Virginia is out of control

[harleyjohn45]

Here's the complete list of infractions that are subject to the "remedial fee", along with the dollar amount of the annual fee imposed:

 

http://www.thenewspaper.com/rlc/docs/2007/va-drivertax.pdf

 

In the summary document, it is stated that the remedial fee does not apply to speeding, with the exeption of 80+ MPH or 20+ MPH over posted speed. Yet, the offense of "driving too fast for conditions carries a $350/yr fee for a misdemeanor, or $1000/yr for a felony conviction.

 

 

 

all i can say is "happy days are here again".

[Jim VonBaden]

http://www.vatrafficlaw.com/reckless.html

 

§ 46.2-857. Driving two abreast in a single lane - A person shall be guilty of reckless driving who drives any motor vehicle, including any motorcycle, so as to be abreast of another vehicle in a lane designed for one vehicle, or drives any motor vehicle, including any motorcycle, so as to travel abreast of any other vehicle traveling in a lane designed for one vehicle.

 

Interestingly, the local motors do this all the time.

 

Jim

[GoGo Gadget]

I guess it's all a matter of perspective, depending upon one's relationship with said equity.

 

Wouldn't proportional fines make everyones relationship to said equity equal?

Cool idea...means testing for violations.

 

Porportional to what?

 

Would drivers file a net worth statment when they get a license? Would they have to be audited? Can we base it on the value of the vehicle involved in the violation? Would a driver who can afford the payment on a new Z06 pay purchased with zero down pay as much as the Z06 owner who paid cash? Would I get to claim dependents? How about the rich violator who gives a lot to charity, does he get a break?

 

If the 2 Z06s mentioned above, one driven by person with no net worth and one driven by a person with $1 million net worth, both blow a stop sign and each kill a pedestrian. Which pedestrian is more dead? The one killed by the rich guy? Or the poor guy?

 

You would not file anything when you get licensed. We don't want to know what your worth was when you were 16. It could be a simple system, set up a link to the IRS computers and the courts will let you know what your fine is when you call in to pay.

 

as far as which pedestrian is more dead? Check with the civil suits that follow afterwards and let me know which jury awarded more compensation and you will have your answer.

[GoGo Gadget]

I guess it's all a matter of perspective, depending upon one's relationship with said equity.

 

Wouldn't proportional fines make everyones relationship to said equity equal?

 

That depends on which side of the equity one finds themselves. The "recipient" might, obviously, be exuberent, whereas the "contributor" may not share that sentiment.

 

In a financial penalty scheme, there are taker's and takee's. One cannot be punished without creating a gain for another. <<<--- A subtle hint can be found here ---<<<

 

We are talking about two separate issues here. One is the penalty associated with wrongdoing, and the other is tax. With penalties, the gain to the state is incidental to the process, it is not the goal. The goal is to punish wrong doers, and encourage compliance with our laws. With tax, obviously the goal is to generate revenue since the state does not produce a product to sell, they have to extort money from their constituents.

 

In one case it is proportional, so why not the other?

[ShovelStrokeEd]

I have thus far avoided getting into this discussion but, in the interest of stirring the pot, I really don't see very much wrong with what VA is doing.

 

Yeah, the concept of increasing revenue instead of promoting safety is a somewhat abhorrent one to me but, none of the violations I see quoted are a matter of anything but choice on the part of the violator.

 

No one grabbed the throttle and forced them to go 20+ over. No one caused them to go through the traffic control device and cause an accident. No one held them down and poured booze down their throat until their BAC was .15 and then forced them at gunpoint to operate a motor vehicle.

 

They made a choice to do these things. They should cough up the penalty. It really doesn't matter where the money goes or whether or not the offender can afford the "cost of doing business with the government". Do the crime, do the time. I actually like the idea that the fees are not subject to mitigation.

 

I do speed and even, on occasion, could be accused of "felony speed". I'm not a resident of VA so the fee structure would not impact me. Were Florida to implement a similar plan, I would be in favor of it. Although, to tell the truth, it would probably bite me in the a$$ at some time or other.

[BamaRider]

I don't have a problem with Va doin this, (they say its a revenue thing up front) I don't LIVE there, and since they grant me tax exempt status when I pass through, I guess I don't have anything to fuss about.

 

Because I'm tax exempt it will be business as usual for ME, when I'm I-81. I can handle a 180 fine, but 1300 would slow me down to 65. And if the locals think its OK to grant me a exemption to the 1300 fine, you won't hear a peep outta me.

 

But a law that treats out of state folks different than locals would NEVER fly in Alabama.

 

John- you never did answer my question if you think taxes in Va are too low. I'm gonna assume yes from your earlier post on lamenting the spineless politicians who wont vote for a tax increase.

[John in VA]

I don't have a problem with Va doin this, (they say its a revenue thing up front) I don't LIVE there, and since they grant me tax exempt status when I pass through, I guess I don't have anything to fuss about.

 

It's not a tax, so you are not tax exempt. It's a penalty fee. Big difference. It's based entirely on VA drivers' license points accrued. VA cannot assess a fee on out-of-state license points.

 

John- you never did answer my question if you think taxes in Va are too low. I'm gonna assume yes from your earlier post on lamenting the spineless politicians who wont vote for a tax increase.

 

I didn't answer your "question" about whether I "think taxes in VA are too low" because it's a loaded political slogan. From your question, I assume you don't want to pay any taxes at all and would rather that everybody else pay for the roads, police, firefighters and other public services you use, etc., etc.?

 

But since you insist on asking: As USA states go, VA is a comparatively wealthy state overall, with many high-tech firms. VA has among the best public universities in the USA -- that are an absolute bargain, and VA has comparatively low taxes generally for its wealth, so it attracts business. It is generally well-run, especially after Mark Warner cleaned up the massive debt left by the preceding "anti-tax" GOP governor who played a shell-game and raided and starved the transportation infrastructure. Warner (a non-spineless politician) cut food and income taxes while raising sales and cigarette taxes (which were something like 2c a pack), and did a lot for needed transportation statewide, especially in No VA.

 

My county of Arlington is very well-run, with very little crime and top public schools and services. County property taxes are the lowest in the DC Metro area. Congestion is moderate compared to the outer suburbs. Anyway, I don't feel overtaxed by VA or by Arlington Co.

 

So, do I feel "undertaxed" or "overtaxed" by VA for the public services I enjoy? No to both. Hope that answers your question.

[BamaRider]

Well they are taxing the just right amount I guess so that means-

 

If they offered you a reduction in property taxes you would turn it down?

[Beemr69]

Well I guess the arguements revenue vs. safety are long past , and to think I was correct the whole time

[Wyn]

I'll whine and the reason I'll whine is because the punishment is not reasonable for the crime. It's extreme and unjust..

 

Yeah, but I'll bet you obey the law in Virginia. I'll bet a lot of other folks do to.

 

 

 

ISYHTRAH

[John Ranalletta]

You would not file anything when you get licensed. We don't want to know what your worth was when you were 16. It could be a simple system, set up a link to the IRS computers and the courts will let you know what your fine is when you call in to pay.

 

as far as which pedestrian is more dead? Check with the civil suits that follow afterwards and let me know which jury awarded more compensation and you will have your answer.

 

The propensity of juries to make larger awards when the defendent is wealthy is not an indication of equity. Your rationale aligns with Marx. It just uses traffic penalties to redistribute income instead of income taxes or outright confiscation.

[Steve_Witmer]

Yes. 20+ over is automatic Reckless driving. No leeway unless the officer is willing to reduce the speed. You can go w/o an attorney, but you're going to loose.

 

Actually, in Virginia either 20 over or 80 mph is statutory reckless driving, so you can be ticketed for reckless driving for being 15 over the limit in a 65 mph zone.

 

As for the assertion that you are going to lose without a lawyer, that's nonsense. Whether you have a lawyer or not, much depends on your driving record (which as a matter of practice a Virginia LEO will almost always have pulled for the judge before your court date) and your attitude. If you have a bad record or accuse the LEO of lying about your speed (when he was relying on radar) you won't fare so well, even with a lawyer. If you have an appropriately apologetic attitude and a good record, many judges reduce the offense to either improper driving or speeding, whether or not you have a lawyer.

 

If you are riding 100 mph in Virginia, you have pretty fair odds of wearing a set of pretty metal bracelets on your way to the magistrate's office. Your odds might be slightly better on a touring bike with full protective gear and a positive attitude, and probably get a lot worse for you with a passenger, if you are young and on a race-replica, or if you are on a HD with a sticker on your half-helmet that says, "Bad cop -- No donut."

[truckdogg4]

The Civil Remendy fee only applies to residents of Virginia. Not out of state people,

[Juan_in_a_million]

First offense 30 days in jail mandatory and 6 months suspension plus mandatory drug treatment series paid for by the violator. 2nd offense 90 days in jail and 2 years suspension. 3rd offense should be a felony with a minimum 1 year in jail, big fines and suspension for 5 years. Any of these offenses in connection with an accident or injury should get heavy prison time. /rant

 

I have a better idea: First offense, send them to Guantanamo bay. Second offense (if they ever get out of Guantanamo) send them to one of the illegal prisons in Pakistan or any other ....stan ended countries.

 

With all due respect, I think you went a little bit too far. I understand that, if somebody has lost a relative or dear friend, because of a drunk driver, that person may feel that way. However things are not just black or white but there are many tones of grey in the middle. There is, again, the legal definition of DUI and there are drunk drivers. I believe that distinctions should be made.

 

Let me say in advance that I do not drink at all (other than water or soda) but I heard recently a true story about a PA lawmaker who push a great deal to make DUI laws and underage drinking laws in PA about the toughest in the country.

Last year, or two years ago (I don't know exactly) his son was arrested for DUI. When he realized the penalties that his son was facing he said to the prosecutor "who the h... passed this stupid law?" You did, sir - the prosecutor answered.

 

The moral of the story is that everything depends on what side of the fence you are at any specific moment.

 

Also, I don't want to open a can of worms here but, there should be similar penalties to those for DUI for people talking on the phone while driving.

 

As I rider, those unnerve me more than the DUIs, among other things, because I can distinguish those and not the ones that are barely of the legal limit of alcohol.

 

Cheers.

[John in VA]

[The moral of the story is that everything depends on what side of the fence you are at any specific moment.

 

That legislator's son chose to drink and chose to get behind the wheel to become a menace wielding a 3000 pound weapon. Would the legislator cry crocodile tears for his son if he'd killed a family or two on the road?

[DaveTheAffable]

Look bros, I don't want to start another ticket/revenue thread....

 

114 posts... and like the energizer bunny... it keeps going, and going...

[UberXY]

Update: the fools who wrote this bill have been alarmed at the public reaction to their sneaky deeds, and yesterday announced that it must have been a "drafting error" in the bill making process. Right, that sounds very credible, as if. So they are now backing off, though at least one, Rust (R-Fairfax) has the honesty to say he still backs it.

 

Several private legal groups, both conservative and liberal, are preparing to challenge the bill, including Rutherford Institute

 

No one ought to feel Virginia is a crappy place to live. This was just a cowardly mistake by some guys who run on a single issue platform, and people who refuse to see the big picture often do retarded things.

 

BTW, one of the reasons these penalties are "user fees" instead of fines, is that use fees go into the general budget, but fines go to the Literary Fund, and the kind of people who think up these ridiculous ideas certainly don't want more people to learn to read as it might endanger their job security.

[BamaRider]

Thanks for that update Steve. I never thought Va was crappy place to live (born in Norfolk!) they just seem to tax the producers too much in my eye.

 

I'm glad to see the citizens didn't take this lying down, and rose up.

[Les is more]

This was posted by Digtlartst in Ride well--thought I'd move it here.

 

VA GOP Lawmakers to Reassess Fees for Driving Infractions After Outcry

 

RICHMOND, July 12 -- Virginia Republican leaders, faced with growing opposition to the "abusive driver" fees that went into effect July 1, said Thursday that they will consider scrapping some of them when the General Assembly convenes in January.

 

...Because of what legislators call an "error" and a "mistake," the fees also can be assessed on motorists who are convicted of less serious offenses. The surcharges did not receive much attention when lawmakers approved them Feb. 24., but the reaction has been overwhelmingly negative since Virginia residents learned about the fees this month.

 

"As a part-time legislature, we will make mistakes, and we will have to correct them," said House Majority Leader H. Morgan Griffith (R-Salem), who wants to revisit which misdemeanors the fees cover.

 

=========

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/12/AR2007071202054.html

[UberXY]

I will add that as per the Virginia Constitution, all fines (but not fees) collected by the state are used only for our education system, with the one exception of fines and seizures made in marijuana cases, which go to law enforcement.

[steve.foote]

I will add that as per the Virginia Constitution, all fines (but not fees) collected by the state are used only for our education system, with the one exception of fines and seizures made in marijuana cases, which go to law enforcement.

 

Wouldn't it be funny if we found out that as contributions from fines to the education budget rose, traditional education funding was cut and spent elsewhere? I'm sure it hasn't happened, but wouldn't it be funny?

[DaveTheAffable]

I will add that as per the Virginia Constitution, all fines (but not fees) collected by the state are used only for our education system, with the one exception of fines and seizures made in marijuana cases, which go to law enforcement.

 

Maybe increase in fees is supposed to yield increase in intelligence?

Evidently they haven't collected enough, or all the legislators were educated out of state.

[RussL]

This was posted by Digtlartst in Ride well--thought I'd move it here.

 

VA GOP Lawmakers to Reassess Fees for Driving Infractions After Outcry

 

RICHMOND, July 12 -- Virginia Republican leaders, faced with growing opposition to the "abusive driver" fees that went into effect July 1, said Thursday that they will consider scrapping some of them when the General Assembly convenes in January.

 

...Because of what legislators call an "error" and a "mistake," the fees also can be assessed on motorists who are convicted of less serious offenses. The surcharges did not receive much attention when lawmakers approved them Feb. 24., but the reaction has been overwhelmingly negative since Virginia residents learned about the fees this month.

 

"As a part-time legislature, we will make mistakes, and we will have to correct them," said House Majority Leader H. Morgan Griffith (R-Salem), who wants to revisit which misdemeanors the fees cover.

 

=========

 

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/12/AR2007071202054.html

It's about time the people of Virginia raised hell about this matter. The whole point of my first post was that these fees were tacked onto a bill by a delegate whose personal law firm stood a lot to gain. Not only is that conflict of interest, but just the lowest form of political behavior in my book.

[grayghost]

NJ has had this sort of system for years, I'm not sure of all the violations that apply and they call it a "surcharge" for example DUI 1st offense has a $3000 surcharge, payable in installments, in addition to a license revocation and fine.

[GoGo Gadget]

The whole point of my first post was that these fees were tacked onto a bill by a delegate whose personal law firm stood a lot to gain.

 

 

That is the norm for almost every politician out there. Whatever there background is, they will pass laws to benefit that entity. The state legislators are part time politicians. The business owners pass laws to benefit small business. The school teachers try to get raises for the teachers and more education funding. The doctors pass laws reducing the ability to sue for malpractice. The lawyers just pass a ton of obscure laws so that nobody knows what the hell is going on and you need a lawyer to tell you.

[ShovelStrokeEd]

Well, I just did about 300 miles I-81 Northbound from the intersection of I-77 to the W. Va border.

 

The rule has had some effect. Traffic is moving along at a snail's pace. This road has never been my favorite but this was ridiculous. The cars were backed up for 1/2 mile or more behind 2 drivers, one doing 63 and the guy in the next lane doing 64. Not once, 30 or more times. The result was a herd of cars, mixed in with some big trucks, all doing 61 or less with less than a car length between vehicles. Hate to see what is going to happen when the deer start coming out at night.

 

This has to be the most asinine law or set of rules on record. Not all the bone heads were from VA, of course, usual assortment of minivans from Ohio and PA hogging the left lane with no idea that the shiny things on the sides of the car and the center of the windscreen were for seeing what is going on behind you.

 

Here's an idea for the VA lawmakers, run the speed limit up to 75 and enforce lane discipline. Betcha your accident rate goes down. Making tail gating worse is certainly not anything like a solution.

 

Only thing I can give them is I got 42 mpg on the run, the tank before, going through NC, where speed is reasonable and drivers actually use their mirrors had me at only 36. Of course, my average speed was a lot higher and my goal is to cover ground, not stress over some idiot running 15 feet off my tail light at 65.

 

I will say this, I ain't going through VA no more, nor will I spend another dime in the state if I can help it. I haven't worked out the route yet but, even if it adds 200 miles to my trip home, I'm giving VA a pass.

[RussL]

The whole point of my first post was that these fees were tacked onto a bill by a delegate whose personal law firm stood a lot to gain.

 

 

That is the norm for almost every politician out there. Whatever there background is, they will pass laws to benefit that entity. The state legislators are part time politicians. ...... The lawyers just pass a ton of obscure laws so that nobody knows what the hell is going on and you need a lawyer to tell you.

That's exactly the reason people need to pay attention to what law makers are doing and get involved instead of being sheep.

[Jim VonBaden]

As a VA resident, I am not allowed to comment!

 

 

Jim

[Amac]

Organize "drive the minimum speed limit" Fridays. Get as many people as you can to drive at the minimum speed limit on the Interstate from noon-midnight on Fridays. It'll be an inconvenience, but will annoy the politicians and movers and shakers who are trying to get out of town so much when traffic backs up that the law should change quickly.

 

Furthermore, by driving the minimum speed limit, you're not doing anything illegal...just extending rush hour.

[velomoto]

Organize "drive the minimum speed limit" Fridays. Get as many people as you can to drive at the minimum speed limit on the Interstate from noon-midnight on Fridays. It'll be an inconvenience, but will annoy the politicians and movers and shakers who are trying to get out of town so much when traffic backs up that the law should change quickly.

 

Furthermore, by driving the minimum speed limit, you're not doing anything illegal...just extending rush hour.

Now THAT sounds like a hoot

 

Lemme make sure I have this right... If I lived in Virginia you'd want me to take out my bike on a Friday afternoon and get a bunch of people in cars & trucks pissed off at me. With a little luck I could get in front of the people who just had a beer or two after work... Then again that might be a better fate than explaining to my better half that I spent Friday evening trying to piss off people instead of a date with her.

 

Let us know how this works out!

[velomoto]

Here's an idea for the VA lawmakers, run the speed limit up to 75 and enforce lane discipline. Betcha your accident rate goes down. Making tail gating worse is certainly not anything like a solution.

Ed, from what I see out here in Colorado, where the limit on the interstate is usually 75 (slower in winding mountain sections and thru cities), the people don't drive any closer to the limit nor does this prevent or discourage tailgating. Sure there are fewer people tailgating me if I'm the fastest moving vehicle on I-25, but this also means I have to be moving well over 90 mph. At 80 mph in the left lane you'll get a pickup or SUV ten feet behind you to "encourage" you to get outta their way.

 

As for safety and accidents, I'll see wrecks pretty much every day I drive from Fort Collins into Denver. There are lotsa vehicles and/or drivers which can't or won't maintain the limit so we've got vehicles at 65 in the same two lanes as vehicles moving well over 90. Yeah, it gets exciting.

 

Traffic back-ups? Yup, these happen every day out here even with the 75 mph limits. Too many vehicles, not enough lanes, and not enough margin of safety (see comment above about accidents). Wider lanes and more highways would help for now, but that's not going to happen any time soon. Is Colorado better or worse off than Virginia? Who knows, but it certainly isn't nirvana commuting on the interstate!

[bakerzdosen]

Organize "drive the minimum speed limit" Fridays. Get as many people as you can to drive at the minimum speed limit on the Interstate from noon-midnight on Fridays. It'll be an inconvenience, but will annoy the politicians and movers and shakers who are trying to get out of town so much when traffic backs up that the law should change quickly.

 

Furthermore, by driving the minimum speed limit, you're not doing anything illegal...just extending rush hour.

I think this is the first post of yours that I agree with 100% (or more).

 

Most traffic LEO's I've known will admit that they rely on people going over the speed limit to maintain the flow of traffic (not 20 over mind you). It will be interesting to see how this plays out.

[BamaRider]

Having ridden thousands of miles in BOTH states, I'd say Colorado has it better, not even close. I like the 75 mph speed limits.

 

I'm due for east coast run in Sept, Tennessee I-81 to I-77 on the north bound run, I-66-I-81 to Marion on the southbound return. Reckon I'm gonna hafta to do something else, after reading about all that bogged down traffic, but my niece lives in Lorton.

[GoGo Gadget]

Having ridden thousands of miles in BOTH states, I'd say Colorado has it better, not even close. I like the 75 mph speed limits.

 

I'm due for east coast run in Sept, Tennessee I-81 to I-77 on the north bound run, I-66-I-81 to Marion on the southbound return. Reckon I'm gonna hafta to do something else, after reading about all that bogged down traffic, but my niece lives in Lorton.

 

Run up and down Rt29 in VA instead of I-81. It is a much nicer ride, not quite interstate highway speeds, but better views.

[RPG]

don't understand the whining. The solution is to drive the speed limit.

 

Bill, I think you're missing the point. The state (insert your state here) WANTS you to speed to collect the fees. The idea isn't to fine to punish you, it's to collect the tax.

 

Yes, the short term answer is to ride/drive the speed limit, but if everyone did that you can bet Big Bro would find another way to tax. Apparently, Federal, State, Local, Property, Food Tax, Gas Tax, Hotel Tax, etc., etc., etc., and all the other revenue collecting schemes are not enough. In Michigan alone, we're billions in the red.

[smiller]

Apparently, Federal, State, Local, Property, Food Tax, Gas Tax, Hotel Tax, etc., etc., etc., and all the other revenue collecting schemes are not enough.

Ah, but there's two ways to balance a budget...

[velomoto]

... I think you're missing the point. The state (insert your state here) WANTS you to speed to collect the fees. The idea isn't to fine to punish you, it's to collect the tax.

It really doesn't matter how many times you repeat a rumor, it simply does NOT make it fact. There's giant difference between belief and fact, an important skill in life is knowing which is which.

[RPG]

Ayn Rand, the Objectivist Philosopher often said, "A is A"

 

Translation: a thing is what it is.