupid.

 

Every one of my bikes would put me on my ass if I did that.

[bobbybob]

<"Yes I have ridden several R1200 bikes including a new RT, and no I didn't pin the throttle in first gear because that would be stupid.

 

Every one of my bikes would put me on my ass if I did that.

>

 

OK--then I suppose BMW installed the ASC for all of us stupid people out there. Sure am thankful YOU'll never need it.......

[russell_bynum]

<"Yes I have ridden several R1200 bikes including a new RT, and no I didn't pin the throttle in first gear because that would be stupid.

 

Every one of my bikes would put me on my ass if I did that.

>

 

OK--then I suppose BMW installed the ASC for all of us stupid people out there. Sure am thankful YOU'll never need it.......

 

I didn't say I don't need it. There are a few situations where traction control would be a very welcome thing (assuming it were implemented well).

 

As for the anti-wheelie feature...that isn't really something I'd seek out, but if it were implemented well, it wouldn't bother me.

 

But I mean...seriously...did you really take a brand new bike that you were unfamiliar with, get it up to 10mph in first gear, then just whack the throttle open?

 

What did you think was going to happen?

[bobbybob]

<"But I mean...seriously...did you really take a brand new bike that you were unfamiliar with, get it up to 10mph in first gear, then just whack the throttle open?

What did you think was going to happen?

>"

 

Well, to be honest, I really did not expect a touring bike like this one to wheelie so easily. Obviously if I thought that would happen, I would not have done it. And I would guess that I am not the only one who's been surprised with this. Perhaps that is one reason the ASC is designed and advertised by BMW as preventing wheelies (among other things).

 

I came from an FJR1300 which, to me, was crazy fast for an ST bike, but it would only lift the wheel slightly on full throttle and only if I were sitting erect. Stating that it's stupid to open a throttle in 1st gear doesn't really make any sense to me...any more than in the other 5 gears. But it sure would help to know in advance that a wheelie would result. In fact, 3/4 opening on mine will pull the wheel off a couple inches and hold it there. The front end feels very light on accel. for a bike this size.

[SageRider]

...

But I mean...seriously...did you really take a brand new bike that you were unfamiliar with, get it up to 10mph in first gear, then just whack the throttle open?

What did you think was going to happen?

 

It's a BMW... Not much...

[russell_bynum]

Stating that it's stupid to open a throttle in 1st gear doesn't really make any sense to me...any more than in the other 5 gears. But it sure would help to know in advance that a wheelie would result.

 

How about a warning sticker on the top of the gas tank: "Warning: Wacking the throttle open at 10mph in 1st gear will result in a wheelie."

 

 

Opening the throttle is fine. But just whacking it open in 1st doesn't make any sense. I know my R1100RT would stand up if I did that. Haven't tried it with Lisa's RS, but I bet it would too. Of course...there's no question at all about the Tuono. The track bikes, even in a tuck with your weight on the front will do it. I don't even try wheelies in 1st on the dualsport beause they're too abrupt. I use 2nd instead.

 

I dunno...I guess it would just never occur to me to whack the throttle open...in any gear really, much less 1st gear where you've got so much torque.

 

What do I know...

I also don't see any point in linking the brakes so that the rear brake pedal operates both brakes. It would never occur to me to stomp on that rear brake pedal (ignoring the front brake) in an emergency situation. But BMW clearly saw a need with some subset of their customers, so they included that feature.

[Marty Hill]

I just leave mine in 6th gear all the time/a little slow off the line, but I feel much safer.

 

Yeah, this makes about as much sense as knocking ASC without even knowing what it does or having tried riding with it.

 

Wishing I was an expert.

[russell_bynum]

I just leave mine in 6th gear all the time/a little slow off the line, but I feel much safer.

 

 

Yeah, this makes about as much sense as knocking ASC without even knowing what it does or having tried riding with it.

 

For the record...I haven't ridden a bike with ASC...much less experimented with it to see what it did and didn't do.

 

Traction Control is one of those things that I've been watching on the race bikes and wondering how long until we got that technology on our street bikes. I WANT a good traction control system on my streetbike. I'd pay extra for a bike that had it. My questions in this thread were an attempt to get some real information (i.e. not just marketing drivel) about how BMW has implemented the system, what it does, what it doesn't do, and how well it does what it does.

 

The anti-wheelie feature doesn't really seem that useful to me since I've never had a problem with unintentional wheelies on any of my bikes (including the ones that are prone towards lofting the front wheel). But...I also said that I wasn't opposed to such a system if it were implemented well.

[SageRider]

How about a warning sticker on the top of the gas tank: "Warning: Wacking the throttle open at 10mph in 1st gear will result in a wheelie."

Actually, the label would most likely read:

 

"Caution! Whacking may be hazardous to your health!"

[russell_bynum]

How about a warning sticker on the top of the gas tank: "Warning: Wacking the throttle open at 10mph in 1st gear will result in a wheelie."

Actually, the label would most likely read:

 

"Caution! Whacking may be hazardous to your health!"

 

[bobbybob]

How about a warning sticker on the top of the gas tank: "Warning: Wacking the throttle open at 10mph in 1st gear will result in a wheelie."

Actually, the label would most likely read:

 

"Caution! Whacking may be hazardous to your health!"

 

 

Actually I was kinda wondering myself about Russell's constant use of that word...