Braking on BMW's ABS

[Crank]

I had an incident in Arizona that I had to grab a handful of front brake while riding a 1200GS to avoid a rear ender. I was going about 30, the pavement was dry, and the ABS performed beautifully allowing me to continue steering away from the collision while still applying full braking. I was so impressed I said I would never have another bike without ABS (except for dirt).

 

Here's my question regarding the 2006 R1200RT that I now ride: What will happen if I am on a rain slick street and I am going 50 MPH and have to grab a full squeeze of front brake, say due to a car turning in front of me? Will the bike perform as it would on dry pavement? Does the rain-wet street change the masterful result of collision avoidance that I had on dry pavement?

 

I was riding in heavy rain last Saturday and started thinking about this. You know, you think about things like this sometimes! I have been told that BMW has demonstrated their ABS on similar wet conditions doing the same full braking and that it doesn't low/high side ever, but comes to a perfect upright stop!

[ronest]

Hello:

 

I have been curious about this also. I would think that stopping in the rain would require more distance because the abs allows braking up to the threshold before wheel lockup.

 

RD

[ericfoerster]

Ride like you never need to find out

 

My GS would slide on pavment when it was wet. BMW checked it several times and said nothing was wrong.

One hot summer day I laid a nice 10 foot skid with my GS and BMW told me it couldn't do it. I had two bikes behind me that saw it.

 

I'd NEVER count on it to save you. Again, ride like it is not there and when it works be happy.

[Huzband]

IMNSHO, you should never, EVER, depend on ABS on a bike to save your butt. If you do, you're already in WAY over your head.

 

I suppose, in some cases, ABS could be a good thing. But I haven't found a need for it myself. Call me arrogant, but after 38 years on motorcycles, & only two accidents,(where ABS would have made no difference), I still believe I can stop a bike better than a computer.

 

YMMV.

[Boffin]

Read the manual. Unlike cars, ABS on a bike does NOT allow you to steer and brake with the wheels locked.

 

You were lucky there was enough traction for the wheel to do both steer and brake.

 

Andy

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Lucky doesn't begin to describe it.

If the ABS was, in fact, engaged, the tire would already have been using just about all the available traction to slow the bike. Add steering to the equation and you have the formula for BANG!!

[Lawman]

Ed,

Please elaborate..If I'm in an ABS event and not sure I can stop before striking an object should I just steer straight and hope I stop in time instead of steering away from it?

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Billie,

If the ABS is engaged, steering and consequently leaning the bike, will exceed the traction limits of the tire. So;

ABS engaged, back off the brakes a bit and then steer.

 

Of course, you have to evaluate the situation and determine if there is room to stop, you are slowed sufficiently to make a swerve, which direction to swerve and how radically. The latter will determine how much brake you can continue to use if any.

 

There is a huge difference between what you can do in terms of steering/leaning with brakes off as opposed to brakes on. As always, this requires practice and training to learn the limits and is more than a little dangerous in terms of dropping the bike while in learning mode. This is one area you really want to explore judiciously.

 

My recommendation would be to scrub off speed with maximum effort braking and then go for the swerve if traffic conditions dictate that as a safer move, releasing all brakes at the point you decide to turn the bike. BTW, you can always get back on the brakes during the transition out of the swerve for a brief period while the bike is more or less level again. This might make the recovery swerve easier. Too many times, folks will complete the swerve to avoid the original obstacle but, not having practiced the counter move to get back on path, wind up finding themselves in a worse situation and unable to get out of that.

[Ken H.]

Here's the thing to remember, ABS will never create traction where it doesn't exist. It can not overcome the laws of physics. If the total available traction is reduced because of rain slicked streets, ABS will keep the wheels from locking then too, and potentially shorten your total stopping distance than had you just 'locker 'er up and rode it out' on a non-ABS bike. But it will never shorten the stopping distance from what is possible for the traction the tire can get on the pavement at the moment.

[Lawman]

I wish I were good enough to do that but in reality in an emergencey braking situation the very fact that I find myself in an ABS event already shows that I screwed up. By that point I'm in panic mode and all I can think of is STOPPING! Since ABS should release the wheel immediately after lockup it seems to me that I need not concern myself with available traction at that point. I realize by turning I have less available traction for stopping but since I'm trying to avoid hitting the object I want to steer away from it keeping in mind that my stopping distance will be increased but so what if I miss the object I'm trying to avoid.

[Boffin]

I wish I were good enough to do that but in reality in an emergencey braking situation the very fact that I find myself in an ABS event already shows that I screwed up. By that point I'm in panic mode and all I can think of is STOPPING! Since ABS should release the wheel immediately after lockup it seems to me that I need not concern myself with available traction at that point. I realize by turning I have less available traction for stopping but since I'm trying to avoid hitting the object I want to steer away from it keeping in mind that my stopping distance will be increased but so what if I miss the object I'm trying to avoid.

 

The problem is the ABS will not stop the tyre sliding sideways. If you turn significantly in an ABS event without releasing the brake you WILL go down. The tyre has already run out of traction and yes, the ABS will release the brake to let the wheel rotate but the wheel is now also going sideways and releasing the brake does not help that.

 

Andy

[Lawman]

If my turn is so sharp that my tire slides straight ahead instead of rolling in the direction of the turn I'm toast anyway..If I released the brake in that situation I'm afraid I would high side..I think I just need to go in the car..

[Crank]

If you turn significantly in an ABS event without releasing the brake you WILL go down. The tyre has already run out of traction and yes, the ABS will release the brake to let the wheel rotate but the wheel is now also going sideways and releasing the brake does not help that.

 

Andy

 

 

This incident I spoke of was not a hard, leaning turn like an arcing turn. It was a slight swerve to miss the backend of a freakin' truck. So, yes, you can steer to some degree while in full-on ABS mode as I was - It was not the same situation as riding Deals Gap and blowing a turn and cranking on the ABS to pull out of it - that won't happen.

 

But, ABS seems to allow a rider to maintain control while still braking to make slight steering adjustments to MISS THE OBJECT! It worked for me.

 

I wonder about the situation if the road was wet, and had to face a full-on ABS braking situation, would the bike stay upright while I was hard-braking from 50mph to a stop. It's not something you want to go out a experiment with, but it is something that you might be faced with doing if the vehicle turns left in front of you.

 

I would think that non-ABS in a similar situation would have a tendency to slide out from under you on wet pavement. And, conversely, that ABS braking would reduce the chance of that happening (of course, barring the gravel, the ice, the Geico squirrel, etc.) Have any of you had a braking situation like that?

 

Really, the ABS worked like a charm and saved my ass, with some limited steering/veering. I know that for certain since it happened with me.

 

The other lesson was to NOT be distracted by women in short dresses walking down the sidewalk! She was hot, though!

[imeyers]

Golden rule, a tire can only give you 100% of it's available traction at any given time. If you are using 90% of the tires traction for braking you have 10% left for handling, less brakes = more handling, more handling = less brakes. Once you go over the 100% ABS or not you are going down.

[Crank]

Imeyers,

 

Do you think that the 100% of traction that you speak of is greater with ABS than it would be on non-ABS, with all other things being equal? Otherwise, why have ABS?

[Firefight911]

Imeyers,

 

Do you think that the 100% of traction that you speak of is greater with ABS than it would be on non-ABS, with all other things being equal? Otherwise, why have ABS?

 

You can not defy the laws of physics and increase traction where there is none.

 

You have the amount of traction between the given road surface and given tire based on all the parameters that dictate this level. There is no magical wand or ABS system that will ever increase the amount of available traction you have.

 

You, as a rider, can only manage this available traction. If you have activated ABS, you have failed as a rider to manage your available traction. The results of this failure will be a crash or a seat stuck in rear from pucker factor.

 

I am being very gruff over this subject and I am the first to admit it. However, it amazes me that anyone could possiby think that a driver aid, I prefer crutch, will ever make you a better rider or save your bacon when you fail to employ the basics of riding which are to manage your situation, aka, situational awareness.

 

To improve this situational awareness takes deliberate action, deliberate training. Nothing less, nothing more. It comes from actively seeking those cues which push the envelope of physics and available traction.

 

 

I used to reconstruct motorcycle accidents for a motorcycle attorney. I had to quit as I was sick and tired of reconstructing an accident and seeing either 300 feet of skid (poor technique) or the comment that there was no way anyone could have stopped their motorcycle in the given distance. BS!

 

ABS will never decrease the stopping distance of a vehicle over what a correctly managed braking maneuver will. Never. No, you do not need to be a Stoner, or a Rossi, or a Hayden. You need to be a student of the sport which you participate.

 

<Off soap box until the next debate on how ABS shortens brake distances and is the modern snake oil.>

[Crank]

So, your belief is that ABS is "snake oil?"

 

Hmmm. Ok.

[Boffin]

So, your belief is that ABS is "snake oil?"

 

Hmmm. Ok.

 

ABS is there to compensate for poor technique or for unseen traction reducers such as surface contaminants. ABS, if activated, will extend braking distance beyond the optimum available as it releases then re-applies the brakes. With practice, we should all be able to keep the tyres just short of locking (actually about 5% to 10% slippage) thereby giving max braking effort.

 

The linked brakes used on the RT can prevent this level of control as the rider cannot modulate each wheel individually.

 

ABS is not magic. It is a lifebelt for the un-tutored. If you rely on it to save your a$$ you will get bitten.

 

BTW, locking the front wheel in a straight line will not put you down instantly. I have locked front wheels for 3 or 4 feet in practice and have seen 20foot lockups. The key is practice.

 

Andy

[Firefight911]

So, your belief is that ABS is "snake oil?"

 

Hmmm. Ok.

 

ABS is there to compensate for poor technique or for unseen traction reducers such as surface contaminants. ABS, if activated, will extend braking distance beyond the optimum available as it releases then re-applies the brakes. With practice, we should all be able to keep the tyres just short of locking (actually about 5% to 10% slippage) thereby giving max braking effort.

 

The linked brakes used on the RT can prevent this level of control as the rider cannot modulate each wheel individually.

 

ABS is not magic. It is a lifebelt for the un-tutored. If you rely on it to save your a$$ you will get bitten.

 

BTW, locking the front wheel in a straight line will not put you down instantly. I have locked front wheels for 3 or 4 feet in practice and have seen 20foot lockups. The key is practice.

 

Andy

 

Perfectly stated!!

 

My R1200ST has ABS. My R12GSA does not.

 

Have I ever activated my ABS? Yes. Why? Poor management of the available traction. Result? Extended time and distance to mitigate the situation. How was I able to remain upright and avoid an accident? Experience and aggressive practice prior to the event that had me riding within my limits and with an added buffer of space between me and the risks.

 

Did ABS save my a$$? NO! It pointed out that I had not practiced enough and made me reliant on an outside force to compensate for my inability to manage my available traction for the instance in which it engaged.

 

Snake oil? No. It is a band aid for poor technique and people have become reliant on it to save their bacon.

 

As in many things in our society, it has become so much easier to look for the solution outside of yourself as opposed to looking in the mirror and realizing that your safety is your job, not some unseen engineer.

 

Get out and practice and learn how to do what Boffin so perfectly stated. Max. traction is available when the tire is rotating at ever so slightly less a speed than the speed of the bike in relation to the surface. Eg.; motorcycle traveling at 30 mph. Tire at max braking is rotating at 29.7 mph. At that point you are acheciving max braking.

[ericfoerster]

But, ABS seems to allow a rider to maintain control while still braking to make slight steering adjustments to MISS THE OBJECT! It worked for me.

 

Shocking as it may seem, a non-ABS bike will do the same thing.

If you were in full-on ABS cycling I doubt you knew much of anything exept...oh sh%&

ABS will not keep you bike upright anymore than non-abs braking makes your bike skid out from under you.

 

I think someone posted here that non-abs bikes actually stop shorter than the ABS brothers.

[Mr Pou]

Yes, ABS.

 

I did a CLASS motorcycle school one year at Road Atlanta, and good ol' Reg asked the class how you could tell when you over brake in the wet. He got lots of interesting answers, and said, really, the only way to know was you go sliding down the pavement. Good for a laugh, good ol' Reg.

 

But seriously, for most riders, this is the truth. Add in oil, antifreeze, gas, diesel, and all the other spooge vehicles drop into the water, and you have a highly variable friction surface, depending on where you are.

 

So, I'd gather most riders err to the side of caution, and do not brake as hard as they could, because, sometimes you can't tell that the truck ahead dropped diesel all over the road.

 

Where ABS helps most riders is you can be more brave to try and eek out that last bit of braking in wet conditions, knowing if you slightly cross that traction line, the ABS will most likely save the day. ABS also allows people to experiment and find out just how hard you CAN brake in the wet. On wet, clean roads, you can stop pretty darned hard.

Diesel and water, you may as well be on an ice rink.

 

Personally, I think ABS is a big boone for all weather commuters.

[Firefight911]

I think someone posted here that non-abs bikes actually stop shorter than the ABS brothers.

 

Not to put words ijn your mouth Eric, but here's how I put it:

 

Given to identical motorcycles under identical situations, both at maximum braking, they will both stop at the same time/distance. Exceeding the maximum traction threshold with an ABS bike will do one thing, extend stopping distance. Period. End of story.

[Mr Pou]

Given to identical motorcycles under identical situations, both at maximum braking, they will both stop at the same time/distance. Exceeding the maximum traction threshold with an ABS bike will do one thing, extend stopping distance. Period. End of story.

 

Under ideal conditions, when the rider knows he's doing a brake test.

 

Take that same skilled rider, put him on a cold, gray, wet road, and see if he can perform that same skilled at the limit of adhesion brake drill when the bluehair in the Buick pulls a lefty at close range. More times than not, I'll bet the answer is no. More times than not, I'll bet the guy on the ABS bike does better.

 

ABS is for the real world when panic and adrenalin are flowing.

[ericfoerster]

ABS is for the real world when panic and adrenalin are flowing.

 

 

WRONG......

It teaches us to depend on something that may or may not be there. In my case my ABS never worked correctly and I'll bet there are many more out there.

 

As this thread points out, there are many people who have bought into the ABS lifesaving feature. It simply is not true.

I’ll agree it is a nice feature, but to me it nothing more than something else to go wrong with my perfect BMW.

I think breeds a sense of confidence that should not be there in younger, less mileage riders.

If you activate your ABS you have gone too far. What remains will NOT be saved by ABS alone. Luck, skill, and other things now become just as important as the ABS.

 

Aviation has proven me correct for many years. There are thousands of dead people all over the world because pilots have tried to rely on technology instead of skill.

[Mr Pou]

WRONG......

It teaches us to depend on something that may or may not be there. In my case my ABS never worked correctly and I'll bet there are many more out there.

 

That is more damning of your particular BMW (and the lack of competent [warranty] service), not ABS in general.

 

As this thread points out, there are many people who have bought into the ABS lifesaving feature. It simply is not true.

 

Disagree, it can be, and has.

 

Aviation has proven me correct for many years. There are thousands of dead people all over the world because pilots have tried to rely on technology instead of skill.

 

I suppose you've never used the fully coupled AP to shoot an ILS, even though it is installed and functioning, correct? I suppose you still fly airways instead of going /G using the 430, correct? Shoot, I don't even know if I should trust that ILS, maybe I should go back to shooting NDB apps.

 

Hey, let's go back to drum brakes and bias ply tires, we sure can't trust those new fangled disk brakes and radial tires.....

[T__]

There is an awful lot of theory here in this thread speaking of ABS doing this or NON ABS allowing that or a non ABS bike stopping faster that a like equipped ABS bike..

 

You JUST CAN’T DO THAT.. You need to address the entire breaking system AS A FULL SYSTEM not just ABS vs. non ABS.. That includes tires, rider reaction, ability to understand road conditions, etc..

 

One thing that must be understood is not all ABS systems are the same, or work the same, or have the same hydraulic system backing them up..

 

There is also a big difference between how an automobile & motorcycle gain minimum stopping distance.. On a dry road (good traction surface) automobile max stopping power is generated with brake lock up & skidding tires… So is a motorcycle BUT you just can’t lock the tires on a motorcycle (at least for more than a couple of feet) without going down.. So right there on a car (dry road good surface) there is no way an ABS system will out stop a non ABS system (will stop in a straighter line or allow swerving while braking but not shorter, well unless you skid onto the dirt shoulder) .. Some of the newer adaptive quick response ABS systems can get real close though.. Now on a motorcycle where you can’t lock the brakes for max decel anyway the difference isn’t so pronounced.. Still on a good KNOWN dry road with good traction a REAL GOOD rider should be able to beat the ABS system by just a little.. But that’s assuming a standard brake system with conventional front & rear master cylinder & caliper pistons sized to the brake system & bike weight.. OK, now lets take the same bike with those standard properly sized manual (non ABS) brake system parts & stop it against a similar bike that has a servo assisted brake system (still no ABS but does have non linked power servo brakes).. Hands down the servo system will ALWAYS beat the standard system in the hands of a very capable rider.. The time to max brake pressure build on the front brakes will be close to ¼-to as much as ½ second faster (how far do you travel in that time as the manual brake system builds max braking pressure?). I don’t know either but enough to be noticeable.. Now that still doesn’t take into account the rear brake that you have to rotate your foot to apply then build pressure to max there also..

SO, now to beat the rear brake delay we link the rear brakes to the front (you’re faster with front brake apply so might as well take advantage of the quicker front reaction time & gain couple more feet shorter stopping distance there.. But this only works IF the linked brakes are balanced perfectly for the road, load, tire compound, & weight transfer.. Here’s where the ABS comes in.. It allows the balance to be off a little,, it allows the rear to be linked to the front for quicker reaction time,, it allows power servo brakes, it adapts to changing road friction as you brake..

The up side of those power servo brake systems is very quick brake pressure build to max stopping pressure, the down side to those power assist servo brakes is that same quick pressure build allows very easy wheel locking in a panic stop due to the very quick high pressure build up.. If you are going to run the braking pressures on a quick build high pressure threshold you better provide the rider with a way of keeping them from easily locking up.. Next problem,, as we all know motorcycles have a weight transfer issue during hard braking so as the rear motorcycle weight transfers to the front the rear brake must release some of it’s gripping power & transfer it to the front tire/& brakes.. A good rider can do that manually but that is difficult on non linier road surfaces or on unknown road surfaces so it is just about a guess until the rear brake has been applied a short distance to get a feel for road traction (we are talking unknown road surface here not you favorite play road or practice parking lot).. So most good riders kind of taper brake here with progressive brake pressure that increases until weigh transfer then let off until rear wheel is pretty well fully unweighted (that is safe & prudent but doesn’t generate max stopping power from the first apply nano second).. In this situation a good new generation (or late generation) ADAPTIVE ABS system with learn ability algorithms will watch the front/rear decel rates & brake pressure & allow full rear braking force right from the get go & kind of taper the rear pressure off as it sees impending lock up..

 

These new quick response adaptive ABS systems are difficult to beat on about ANY unknown road surface or in a panic situation.. When a truck turns left in front of you & you are grabbing all the brakes you can & you are still closing at yards per nano second I would like to meet the Hot Shot that will let off the brakes to keep from wheel lock up.. Easy to let up if you have near misses as you still had some braking room very difficult to let up if you’re still closing faster than you want & the bike isn’t stopping.. You still might hit it but at least the ABS will be using the tires to near max stopping power.. Without ABS you still might hit it but if the bike goes down you will hit it harder as the rubber down generates better stopping power than the plastic, metal, or your legs do..

 

Obviously there are good or better riders that can brake pretty good & even better riders that don’t get into a situation where you even need full (& instant) braking decel power & most decent riders can ride for years & not even get into ABS mode.. But there is that once in a while situation that you don’t know the road, it is late at night & a deer is there RIGHT NOW so you brake as hard as you can to clear it.. All you need is an extra couple of feet & possibly a slight steering correction to just miss it.. This is where ABS & servo brakes really shine..

 

Unfortunately there is usually a trade off & that is the loss unlinked rear trail braking for that curve that you would like to just nip a little speed off for or the loss of rear only braking drag for that 14’ full lock turn you want to impress the local Hot Shot with,, or times you would like a little more brake control on the dirt or gravel.. It just ain’t a perfect world (well there’s always brake by wire (coming very soon to a bike shop near you)..

 

Twisty

[Joe Frickin' Friday]

There is also a big difference between how an automobile & motorcycle gain minimum stopping distance.. On a dry road (good traction surface) automobile max stopping power is generated with brake lock up & skidding tires…

 

Not true. On pavement, maximum tractive force is developed at a slip rate of about twenty percent - that is, the tire tread is rolling by about 20 percent more slowly than the pavement. At higher slip rates, the tractive force drops off significantly, as much as 15 percent when you get to a full locked wheel. On pavement, locking up the wheels definitely will not give you the shortest possible stopping distance.

[Ken H.]

Given to identical motorcycles under identical situations, both at maximum braking, they will both stop at the same time/distance. Exceeding the maximum traction threshold with an ABS bike will do one thing, extend stopping distance. Period. End of story.

That is a true statement.

 

But it rather oversimplifies the real world. The key part of your statement is "both at maximum braking". IF and it's a very, very big "if", as riders we could each and every time read all the condtions at the moment that contribibute to determing what the maximum braking threshold is, and then correctly apply the brakes to utilize that maximum braking force, not less, not more, but exactly point on, each and every time, all the while why it's dymanically changing by the millisecond, then yes, I agree, we wouldn't need ABS.

 

But no human rider in my opinion is capable of doing that. So for that reason alone, I'm damn glad I've got ABS.

 

Which BTW in no way condones the grab a handful, let the ABS system do it's thing, and hang on until the ride ends, approach.

[Firefight911]

There is also a big difference between how an automobile & motorcycle gain minimum stopping distance.. On a dry road (good traction surface) automobile max stopping power is generated with brake lock up & skidding tires…

 

Not true. On pavement, maximum tractive force is developed at a slip rate of about twenty percent - that is, the tire tread is rolling by about 20 percent more slowly than the pavement. At higher slip rates, the tractive force drops off significantly, as much as 15 percent when you get to a full locked wheel. On pavement, locking up the wheels definitely will not give you the shortest possible stopping distance.

 

Thank you for addressing this gross mis-statement Mitch. I stopped reading at that point.

 

The bottom line here is that if you end up, in ANY situation, that puts you into relying on ABS to save you, YOU, as a rider, have failed to operate your vehicle properly.

 

If as one poster states regarding the dark, grey, wet road, or something to that effect, and using ABS to reduce your stopping distance or maintain your control then you, the rider, have failed to manage your situation by reducing spped, increasing following distance, etc.

 

ABS is a wonderful device and I do not poo-poo its existence or its potential benefit, it is, however, an aid that compensates for nothing other than a lack of skill. I stand by my statement that if you activate ABS, or rely on its installation of your bike to perform some intervention to reduce your braking distance or maintain directional control, you have failed as a safe, prudent rider.

[ghaverkamp]

The bottom line here is that if you end up, in ANY situation, that puts you into relying on ABS to save you, YOU, as a rider, have failed to operate your vehicle properly.

 

. . .

 

ABS is a wonderful device and I do not poo-poo its existence or its potential benefit, it is, however, an aid that compensates for nothing other than a lack of skill.

 

Where the skill is infallibility.

[Firefight911]

Where the skill is infallibility.

 

The skill is to manage and mitigate. It is common sense (another lacking skill of today) that infallibility is not attainable, but is it so far fetched to practice with that as a goal???

 

Constantly strive and practice to make you better, as opposed to rely on an outside aid.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

I'm with Greg here.

I don't currently ride a bike equipped with ABS nor do I see one in my immediate future. I do work on my braking skills, in fact, I work darn hard at them to the point where I can sense impending lockup and stop the squeeze right there and then. Road surface doesn't much matter, I can still feel the steering getting strange or the rear wanting to step out a bit. Can I do it every time? Yep, if I am on my practice field. Nope if I'm riding in the rain on a strange road but, I'm better at it than those who don't practice at all.

 

I am certainly not infallible, far from it. I have mis-judged braking in panic situations a couple of times and locked my front wheel (rarely the rear). The good news is I was able to modulate the brakes to restore traction and accomplish my goal every time. Goal=do not hit the sucker.

 

Would I be better off with ABS? Hell, I don't know. I certainly would not rely on it to save my ass in all situations. It could probably out-perform me in certain situations, particularly those involving compromised traction conditions. For now, and the immediate future, I'll stick to situational awareness and relentless practice.

[Lawman]

"When a truck turns left in front of you & you are grabbing all the brakes you can & you are still closing at yards per nano second I would like to meet the Hot Shot that will let off the brakes to keep from wheel lock up."

 

 

+1

 

Now let's see him do it on wet pavement...

[ghaverkamp]

The skill is to manage and mitigate. It is common sense (another lacking skill of today) that infallibility is not attainable, but is it so far fetched to practice with that as a goal???

 

No. However, I just sensed some hyperbole, which often permeates talk of ABS. In particular, "[ABS] is, however, an aid that compensates for nothing other than a lack of skill." The only skill I can imagine that fits that bill is infallibility.

[Firefight911]

Although you view the statement as hyperbole, I view the statement as saying that the rider failed to manage or mitigate the situation that put him/her to the point of relying on ABS. I do not view, nor ever have, infallibility as a skill.

 

As any of this relates to wet or dry or other road surface, it truly is irrelevant what the surface is. As a rider, you have to assess the available traction and manage it accordingly.

 

This goes way back to Keith Code and his use of a one dollar bill to describe traction. You have one dollar to spend on traction. Steering requires some, braking require some, riding in a straight line requires some. If you use up all your available traction in any given scenario, you skid.

 

If the road surface is less than optimum by way of oil, gravel, water, etc. then you may only have eighty cents worth of available traction with which to turn, drive, brake, etc.

 

Traction is a cash only deal. There is no credit available. Relying on ABS, IMO, is like trying to buy traction with credit. It comes with a cost. At some point you will pay for it and when it comes time to pay . . .

[ghaverkamp]

Although you view the statement as hyperbole, I view the statement as saying that the rider failed to manage or mitigate the situation that put him/her to the point of relying on ABS. I do not view, nor ever have, infallibility as a skill.

 

Even the most skilled of riders make mistakes. It's your suggestion that ABS as an aid can only demonstrate a lack of skill, rather than work to mitigate rider error that I disagree with.

 

I think Ed (Happy Birthday!) hit on what I was getting at. It doesn't necessarily show a lack of skill to desire to have ABS, or even to have triggered ABS, unless that lacking skill is infallibility. So, if we accept that infallibility is not a skill on can have, we must accept that even the skilled will make mistakes. That's far different from relying on ABS, and I guess what I'm trying to do is prevent what often seems a conflation of the two.

 

Traction is a cash only deal. There is no credit available. Relying on ABS, IMO, is like trying to buy traction with credit. It comes with a cost. At some point you will pay for it and when it comes time to pay . . .

 

I don't disagree with this sentiment at all. Among other things, reliance upon ABS suggests to me a lack of practice in braking and a limited understanding of braking requirements.

[Firefight911]

Greg,

 

I don't think we are far apart at all. I have admitted to having my ABS kick in. This clearly shows that I made a mistake. My response to that is that I failed to manage and mitigate the situation at hand.

 

The result of these episodes has always, and always will be, for me to go practice more so I don't get into the position of relying on ABS to bail me out.

 

I also go out and practice deliberately activating ABS so I am prepared to manage and mitigate this situation.

[T__]

Here is some motorcycle real test data.. The first is not that controlled & scientific in the testing but probably close to real world riding.. Keep in mind this is an old test so doesn’t include the later BMW adaptive ABS systems.. One thing I like about the riding evaluations that Motorcycle Consumer News does & reports on are they try to be pretty honest & as accurate as they can because they don’t sell their soul to the motorcycle companies like most of the bike mags do..

 

Click Here

 

 

Here is a later motorcycle test carried out for the DOT (NHTSA).. It does include the later BMW ABS system but not the 07 non-servo system..

 

Click Here

[ericfoerster]

I suppose you've never used the fully coupled AP to shoot an ILS, even though it is installed and functioning, correct? I suppose you still fly airways instead of going /G using the 430, correct? Shoot, I don't even know if I should trust that ILS, maybe I should go back to shooting NDB apps.

 

Hmmm....I am proven wrong again

 

Working correctly or not?

 

Technology wins again

 

I taught my students to fly the airplane first and then learn the toys second.

 

I have flown with failures on the FCS WHILE ON APPROACH. Thank God I knew my rate was much too steep for the approach I was on. I really think some button pushers we having flying now would have driven right into the ground.

 

Skill saved my butt...not technology. Nice thing is I can fly direct and or by the airway system. I can also still fly a sweet NDB approach if needed.

[David]

I can also still fly a sweet NDB approach if needed.

 

Well, I have to say that there is no such thing as a sweet NDB approach.

[ericfoerster]

Well, I have to say that there is no such thing as a sweet NDB approach.

 

 

Well, you are correct there

[Mr Pou]

I taught my students to fly the airplane first and then learn the toys second.

 

I purposely did my IR in the "traditional" plane, two navcoms, DME, ADF, and yes, I shot a NDB on the checkride. THEN I learned the 430, KLN-94, S-Tec 55x, and the KAP140 in the other aircraft. I practice both manual and automated approaches under the hood often.

 

I can also still fly a sweet NDB approach if needed.

 

I take the 172 out now and then and fly a NDB, it is good for the flying brain.

[AviP]

IMHO, it's not just ABS but ABS working in conjunction with Telelever. Telelever prevents front end dive and allow a lot more steering. By squatting instead of diving, the bike is better balanced.

 

Of course you are always limited by the available traction. I have been to an impressive BMW motorcycle demo where they ride a non-ABS bike over 50 mph into a dead-end on a water-slick road. It crashes into hay bales as the professional rider doesn't have enough stopping space. The bike is equipped with outriggers so the rider never gets injured. Then he rides an ABS-equipped bike into the same dead-end and water-slick road numerous times executing a perfect emergency stop everytime. The final speed is almost 70mph. This demo did not involve turns.

 

ABS works and Telelever complements it wonderfully.

[LDHack]

Take an advanced rider safety course, and you'll learn several avoidance and braking skills. One includes a combination of swerving/turning and then applying brakes - in two separate but quick actions. It's a more advanced technique, but just what you are looking for. Swerve, then right the bike and brake hard, and then go back to swerve.

 

I've used it on several occasions since learning, and it's a great skill to have in your "tool bag".

 

The course taught me how to brake hard and taught me avoidance skills. Traction is the bottom line, and understanding that is part of the course. Swerving and braking at the same time is not good.

[Crank]

Man, this whole ABS conversation/debate/soiree really tired me out. Especially when you add this thread:

...more ABS

 

BUT, I read every word and gleaned what I could. A few of the comments were condescending, but I think everyone is ultimately trying to be helpful. EVERYONE that joins this forum should read these two threads.

 

Overall, I really appreciate the input.

 

I'll be in Western NC next week riding, riding, riding - dirt and street!

[motoguy128]

From about 40mph in a large parking lot I out braked by several feet my friend with a R1150R with ABS, I had a Honda CBR600F4i. We both had Michelin Pilot Sport Tires. The advantage would be that my bike weighed 150lbs less and had a lower center of gravity. In this test niether of use bothered to use the front brake.

 

A better test would be a ABS and non-ABS of the same model. But it still made a good comparison.

 

However, with varying road conditions, with a passenger and luggage on a 600lb R12RT, I'll take the ABS.

 

Either way I credit BMW with putting outstanding braking systems with or without ABS with SS braided lines from the factory.

[David]

From about 40mph in a large parking lot I out braked by several feet my friend with a R1150R with ABS, I had a Honda CBR600F4i. We both had Michelin Pilot Sport Tires. The advantage would be that my bike weighed 150lbs less and had a lower center of gravity. In this test niether of use bothered to use the front brake.

 

A better test would be a ABS and non-ABS of the same model. But it still made a good comparison.

 

However, with varying road conditions, with a passenger and luggage on a 600lb R12RT, I'll take the ABS.

 

Either way I credit BMW with putting outstanding braking systems with or without ABS with SS braided lines from the factory.

 

Do you mean you didn't bother to use the rear? Otherwise, that's not much of a test.

[motoguy128]

In MotoGP, I beleive they are using traction control. Are we sayign that the best riders in the world are unable to properly control the throttle. No, a computer is able ot respond quicker than a person and does exactly what it's programmed to do for better or worse.

 

That is exactly the point of ABS. At the point of lock-up a computer can precisely modulate the brakes better than a human as the wheel hits bumps, gravel, oil, water, etc. I've locked up the brakes on my sportbike on a greasy spot on several occasions. I never fell because i have good balance on 2 wheels, but I can't guarantee that I won't with the tall seat and added weight of the RT. I almost fell over yesterday when setting my foot on some smooth greasy pavement at a stoplight. IT didn't even look greasy, but was still slicker than I thought.

 

IN my first 300miles, I hav not yet used my ABS that I am aware of... but I love having it. Sounds weird.