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Techlusion & surging


RussellB

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My 1999 RT1100 had a surging problem not fixed after 2 trips to local dealer. I then had a Techclusion R259 installed by the dealer (?what was I thinking?) and I believe he has installed it improperly since the bike now surges worse. How can I check the microvoltages on the pots? I believe they are set wrong, but Techlusion says not to change them without checking the readings first. Their positions are NOT in alignment according to the diagram provided, but the dealer swears the readings are as recommended. Someone please help! I have a radio shack volt meter, but would not consider myself particularly handy with electonics, so anything specific would be a great help. Thanks.

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My 1999 RT1100 had a surging problem not fixed after 2 trips to local dealer. I then had a Techclusion R259 installed by the dealer (?what was I thinking?) and I believe he has installed it improperly since the bike now surges worse. How can I check the microvoltages on the pots? I believe they are set wrong, but Techlusion says not to change them without checking the readings first. Their positions are NOT in alignment according to the diagram provided, but the dealer swears the readings are as recommended. Someone please help! I have a radio shack volt meter, but would not consider myself particularly handy with electonics, so anything specific would be a great help. Thanks.

Russell, what Techlusion unit do you have? The one with the full removable cover or the one with the little corner window & snap out plug? You don’t have the older 1031 unit do you?__ We need to know what you have..

 

If you are using the 1032 or 1033 the bike MUST be back to stock for the Techlusion to work.. If it is missing the CCP or the 02 sensor is missing, corrupt or not wired correctly the computer won’t go into closed loop so the Techlusion unit WILL NOT remove the surging..

 

Make sure you still have the CCP in the fuse box as without that I doubt the Techlusion will remove your surge..

 

If you have the 1031 unit then you don’t need the CCP or the 02 in operation.. But the settings are different on that unit..

 

Can you post a picture of your Techlusion box.. If so it makes it a lot easier to help you understand the voltage pads & how to use them..

 

Twisty

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In my opinion (Twisty will disagree) by-and-large all a Techlusion does is hide an underlying problem by throwing more fuel/money at it. And it is certainly possible that the bike is so far out of tune 'under' the Techlusion that that the Techlusion can't cover it all up.

 

My suggestion would be to remove it, properly, and meticulously, completely tune the bike and see how it runs. Then and only then if some minor tweaking is needed reinstall the Techlusion and dial it to the absolute minimum amount of added fuel needed to correct the issue.

 

Otherwise you're just trying to kill an ant with a baseball bat and you'll chase your tail forever.

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The R259 is very easy to install. The only connections are the ground wire, and the plugs that interupt the o2 and the fuel injector leads. It literally takes minutes to install, so you should be able to check the wiring very quickly. Like Twisty said, we need to know which unit you have for sure though. I THINK Dobeck made the latest version so you CAN'T check the voltage. Dial it up like the face on a clock. If it's the 259, you can really just dial down all the pots and run the 4th (cruise pot) and around 8 O'clock to see if it helps anything. I agree with Ken about the tuning. warm up the bike and at the very least hook up a manometer and see if the TBS is at least good. Again, like Twisty said, see if the pink CCP is installed and it wouldn't hurt to pull the fuse for the Motronic for a few minutes to make sure that the system resets itself to the settings of the pink CCP. If all else fails, call Dobeck and send it back in to get tested. I got a defective unit my first time around. The bike ran great as far as surge free, but I really liked the throttle response as far as pulling out and shifting. I kept everything at minimal settings. The unit went bad on me and was affecting idle. They sent me a new one that I haven't installed yet. Let us know what you have for sure and check the basics and we can help you from there. BTW, Dobeck has a VERY slow moving support forum if you care to post something there. LINK

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russell_bynum
In my opinion (Twisty will disagree) by-and-large all a Techlusion does is hide an underlying problem by throwing more fuel/money at it. And it is certainly possible that the bike is so far out of tune 'under' the Techlusion that that the Techlusion can't cover it all up.

 

My suggestion would be to remove it, properly, and meticulously, completely tune the bike and see how it runs. Then and only then if some minor tweaking is needed reinstall the Techlusion and dial it to the absolute minimum amount of added fuel needed to correct the issue.

 

Otherwise you're just trying to kill an ant with a baseball bat and you'll chase your tail forever.

 

I agree.

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In my opinion (Twisty will disagree) by-and-large all a Techlusion does is hide an underlying problem by throwing more fuel/money at it. And it is certainly possible that the bike is so far out of tune 'under' the Techlusion that that the Techlusion can't cover it all up.

 

My suggestion would be to remove it, properly, and meticulously, completely tune the bike and see how it runs. Then and only then if some minor tweaking is needed reinstall the Techlusion and dial it to the absolute minimum amount of added fuel needed to correct the issue.

 

Otherwise you're just trying to kill an ant with a baseball bat and you'll chase your tail forever.

 

Ken, believe it or not I do agree with you.. It (the fuel controllers) are addressing an underlying problem)..

 

The UNDERLYING problem the Techlusion, as well as the Cobra & Power Commander are trying to hide is the fact that the BMW boxer must operate way too lean for it’s combustion chamber design to meet emission standards so it lean surges in the closed loop 14.7:1 light throttle steady load..

 

You can tune them till you turn green but unless you add fuel in the lean light throttle operational zone they will surge.. Some worse that others & some people are not as sensitive to the surge as others.. OR, even out the flame travel by using multiple spark plugs to allow proper combustion in a lean condition..

 

Sure you can default them to open loop,, force a richer base mapping compliance,, install different name spark plugs but in the end you will be adding fuel in the surging operational range if you want total surge free operation..

 

Twisty

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Jim VonBaden
In my opinion (Twisty will disagree) by-and-large all a Techlusion does is hide an underlying problem by throwing more fuel/money at it. And it is certainly possible that the bike is so far out of tune 'under' the Techlusion that that the Techlusion can't cover it all up.

 

My suggestion would be to remove it, properly, and meticulously, completely tune the bike and see how it runs. Then and only then if some minor tweaking is needed reinstall the Techlusion and dial it to the absolute minimum amount of added fuel needed to correct the issue.

 

Otherwise you're just trying to kill an ant with a baseball bat and you'll chase your tail forever.

 

Ken and I agree on this.

 

IF you have a properly tuned and set up bike the surging will go away.

 

Then again, if you add aftermarket exhausts, air filters and so on, all bets are off.

 

Jim cool.gif

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I'll have to disagree. I have had 4 different people tune up my bike. Myself, a friend (long time BMW owner/wrencher), and two different techs at a dealership try to tune a surge out of my RT and it's just not happening. By far the jobs my buddy and I did were the best, but there is still a detectable surge. I admit though that I am looking for perfection and could live with the way the bike runs now, but I think I will put the R259 back on later for the added benefits of a smoother more responsive ride. I just think that there are so many variations from bike to bike and that different people detect the surging so differently that one possibly "could" say that you can tune the surge out of every BMW out there. When I first bought my bike (used) I talked to a tech about the issue. He said that it's very strange that he will ride one customers bike that will surge so bad that it will almost buck you off and the guy says that he has no surging problems, while the next bike hardly does it at all and the guy is complaining about it. I guess I would fall into the second category wave.gif Anyway. I beleive there are other added benefits to putting on a fuel controller over that of just trying to get rid of a surge. My MPG even went UP when I had mine on, so how much fuel do you really think you are "dumping" at the problem. I claim to be no expert and you guys have paid your dues here more than me, and I really respect that. This is just my personal experience with this issue. Now, can we talk about oil or something like that dopeslap.gif Terry

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IF you have a properly tuned and set up bike the surging will go away.

 

Then again, if you add aftermarket exhausts, air filters and so on, all bets are off.

 

Jim cool.gif

 

Jim, I own one of those surging 1150RT’s & it needs a fuel controller to get the surge out..

 

SO, this one will make a great test case..

 

I need you (& Ken) to explain to me EXACTLT HOW to tune that surge out..

 

Twisty

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I have the F1-1033 unit (TFi-R259 for 1100R.RT.GS. Thanks for your help, I have no idea if the dealer uninstalled anything, but I think I remember him saying something about the unit being wired to only one cylinder ("therefore I don't have a clue how this thing is going to help") , but I asked around and have been told that the other cylinder is "slaved" so that only one has to be set(?) with the Tech. part. My unit does have a completely removable top where you look down on the pots and see little clock numbers on them and an arrow - and that is what is not set the same as the diagram from the box. Thanks.

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Thanks for the input, however I am the original owner of the bike and have had it compulsively tuned and serviced every year. My first BMW was bought in 1979 (a wonderful R65 that got over 4K miles in Europe) and I have been riding two wheels since college in 1971. About two years ago, clearly this "surging"problem started - always trying to maintain a steady speed but whether it was 35mph or 70, it still happened - I mentioned it when I brought it in for service and it was unchanged. Since I own a Dakar and a Ducati as well, I just put the RT away and rode it only occassionly, and several months later it was still happening - Another trip to the dealer for a "complete service" and the surging was still there. I talked to the tech who copped a very bad attitude with me and insisted the bike ran perfectly, but he offered no further assistance. Eventually a fellow beemer rider suggested the Techlusion and here I am. The bike now surging so much, it's like a bucking bronco, it almost throws me off and frankly I scared to ride it at this point. One item of note is that the diagram with the unit had the "clock faces" lets say in a north south orientation in the picture, at least as it relates to the setting arrows. However once you open up the unit they are oriented 90 degrees from that. So the technician has indeed place the pot so the arrow points at 4:00 e.g. on one pot, as suggested by the diagram, but in reality, since the pot's clock face is set off by 90 degrees, the setting is actually at 12:00. When I called to report this to the technician, and to ask if he had actually tested the microvoltage settings, he got angry, cursed at me, and hung up. The next closer dealer is over 3 hours away, and I'm very frustrated that I'm not riding my favorite bike. I don't know if this helps, but I do appreciate all the input, although it almost seems like surging is like SantaClaus to some - and I'm in the "Virginia" camp!

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Silver Surfer/AKAButters

I had the same problem with mine when I got it, installed a PC III, problem solved. I still get just under 40mpg and that is acceptable to me. The bike runs great. I also addes Autolite 3923's at the same time. Much of the research I'v done here inidicates fixes as simple as good tune-ups, cat plug changes etc. None of that worked on mine and the PCIII put it to bed. You might do a search on the cat plug fix. It's cheap and has worked for some. There are alos many success stories using a properly dialed in techlusion. I di not want the hassle of having to dial it in, so bit the bullet for the more expensive Power Commander, an I am glad that I did.

 

Good luck,

 

Rich

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I have the F1-1033 unit (TFi-R259 for 1100R.RT.GS. Thanks for your help, I have no idea if the dealer uninstalled anything, but I think I remember him saying something about the unit being wired to only one cylinder ("therefore I don't have a clue how this thing is going to help") , but I asked around and have been told that the other cylinder is "slaved" so that only one has to be set(?) with the Tech. part. My unit does have a completely removable top where you look down on the pots and see little clock numbers on them and an arrow - and that is what is not set the same as the diagram from the box. Thanks.

 

 

Russell, the Techlusion is only wired into one fuel injector as the they are both hooked together electrically so does one does both..

 

I presume if you have the removable cover the pots are arranged in a square & not a straight line (correct?)…

 

If you look closely at the pots there should be a small 1/8” square metal pad next to each pot..

To measure voltage just_________

 

Place your volt meter on the 5 volt DC scale (or on a cheap meter maybe 20 volt DC scale) ..

 

Then place the black lead of your voltmeter on the negative post of the battery (ideally you should use the same ground point as the Techlusion does) .. Then with the engine running & idling measure the voltage at each metal pad & write it down..

 

You probably should see the green pot a about .6 volts,,, the cruise pot at UNDER 4 volts but over 3 volts (over 4 volts shuts the Techlusion off) ,, The red & yellow pots have nothing to do with surging but should be somewhere in the 1-2 volt range..

 

If you see no metal contact pads next to the pot you have one of the units that need to be set by clock setting only.. On those just line the arrow on the pot up per the picture in the directions.. There should be a 1 & an 11 on the pot dial just use those for reference.. If the directions show you half way between 2 & 3 then set you pot to half way between 2 & 3.. The directions are kind of confusing but the picture of the pots in the directions show the correct settings.. Don’t worry about pot orientation just use the pot numbers 1 & 11 to gauge from..

 

Set the green to 2-1/2 (2:30) & set the cruise to 8 (8:00) set the red & yellow to 1 (1:00) & it shouldn’t surge.. That might hurt your fuel mileage somewhat but it shouldn’t surge there.. Use the 1 & 11 as starting points (1 =1:00) & (11=11:00)..

 

 

If it still surges (more than just slightly) after the above settings then suspect someone has removed the CCP or altered the 02 signal.. ( if it still surges post back here & we can talk you through checking those out)

 

Twisty

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The bike now surging so much, it's like a bucking bronco, it almost throws me off and frankly I scared to ride it at this point.
If this is truly how the bike is behaving, it's not surging - it's broken!

 

No sarcasm intended, the phenomenon commonly known as "surging" is a relatively small hunting back and forth at a fixed throttle position and constant load. If the bike is "bucking" something else is wrong that no Techlusion, tuning, or anything else short of diagnosing and fixing the underlying defect will correct.

 

OTHO if your description of, "it almost throws me off" is merely an exaggeration to make a point, well OK then, carry on.

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One more thing. Try resetting the Motronic by removing fuse #5 (counted from the left(clutch) side of the bike) for a minute or two. For some reason my Techlusion would not work properly until I did this.

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russell_bynum
The bike now surging so much, it's like a bucking bronco, it almost throws me off and frankly I scared to ride it at this point.
If this is truly how the bike is behaving, it's not surging - it's broken!

 

No sarcasm intended, the phenomenon commonly known as "surging" is a relatively small hunting back and forth at a fixed throttle position and constant load. If the bike is "bucking" something else is wrong that no Techlusion, tuning, or anything else short of diagnosing and fixing the underlying defect will correct.

 

OTHO if your description of, "it almost throws me off" is merely an exaggeration to make a point, well OK then, carry on.

 

I agree.

 

Anything that makes you affraid to ride it is not the usualy lean surge "hunting"...there's something else going on.

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The bike now surging so much, it's like a bucking bronco, it almost throws me off and frankly I scared to ride it at this point.
If this is truly how the bike is behaving, it's not surging - it's broken!

 

No sarcasm intended, the phenomenon commonly known as "surging" is a relatively small hunting back and forth at a fixed throttle position and constant load. If the bike is "bucking" something else is wrong that no Techlusion, tuning, or anything else short of diagnosing and fixing the underlying defect will correct.

 

OTHO if your description of, "it almost throws me off" is merely an exaggeration to make a point, well OK then, carry on.

 

Ken, I basically agree with what you say here but will add that a malfunctioning or grossly mis-set fuel controller can cause an oil head to run that poorly,, especially on throttle position changes or launch through the 1500 RPM spectrum.. Because the Techlusion is a load based fuel controller it recognizes certain injector pulse widths as decel fuel shutoff & acts accordingly..

 

I will add that if the fuel controller is disconnected & it still runs that bad then there is, as you say, a very big problem..

 

Twisty

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russell_bynum
Ken, I basically agree with what you say here but will add that a malfunctioning or grossly mis-set fuel controller can cause an oil head to run that poorly,, especially on throttle position changes or launch through the 1500 RPM spectrum.. Because the Techlusion is a load based fuel controller it recognizes certain injector pulse widths as decel fuel shutoff & acts accordingly..

 

I will add that if the fuel controller is disconnected & it still runs that bad then there is, as you say, a very big problem..

 

Twisty

 

Agree.

 

As for the tuning/aftermarket fuel controller debate...you and Ken are both right.

 

In my experience, you can't completely tune the surge out of an oilhead. But...on most bikes, you can get it to the point where you have to go specifically look for it to get it to happen. And at that point, it is usually so minor that only someone who's fixated and obscessed with it is going to be bothered.

 

I'll also say, to the people who take their bikes to the dealership and are frustrated that the bike still surges...do the work yourself. The thing with oilhead tuning and surge is that most dealership mechanics can't take the time to really tune the bike well. They'll get it good enough, but you need to to be absolutely dead nuts perfect. If a dealership mechanic spent that kind of time on the bike, they would go broke. You, on the other hand, can spend as much time as you want diddling around with it getting it that last .01% of the way towards perfect.

 

But...even with a good state of tune, some oilheads will surge more than others. My R1100RT could be tuned to the point where you REALLY had to go look for the surge. Lisa's R1100RS surges fairly badly regardless of anything I've done to tune it.

 

I think that's just differences in O2 sensor health, different levels of carbon on the pistons, etc...but the bottom line is that while meticulous tuning should be the first step in dealing with surge, it will not 100% get rid of it, and depending on your individual bike, surging may still be bad enough that it bothers you.

 

That's when it is time to look into a chip, a PowerCommander, Techlusion, etc.

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As for the tuning/aftermarket fuel controller debate...you and Ken are both right.

 

In my experience, you can't completely tune the surge out of an oilhead. But...on most bikes, you can get it to the point where you have to go specifically look for it to get it to happen. And at that point, it is usually so minor that only someone who's fixated and obscessed with it is going to be bothered.

 

I'll also say, to the people who take their bikes to the dealership and are frustrated that the bike still surges...do the work yourself. The thing with oilhead tuning and surge is that most dealership mechanics can't take the time to really tune the bike well. They'll get it good enough, but you need to to be absolutely dead nuts perfect. If a dealership mechanic spent that kind of time on the bike, they would go broke. You, on the other hand, can spend as much time as you want diddling around with it getting it that last .01% of the way towards perfect.

 

But...even with a good state of tune, some oilheads will surge more than others. My R1100RT could be tuned to the point where you REALLY had to go look for the surge. Lisa's R1100RS surges fairly badly regardless of anything I've done to tune it.

 

I think that's just differences in O2 sensor health, different levels of carbon on the pistons, etc...but the bottom line is that while meticulous tuning should be the first step in dealing with surge, it will not 100% get rid of it, and depending on your individual bike, surging may still be bad enough that it bothers you.

 

That's when it is time to look into a chip, a PowerCommander, Techlusion, etc.

Anyone concerned about surging would do well to read this again because it's just about as succinct an answer as you're going to get... this is just one of those things that you have to learn to do yourself if you want to get it resolved. If this is too much trouble then your other option is to live with the surging. For all the endless talk on the subject that really is about all there is to it.

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As for the tuning/aftermarket fuel controller debate...you and Ken are both right.

 

In my experience, you can't completely tune the surge out of an oilhead. But...on most bikes, you can get it to the point where you have to go specifically look for it to get it to happen. And at that point, it is usually so minor that only someone who's fixated and obscessed with it is going to be bothered.

 

I'll also say, to the people who take their bikes to the dealership and are frustrated that the bike still surges...do the work yourself. The thing with oilhead tuning and surge is that most dealership mechanics can't take the time to really tune the bike well. They'll get it good enough, but you need to to be absolutely dead nuts perfect. If a dealership mechanic spent that kind of time on the bike, they would go broke. You, on the other hand, can spend as much time as you want diddling around with it getting it that last .01% of the way towards perfect.

 

But...even with a good state of tune, some oilheads will surge more than others. My R1100RT could be tuned to the point where you REALLY had to go look for the surge. Lisa's R1100RS surges fairly badly regardless of anything I've done to tune it.

 

I think that's just differences in O2 sensor health, different levels of carbon on the pistons, etc...but the bottom line is that while meticulous tuning should be the first step in dealing with surge, it will not 100% get rid of it, and depending on your individual bike, surging may still be bad enough that it bothers you.

 

That's when it is time to look into a chip, a PowerCommander, Techlusion, etc.

Anyone concerned about surging would do well to read this again because it's just about as succinct an answer as you're going to get... this is just one of those things that you have to learn to do yourself if you want to get it resolved. If this is too much trouble then your other option is to live with the surging. For all the endless talk on the subject that really is about all there is to it.

 

Well here is what I have done & it still surges without the fuel controller____

 

 

 

It’s not valve adjustment as I have set those with precision miked uniform thickness Starrett feeler stock.. Lately switched over to using a dial indicator that reads in .001”.. Have also tried opening the valve clearance .001” & even .002” over factory recommended (no change in surging noted from any of the valve work)..

 

I use a water manometer to do TBI sync & ALWAYS remove & clean the brass screws, seats & passages before setting idle balance.. I then do a DELTA cross balance at 1k,,2k,,3k,,4k,, & 5k.. I then do a dynamic mid throttle balance check by sweeping the throttle slowly up through the RPM ranges starting at 1500 RPM’s.. Then, I have even done a road load balance verification under road load across the entire surging operational range using a set of vacuum gages that read in inches of H2o..

 

Have tried advancing the ign timing 1°,,2°,, & even 3° above factory setting.. Then for grins tried retarding the ign timing to end of slot (slight improvement in mid range throttle response at + 3° timing but no improvement in the surging noted)

 

Verified TPS voltage sweep while riding (using an analog voltmeter) & stationary using a friends oscilloscope (good clean tracking on the TPS on both high & low TPS output)..

 

Verified fuel injector base supply voltage, running engine (.02v below battery voltage) ..

 

Tried using a brand new air filter element as well as partially plugged older element (no change in surging noted but the dirty air filter hurt upper RPM roll on..

 

Have tracked the 02 voltage & cross over voltage,, found the 02 cycling didn’t track with the engine surging frequency.. Tried a 2nd Bosch 02 I had from another bike (still no change) .. Even tried cobbling in a GM 02 sensor from a different vehicle line.. (no change in surging noted but the GM 02 took longer to go closed loop)..

 

Tried Autolite spark plugs,, tried Bosch spark plugs, tried OEM spark plugs with all but one ground electrode cut off.. Possibly some improvement from the single electrode plugs but not enough to say definitively.. Tried opening the plug electrode gap to .35” & even .40”.. Seemed to help idle but not much effect on surge..

 

Obviously went over the entire intake system with unlit propane to look for any leaks (none found)..

 

Tried a resistor both in series & in parallel with the AIT sensor & although it did seem to help cold start didn’t effect the surge in the least.. (closed loop only looks at the 02 for fueling feed back)..

 

Ran a (hot) throttle open compression test & both sides within 3psi.. Then ran a (hot) closed throttle compression test same 3 psi variation but slightly lower final..

 

 

Have swapped fuel injectors side to side with some idle improvement & possibly a surge reduction (not enough surge reduction to say a definitive yes though)..

 

Have measured fuel pressure (41-44 psi) hot..

 

 

Have since gutted the Cat. Converter (mainly to remove the heat from under the transmission area) .. Very little change in exhaust sound noted.. Seemed to help 100-130 mph roll on (again not measured but seat-of-pants).. No change (or so slight I can’t tell) in low RPM operation.. Slightly more putty sounding at hot street idle..

 

Tried without the CCP then Motronic computer reset.. That did help the surge (not completely gone but almost livable).. That hurt proper shifting timing as the throttle became more lazy & the throttle control not crisp.. It hurt mid & mid upper range throttle response & made high gear roll on rather dead.. It hurt fuel economy (very noticeable at freeway speeds) .. Also killed off about 5 mph from the top end speed (GPS verified)..

 

Tried running without the 02 disconnected (CCP back in) .. Probably the best compromise as far as runability & throttle response.. That helped the idle quality as no 02 to hold idle leanness.. Had a functioning Cat Converter at testing time so worried about rich prolonged idle effecting converter.. I’m not sure what spark mapping that defaulted it to but a little lazier than with operational 02 but not as ragged as CCP removed..

 

 

Got tired of playing BMW engineer so added a Techlusion fuel controller & after initial settings the surge COMPLETELY gone.. The fuel controller helped throttle roll on,, allowed a clean pullout from 2000 RPM’s up in any gear,, seemed to help throttle response (not measured just seat-of-pants feel) ,, added 3 mph to top speed (GPS measured top speed) . Seemed to hurt fuel mileage somewhat after initial installation but with some slight tweaking is close to what it was..

 

 

 

Have the parts to do but haven’t yet__ The fuel controller shuts off under 1500 RPM’s by design (to protect the Cat Converter) so the hot idle closed loop pulls the idle back to 14.7:1 & am not real pleased with the idle quality (more sound related that feel) .. I’m going to install a leaf type micro switch on the R/H throttle body to remove 02 feed back at hot street idle (only),, that should allow open loop idle as that looked pretty promising in the a short test I ran during last service.. (can do that now that the converter is gutted)

 

To Do Yet__ I really want to do an injector drop engine balance (like we used to do on the old air heads).. Instead of just doing an even air flow through the TBI’s (that really doesn’t guarantee equal power just equal air flow).. I would like to do an idle balance based on engine power side to side.. (have made up the injector jumpers just haven’t got around to doing it yet)..

 

Would like to pull both injectors have then flow checked & check for equal spray patterns.. I have already done a home brewed equal flow test by allowing both injectors to squirt into matched plastic bottles & cranking for 30 seconds (they were pretty darn close but that was only at starting cal injector output)..

 

 

Twisty

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Well here is what I have done & it still surges without the fuel controller ...
Well I'd say you've about covered it... grin.gif

 

I agree. My bike just about doesn't surge at all. It is stock and I have followed the Lentini "zero-zero" to the letter. Getting on and off the throttle really gets your mind off surging especially when I ride with a group. That plus the fact my bike averages close to 50 mpg and appears to have excellent performance tells me to live with it as is. I know a bit about surging because my 2006 Subaru is a problem child too.

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russell_bynum
Well here is what I have done & it still surges without the fuel controller ...
Well I'd say you've about covered it... grin.gif

 

Yep. You got one of the "bad ones" that still surgest badly enough to bother you regardless of the state of tune. And you went substantially farther into it than most people are willing/able to go.

 

You're the perfect case where a PowerCommander, Chip, Techlusion, etc makes sense.

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FWIW.

 

I have been lucky enough several years ago to spend some time with Mark Dobeck(techlusion inventor)on a couple of ocassions discussing the "oilhead surge"over a beer. thumbsup.gif

 

One of the things I remember the most was,he told me,after working on a number of oilheads it became very obious to him that all the Oilheads were not the same and he had run into a number of them with varying degrees of surge and that his current techlusion at that time would not cure the worst ones.

 

I also remember a number of reports where BMW was repurchased the "bad ones"

 

So much for memory lane grin.gif

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Jim VonBaden

I have ridden many bikes that the owner said surged AFTER I tuned it.

 

Surging is like religion, you can't convince someone it isn't surging once they have it in their head. Moreover, the actual definition of surging is ambiguous at best.

 

Mostly what I find is people who think either the on/off throttle response way below the power band, say 1500-2200 RPM is what surging is, or they have poor throttle control, or they are so sensitive to the torque of the boxer twin that they get all freeked out over it.

 

I cannot count the number of people I have met who were perfectly happy with their bike until someone else told them it surged, then no amount of money could be thrown at it to cure the problem.

 

It is like a mythical creature with some people who feel they cannot live with it, no matter the 10's of thousands of happy miles they put on the bike before they realized it surged.

 

I wont bother to argue with anyone about it, because there is no point.

 

Those who have "a bucking bike so bad it is unridable" have other issues causing this, though I had one tell me this, and found they were trying to ride the bike the same way they rode a HD big twin. I rode it and there was no perceptable surging.

 

Thanks for listening, I am going back to riding my surgin R1200GS! Just like my R1100RS and R1100GS surged. dopeslap.gif

 

Jim cool.gif

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I have ridden many bikes that the owner said surged AFTER I tuned it.

 

Surging is like religion, you can't convince someone it isn't surging once they have it in their head. Moreover, the actual definition of surging is ambiguous at best.

 

Mostly what I find is people who think either the on/off throttle response way below the power band, say 1500-2200 RPM is what surging is, or they have poor throttle control, or they are so sensitive to the torque of the boxer twin that they get all freeked out over it.

 

I cannot count the number of people I have met who were perfectly happy with their bike until someone else told them it surged, then no amount of money could be thrown at it to cure the problem.

 

It is like a mythical creature with some people who feel they cannot live with it, no matter the 10's of thousands of happy miles they put on the bike before they realized it surged.

 

I wont bother to argue with anyone about it, because there is no point.

 

Those who have "a bucking bike so bad it is unridable" have other issues causing this, though I had one tell me this, and found they were trying to ride the bike the same way they rode a HD big twin. I rode it and there was no perceptable surging.

 

Thanks for listening, I am going back to riding my surgin R1200GS! Just like my R1100RS and R1100GS surged. dopeslap.gif

 

Jim cool.gif

 

 

Jim, obviously you are one of those people that are not sensitive to engine surge.. I have never ridden a stock 1150 that didn’t surge in some RPM band under 3500 RPM’s.. Obviously I haven’t ridden them all ( not even that many,, probably 30 tops)..

 

Some that I have ridden are worse than others & some are broad band & others narrow band of maybe a 300 RPM surge zone..

 

Most people that tell me their 1150 doesn’t surge just don’t know they have it.. Or it doesn’t bother them..

 

I think riding conditions play a big part here also as people that live deep in subdivisions or back on long gravel roads tend to cruise slower in the surging operational range so are more prone to feeling the surge as they run along in lower gears at 25-30 mph.. People that just drive out & take off probably are not in the surge zone long.. Even riding style can play into it as stiff arm riding makes it feel worse & bent elbows soften the surging feel slightly.. Also the more upright you sit the more the surge effects upper body movement..

 

I also believe some areas of the country produce more surge complaints as oxygenated fuel fools the 02 slightly & lets it lean the combustion slightly more..

 

You also can’t convince me that I don’t know what an engine surge feels like as I do vehicle chassis & drivability for a living..

 

If the surge on an 1150 can be tuned out just TELL ME HOW,, I’m listening…

 

Twisty

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Twisty, you is right. No amount of valve adjusting, TB sync, or spark plug brand changing is gonna cure a too lean fuel/air ratio that is controlled by a computer. If you want a cure then change the fuel/air mix. Ummm..doesn't Techlusion do precisely this tongue.gif

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Twisty, you is right. No amount of valve adjusting, TB sync, or spark plug brand changing is gonna cure a too lean fuel/air ratio that is controlled by a computer. If you want a cure then change the fuel/air mix. Ummm..doesn't Techlusion do precisely this tongue.gif
It's true that the root cause of the surge is an overly-lean mixture, but a poor state of tune will most definitely exacerbate the problem. So no, technically a tune-up doesn't address the root cause of the surge, but a tune-up can help improve things as the closer everything else is to optimal the easier it will be for the engine to make use of whatever miserly amount of fuel it is getting. And (for reasons not yet fully understood) a change from the BMW OEM plug to a single-electrode plug does seem to net a significant improvement in many cases.
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Well here is what I have done & it still surges without the fuel controller ...
Well I'd say you've about covered it... grin.gif
Well at the risk of setting "Twisty1" into ALL CAPS MODE AGAIN ( blush.gif ), what I didn't see mentioned in the . . . shall I say VERY detailed exploration above, was a tank or two of Techron and a good, hot Italian Tune Up. Perhaps that already is part of your routine, it just seemed like the rest of the exploration was so detailed perhaps you just left it out. My experience has taught me that this step is very helpful. thumbsup.gif

 

I've seen thick, cakey carbon build up on piston crowns doing tune-ups at Tech Daze that had to have an effect actual compression ratios and flame front propagation. I've assisted folks doing their own tune-ups at a Tech Daze with the same careful adjustments and checks that I do to mine, but they aren't always immediately impressed by the improvement. I'm convinced the missing preparation for a tune-up was the critical step that was missing.

 

I just did another service and in checking my piston crowns, they looked very clean with only a thin, light coat of build-up--so clean that the concentric machining marks were still CLEARLY visible. I also found no adjustments necessary in the valves (126K total miles). In looking back through the records, I made a slight adjustment to the top two exhaust valves 11K miles ago, but the last adjustment before that was almost 50K miles ago (also only the top two exhaust valves, which I've found frequently on 1150 boxers of higher mileage). The motor has settled down completely now--perhaps that contributes to why my bike no longer surges. BTW, I live only a few feet above sea level, I'm using stock NGK plugs, no CCP (pulled the LPB), and run (Califronia oxygenated tongue.gif ) Chevron premium whenever I can find it. You might want to pull the plugs and take a look with a really bright penlight (the 3xAAA Streamlight is a perfect size and very bright) and see what it looks like in there.

 

I do remember what surging felt like, as when it was new and things were still settling in (and I was not as religious about a full tank of Italian Tune-up one tank prior to servicing as I am now) it used to get progressively worse the further from the previous servicing. I also ride my bike to work in the cool coastal mornings only 14 miles, then park it for 24 hours, and repeat the next morning. These are optimum circumstances for carbon build-up and I can only notice the increasing "surge-creep" when it's been too long since I've "turned the badger loose" (as Tool would say! grin.gif ) at Torrey or on a ride through the desert. It's just amazing what a ride through the deserts to mountains far away will do for this motor--not to mention the rider! thumbsup.gif

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Well here is what I have done & it still surges without the fuel controller ...
Well I'd say you've about covered it... grin.gif
Well at the risk of setting "Twisty1" into ALL CAPS MODE AGAIN ( blush.gif ), what I didn't see mentioned in the . . . shall I say VERY detailed exploration above, was a tank or two of Techron and a good, hot Italian Tune Up. Perhaps that already is part of your routine, it just seemed like the rest of the exploration was so detailed perhaps you just left it out. My experience has taught me that this step is very helpful. thumbsup.gif

 

I've seen thick, cakey carbon build up on piston crowns doing tune-ups at Tech Daze that had to have an effect actual compression ratios and flame front propagation. I've assisted folks doing their own tune-ups at a Tech Daze with the same careful adjustments and checks that I do to mine, but they aren't always immediately impressed by the improvement. I'm convinced the missing preparation for a tune-up was the critical step that was missing.

 

I just did another service and in checking my piston crowns, they looked very clean with only a thin, light coat of build-up--so clean that the concentric machining marks were still CLEARLY visible. I also found no adjustments necessary in the valves (126K total miles). In looking back through the records, I made a slight adjustment to the top two exhaust valves 11K miles ago, but the last adjustment before that was almost 50K miles ago (also only the top two exhaust valves, which I've found frequently on 1150 boxers of higher mileage). The motor has settled down completely now--perhaps that contributes to why my bike no longer surges. BTW, I live only a few feet above sea level, I'm using stock NGK plugs, no CCP (pulled the LPB), and run (Califronia oxygenated tongue.gif ) Chevron premium whenever I can find it. You might want to pull the plugs and take a look with a really bright penlight (the 3xAAA Streamlight is a perfect size and very bright) and see what it looks like in there.

 

I do remember what surging felt like, as when it was new and things were still settling in (and I was not as religious about a full tank of Italian Tune-up one tank prior to servicing as I am now) it used to get progressively worse the further from the previous servicing. I also ride my bike to work in the cool coastal mornings only 14 miles, then park it for 24 hours, and repeat the next morning. These are optimum circumstances for carbon build-up and I can only notice the increasing "surge-creep" when it's been too long since I've "turned the badger loose" (as Tool would say! grin.gif ) at Torrey or on a ride through the desert. It's just amazing what a ride through the deserts to mountains far away will do for this motor--not to mention the rider! thumbsup.gif

 

Jamie, no carbon buildup.. Plugs clean, piston tops light dusting.. Don’t forget I’m fighting lean not rich.. I don’t need Italian tune ups as I usually hit 100 mph at least a few times each ride of any distance.. My GPS tracks max speed on every outing & it usually has at least a 3 digit number showing.. I live in Michigan where solid speeding is basically tolerated & freeways run at 80-90 most times..

 

I do run Techron, first thankful, on long trips that will see sustained high speed running..

 

Compression is normal so the combustion chambers don’t have anything extra in them..

 

The reason you are seeing very little surging is the lack of CCP.. That forces open loop on the Motronic 2.4.. It also forces a base spark mapping that is in my estimation less than desirable…. Probably also the reason for your carbon build up problem..

 

Twisty

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russell_bynum

The reason you are seeing very little surging is the lack of CCP.. That forces open loop on the Motronic 2.4.. It also forces a base spark mapping that is in my estimation less than desirable…. Probably also the reason for your carbon build up problem..

 

Yeah...I thought removing the CCP on an 1150 was generally bad idea because it puts it into "limp home" mode or something like that. Increases emissions, worse fuel economy, etc, ec. Yes?

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Thanks Jim, Twisty and the rest of the contributors on this post. I have been doing a lot of reading of previous posts on the subject (and on other sites), and you guys have been a big help. After a year of trying to get the dealer to tune out the surge in the 3-4K rpm range of my '99 1100RT, I've decided to take the plunge and try to deal with it myself. I've downloaded the "zero-zero" reprint, ordered new throttle cables and a bunch of recommended GS parts, as well as Jim's tuneup video. Hopefully I'll have things put back together in time for Torrey. The best part is knowing that if I get stuck, you guys are around to give assistance. Thanks again for the encouragement to try this myself! thumbsup.gif

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The reason you are seeing very little surging is the lack of CCP.. That forces open loop on the Motronic 2.4.. It also forces a base spark mapping that is in my estimation less than desirable…. Probably also the reason for your carbon build up problem..

 

Yeah...I thought removing the CCP on an 1150 was generally bad idea because it puts it into "limp home" mode or something like that. Increases emissions, worse fuel economy, etc, ec. Yes?

 

Russell, as far as I can tell,, yes.. The 1100 2.2 system was sold in some countries with no Cat & a couple of fairly decent open loop maps in the fueling computer..

 

I think the 1150 2.4 system is only a Cat calibrated fueling computer so the open loop mapping is only for get-home-enable.. We have pretty well done the same thing in automobiles to prevent people from defeating the emission system.. We found that if they ran too good in back-up mode people wouldn’t take them in for repair in the event of an emission control failure.. I tried some different CCP jumpers in my 1150 & it appears there is a couple of maps in the computer for countries with poor grades of gasoline as they appear to use less spark advance..

Without the CCP it seemed to run OK at light to moderate throttle (doesn’t need all that much spark there) but became lethargic at mid throttle up & lazy throttle action on the shifts.. I’m not sure if the 2.4 system received any software cal improvement over it’s life cycle (I would believe it did as most automotive PCM’s do)..

 

I have a friend that used to work for Bosch & he gave me all the data he had on the Motronic 2.4 & it isn’t very informative.. Bosch is a bit** to get info from on their electronics..

 

Twisty

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Thanks Jim, Twisty and the rest of the contributors on this post. I have been doing a lot of reading of previous posts on the subject (and on other sites), and you guys have been a big help. After a year of trying to get the dealer to tune out the surge in the 3-4K rpm range of my '99 1100RT, I've decided to take the plunge and try to deal with it myself. I've downloaded the "zero-zero" reprint, ordered new throttle cables and a bunch of recommended GS parts, as well as Jim's tuneup video. Hopefully I'll have things put back together in time for Torrey. The best part is knowing that if I get stuck, you guys are around to give assistance. Thanks again for the encouragement to try this myself! thumbsup.gif

 

 

Dave, careful with your reading.. Your 1100 has the Bosch 2.2 computer so make sure you only do the things that pertain to the 1100 engine.. Things that work on the 1100 don’t always work on the 1150 engine (2.4 system) & things for the 1150 don’t always transfer to the 1100..

 

Have you tried removing the CCP (pink relay in your fuse box)? In a lot of cases that will make the 1100 quite rideable in the surging range.. Pull the CCP,, pull the #5 fuse for 30 seconds,, ride it for effect..

 

Twisty

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GrumpyOldMan

Russell, last year I used the Bob Lentini method of tuning out the slight surging in my 2000 RT. The surging however returned when the air temperature exceeded 95 degrees F recently. I then pulled my CCP (mine was yellow/gold color) and reset my Motronic; just as Twisty just recommended. My surging has been cured (at least for now). I will put the CCP back in when it gets a little cooler again. This may work for you as well. Give it a try and good luck.

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The reason you are seeing very little surging is the lack of CCP.. That forces open loop on the Motronic 2.4.. It also forces a base spark mapping that is in my estimation less than desirable…. Probably also the reason for your carbon build up problem..

 

Yeah...I thought removing the CCP on an 1150 was generally bad idea because it puts it into "limp home" mode or something like that. Increases emissions, worse fuel economy, etc, ec. Yes?

Well, Leslie and I have been "limping" around for about 60k miles now! grin.gif

 

I would say that Leslie and I did multiple tests during a few thousand mile ride home from El Paseo a few years ago riding in tandem, pulling one CCP, then on the other bike, then first one back, etc. trying different combinations and resetting in between. We were each riding tank to tank and measuring mileage, surge and overall performance/drivability. We noticed no change in mileage (though most of the riding was not at commuting speeds), but a better off-idle response, smoother idle (but with a sort of "growlier" sound for want of a better descriptive term) and a significant decrease in surge. But I guess we just got lucky and got two of the good ones. wink.gif

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russell_bynum
Russell, last year I used the Bob Lentini method of tuning out the slight surging in my 2000 RT. The surging however returned when the air temperature exceeded 95 degrees F recently. I then pulled my CCP (mine was yellow/gold color) and reset my Motronic; just as Twisty just recommended. My surging has been cured (at least for now). I will put the CCP back in when it gets a little cooler again. This may work for you as well. Give it a try and good luck.

 

I pulled the CCP on my R1100RT and didn't like the results. I haven't tried it on Lisa's RS. We've got a Techlusion R259 on Lisa's bike righ tnow and I guess it's better. It's just not as nice as my RT was. Then again, it's got about half as many miles, and it hasn't been ridden nearly as hard.

 

Oh...and it's Rob Lentini, not Bob. He was a great guy who did a whole buch of ground-breaking work figuring out how the oilheads operated. I only got to meet him once, but he made a lasting impression.

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Have you tried removing the CCP (pink relay in your fuse box)? In a lot of cases that will make the 1100 quite rideable in the surging range.. Pull the CCP,, pull the #5 fuse for 30 seconds,, ride it for effect..

 

Twisty

 

Not yet. I'll give it a try this weekend.

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russell_bynum
The reason you are seeing very little surging is the lack of CCP.. That forces open loop on the Motronic 2.4.. It also forces a base spark mapping that is in my estimation less than desirable…. Probably also the reason for your carbon build up problem..

 

Yeah...I thought removing the CCP on an 1150 was generally bad idea because it puts it into "limp home" mode or something like that. Increases emissions, worse fuel economy, etc, ec. Yes?

Well, Leslie and I have been "limping" around for about 60k miles now! grin.gif

 

I would say that Leslie and I did multiple tests during a few thousand mile ride home from El Paseo a few years ago riding in tandem, pulling one CCP, then on the other bike, then first one back, etc. trying different combinations and resetting in between. We were each riding tank to tank and measuring mileage, surge and overall performance/drivability. We noticed no change in mileage (though most of the riding was not at commuting speeds), but a better off-idle response, smoother idle (but with a sort of "growlier" sound for want of a better descriptive term) and a significant decrease in surge. But I guess we just got lucky and got two of the good ones. wink.gif

 

hmm. Go figure.

 

I remember in the early days of the 1150, people saying that you shouldn't run without a CCP or you'd foul the cat, get bad fuel economy, all of your hair would fall out, your taxes would go up, and you would get a severe case of flatulence every time you were in a crowded elevator.

 

I guess that may have been a slight exaggeration.

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....you would get a severe case of flatulence every time you were in a crowded elevator.

 

Russell, that's enough with the elevator jokes. grin.gif

 

This has been a very interesting discussion. I thank all of you who have contributed to it. I don't notice any surging on my 04 RT, but what do I know I came off a Harley. lmao.gif

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Twisty, Thanks for the input with specifics - I know how I'll spend some time this weekend now. To answer your question regarding the arrangement of the pots they are not in a straight line. One last question before I go to the garage, when I called the Techlusion folks for input on this, and explained that the pots were not set to the recommended "time settings" and could I just dial them in and take a test ride, they said that I shouldn't make such "drastic" changes without checking the voltage readings. That is why I haven't tried that, but maybe that is their "legal" response to folks. I'm pretty sure that my model does not have the metal buttons , but it clearly has a well marked clockface and an arrow. I'll get into it tomorrow and see what I can do. Thanks again, have a great wk end yourself. Russell

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Please forgive a newb's ignorance, but what is a CCP and where is it located?

 

My ignorance/confusion stems from the fact I read in one of these "surging threads" that the CCP was a plug/cap on the end of a loom of wires on the right side of the bike under the tank near the air box lid. (Sort of like a cap on a diagnostic plug) Here I'm reading that the CCP is a relay in the fuse box. So I'm confused. dopeslap.gif

 

Thanks!!

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russell_bynum
Please forgive a newb's ignorance, but what is a CCP and where is it located?

 

My ignorance/confusion stems from the fact I read in one of these "surging threads" that the CCP was a plug/cap on the end of a loom of wires on the right side of the bike under the tank near the air box lid. (Sort of like a cap on a diagnostic plug) Here I'm reading that the CCP is a relay in the fuse box. So I'm confused. dopeslap.gif

 

Thanks!!

 

Read This article from Rob Lentini. He's talking about putting GS intake tubes on an R1100RS, but at the bottom he gives a brief mention of the CCP...where it is, what it does, etc.

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Please forgive a newb's ignorance, but what is a CCP and where is it located?

 

My ignorance/confusion stems from the fact I read in one of these "surging threads" that the CCP was a plug/cap on the end of a loom of wires on the right side of the bike under the tank near the air box lid. (Sort of like a cap on a diagnostic plug) Here I'm reading that the CCP is a relay in the fuse box. So I'm confused. dopeslap.gif

 

Thanks!!

 

Scott, the CCP Cat. Code Plug is basically a set of jumpers wires housed in a Bosch relay housing..

 

Your Fueling computer (Motronic it’s called) has a base fuel & base spark map in it along with various other fuel/spark maps.. Those are used in countries that either have very poor gasoline or don’t require emission controls so no Catalytic Converter needed.. The mapping in the computer is basically selected by how the jumpers are configured in that CCP.. Removing the CCP (then re-setting the computer) forces the computer to use the base fuel & spark map (or whatever map is selected on that particular computer with NO jumpers).. There are different color CCP’s & the color signifies different jumpering inside the CCP..

 

On the BMW 1100, NO CCP base mapping is pretty good as it was flashed to use in countries that required no Catalytic Converter..

 

On the 1150 the base mapping is only used for sensor or computer failures & comes into play if the CCP is removed or there is a system failure..

 

See Picture below.

 

Twisty

 

 

 

 

ccp.jpg

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My 1999 RT1100 had a surging problem not fixed after 2 trips to local dealer. I then had a Techclusion R259 installed by the dealer (?what was I thinking?) and I believe he has installed it improperly since the bike now surges worse. How can I check the microvoltages on the pots? I believe they are set wrong, but Techlusion says not to change them without checking the readings first. Their positions are NOT in alignment according to the diagram provided, but the dealer swears the readings are as recommended. Someone please help! I have a radio shack volt meter, but would not consider myself particularly handy with electonics, so anything specific would be a great help. Thanks.

 

I had a 2000 R1100RT for three years. Surged even at steady 4000 rpm, despite perfect tuning, clean plugs, TB sync, valve adjust, GS tubes, new throttle cables, etc. Truly annoying. (Anybody who says oilhead surging is all in the mind or due to incompetent throttle control never rode my RT.)

 

I got a Techlusion, set all settings at approximately ONE THIRD the recommended settings. Result: Zero surge. Great drivability. Easy starting. FUN to ride. Lost 3 mpg but that's an easy price to pay. On some oilheads, Techlusion is a miracle. It was on mine.

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Scott, the CCP Cat. Code Plug is basically a set of jumpers wires housed in a Bosch relay housing..

 

Your Fueling computer (Motronic it’s called) has a base fuel & base spark map in it along with various other fuel/spark maps.. Those are used in countries that either have very poor gasoline or don’t require emission controls so no Catalytic Converter needed.. The mapping in the computer is basically selected by how the jumpers are configured in that CCP.. Removing the CCP (then re-setting the computer) forces the computer to use the base fuel & spark map (or whatever map is selected on that particular computer with NO jumpers).. There are different color CCP’s & the color signifies different jumpering inside the CCP..

 

On the BMW 1100, NO CCP base mapping is pretty good as it was flashed to use in countries that required no Catalytic Converter..

 

On the 1150 the base mapping is only used for sensor or computer failures & comes into play if the CCP is removed or there is a system failure..

 

See Picture below.

 

Twisty

 

So, if I understand correctly, since I have an 1100, if I remove the CCP, and then reset the Motronic it will help smooth things out and the engine will run more smoothly?

 

However, mine is an R so according to the link provided to Rob Lentini's tech page, I have the longer intake tubes and thus it should run strongly with the pink CCP ?

 

Ugh, my head hurts!! dopeslap.gif

 

I guess I'll just try a bunch of different things and see what works best. Gee, I'll just have to ride more. Darn. grin.gif

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Scott, the CCP Cat. Code Plug is basically a set of jumpers wires housed in a Bosch relay housing..

 

Your Fueling computer (Motronic it’s called) has a base fuel & base spark map in it along with various other fuel/spark maps.. Those are used in countries that either have very poor gasoline or don’t require emission controls so no Catalytic Converter needed.. The mapping in the computer is basically selected by how the jumpers are configured in that CCP.. Removing the CCP (then re-setting the computer) forces the computer to use the base fuel & spark map (or whatever map is selected on that particular computer with NO jumpers).. There are different color CCP’s & the color signifies different jumpering inside the CCP..

 

On the BMW 1100, NO CCP base mapping is pretty good as it was flashed to use in countries that required no Catalytic Converter..

 

On the 1150 the base mapping is only used for sensor or computer failures & comes into play if the CCP is removed or there is a system failure..

 

See Picture below.

 

Twisty

 

So, if I understand correctly, since I have an 1100, if I remove the CCP, and then reset the Motronic it will help smooth things out and the engine will run more smoothly?

 

However, mine is an R so according to the link provided to Rob Lentini's tech page, I have the longer intake tubes and thus it should run strongly with the pink CCP ?

 

Ugh, my head hurts!! dopeslap.gif

 

I guess I'll just try a bunch of different things and see what works best. Gee, I'll just have to ride more. Darn. grin.gif

 

Scott, removing the CCP on the 1100 SHOULD help remove most of the surge.. The intake tubes have little effect in the surging range..

 

Your surge is a closed loop issue so no matter what intake tuning you have the 02 sensor will control the fuel air mixture in the surging operational range & force the computer to fuel it to about 14.7:1.. (that will give you a lean surge in most cases)

Removing the CCP will force open loop in the surging range of operation & if like MOST 1100’s will run smoother at off idle to mid range..

You might loose a little in upper mid range but I couldn’t feel it when I removed the CCP on my 1100..

 

Try removing the CCP then ride the bike few days.. Just see how it feels & if you like the change.. Then pop the CCP back in & do a computer re-set & see if there are places it feels better or worse.. My guess is the good will outweigh the bad..

 

As a general rule Rob Lentini has some good info but some portions of what he said is old or in my estimation not truly accurate in certain situations.. I wish he was still alive as I believe he would have made some updates to his info.. I think he did a lot of his work on a sample of one & as we know now these BMW boxers are not all the same when it comes to surging issues..

 

Twisty

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Good afternoon,

 

After reading along for a while now in this discussion board and being very intrigued by the surging phenomenon I thought it was about time to make a contribution in the form of my experiences.

 

But first of all let me introduce myself.

My name is Martijn, I live in the Netherlands and my bike is a 1997 R1100RS. Previously I have owned a R1100RT hich I sold to buy my current bike.

 

In several discussion boards a ‘perfect’ tuned (valve adjustment and TBS) bike is considered to be the foremost condition for having a surge free ride. When this is covered all thinkeable gadgets should be obsolete.

When we accept however that the root cause of surging is an overlean mixture, causing misfires, than that is the parameter to tweak for me. Having said this I am not claiming that good tuning is not important, in contrary, but for my riding pleasure I don’t want to depend on a state of tuning that should be perfect but might be all but perfect 1.000 km’s after tuning.

To make a long story short: I want my bike to be robust against surging, therefore I want to influence the root cause.

With my previous and my current bike I have taken quite some effort to understand the phenomenon and to try out cures for it. The downside of this is that because of the effort I have taken I am getting more critical and sensitive for surging with the risk that it will become an obsession for me. smirk.gif

 

As mentioned my previous bike was a 1997 R1100RT with a closed loop emission control system (lambda-sonde) and quite serious surging.

The first thing that was done with this bike was pulling the CCPand installing a CO trim pot (BMW part # 13621461425) making it an open loop emission control system. In various previous postings pulling the CCP was advised but I did not read anything about installing the CO trim pot. As far as I know the wiring looms of all 1100’s are prepared to take a CO trim pot. Is there a specific reason not install this trim pot? On what CO percentage will the bike run when the CCP is pulled and no CO trim pot is installed?

The CO percentage on my R1100RT was set at 2,5% curing almost all of the surging.

After a whilethrough Ebay I got hold of a Wunderlich/BB-power chip which should cure all surging by supplying a richer mixture. This again made some improvement but still did not cure all surging. On top of the chip and out of curiosity I then installed Denso iridium plugs because there should not only be sufficient fuel, it should al be used as well. Something of which the standard dual electrode Bosch sprak plugs are not capable in my opinion and experience.

Besides the cost (although this might pay back in greater durability) the other donwside of using Denso iridium plugs is the fact that BMW advises against using ‘conventional’ single electrode design spark plugs.

Are any engine failures (falling off of ground electrodes) due to this ‘conventional’ design sprak plugs known in this board?

With this latest configuration the bike rode very well and without virtually no surging. And then it was time to sell the bike as I wanted something with less weight and therefore easier-to-handle.

 

Then came the 1997 R1100RS with open loop emmision control system (without lambda-sonde, but with CO trim pot). From the start this bike did well regarding surging and I decided to keep it standard for as long as possible. This was possible until I read something about the Techlusion fuel kits. After reading as much about them as possible I decided to order a FI1031. After installation and tuning at first I was not overwhelmed by the effect of the Techlusion unit not even after tuning on a dyno. This might be caused by the fact that my bike already hat an open loop emission control system making the advantage of the Techlusion relatively small.

Just recently I also installed Denso iridiums and after (too little) kilometers I am tempted to say that this is the bike I have always wanted to have. My guess is that with the Denso’s the bike is taking full advantage of the extra fuel the Techlusion unit offers; not only during mid RPM steady state cruising but also under acceleration. I don’t know yet what the fuel economy penalty is going to be but I think it won’t be significant as this wasn’t the case when I did not have the Denso’s.

Unless I start to take full advantage of the better driveability of course.

 

Hopefully I have added something usefull to this subject. Should any body have any question or remarks I am very interested.

 

Greetings from the Netherlands,

 

Martijn

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Hello and welcome!

Did you notice any improvement with the Techlusion compared to the CO pot?

I have the same Techlusion unit on my 99RT and it works very well. I sometimes wonder if the factory CO pot would have done just as well.

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