Shaking and a Stuttering?

[matthew]

Hello all,

I just bought (and drove home to Michigan from Colorado) a 2002 RT with 10,000 miles on it. This is the second RT I've had, the first being a 97 RT. After my initial exultation at driving, upon returning home, I began to notice at slower speeds an awkward characteristic that worries me. Frankly, I don't know if this is a quality of all Boxers, but I thought I'd ask here to get some feedback. The issue? At slower speeds it bucks back and forth subtly--but noticeably.

I called the owner and he said that the valves had just been adjusted and that he had noticed it, but viewed it as a quality of the Boxer that one just gets used to.

 

My question: can anything be done about this subtle, yet annoying, buck back and forth? It hasn't gotten worse.

 

Oh, he also suggests I replace the plugs.

 

This bike performed flawlessly, btw, on all 1200 miles I put on it in the first two days. Actually, I think I may be up to 1800.

 

Any thoughts?

 

~Matthew

p.s. did they fix this problem in the new model--the 1200?

 

Thanks.

[Sidmariner]

DON'T PANIC! All will be well!

 

Same bike...same experience on the ride home, but after a throttle synch, tune up, fresh gas, and addition of a Techlusion Unit my bike is now purring.

 

You'll be amazed how a .1 volt adjustment on a Techlusion unit can turn a bucking bronc into a winning racehorse.

[Mark K]

When you say slower speeds, do you mean running in gear? Below 3000 RPMs? If so, that could be normal drive lash; but try not to go there. A throttle opening close to zero seems to confuse these bikes (as you probably know).

 

Try to keep the RPMs up, but an anal throttle body sync couldn't hurt.

[Ken H.]

What you are describing is the classic symptoms of surging. Do a search on the term here for back, oh say, two years. You will find hours and hours of enjoyable reading on the subject.

[T__]

Hello all,

I just bought (and drove home to Michigan from Colorado) a 2002 RT with 10,000 miles on it. This is the second RT I've had, the first being a 97 RT. After my initial exultation at driving, upon returning home, I began to notice at slower speeds an awkward characteristic that worries me. Frankly, I don't know if this is a quality of all Boxers, but I thought I'd ask here to get some feedback. The issue? At slower speeds it bucks back and forth subtly--but noticeably.

I called the owner and he said that the valves had just been adjusted and that he had noticed it, but viewed it as a quality of the Boxer that one just gets used to.

 

My question: can anything be done about this subtle, yet annoying, buck back and forth? It hasn't gotten worse.

 

Oh, he also suggests I replace the plugs.

 

This bike performed flawlessly, btw, on all 1200 miles I put on it in the first two days. Actually, I think I may be up to 1800.

 

Any thoughts?

 

~Matthew

p.s. did they fix this problem in the new model--the 1200?

 

Thanks.

 

Matthew, that does sound like the common BMW oil head surge.. As Ken said there are many queries in the archives on that problem.. It is basically due to the lean running condition of the engine to meet emission regulations.. The 1100/1150 2 cylinder BMW is an older design engine that doesn’t do very well at the lean running fuel air ratio needed to work with the catalytic converter..

 

There are MANY things you can do to TRY to alleviate the surge & some will mitigate it a little but for total or (most) removal it will take an aftermarket fuel controller like the Techlusion 259 or Power Commander.. You will need to richen the fuel air mixture to richer than the factory 14.7:1 in the surging range to get most of the surging out..

 

One thing you can easily try is to pull the CCP (Cat Converter code plug).. The pink relay looking thing from the fuse box.. Then pull the Fueling computer fuse (fuse 4 or 5 ) for about 30 seconds,, then reinstall the fuse,, turn the ign switch on (don’t start the bike) then FULLY open & close the throttle a couple of times (that will re-train the computer).. That will usually remove some of the surging but will effect the crisp runability in the upper RPM ranges (worth a try to see if the surge will then be livable for you)..

 

Obviously you can do a TBI balance (at both idle & up through the throttle range) & install new spark plugs.. While that won’t hurt & if grossly off can effect the engine runability I doubt it will be the answer..

 

I have worked on more than a few 1150’s for that surge & so far the only real cure has been a fuel controller..

 

You might just try riding the bike a while as a lot of people seem to not be bothered by the surge after riding a while (I think after a while you learn to ride quickly through & around the surging RPM range so eventually it is a non issue).. If you are like me & very sensitive to the surging I doubt anything short of an aftermarket fuel controller will make you happy..

 

Maybe your bike is worse than most at the moment so run a couple of tanks of fuel through it to see if you are fighting bad gasoline.. Then try a very precise TBI balance (lots of info here on that).. Try NEW spark plugs also.. Maybe that will be enough to make you happy.. If not, try the CCP removal.. If still not happy try the Techlusion 259 fuel controller (I’m sold on those for smoothing out the 1150 BMW boxer engine).. If set up correctly you won’t have to keep it above X or Y RPM’s to make it pull cleanly or surge free like some people say & you won’t have to ride it like you stole it to get it to operate without bucking.. My personal 1150 will pull CLEANLY in 6th gear from 1000 RPM to red line RPM with no surging, bucking, pinging, or problems.. It won’t do it at 1000 RPM in 6th gear with much pulling power but will pull cleanly from idle all the way to top speed..

 

Hang around this site a while & do your homework & you will have the bike operating the way you want..

 

Twisty

[matthew]

Thanks for your responses. I'm not sure if it's actually surging--it seems fairly consistent in the power department, it just sort of shakes subtly forward and backward unless I'm going fast, and even then it may be doing it, but it is minimized by increased air and road chatter.

 

Having just purchased it, I am not attracted to, though not against, buying a fuel controller. If I unplug the CAT will I be able to reset it to the way it was later?

 

Thanks again,

Matthew

[AndyS]

Thanks for your responses.... If I unplug the CAT will I be able to reset it to the way it was later?

Thanks again,

Matthew

Why do you want to unplug the cat?

I would seriously follow the many steps advised in this forum, working along the lines of the cheapest keeping the bike as standard as possible first, then move to more radical.

But for the cost of a really good service/set up, you have little to lose!

Andy

Andy

[T__]

Thanks for your responses. I'm not sure if it's actually surging--it seems fairly consistent in the power department, it just sort of shakes subtly forward and backward unless I'm going fast, and even then it may be doing it, but it is minimized by increased air and road chatter.

 

Having just purchased it, I am not attracted to, though not against, buying a fuel controller. If I unplug the CAT will I be able to reset it to the way it was later?

 

Thanks again,

Matthew

 

 

Matthew, I guess we first must determine if what you are feeling is actually surging or maybe suspension related bike pitch, or road induced ride problems, or even wind related?

 

If the shaking forward & backward is there in the lower gears with the throttle HELD STEADY & RPM between 2000 & 3500 then probably engine surging.. It isn’t quick but more of an even slight speeding up & slowing down as you cruise along.. If it goes away when you change throttle position (like twist the throttle slightly either on or off) that also points to surging..

 

If it has more to do with the type of road you ride on & gets worse on roads with dips or humps then you are more than likely looking at bike ride or suspension issues.. Get your owners manual out & look at how to adjust the rear spring preload & shock control..

 

It’s also possible you are looking at a wind induced fluctuation due to windshield setting or air flow on the font end (more of a higher speed thing & not throttle or road sensitive)..

 

OK, now to answer your question on removing the Pink CCP from the fuse box.. YES, you can just pop it back in then do a computer reset procedure (pull Motronic fuse 30 sec, fuse back in, key on, no start, cycle throttle twice).. Keep in mind on the 1150 BMW that pulling that CCP is more of a testing thing to see if that alters your problem.. On the 1100 leaving that CCP out was a positive gain but the 1150 uses a pretty ragged base fuel/timing map so while it usually helps the surging region of engine operation it can make engine operation kind of dead & lethargic in some of the upper operating ranges.. Some people just leave it out & don’t notice the altered operation at high RPM’s & others don’t even notice the surge to begin with so it is a non issue..

 

I guess first you have to determine if your complaint is engine surge or something else.. Can you try to explain it to us in a different way? Maybe tell us exactly what you feel, at what road speed, at what RPM, in what gear, at what road condition? Where do you feel it? In your body, your hands, your head, etc? Is it there ONLY at steady throttle operation & go away as you change throttle position? I guess we just assume engine surge as so many of the 1150’s have that problem..

 

Twisty

[Sidmariner]

Matthew, your description of rocking back and forth is identical to my experience. If you find it gets bad when you try to roll off the throttle, and really bad if you try to roll off slowly, then you have a condition easily corrected by a Techlusion unit.

 

Twisty is the guru on these matters and I've followed his advice to a happy resolution of my RT surging issues. As I mentioned earlier though, a .1 volt adjustment and a few weeks of tweaking with the unit were needed to find the sweet spot...and sweet it is.

 

I found my Techlusion on eBay for $100. They do come up in the IBMWR Classifieds and elsewhere from time to time. Knowing what I know now though, I wouldn't hesitate to pay full price for a unit.

[Nevets]

Matthew - Where about in Michigan are you? Would you be interested in attending a TechDaze in West MI late this summer or early this fall?

 

Follow the advice of others here and you'll find you have one fine bike...congrat's

[matthew]

Hi, thanks for the clarifying questions.

 

I assumed at first that the slight stuttering forward and backward was interference or chatter created by wind on the faring (sp?) and/or windshield, however, I now notice that it's pretty much all the time.

 

I generally feel it more at slower speeds even at higher idle--4000+; I also believe I can feel it at higher speeds, though it's not as noticeable. To try to explain it a different way, I might say this: there is an inconsistency in my forward momentum, even though the engine idle sounds perfectly smooth. As I cruise along at a certain speed, it leaps forward a tiny bit, and then pulls back a bit, as if it couldn't make up its mind. The idle is very smooth while this happens. I guess I feel it in my body--the surge.

 

I didn't want to describe it as a surge, as that would imply only an increased acceleration or engine speed. Mine increases, then decreases so I thought it better to describe it as a stutter.

 

I'd definately be interested in attending a TechDay later in the summer.

Thanks for the offer.

Oh, I'm in Nothern Michigan--Petoskey.

Anyone live around here?

 

Thanks again for the help.

 

Matthew

[matthew]

That's be Great!

~Matthew

[matthew]

One last question: will I be able to fix this problem? I'm not sure I can live with it.

 

Thanks,

Matthew

[Nevets]

Matthew - Check your messages (PM) about the TechDaze in Michigan...

[T__]

One last question: will I be able to fix this problem? I'm not sure I can live with it.

 

Thanks,

Matthew

 

Matthew, yes more than likely it is very fixable (repairable).. Problem is: we have to figure out over the internet what exactly you are dealing with..

 

It does sound like the classic engine surge-- accelerate a little, drop back a little, accelerate a little, drop back a little-- at steady state throttle (lower gears are usually worse)..

 

If it is the BMW surge then it is removable.. Maybe without too much work..

 

Try the Pink CCP removal (with a computer reset).. Only takes a few minutes- then see if that effects what you feel (probably won’t remove it all but might change it enough to allow you verify that is what you are fighting with).. If that helps you can TRY many of the tuning tricks that others have posted on other threads.. When that doesn’t make you happy you can go the Techlusion route..

 

I have removed the surge on more than a few 1150’s now & in all cases the Techlusion has done the trick.. It will take a little fooling with the settings to get the surge out (if that is what you are fighting with) & keep decent fuel mileage.. Actually real easy to set it to kill the surge but a little more difficult to kill the surge & not also kill your fuel economy (it can be done as I have the surge killed in my 1150 & have gotten most if not all of my fuel economy back..

 

Twisty

[matthew]

Twisty,

How much worse is your fuel economy, in your opinion? I assume it's worth it?

 

Can someone who is good with his hands but who possesses little mechanical experience do the Techlusion installation themselves?

 

Thanks again for your guidance.

 

~Matthew

[T__]

Twisty,

How much worse is your fuel economy, in your opinion? I assume it's worth it?

 

Can someone who is good with his hands but who possesses little mechanical experience do the Techlusion installation themselves?

 

Thanks again for your guidance.

 

~Matthew

 

Matthew, on the mileage issue? It’s really difficult to tell exactly as I live in Michigan & as you know our traffic on the freeways can run from stop & go to 90+ mph.. My riding speed, weather, & aggressiveness varies from day to day ride to ride.. Basically when I first bought the bike the fuel mileage ran from the low 40mpg to the high 40 mpg range depending on the length of the trip, type of roads ridden, & speeds ridden at.. After the first installation of the Techlusion the fuel mileage dropped to the high 30 mpg’s to low 40 mpg’s (again no back to back same road or same conditions real evaluative miles per gallon taken).. I did figure most fill ups that took more than 3 gallons though.. Most times it ran in the low 40 mpg area.. I do watch my mpg but because of the type of riding I do & am a fairly aggressive rider it is difficult to get clean back to back comparisons.. Tweaking on the Techlusion settings has returned the fuel mileage to the mid to high 40 mpg range on most fill ups with a couple of fill ups getting into the low 50mpg range (long back road trips)... I can’t give you hard data on the difference between pre Techlusion & post Techlusion but the drop after the Techlusion was enough to be noted.. After tweaking on the Techlusion settings I feel the mileage is close to where it was before the Techlusion install.. There seems to be a fine line between good runability & not losing some miles per gallon..

 

One way to look at it is: the BMW factory controlled cruising fuel air ratio is 14.7:1 (or pretty darn close to that).. That is for best fuel mileage with optimum operation of the catalytic converter.. As a rule best fuel economy comes in the high 13:1 to low 14:1 fuel/air ratio range.. So there is the possibility of obtaining slightly better fuel mileage if the Techlusion is adjusted correctly.. The trade off seems to be there are some other Techlusion settings that enhance clean acceleration & higher top speed.. Those can be turned off but that is difficult after getting the engine to perform good..

 

Now on installing it yourself? Not difficult at all but you will have to remove the R/H Tupperware.. Basically it hooks to the battery,, you unplug the R/H fuel injector connector from the injector & plug the Techlusion in between that plug & the injector,, the 02 sensor wire is then unplugged then the Techlusion is plugged in between the 02 & the removed connector (this probably will be the most difficult part as the fuel tank rear attachment will probably have to be removed & the tank lifted up to access the 02 connector..

 

A good time to install the Techlusion is at service that requires the Tupperware to be removed (like the annual brake bleed)..

 

This would also be a good project for the tec dayz event..

 

Twisty

[matthew]

Twisty, where are you living?

It sounds like I should do the following before I get into the Techclusion: 1. valve adjustment myself; 2. throttle body synch (need to by the TwinMax).

 

You downstate? (I'm in Petoskey).

 

Matthew

[T__]

Twisty, where are you living?

It sounds like I should do the following before I get into the Techclusion: 1. valve adjustment myself; 2. throttle body synch (need to by the TwinMax).

 

You downstate? (I'm in Petoskey).

 

Matthew

 

 

Matthew, yes definitely check the valves, & do both an idle & off idle TBI balance.. I my experience that won’t cure the surge but could help & should be checked on your (new to you) bike anyhow.. Do the obvious & easy things first, then if still unhappy go the fuel controller route..

 

Try pulling that CCP also as that can show you if you are on teh right track.. (see pix)

 

You don’t need a TwinMax or the like.. All you need is a simple liquid filled U tube type homemade manometer.. In a way they are actually better than the TwinMax as using a water filled Delta type set up is more accurate than the TwinMax..

The TwinMax is great for the shop environment as it is easy to store & set up & looks impressive to the customers but simple inches of water is VERY accurate due to very fine resolution..

 

Another great thing to do at the Tec Dayz..

 

I am in mid down state (Brighton/Milford area).. Not sure when but I will be at Higgins Lake area sometime in the next few weeks..

 

 

Twisty

[jojo]

When that doesn’t make you happy you can go the Techlusion route..

I too am experiencing this type of surging on my '04RT and I am thinking of getting a techlusion but I'm a bit confused with the different types of Techlusion for the RT. I understand that the GEN III is the latest and greatest of the line but what is the difference between the 1031/1032 and the 1332ST (apart from the price)? which one would be recommended? and where the best place to order from?

[T__]

When that doesn’t make you happy you can go the Techlusion route..

I too am experiencing this type of surging on my '04RT and I am thinking of getting a techlusion but I'm a bit confused with the different types of Techlusion for the RT. I understand that the GEN III is the latest and greatest of the line but what is the difference between the 1031/1032 and the 1332ST (apart from the price)? which one would be recommended? and where the best place to order from?

 

George, your 04 should be a twin spark plug model (at least here in the states they are).. If your bike is a twin spark model it shouldn’t need the Techlusion.. That double spark plug was put in place to allow those large piston engines to run without surging at the lean emission era fuel/air ratios.. Haven’t heard of any surging problems on the twin spark 1150..

 

If you have the twin spark bike that is surging I would look for some sort of malfunction like faulty stick coils, or a gross TBI imbalance, or failed 02 sensor, or sensor failure, or even a simple spark plug issue..

 

I’m not an 1150 twin spark owner so will hope someone that is very familiar with the twin spark operation will chime in here & help you with other things that could be causing your surging..

 

Twisty

[jojo]

Hi Twisty, I know that the twin sparks shouldn't be surging but mine always did. even after a thourough TBS/rocker adjustment, new plugs, air leak check..you name it.

It stutters at steady speed around 3500rpm and the bike has some hesitations when asked for high torque & power

(like when opening the throttle quickly)

a bad coil could effectively be the culprit but apart from getting a new one (pricy ) there is no real way to find out

[AndyS]

George, like twisty says, the 1150 twin spark resolved the surging issue, however if you think you have it, I would have a little peek at your secondary coil/spark plugs. If these have ceased working correctly you are effectively riding a single spark model. If the stick coil has failed it feels very differnt to surging - in fact it feels really horrible just like fuel starvation - with the bike 'missing' at low revs light load, and high reve high load.

Andy

[T__]

George, like I said I am not a twin spark expert (there are a few on this board that are though).. I would think you could short out your primary plugs (one at a time) to see if that cylinder will still run on the secondary stick coils & plugs).. I don’t recommend just pulling the primary plug wire off the spark plug as that can cause internal arcing in your primary coil but would suggest you make up a small short plug wire extension to install between your primary spark plug & plug wire then use a grounded wire to short that plug wire extension to ground (that will effectively kill the spark to that plug but not hurt your coil & that will still allow the other side to function normally)

 

Twisty

[jojo]

Thanks guys....Will try!

sorry if I momentarily hijacked this thread

[Ken H.]

has some hesitations when asked for high torque & power

(like when opening the throttle quickly)

This is not the classic defined "surge" then. Surge manifest itself as hunting at a steady throttle only. You've got something else going on, that I suspect a aftermarket controller will not fix.